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The Mirror Talks – Reflections on Narcissism #6 April 7, 2012

Posted by alwaysjan in Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
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I never could have imagined that so many people would read my 3-part series Close Encounter with a Narcissist. Or imagined how many people would leave comments detailing their own often heart-wrenching “close encounters.”

When I check my blog stats (something us bloggers obsessively do), I like to check the “search engine terms” people typed in before they were electronically dropped off at my blog’s doorstep.

In this series, The Mirror Talks – Reflections on Narcissism, I’ll use a “search term” I’ve come across as a jumping off point for a discussion. (Please read the Close Encounter with a Narcissist series first, or it’s like walking in after the movie’s started. Shhhh!)  Here goes.

Why do I Miss the Narcissist?

When a Narcissist zeros in on a new source of supply, he (or she) is on their best behavior. The Academy Award-winning performance they give has been perfected by years of being “on stage”  – in the sense that they are literally performing a role in what the rest of us call “life.” They cling to this role and rarely vary from the script. It’s worked before, and it will work again. There’s not a lot of improvisation involved. That First Impression of them is seared into your memory. They can be so endearing or (substitute appropriate adjective).

So a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) can be charming, seductive, endearing, and even appear to be compassionate and caring. But again, this is all an act calculated to disarm their victim’s defenses. Is it conscious? I don’t know. I’m not sure if they even know. But it’s what they do best. It’s how they roll. And it can seem incredibly genuine…at the time.

The article, Narcissists Often Ace Job Interviews, Study Findsilluminates how Narcissists can turn on the charm in any given situation to close the deal. It’s only later that their true colors emerge.

So when the Narcissist tires of Act 1 (Idealization) and goes to Act 2 (Devaluation & Discard aka D&D), the change in their manner towards you can leave you with a wicked case of emotional whiplash. WTF? Why did they say that? Why are they playing games with me? Why would…(fill in the blank)?

Who doesn’t want to cling to that first impression? Or memories of the “good times?” You’d like to think that they could return to being THAT person, not realizing that THAT person was only a ruse.

When I asked my sister-in-law, who was married to a Narcissist for 14 years, when her husband changed, she said (without hesitation) “the day after we married.”

During the Idealization Phase, the Narcissist is anything, no make that EVERYTHING, you want him to be. But then the novelty wears off and real life enters into the equation. The D&D begins.

I can understand those who struggle to get over a Close Encounter with a Narcissist. They want that person back. The person they thought they knew. But time travel is not possible, so there’s NO going back. You have to be able to see the Narcissist for what they were/are  – an imposter.

What makes it even more difficult to recover from such an encounter is the feeling that you’ve been duped – or played. You’re an intelligent person, but now you feel like somebody’s fool. What can I say? Do not expect any apologies or closure. You may understand what happened intellectually while you’re still hurting emotionally. It takes time. And more time. But, you CAN move on and flourish.

It’s a painful scenario, but the curtain falls after Act 3. The show’s over. Are you ready to move on?

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1. kiwigal007 - April 7, 2012

Beautifully written Jan, I hope that all is well with you? Hope to hear from you at some point soon. This is great, it explains things neatly as everything does appear to be a bit of an act. I have learnt this the hard way but I keep thinking to myself, was he a narcissist or is he also something else? I then ask myself was it me? and all these little thoughts come flooding through my mind. My blog has been really helpful in getting things out but its been a real long road for me and I just feel out of my depth at times.

Lovely to hear from you. I’m afraid I’ve been off the radar. I had to fly back home quite suddenly as my father was very ill. I arrived 5 minutes before he died on March 11th. It was all all very surreal. Currently, I have my close friend from England staying with us over my Spring Break. We met via an NPD site and have been close friends for going on 5 years now. Jan
P.S. I hope to be back blogging and reading my friends’ blogs as well. >wink<

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kiwigal007 - April 8, 2012

Hi Jan
My sincere condolences to you and your family from here. I am very sorry to hear about this and I hope that your father went peacefully. If you have the chance please drop me an email off here to my Gmail account I have been thinking of you and would have liked to have emailed you while you were away just to see how you were getting along. Ahhh so you will have to read my blog too? haha ;-) I hope you can sign up with Gmail soon. It is wonderful to hear you have a friend out from the UK spending time with you, you will have plenty of catching up to do I am sure :-) I have one friend who comes out every year from Brighton (East Sussex) who visits me and their family which is such a treat.

‘Fantastic hearing from you but once again you are in my thoughts and prayers. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Shell :-D

Kiwi,
Thank you for your kind words. I’m slowly putting one foot in front of the other. And yes, having my friend here has been a wonderful diversion. We always laugh ourselves silly. But tomorrow it’s back to school and then coming home to put her on the plane. She has her own reality to go back to. I will catch up with your blog. Thanks for being patient. Jan

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2. Catherine Sherman - April 8, 2012

Glad to see you back in the saddle, Jan. I know this has been a very difficult and sad time for you. I’m glad your good friend is there! Wish I could be, too.

Many politicians must be full-on Narcissists, too. They charm the pants off (so to speak) the voters, and then after the election, they couldn’t care less about honoring their promises. “Voter who?” they ask, at least until their next election draws near, and then they try to recapture that old magic.

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3. Tracy - April 8, 2012

Why do I Miss the Narcissist?

I don’t- exactly. Unlike your sis-in-law, my ex was charming for a few months, lovely to my two, young children, competent & caring…then the other shoe dropped, as they say…

It’s now three years since I left with my children after reaching the point I could see no other way, no way to change or to help her. A lot has happened in that time- a very busy & full life continues. But, as you say, the memory of how she initially was is so clear to me, that even now I do think back & sigh to myself, wishing it had been real.

I don’t blame anyone any more. Not her, certainly not me. I don’t feel foolish- because the “act that isn’t” is her actual reality. If anything, I feel sorry for all of us. The entire experience has changed me- the bad is that I am still hesitant to let myself become too close to anyone else, but also good because I found a strength & a sense of forgiveness I didn’t know I had in me.

Peace,

Tracy

Condolences on your & your family’s loss Jan, very sorry to hear of your father’s passing.

Thanks Tracy,
I have a friend visiting ATM from England, who also found it difficult to trust new people who came into her life after the N. It just makes you realize that everyone appears “normal” until you get to know them. As for your change in scenery…Are we talking Perth? My husband shot on the Kiwi boats for the America’s Cup years ago out of Perth. Jan

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4. CZBZ - April 9, 2012

Bless your heart, Jan! I’m so sorry to read about your father’s passing. This is such a hard time in our lives—letting our parents go.

It’s nice to know you have a dear friend staying with you. We forge such strong bonds with our cyber-friends. I hope you find some comfort and peace in the weeks to come.

Sending my love to you and your family,
CZBZ

Thanks CZBZ,
What’s funny is that I “met” my friend on an NPD site five years ago. We eventually met and she’s like the sister I never had. We had a lovely time over my Spring Break. I think it did both our spirits a world of good. So many of my “cyber-friends (I count you as one)” have been so kind. Cyber-hugs to all. :) Jan

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5. Marie - April 9, 2012

Jan, thank you so much for continuing to write about narcissism. I wrote to you in November about my ex-friend who is a somatic narcissist. When he discarded me I allowed no contact at all….blocked his number, erased his number, etc. I ran into him a few months later at the gym (on a weekend…he never goes on a weekend) and he parked next to my car. He talked to me about his latest dates and sexual details. For some reason, I was shocked that he would tell me this information. (But, of course he would….he is narcissistic). I still hadn’t dated anyone else because I was still recovering from my ordeal with him! I showed no emotion and said I had to go….I was so disgusted by him. I think I needed to see him like that.

The problem now is that my experience with him has made me so suspicious of other men…I am constantly looking for narcissistic characteristics. Some people might have some traits, but not have the disorder. Six months after this experience with him I met someone else and I think I sabatoged the relationship because I was so afraid to get hurt again. The beginning of all relationships is sweet but I couldn’t enjoy it because I worried I was at the beginning of being idealized! I caused the new guy so much frustration that he eventually broke up with me. I know that I sabatoged this relationship because of my hesitation and my constant looking for some type of narcissistic traits.

Thanks again Jan….I look forward to more posts.
Marie,

Marie,
First, I agree that it’s good to see a side of them that leaves you feeling disgusted. I’d call this the “What a Creep Factor!” For me, it was hearing that Joe had offered to be a sperm donor for a lesbian friend of mine (going on and on about the virtues of his genetics). She was SO put off by his “offering” – made in a parking lot, no less! LOL

Most people I’ve met who’ve had an experience with an N find it difficult to ever “trust” people in the same way they did before. Initially, you have a heightened awareness – a survival instinct even. You also question your ability to judge character. But with some time, you’ll be able to put things back into perspective. After such an experience though, I don’t believe anyone is ever again as trusting or believing in the natural goodness of humans. It’s the old, “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”

It’s a road of recovery best undertaken one step at a time. You WILL get there. :) Jan

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6. Tracy - April 10, 2012

Hi Jan,

Well, not exactly “in” Perth- but close enough! I take the train there frequently to go to the museum & art gallery- it’s a beautiful city…

A quick wave to Marie~ getting over an N is very difficult. My already well-honed skepticism has been multiplied by about 1000, I think…I’ve gone through the absolute of stating to myself that I will NEVER date again- to the more reasonable: I will be open to it, but I’m not going to actively persue it. That’s where I am, for now. I wish you healing.

Thanks Tracy,
From now on, I’ll think of you as “Perth Adjacent!” Yes, the whole experience does leave us wondering about the state of our fellow humans – and our ability to judge their character. But if you’re basking in that sunshine that is Western Australia, you’re bound to “warm up” to meeting someone who has that amazing quality called empathy. >wink< Always, Jan

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Tracy - April 11, 2012

If you’d have told me, only five or so years ago, that I’d end up in Oz- I would have said you were crazy. Sitting here now thinking, post- divorce, having come out, moved across the world, meeting & surviving my N, & recently becoming an AU citizen- all against tremendous odds…I guess anything is possible? Even trusting people again (well, maybe- ;)

I’m actually down Mandurah way~ as much as I love Perth, I enjoy a bit slower pace. Yeah, WA is an awesome spot to live- no arguements there. I’m an ocean-lover & live about two mins drive to aqua-clear water w/an empty beach…and two mins the other direction to our estuary & park. Bliss!

Take care & enjoy your visit. I have a UK email-pal too… T

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7. kiwigirl007 - April 10, 2012

Hi everyone from Kiwiland!
I read these comments knowing that I can get through all of this. It is two months since my N dropped a bombshell on me and told me he had rekindled a flame with a former love (an old high school girlfriend) and how after 7 years we are no longer together. It makes me sick just typing this as I was pretty unwell up until recently and as I am 13 years younger than him i wanted us to settle down together and actually have a life… which was never going to happen. It was as if everything was scripted with him, he had plans all along and I was never included. I have to take care of me now and although everything feels so surreal and hard I know I will get better. Just recently I had an angina attack and at 38 I was overwhelmed so Marie, do not let this get the better of you. I am a healthy person, exercise and all that but this got too much for my poor little heart that I know I have to really be careful in everything I do.

Tracy, I lived in Perth for a bit (Vic Park actually) :-) It is a beautiful part of Australia but unfortunately I missed my parents, friends and family. I went onto Saudi for a bit but have been back home since 2004 but hope to head abroad again after I have finished my studies… I am doing a degree by correspondence now (change of career).

Reading all these posts has given me hope and I hope and pray we can all get over these troubling people. Last night I was reading a magazine of my Mum’s (I am on holidays at the moment) and came across an article on psychopaths… the resemblance to N’s is so similar that it makes me wonder whether my N has this too and Aspergers… Yes he was a real frustrating and very hard man to work out and like many of us out there, I too fell under his spell. I just hope this old flame works him out quicker than I did as I would hate for her to go down the same path… sadly she too may end up amongst it I am afraid! :-(

Best wishes to you all,
Shell

Shell,
Thanks for much for your encouragement to others. I’ve written that Narcissists are the baby bears in the Three Little Bear Family with Mama Bear being Sociopathy and Father Bear being Psychopathy. Yes, the similarities with psychopaths can be uncanny.

My dear friend just visited from England. We originally met on an NPD forum and become best of friends. After six trips across the pond between us in less that five years, we still talk about narcissism, but are no longer the walking wounded. We’re just so grateful that there’s so much more information out there now than there was even five years ago. We can actually look back and laugh at how ridiculous both of these men were. It IS possible, but it took way more time than I ever imagined. Always, Jan

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Tracy - April 11, 2012

Hi Shell,

I was up in E. Vic not long ago (heading up to Perth via rail next week). What’s the mid-life career change? Mine was mother-turned IT geek- lol.

As you see, you will get over your N, in time. Meanwhile, forge ahead & keep reading posts like these if it helps. It did me. It felt fantastic to know that I wasn’t the only one who thought they were going crazy…it was amazing to get the reality checks that posts like these afforded (at the time I was working so hard to figure my N out). Now I know- NPD, is unfathomable…

Stay strong! :)

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kiwigirl007 - April 11, 2012

Hi Tracy
I am doing a degree in Social Science and a Diploma in Records Management and then give myself some out time and work at one of our local Primary Schools 7 hours a week. Feel free to drop me a line via my blog at http://www.helpmeamigoingcrazy.blogspot.com.au

I am still trying to get my head around everything right now but a part of me really misses the man! Maybe it was the nice part of the N that I miss… I considered him one of my best friends until the sh** hit the fan!

I certainly do feel that I was the one going crazy thats for sure. The big thing was that after he dropped his bombshell I sent a letter to both his mother and his daughter telling them how it was for me. His mother never replied but his daughter sent a nice message to my mobile promising to write soon, it was over a month ago but being a young 20 something year old, I may have to wait for that.. we are fortunately still friends so thats good.

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8. kiwigirl007 - April 11, 2012

Hi Jan
Thank you too, I have written heaps on Humble Beginnings since you had a look. I must slow down a bit though as my studies are important. The truth is I feel rather raw right now, its indescrible at times as no one really knows what I went through here in NZ as much as I did. I am really happy you have someone that you know that has been through it as I am not sure I have come across anyone yet, if I have they havent said anything.

My biggest concern is the old flame and I keep praying that he will show his ugly side at some point and she will run like the clappers! I just think that he was playing a dangerous game with me and knew exactly what he was doing. There is so much I would like to tell you off here!!

Great to hear you and your friend had a wonderful time together, I am hoping that one day after my studies have finished I can settle into a good job and do the same and travel… I am a real galloping gourmet and love to cook and travel! Gosh I hope I didnt sound like an N just then… :-) I am always mindful of that sort of thing!

Hope to hear from you soon.
Shell :-)

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9. Roz - April 21, 2012

Ive just experienced a short but intense 3 month relationship with a narcissist and it was not a nice experience. He made me feel like a complete loser and I ended up so confused. I’ve started reading all your articles and links and they are brilliant! Really making me realise that it was not me. I’m 43 and I’ve never experienced this level of narcissism before in a man – what a shock! So thank you.

Roz,
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I’m glad that what I’ve written is helping you gain some clarity. It is NOT your fault. Actually, it was NEVER about you. Narcissists do their same dance over and over. You happened to bump into him on the dance floor. When the song ends, the narcissist moves onto another person who will dance with him.

Although it’s been five years, I can still remember how utterly perplexed and distressed I felt in the aftermath. It’s hard to come to terms with the fact that someone you cared about (and thought cared about you) could so cooly and cruelly move on without so much as a backwards glance. (Geez, I’m sounding rather poetic and I haven’t even had my coffee yet! :)) Give it time. You will eventually understand that being involved with a N is ALWAYS a lost cause. Please stop by again. Always, Jan

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10. tboogie - April 27, 2012

One of the things I remember from dealing with narcissists in my past was their obsession with being unique. A narcissist I knew was obsessed with pointing out cliched things other people were saying or doing. But the ultimate irony is that the more you read about narcissists, the more you realize how all of them seem to be eerily the same. They may be unique compared to normal, sane people, but compared to other narcissists they seem to be exactly the same. When I read this article and some of the comments, it just amazes me how despite all their claims of uniqueness, by the standards of other narcissists they are often the biggest cliches of all, straight out of the textbook!

Tboogie,
I couldn’t agree more. Narcissists are truly legends in their own minds, but not in an original sense. They’re quick to co-opt others’ cleverness to pass off as their own. Since first writing about this disorder, I’ve met so many people who’ve had a close encounter with one. What’s most remarkable is not how unique they are, but how similar. As one friend said, it’s like they all took NPD 101. (And each would say that they finished top in the class!) Jan

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11. Lori - April 30, 2012

Jan, so sorry to hear about your Dad. Hope you’re feeling better and have had some time to heal.

I met the N in my life almost 2 years ago and I find it very hard sometimes to manage the anger and pain. I still see him at the gym at the class he teaches. His general attitude towards me was difficult to manage at first. For almost a year now he has given me the Silent Treatment, usually only glancing at me, and a few times saying hello. I had the fortune of seeing him with his mask off, so I assume he chooses not to speak with me because of his vulnerabilities, but I’m not sure. I chose not to adore him, fawn over him like other women, so that essentially put me in the doghouse. Please keep in mind I realize that this is blessing, it’s just hard to see the differences in treatment between how he treats me and others.

An ex-friend of mine who still wants to have a relationship with him (she dated him after I did) fawns over him, waits for him after class every night, has amped up her drive to “win him over.” I feel sorry for her even though she has dumped me as a friend for his affections. I see a woman who has allowed herself to be booty call for another man for 8 years, and now is trying to win over this narcissist who not worth it. I am thankful this is not me.

I also see a lot of women at the N’s class getting hit on by the him. When I see him interacting with them, trying to hug them or talk to them, I see things I never noticed before, in part because I was jealous in wanting him back, but also because I now see him for the imposter he really is. These women are put off by his aggressive attempts to get close to them, and some of them have verbalized as much to me and others in class. I don’t tell them of my prior relationship with him, but I smile inside knowing that so many more women are smart enough to listen to the “creep button” going off in their head and move away from him. I used to see this attractive, middle-aged man, young-looking and fit, very confident. Now, I see a 50 year-old man with lots of gray, balding in back, chasing after woman half his age and some older, but they ARE NOT interested in him. He most likely is not aware how turned off these woman are by his advances, but I know because I see it and hear it from the women themselves. They talk about “how creepy” he is, or ask, “is he always like this?”. So, his days are numbered in a sense and things will eventually catch up in a cruel way for him. Gone are the days when he can have any woman he wants (if those days even really existed). What I find humorous is the one person that wants him (my ex-friend) will eventually be his only choice, but he doesn’t want her.

So, by leaving the N in your life, you will have to endure some pain and definitely grow more for the better. Stay strong, as closure isn’t likely. But do know that life does have a nasty way of working on even these untouchable creatures. I have seen it and now realize how much better my life is without him in it.

Hi Lori,
I remember your story from earlier comments. Yes, it’s almost comical once you know how barren their true emotional life is to watch them go through the motions. UGH! My “friend” loved flirting with women, but it was so obvious that most women thought he was just plain creepy. I’d see him at various events (always with a first date who looked bewildered) and overhear him trying so hard to impress her. He was never with the same woman twice.

It’s hard to watch someone you know pursue such a empty shell of a person. It says something about their own lack of self esteem – that they’d be willing to settle for so little. You sound like you’ve come a long way. Welcome back to the world of the living – and caring! Jan

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Lori - May 1, 2012

Thanks Jan, and it’s good to be back! I still have my days, but it gets easier, just as you said it would. The humor in this entire fiasco it starting to come out more and more, so I’m grateful for that. I have found it particularly helpful to remind myself that I’m just a mirror for him, and so ignoring him really is the best way to handle the entire situation. It gives me my power back.

It is hard to see my ex-friend go after him. However, I do have to remind myself that it was her choice to pick him over me, and more importantly, she was fully aware of all the emotional debris he left behind, some of it downright awful. She believes that she is immune to his nasty comments/ways. I think he sees her as some sort of ego stroke he can rely on, and of course there for sex when he needs it. I agree her self-esteem is low, as she has self-described her interactions with these men as “an addiction I can’t stop.” She’s 41 and I don’t see a good outcome for her. Anyways, hope you are well and thanks again! Lori

Lori,
What can I say? Some people are attracted to train wrecks. Your ex-friend seems to have no problem in knowingly going into a “relationship” that will never actually be a real RELATIONSHIP. How sad. I remember wanting to take women that Joe was with aside and talk some sense into them, but ultimately, you have to look out for yourself. I used to wish someone had warned me about Joe, but then I can’t say with certainty that this would have changed anything at all. So many of us choose to willfully overlook the obvious. Good to hear from you. Jan

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12. Lesley - April 30, 2012

I’m praising whatever serendipity made me find this site tonight,the articles have taken whatever scales remained from my eyes..and given me some answers and focus during a horrible time. I have been in a relationship with a Narcissist for eighteen months and was fairly rapidly ‘discarded’ last week. Somewhere in my heart I’m actually relieved about that, but the tears will not stop.
My story runs parallel with many others here,heavy idealisation phase(I thought I’d won the lottery),gradual subtle cruelty and put downs about my personality,intelligence and when I protested he’d withdraw into charm and verbal game-playing again.
Two weeks ago I had a suspected miscarriage(turned out to be a cyst) and of course he abdicated the situation big time. It was as if he had evaporated into the ether. He literally turned to stone in manner and in terms of support. I’ll go for my op next week alone.
I found out yesterday through my sis and friends that he has been seeing others for a while. I lived with him three days a week,on the other days he set up contacts and had a virtual harem online.
He actually,was contacting women online while I was in hosp.
My problem is that in my mind’s eye I still see his charming ,loving of course carefully contrived behaviour juxtaposed with the awful lack of empathy and his latter dead eyed stare.
At the beginning of the relationship he talked of his previous relationships in terms of’how wronged he’d been’…. I bought it.
Now I realise he has been this way all his life,the casualties amongst loving caring women must be enormous.
I feel all the words you describe so well on this site,duped,foolish,hoodwinked,my self esteem is zilch.
For info, this guy has a score of friends who buy into the facade, a great job(albeit one he often struggles with).
One positive fact,despite feeling so low, I do feel human,very human.
I do not think he is. I do not think he ever will be.
Thanks for the great site Jan. You do not know what finding this meant to me tonight. Truly. It gave me my compass back. Lesley

Lesley,
I’m so glad my site. I’m just a teacher who happened to get caught up in the nasty web of narcissism. Sometimes, my husband wonders why I still write about this. (His first take on the N was, “What a jerk!” so he never understood just how demeaning the entire episode was.) It’s comments like yours that make my day. You are right. These people have left a trail of emotional debris their entire lives. It’s hard to believe that all of the Idealization phase was a grandly rehearsed act that has been perfected over the years. There is NEVER a Right Person for the N. You WILL be tempted to replay the “good times.” That’s natural, but it’s a bit like trying to analyze a crush or falling in love. It’s hard to nail it down. Please stop in again. My students are actually taking THE TEST this week, so I’m hoping to finally write a new post since I won’t have to grade papers. :) Always, Jan

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kiwigal007 - May 1, 2012

Hi Lesley
I totally can relate to your situation having just broken up with a Narcissist back in late February. Not a day goes by and I still think of him as the wounds are still fresh and new as they were back then. I too found this site just before my N and I parted ways and are glad that I did, Jan has written with such honesty that it has prompted me to write my own blog. It is very hard and difficult and I can sense everyone’s pain that they are going through as they write on here. I had a miscarriage to my N and unfortunately when I broke down and had to see a counsellor, he was nowhere to be seen, it was when I truly started to see him for who he was and not the charming man I thought he was.

Right now my N is seeing an old school girlfriend and that breaks my heart. He told me he was not up for something full on and was not ready to settle so at the moment it is chewing me up knowing he is now going out with another woman and his own age too (he is 13 years older than me) this is where I can identify with Lori and the ‘creep button’.

To all of you out there, we will get through this and through this great site I know we can all support each other. It is very difficult to explain these types of relationships to others out there, they expect that we should be able to ‘get over it’ and things will return to normal. But sad reality it can sometimes take us longer and for me I know my pain will not heal ‘straight away’.

Now is the time we need to start self loving ourselves, something N’s do alot of the time, but I do not believe they love themselves but they do like to praise themselves to the point that they think they do.

Thanks for reading this and take good care now.
Shell :-)

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13. Lori - May 1, 2012

Lesley and Shell:

Sorry to hear about your situations. I feel very lucky leaving virtually unscathed and much wiser with the N I was with. So please take the time to take care of yourselves.

I think it’s great you found this site. I have found it very helpful to come back here periodically, as well as a couple of other sites. Reading and re-reading has helped me move forward and realize how emotionally limited he really is, which is not something I want for a partner. I still have my days where I get annoyed or angry, especially when you start to think of the “good times,” but when you realize he is just acting the same play over and over with another person, you see that his life is sort of perpetually stuck in this time loop and he most likely will never escape. I have also come to realize my part in this process, as I seem to fall into patterns of going after emotionally unavailable men. I have found another site that specializes in this, so I spend a lot of time there. It has certainly helped me.

The D&D phase is hard to deal with, but I like to think that I’m part of an exclusive club knowing that I have refused his advances and as a result, saw the real person behind the mask. There’s a lot of power in knowing the real person…I believe it arms you with the ability to protect yourself from any future involvement as he will most likely stay away. Jan talks about familiarity breeds contempt with these Ns, and I believe it. It’s also comforting to me to think the older these men get, the more difficult it becomes for them to sucker someone, as I witness this every time I go to class.

Just the other day I was in class and heard him describing his latest female interest to another. I laughed when I heard him, as I have heard him describe at least 2 other women in the same manner. Watching him try to talk to her was also entertaining, as I saw how scripted everything he said was. It occurred to me that the “creep button” went off practically every time he tried to do something spontaneous, but ended up just looking weird. Of course, he was pleased with himself. So, keep in mind, it will be hard to overcome your feelings of loss, but when you really start to see that you’ve lost nothing but a cardboard cutout person (that’s what I see him as), you will crave having something more meaningful, three-dimensional. Keep asking yourself, “Do I really want this flat, emotionally-limited, bag of air?” If you are here on this site, I assume the answer is no.

Take care,

Lori

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14. kiwigal007 - May 1, 2012

Hi Lori
Thank you very much for your message, I hate to sound strange but what does D& D stand for ? Sorry I am just trying to get my head around alot of the Narcissistic terminology. Yes you are right, reading and re reading has been particularly helpful and Jan has been a great support as I do not really know anyone else with the exception of a friend who reckons his brother is an N (it kind of makes me feel like my Dad could be a wee bit of one too actually) so I am pretty alone here dealing with it all. Writing my blog has helped as well but sometimes when I add things to it, I wonder whether it all makes sense and then I start to get a bit apprehensive about using ‘I’ and ‘me’ statements!

MY N was a fantastic guy at first and he was on and off for the seven years we were together. His idea of our relationship was a close friendship and that sort of chat I could never fathom, I really felt like I was older than him at times with that sort of chit chat so I dismissed when he would say it verbally or in an email, I knew that in my heart he was also a commitment phob because of his past so that sort of talk I tended to ignore after awhile.

You are so right in saying that there is alot of power behind knowing someone behind the mask and I knew my N perhaps better than most out there, he often would say I was the only woman who could put up with him so I can almost guarantee he will be back if this relationship flops. I miss him and there is no way to express that without saying just that. I cannot unfortunately just turn off the taps (faucets) when I loose someone despite how strange things get, but I get what you are saying and I thank you for that. My N is a very gifted classical musician and was so up and down like a yo-yo…but like you I get angry, frustrated and indeed annoyed at times that this iss something he probably loved to watch as I am usually quite a calm person but in this situation I maybe did things I never even thought I would.

I could write so much more right now but its just gone 10.20pm here in New Zealand so I bid you and everyone sweet dreams from here in the Southern Hemisphere.

Thank you once again Lori :-)

Good night all
Shell :-D

Shell,
I’ve had two people who use the “&amp” repeatedly. It’s not anything NPD-related. I went onto a texting site and Urban Dictionary trying to decipher its meaning – but nada. (Since you’re a Kiwi, that’s NOTHING in Spanish.) The best I could come up with had something to do with science. (Can you tell I just rolled out of bed and haven’t had my coffee yet?) Please enlighten us Lori. Always, Jan&amp

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Lesley - May 1, 2012

kiwigal,
Aw, I feel for you. Your honesty when you say you miss him and there is no other way to say that catches me in the heart.
Yet what are we missing. Hollow Men. What we miss does not exist.
You are bang on when you say he probably loved to watch you
losing it,getting mad. Let’s face it ,it proves the power they have over us and if we cry or falter. They have won.
Do a reality check,what sort of person gets off on someone
else’s pain? I am telling myself that constantly just now.
An inhuman person…right. I care about myself too much to go on missing an inhuman person.
Hugs to you.

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Lori - May 2, 2012

Shell,

A lot of the narcissist terminology can be found in Sam Vahkin’s work. It’s interesting to read, but he can go on QUITE a bit, so look there. Also, Lisa Scott has a good site with a lot of people telling their stories. Jan’s articles were an absolute godsend to me, and they really started the ball rolling in terms of having information out there that finally made me feel less crazy in my experiences. Finally, Baggage Reclaim is a great site to read about unavailable men, and why some women keep going back to them, our patterns of thought, etc. I can’t say that my N is truly diagnosable, however he has many traits. I can say with absolute certainty that he is an Unavailable Male and that I tend to follow patterns with this type, holding onto these relationships, etc., so that is something that I am working on.

I’m not sure what Jan meant by “&amp,” but I assumed she meant to type “D&D.” Hopefully, I’ve answered your question.

Take care,

Lori

Thanks Lori,
Actually, I have had several people who added the &amp which always confuses me. If you’re writing D&D, why do you need to add the amp? (That’s the teacher in me.) I’ve recently been reading about people who can’t emotionally commit as I have a close friend (male) who is smitten with a woman who has these issues. It’s such a hopeless cause as they’re always afraid to “settle” when the perfect person could be lurking around the corner. Trying to have a meaningful relationship with someone who is a commitment-phobe is as doomed as a relationship with a narcissist. Neither can emotionally bond with you. It’s a lose/lose situation. Jan

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kiwigal007 - May 2, 2012

Thank you Lori, yes I have actually read parts of Sam’s site and added him as a ‘friend’ on Facebook of all things, I think I have been walking in a bit of a blur for the last few months but it is good to know that you too found the two sites I found and of course this one of Jan’s as it tells me I am on the right track. Please without me sounding like an N, take a look at my blog on Blogspot, I have written quite a bit in there as it has been a bit of a healer for me which I really need right now – time to heal. Your N sounded very much like a jerk and its interesting how you have these woman now coming to you about him. I wonder if I will ever bump into the woman that the N I was with up until awhile back will try and find me. In my blog I have actually exposed a few chats we had online, some letters and a few other bits and bobs. One of the letters which he wrote to me he is telling me we are just friends and only had a friendship… this again was something which was pathetic as everyone who knows us could see how smitten he was towards me when we first got together…(Interesting to note how his friends are still friends with me to this day) I actually never took any notice of him before I met him and then there he was and pretty soon he was starting to ask me out etc… my blog is http://www.helpmeamigoingcrazy.blogspot.com
I have just started to write one in here too but its more about things I enjoy etc… Just hope I do not sound like an N though when I write it!

I have also read Baggage reclaim before I wanted to walk away from the man on the site and Lisa Scott I subscribed to a wee while back. It is just so good to have this literature online but I wish I had seen it all earlier and then been able to read the signs alot sooner.

Jan, hope you are surviving this week OK? Have been thinking of you and hope all is well at school. Its getting rather chilly here now over here so pretty soon I am going to have start organising inside activities for my 30+ kids and keeping them all entertained. Today it was rather icy which is weird for Autumn (fall) but the sun was out but the wind was what made it cold. Just having a homemade chai tea as I write to you all and are off to bed shortly. Sorry if this sounds a bit disjointed, I am zonked… busy day today!

Hugs to each of you all from here
Shell:-)

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15. Tracy - May 1, 2012

D and D = “devalue and discard”. After you’ve had the incredible over- “valuation” stage, their “act”, this latter stage is what is the most upsetting and confusing. It’s the stage where you start to look for others to help you to get a “reality check” I call it. My partner had me so turned around (anti-logic and gaslighting) that I would go and talk with a neighbour to run some of our conversations by her. Like, “is it just me that’s totally off the mark?”…Does this sound right to you?”, that sort of thing. If I hadn’t done that when I did, I’m not sure I’d have escaped with my faculties still in order.

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Lori - May 1, 2012

Exactly Tracy! Sorry to everyone for using unknown terminology here. I tend to float between this site, Lisa Scott’s site, and Baggage Reclaim, so I use the terms rather freely.

Unfortunately, the devalue and discard stage are inevitable, unless you want to spend the rest of your life fawning over him and get increasingly less back.

Devaluing essentially starts to happen the minute you start to show any interest. The N figures, “I’m horrible and this person likes me, so they must be horrible too.” Something like that. They question why you value them, so they devalue you for valuing them. It’s so confusing and not they way a healthy relationship should be. Eventually you’re tossed aside for a different model, so the dance can start with that person, hence you are discarded. Depending on how things ended, you may be “shelved” and brought out again for ego strokes, etc. Sam Vahkin (sp?) has a lot out there on this topic, so I’d read through some of his stuff too for a better explanation.

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16. Lesley - May 1, 2012

Hi Everyone,Thankyou for comments,this Brit(Scot actually) is so grateful.
This site is bursting full of light…it’s the only way I can describe it- in comparison to the darkness of the N(the man thought I’d come to know).
Staying positive,even clutching at any positive aspect of the situation is proving my solace just now. I did escape.Thank God.
I see now ,that the ‘discard’ phase, although executed swiftly,has been coming for 2 or 3 months.
My health trigger hastened it,there is no way he would have accepted the care and responsibility for that. Also,perhaps more importantly, I had begun to suss him out. I saw patterns to his game-playing emerging, I was challenging and starting to talk to others about my perceptions.The game was up.Lastly, he was and is as I write, off stocking up on Narc Supply.
My Sis actually,( through love of me )showed me a personal ad he’s written on an online dating service,he talks about places and landmarks we visited together,books he likes(that I gave him). It’s like he has taken what he needed from me,sucked me dry of what he could utilise and is using my personality and vibrancy to attract others. He repeats stock phrases that he used to attract me.
I am having an epiphany today.
Some of my observations..See what you make of them? Do they make sense?
These guys can ‘Future Fake Extraordinaire’, I was promised the world,marriage,glowing future,life commitment he was going to be there’When my parents passed on’ etc. As the relationship progressed he used promises like these to keep me where he wanted me when I balked at his behaviour or put-downs.
He degraded me verbally and sexually. The latter I find difficult to talk about and may need to seek some professional support. Sex was generally rough, with him needing to dominate. I am in my forties with an adult son,no prude ..but before this I had mostly experienced tenderness and connection during love-making. Latterly I felt like a masturbatory device,no eyecontact…the means to an end. Awful,I keep on having flashbacks,shudder.
In case you think I’d gone mad…he could be loving afterwards. I’d think I was losing my grip on reality.
I wanted to say finally, that he kept around him a bunch of’enablers’.
A group of largely middle aged guys, successful, with the same moral code. I don’t think they all had NPD for a minute, but some of them had certain key traits. He shone in this group..got his pats on the back .
Since yesterday, I have read over many posts in awe and understanding.
The one word that I keep on coming back to is’Vibrancy’. I’ll get it back. I actually feel courageous today(not sure about tomorrow!)
Light shine on us all, I’m off for a walk, it’s glorious on the East coast of Scotland today,the sky is pale gold,
Lesleyx

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17. Lori - May 1, 2012

Lesley:

Keep your chin up. Everything you described, the back and forth, sexual strangeness, etc., it’s actually “normal” given how these men operate. I felt the same way. I always felt like he used me to masturbate with, if that makes any sense. There really is this sort of emotional disconnect during sex, which was the first red flag I experienced. Looking back, there were others before, but you know what they say about hindsight. The good thing is you can use that hindsight from that situation and apply it to the rest of your life. All is not lost! I think professional help is a great idea…I did it for awhile and it helped me. Now I tend to rely on sites like this one and Baggage Reclaim. That’s a good place to go to.

I wasn’t promised anything, but I was used. I’m a nurse practitioner and he was having back problems, so after we broke up our sexual relationship, he started hitting on me again. I thought we could at least be friendly, civil, and what eventually happened is he would come to me baring his soul about his back, talk to me about his work, his mother, absent father, etc. I sort of became this woman he could talk to and bare his soul. I’m sure deep down he is lonely, as I don’t doubt he experiences the need to confide, share like the rest of us. However, he is incapable of reciprocating, and eventually, I think he might have felt that he overexposed himself with the sharing, so he backed away very abruptly, started to downgrade my credentials to other people behind my back, and we were off to the races with my devalue and discard. I never probed him or asked him questions, he talked with me freely. The final straw was a conversation about dating, and he exploded when I told him “you don’t take the time to get to know a person.” He raged, and I just stood their listening, watching him get all worked up. A few days later I saw him at the bus stop, said hello and his last words to me were, “No more talking.” Since then (about a year), he goes out of his way to ignore and occasionally asks other mutually known people about me. Since I still go to the gym and take one of his classes, I ignore him and go about my business. The only other woman that returned to his classes after sleeping with him is still trying to have a relationship with him, so I don’t think he quite knows how to deal with me.

My N likes to keep a harem of woman who fawn over him so he can get his ego strokes that way. That group is dwindling, so we’ll see how that goes. He has spoken of returning to England in a few years, most likely because he has slept with everyone here in NYC :) and his narcissistic supply is running short. I’ll let you know if he heads in your direction. I think we should have an alert system for this!

Everything that you’ve said about your experiences sounds similar, if not identical to what I’ve experienced and what others have written about. It’s good to write and talk about it. Keep doing what you’re doing.

Enjoy the sun in Scotland. It’s a beautiful day in New York City as well.

Lori

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Lesley - May 1, 2012

Hey Lori,
Thankyou. I am a baggage claim fan as well and that and Jan’s insightful blog are getting me through. You will recognise me being a BR fan through my ‘Future Faking’ analogy.
I recognise the need to vent just now and resultant anger that utterly floors me but.. am working it through.
Status. His status. That is what I’m dealing with tonight,all expensive gifts,any trips we took were sort of a proof of where he felt himself to be in the pecking order. I think these guys are less about giving you pleasure than about confirming to themselves that they are High Status,Alphas.They are not inside though…Am interested in Jan’s articles in ‘how ‘they start to reveal themseves. Brilliant.
I was vulnerable when I met him, perhaps didn’t realise it, but was recovering from car accident and bereavement. I know now that his previous girlfriends were also vulnerable in other ways. Although a professional person in my own right, I ignored the cues and yes, I ignored my own gut instinct.I do feel shame for that.
Do they have a sensor, for blood in the water like killer sharks.??
Re your N dismissing your credentials to others in your circle. Yeah I get this. They are expert at passing blame. I did and do have a problem with this, I know he’ll denigrate me to others to look good. Your essential expertise and strength will show through Lori. Keep Strong, Lets hope the good weather keeps up for us. Peace and Love to All.

Lesley,
Enough about the fabulous weather – it rained in SoCal today (but it’s to be sunny tomorrow). :) My dear friend (who I met on an NPD forum) is also a Lesley and in England. She was the first person who explained to me that Lesley is the female spelling and Leslie is the male version. Someone needs to tell us Americans. I’ve been to England twice to see her and she’s been to America four times now. We always say that our meeting was the one good thing that came out of this awful experience. The N in her life was also somatic, so he was always looking for his next mark. She also had the same odd sexual experience that left her feeling rather used and unsettled. In some ways, they’re so utterly predictable. Always, Jan

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Lesley - May 3, 2012

Hey Jan, I just had to come back to you here about my name.. It comes from a small village in Scotland Leslie, latterly a mining town. The Lairds there began to name their children Leslie. The Scottish Poet(our word ‘Bard’) Robert Burns wrote a famous poem ‘ Bonnie Lesley’, about a woman he loved who was off down south to England.The poem means a lot to me, as my grandpa used to recite it to me..
Through this poem, the name became popular in the UK.
Bear with me Jan, I do love history.. and the meaning of it in
our everyday life.In this, I am a true Celt.

Lesley,
My ancestors were from England, Scotland, and Wales, so I’m interested in all things Celtic (AND I have red hair!) I just finished reading
An Utterly Impartial History of Britain or 2000 Years of Upper-class Idiots in Charge. Jan

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18. Lori - May 2, 2012

Lesley:

I thought your “Future Faking” analogy might have come from BR, but wasn’t sure. I am finishing her first book now and am just floored about her observations. Have you read it? I find it incredibly useful, scary too. I frequently go back to Jan’s articles and BR and re-read things. Every time I do, I feel like I learn something new, have an a-ha moment and become a little stronger.

I agree with the Alpha male bit. My N didn’t have the prestige car or the ability to pay for expensive things (one of his relationships resulted in a daughter that he begrudgingly gives up a substantial portion of his salary to), but he played semi-professional soccer and therefore believes himself to be the ultimate stud. On the inside he’s most likely an 8 year old, developmentally speaking. The revealing of their true self is interesting. In a strange way, thinking about how things unravelled with me has sort of helped me process things and really see how it’s not about me. Also, I’ve had the somewhat unique position to see him “work his magic” on other women, and so I see that I’m not alone in what I experience, even though it’s sort of like watching a car wreck happen in slow motion. Most of the women fall the same way I did and I assume they are mortified by what happens in the bedroom given his tastes. Either way, he dumps them and they never return to the gym. One in particular I became friendly with in class, and I saw her at another class a few weeks ago. She barely made eye contact and ran away, I presume because she linked me with that class. Others have left the classes he teaches out of disgust, most saying “he’s creepy.” I applaud them and envy them…wished my “creepy button” had worked like theirs did. Just tonight his latest interest approached me between classes and said, “Does he always act like that with the hugging?” Now, I’ve seen her at a few classes and say hello to her in passing, but she approaches me and asks that question. This has happened to me with at least 3 other women in class, all approaching me. So I take the opportunity to talk to them and try to see where they are coming from. ALL OF THEM are in a vulnerable period in their lives, either divorce, loved one’s death, etc. I myself was going through a rough patch. So, you are spot on with your thought about being vulnerable. I swear he can sense this in these women, he even looks like a wolf now with saliva dripping from his fangs when he stares. Interestingly, I also ask why they approach me, and the usual response is something like “you seem sure of yourself,” or “I just got a good vibe from you.” That’s comforting to me, so maybe my strength is showing through. Maybe I should start a support group for these women-Ha! I know I can’t say anything about what’s happened to me, but when they look bewildered about his behavior or question his inappropriateness with the hugging, etc., I do tell them they need to figure out what they are comfortable with in terms of interacting with men whom they are unfamiliar with. I think they already have some gut feelings, so hopefully they will listen to them.

I too feel shame for not listening to my gut, but don’t beat yourself up over it. It sounds like you had a lot going on, and unfortunately, sometimes these opportunists win. As for your denigration, I say the same to you, that your strength will shine through and those that recognize it won’t believe him. Those people will be your friends. His group won’t, but they sound like a bunch of jerks, like him.

Anyways, stay positive and vibrant…I like that word too.

Lori

Lori,
Thanks so much for your positive and insightful comments. I originally found Halycon (on my blogroll) to be a helpful resource. When I go back and read it now (5 years later) it still holds up. “Stalking the Soul” with the subtitle “Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity” by Marie-France Hirigoyen also helped me immensely when it came to those convoluted nonversations. Finally, they are drawn to your vibrance as they only wish it was theirs. I found that in no time at all, Joe was parroting back to me phrases I used. The essence of who you are is still there. Those who lack a sense of self might copy it, but they can’t steal it. It’s yours to keep. Always, Jan

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Lori - May 2, 2012

Jan:

Thank you for letting me write as much as I have! I just feel the need to get all this out right now, so this posting came at just the right time. It’s also nice to talk to those that have gone/are going through this. I have one friend who dated an N for 2 months and was very traumatized by the experience. We talk about it now, and she has been very helpful to me. I feel I should somehow repay the cosmos and listen/help others.

I will check out the “Stalking the Soul” book. I did read Halycon quite awhile ago and just checked it out, as well as some of your articles as well. Re-reading helps me fit pieces into my puzzle. One of the things you wrote particularly rang true for me at this time. You mentioned that “Joe” was attracted to you for your nurturing qualities and would seek guidance from you. Looking back, I can see the same with me the second time around with my N. We initially had the sexual relationship, then we broke up. I returned to class, he tried to win me back, I refused, and then he started in with lower back pain questions, etc., soliciting my advice and then of course knocking it down. I was duped at that point, as my mother had just passed away, so I was feeling a little vulnerable. Something strange he said to a friend of mine just came back to me. He was asking people in class where I was, and my friend told him my Mother had passed and I was out of town. His response was so weird, she just didn’t know how to process it, so she direct quoted it to me: “Oh, that’s awful. Is she alright? Is she ok with me knowing this? Does she know I know?” That was such a weird response, and then I chocked it up to his “personality quirks,” but now I wonder. He made it all about him, that I can see, but did he actually see that event in my life as an opportunity to glide back in and use me? It makes me shudder.

And thanks for the kind words…I know its the vibrancy they go for and that I have it. I’d like to think that it annoys him that he tried to rob me of it and couldn’t take it. :) Lori

Lori,
Yes, originally some of the sites seem to suggest that Ns hit on the weak and vulnerable. But then I did more reading and realized that, more often than not, they envy you. You’re like a toy they covet. I was new to my school and made friends quickly. I actually can remember Joe standing on the sidelines watching me. I had something he wanted, but it’s something you can’t steal as it’s real.

In regards to the comment upon learning of your mother’s death (so sorry). His reaction and insensitivity was so N-like. I remember once seeing Joe just after I’d been told that one of my students was being sexually abused by her father. Joe knew the girl, so I thought he’d register disbelief/shock…anything. Instead, he said he hoped I wouldn’t get “all hung up” about the girl, so that it would “interfere” with our completing a project we were working on. I remember thinking, What sort of an A$$hole would say that? Jan

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kiwigal007 - May 2, 2012

Good morning all :-)

I awoke reading your post Lori and like you I need to read that book Stalking the soul and came across this site which has a exerpt from the book. I am a bit pushed for time right now but I can just say that us surviors of Narcissitic abuse must stick together and since coming on here and “listening” to everyone and putting in my two cents worth, it has been very good and beneficial for me. I am very sorry to hear about your mother as that would be extremely hard on you to deal with at that point in time. I loved your last comment,

“I know its the vibrancy they go for and that I have it. I’d like to think that it annoys him that he tried to rob me of it and
couldn’t take it” as I think with our caring natures and the vibrancy we possess are what attracts these sorts of people. My N said I was happy, chatty and full of life when he met me and yes indeed I was, but after being with him for a long time I lost alot of that and my self confidence slowly went downhill, I started to put on weight, my migraines would get worse and all sorts of things. We will get through this!!!

Have a great day:-) and please enjoy this

http://www.webofnarcissism.com/forums/index.php/topic,7548.msg28672.html?PHPSESSID=2ab03bea4f90eb77f7776e6da8e4dc10#msg28672

I am going to read it later on :-D

Best wishes to you all
Shell :-)

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Lori - May 3, 2012

Jan-

Ugghhh, that’s disgusting what Joe said. I just cringe thinking about that.

As for the coveting, I have a hard time understanding what my N covets now that he has discarded me. Unfortunately, I gave it up all to easy in the beginning and turned him down the second time around, so really what is there to covet if he’s already had it? Is it just resilience? I do make friends easily too, and I know he has a hard time socializing, so is it that?

Sorry about the double post down there. I replied in the wrong spot.

Lori,
I’m able to magically delete duplicate comments. Tada! (Or as my friend Lesley from England says, “Trala!”

I saw Joe in “covet mode” during the Idealization Phase. He could be socially awkward, so I believe he coveted how easily I could relate to others. Jan

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19. kiwigal007 - May 2, 2012

Well I am in the midst of eating lunch now and taking a break from my studies… just thought I would take a read of that article I posted earlier and God lord this sounds so much like the N that I was with right down to the writing of the letters.

In my relationship I often did not see C throughout the week due to me with my work and him with his studies so we would often meet after I had finished after work and I would stay at his house from Friday to Monday morning. If we happen to see each other online we would chat and fortunately I have kept enough chats to write a book about things but the fact was he seemed better to communicate with online as oposed to offline, I also found myself writing many a letter on Word to him and sending them as attachments to his emails and after awhile they did start to sound the same but it was only because he would not answer my questions or would ‘choose’ not to answer them, saying he only would chat if he had something to talk about which of course is just beyond me now reading all of this… :-o

The more I read the article the more I could see how I powerless I had become and I am now loosing that love that I had for him despite me earlier on saying I still had alot of love for him. The sad reality is that being a compassionate soul, I keep thinking of the woman he is with now, they got together in Feb… how soon will he start to show those true colours with her I wonder. I also know something about my N that very few do too and part of me wants to break my silence by writing a letter to his employers or shall I say an anonymous email to them (NZ Navy) and tell them something about him as his contract is up for renewal in June. At the moment here in NZ our government is cracking down on alot of military’s spending and I know that this N I was with got away with hardly paying any rent when he was living in the barracks when he enlisted a few years ago. Part of me says shutup and let it be and the other part says to write a letter…. I just dont like his dishonesty! :-(

Have a great day all,
Shell:-)

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Lori - May 3, 2012

Hi Shell:

Thanks for posting that. I read most of it and decided I will just buy the book, as I was hooked. The end part was the most chilling for me, the part about the envy turning to hatred. The last line too, where time and distance don’t really change how he feels because he was not able to appropriate what he wanted. I assume that is why the silent treatment that he imposed and continues to this day was started. I just wonder why the silent treatment? What did I do to him? Is it because I continue to go back to his classes and am actually very happy, have lots of friends in those classes, is this what makes him hate me? His other conquests never went back to his classes, except for one who is my ex-friend. She worships the ground he walks on and would gladly sleep with him again if given the chance. She also thinks she can change him. He was never put off by her return, still talks to her, so I wonder why we are treated differently. Those are my unanswered questions.

As for the anonymous letter you’d like to write, I’d be very careful about doing something like that. First, he may realize you turned him in, possibly leading to some sort of violent retaliation on his part? That would be a fear of mine. Second, you have to ask yourself what you want to gain from this. If it is revenge, I wouldn’t tread there. You may not like his dishonesty, but the only place where you have a valid, legitimate opinion on his dishonesty is in his treatment and behavior towards you. All the rest is for others to work out and how it applies to them. Trust me, I too wanted to write an anonymous letter to my Ns employer, pretending to be a girl who he’d hit on and run out of class. I got really close to doing it, and then stopped because I felt that I was putting so much energy into getting back at him, but wasn’t really taking care of myself. Again, I was making it all about him, which is what he would want. So I stopped, and went back to my therapist, started reading all there is to read online, and put the focus back on me. I have to admit, there was some level of loneliness that I felt by not focusing on him. Even though my focus was actually negative, it still supplied him with some negative attention, which is what he seeks, positive or negative, he doesn’t care what he gets. I also had to find a way to fill my time as I wasn’t focusing on how to get him back. So, I picked up some new classes at the gym…pilates and body conditioning, in addition to his spin classes, and as a result, I lost 25 lbs! So, don’t try to get even with him, it just won’t work. Lead a happy life and you will win for yourself…my friend had to tell me that one, I was too absorbed with negativity to figure that one out!

As for the new girlfriend, I thinks it’s safe to assume she will treated in the same manner as you, and the one before you, and the one before her…see where I’m going with this one. I can’t say with certainty that my N is actually diagnosable, but he is PREDICTABLE, and I would think yours is too. I don’t foresee happy, healthy relationships for men like them…don’t forget, they can only “act” so far and once they run out of a script, improvising is just not a possibility. My N used to say, “I give them the 3 best months of their lives” when talking about his ex-girlfriends. That seems to be about his actual limit. Hopefully, your N’s new girlfriend will see through him and leave, as there’s always another. I don’t believe they’re capable of change.

Another long post :)

Have a good night and I’ll check out your blog too.

Lori

Lori,
I agree with you about the sending of an anonymous letter. First of all, an anonymous letter has no credence – anyone could have written it. Also, the concerns are related to a personal and not a professional issue. It’s sometimes very difficult as you’d like to let others know who/what they’re dealing with, but it’ll be clear who sent the letter – at least to the N.

I have to say that once I figured Joe out, I could predict with uncanny accuracy how he would respond to almost any situation. He might as well have been a lab rat. :) Jan

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20. kiwigal007 - May 3, 2012

Hi Lori and Jan and to all of you wonderful women!

This is my second attempt on writing this this evening, I somehow wiped my first comment a few minutes ago and was just about to press ‘post comment’ and I deleted the whole lot :-(

Excuse me for my delay getting back to you, I am in the midst of an assignment at the moment and although its not due for a couple of weeks, I have alot of stuff I have to cover for it so I am chipping away with it each day and try and get as much done as possible.

Lori, thank you for your heartfelt words. I am not really seeking revenge but more to teach C a lesson so that he may be able to stop and realise his actions. He has had problems with his back for awhile with Sciatica and it may be a good thing if the Navy do decide to let him go, but the letter was not to get back at all or anything like that but to make him realise that life can be good but sometimes there is a time to pull the plug. He has been ‘using’ the Navy for many things over the time he has been with them. Fortunately they are not paying for his education but they have helped him in many other areas and I cringe to think what else he has done since our break up.

I just know like you I am experiencing loneliness at times and as I live alone, I do tend to ponder about things perhaps more so because there is just me here with my soft toys and cat and no one else when I come home. C is still in my mind each day and although I am working on it, I know in time the wound will heal itself and I would have moved on. I just find many things difficult to farthom and things that I wished I could have read about like on here beforehand, but thats the thing about life I guess, we never know what is around that corner do we?

I guess like you say its time to start thinking about our own needs now and focusing on what is important to us. I have goals and dreams that I have and part of me wants to write and tell him each one that I have accomplished after I done it because these were things we considered doing together but there was a catch, he wanted everything I wanted but minus the intimacy, our love life was excellent where that was concerned but the moment I was starting to cotton on to him, things went rather pear shaped. You are right he probably will do the same to this poor lady in time. He and I were together for a better part of seven years but he will still say we were just good friends… whatever mate! The sad thing with her as she dated him back in High School before he went on and did what he did and got to where he is. My sneaky suspicion is that he is after her money as without me sometimes C was no one and does not have much…. :-( now thats another story….

Enough from me for now and thank you to each of you. I really do appreciate coming in here and being part of this group. It is uplifting and very encouraging to know that we all understand one another and what the other is saying. I thank you all for letting me share my story too. I tried to find the book today on the Book Depository but it wasnt there so I have had a book on Emotional abuse put on hold for me at the Library:

Overcoming emotional abuse : survive and heal – by Susan Eliott Wright. I hope it is a good one:-)

Best wishes and thank you!
Hugs to each of you
Shell :-D

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Lesley - May 3, 2012

Hugs to you Shell,
I just wanted to say that I recognise your need to teach C a lesson or to prove that you will realise your dreams and ambitions without him. I think an anonymous letter detracts from the strong insightful woman you are however…and I wanted to share what I have done.
I ‘wrote’myself; a letter two days ago and posted it to my own inbox. In in, I got rid of a lot of the anger and pain I’ve felt as he put me through this discard phase and I wrote down all my feelings at the instances throughout our relationship when he
devalued me. My rage,loneliness,feelings of being hoodwinked are there. I wrote of the disgust I feel and how I see him for how he truly is as a man, an ‘inhu-man.’
Then I wrote how I plan to recover,what I will do to return me- to -me.The friends I will see again( I felt isolated from others during our relationship),the new activities I am interested in,the love and respect I have in my life. I spoke of my achievements and my good points and of course…my vibrancy. Then I read it over, twice and saved it in drafts.
It is there for me when I need it.
I have also stuck a couple of statements that mean something to me about Life and Joy and my Spirituality in big turquoise letters on the fridge! I wear a lot of turquoise in colours and jewelry. It helps.
But, I am far from perfect… I am off work waiting for the minor op I need and at times I want to escape under the duvet, I have either starved myself for a day or over -eaten. This I think is normal. I am not going to beat myself up over it. I am mourning because I am a caring woman.
For info folks, I got a text last night from him;
‘Lesley, I wish you well, I really do, who can say why relationships fail. I think it best if we do not communicate again.A’
I texted back
‘ Rest easy, be 100%sure I will never contact you again,ever. I am moving on positively and with energy’
I think I felt a small crackle of anger over the cyber ether from him…! The discarded woman has been able to raise her head?
Shell, we are unique in how we deal with these strangely similar creatures. We are unique in the pain we feel, in how we tried to help them,our persistence, our hopes, our strength to bear difficulty,our bouncing back,our love and light and ultimately our humanity.
I am sending you understanding and positive energy to New Zealand(you are probably asleep), but it will get there.
I am off to the garden, Peace to all,
Lesley

Lesley,
Jan here. LOL My other dear friend, Lesley, got a similar text message. She’d asked for some closure and he texted something similar and said, “So how’s that for closure?!” Of course it wasn’t done out of kindness or consideration, or even for closure. It was just twisting the knife. You handled it well. If he texts again resist the impulse the reply. They like to know that whether their behavior is good or bad, it still can effect you. You sound like you’re on a good path. Always, Jan

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Lori - May 3, 2012

Well said, Lesley. I agree with you that we want him to know that we are doing incredibly without him. In a way, it’s the feeling of closure that we never seem to get. And your letter to yourself is a wonderful idea. One more positive thing we can read to ourselves, in addition to all the information we have found on this blog, as well as others.

Lori

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21. kiwigal007 - May 3, 2012

Hi Lesley
Big hugs back! Thank you so much for that, I just feel numb, strange, odd and weird right now even now… maybe its because I know my birthday a week today (May 11) and I know how he and I would go out and do something to celebrate our birthdays being foodies and all. With C I had felt I had really met the man of my dreams because he was rather encouraging as far as me returning back to study and now that I am doing my degree and diploma (at a distance) I sometimes wish I was back at work full time earning a decent wage again but are grateful that I do have a job which I do with children after school.

I thank each and every one of you re the letter, C has so much baggage that I really ought to write a book on him one day, he was so strange at times that he would often ask me little things he was afraid of asking others and I remember once he told me how he would get confused between AM and PM in regards to time and I would gently have to remind him or would say think A comes first so it must be morning and P comes after A so it will be afternoon. He is a very intelligent man but just these little things I would get asked left me wondering at times. :-O

I also feel he is lying to himself about many things too, but I guess that is what all N’s are doing. He is not allowing himself to grow and mature like a man should and this is why I secretly saw him as a Peter Pan type of guy.

I could write heaps on here ladies but I must dash, Lesley my virtual hugs to you for your upcoming operation and yes I think colour does wonders to lift the spirit. I am wearing navy today but I have pink underneath. It is getting rather chilly now and like you I just want to pull up the duvet sometimes. My diet has gotten alot better and the ole slow cooker is out as I made perhaps the equivilant to your Scotch broth at the start of the week and have been eating that regularly. Last night I ate fish and I know at times I feel like eating something very small or I may overeat too… this will pass for us I am sure.

Does anyone know much about Records Management? :-) I just got an assignment back yesterday on my Intercultural communication paper 73% so I am really happy about that. The one I am currently working on is on Electronic Records and its a biggie… best get back to it now but had to come in to say thank you and hello to you all.

BIG HUGS from Kiwiland
Shell :-)

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Lori - May 4, 2012

Shell-

I’m a color person too…I have to wear something red all the time, even if its just underwear :) I’m like that with food too, so tonight it was avocado, tomatoes and steak on my purple plates. I think it must be the Mexican in me, because color has to be everywhere. Turquoise is nice…very soothing color.

I don’t know what Records Management is? What is it? What are you in school for? I’m graduating at the end of May and so looking forward to just working. I’ve been in school part time since 2008, so it’s nice to think that I can do lots of fun things again, maybe even clean my apartment :) When do you finish school?

I’m not sure if you would be interested in this, but given your a foodie and would like some good, interesting and pleasant company, have you considered joining a wine tasting or food tasting club? Do they have those sorts of things where you are? In New York we have lunch clubs, wine tasting clubs, different events that you can join where you meet people who share some things in common. It’s just a thought, and might be fun, especially if you have those things in common. I joined a book club, found I hated the book we were reading, but really liked 2 of the women in the group. They hated the book more than me, so we left the group and went out for drinks and I’ve remained friends with them. Just some ideas.

Anyways, I want to get some pleasurable reading in before bed. Hope everyone has a good day tomorrow.

Lori

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kiwigal007 - May 4, 2012

Hi Lori
Drop me a line via my blog and I will reply, sorry I do not want to side track this post for Jan :-)

Talk to you soon,
Shell :-)

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22. kiwigal007 - May 3, 2012

I am sorry for sending links again but I found this for us all.

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF

Its quite a big file!
Shell :-)

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23. kiwigal007 - May 7, 2012

Hi everyone!
Hi Lori, hope you did not think I was being rude but I would love to chat more hence why I invited you to come and say hi on my pages.. in fact everyone is welcome to do so. Records Management is the study of well… records and how they are managed. Everywhere we go we create a record whether that be a paper filing system in the office or keeping a record of our personal budget each week. It is quite an interesting course to say the least and as I have to take up to six electives for my degree, I decided to check the RM ones out and found out that I actually are enjoying them.

Thank you re foodie info, that was great…Because I am a student at the moment it is a bit expensive for me to join up with a wine group but I am looking at joining a women’s group soon which involves mixing in with local business and professional women. My good friend suggested it to me, I was a bit hesistant at first as I am only a Uni student at the moment and are not a professional or business person. But she assures me I will be fine as I will be once I graduate so that was nice to know, she herself owns a business and it was great of her to think of me.

It would be great for us to have a wee book club here but NZ does not seem to have alot of things like you do in the States. I often think of Oprah when I hear the words Book Club as she had one on her show and I was quite impressed with that. I am a real bookaholic when it comes to reading.

Well I must dash now but I just thought I would say hello to you all while I had the chance, I am working on a couple of big assignments at the moment but I thought I would catch up with you all and see how everyone is doing.

Big hugs to you all.
Shell :-)

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Lori - May 7, 2012

Shell:

I did not think you were rude at all. I work 12 hour shifts, both days this past weekend, so when I work, I tend to come home, eat and go to bed. If I get on the computer, I will never go to sleep. That, and I’m studying for my final, so I may check out from time to time. I’ll definitely post on your pages very soon.

I took up a boxing class. Start tomorrow. I anticipate a lot of pain in the forthcoming weeks, but my back will be stronger and look better in a tight dress :)

Sorry to Jan for hijacking your page! :)

Lori

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kiwigal007 - May 8, 2012

Hi Lori and Tracy!
Great to hear from you both again.

Tracy, I have sent a reply to you on the blog but I am wondering if you got it?? I checked it this morning and it is still there, thank you for popping by as it was nice to see you. It is such a shame that I am no longer in WA :-( It would be great to catch up! :-)

Lori, so sorry! I was just a bit worried that I had fobbed you off when I said that, not to worry now that you have explained your circumstances I understand totally!! I work and study too, my degree is Social Science and diploma is in Records Management which is basically what people may call Archiving but it is alot more than just working with files as I am learning, it covers many things like helping to ensure that Councils and government organisations stick to guidelines in terms of acts, and codes of conduct etc… I hope that makes sense! :-D

I am quite busy with two rather big assignments at the moment and have just emailed Jan last night, will be in touch with you all as and when I can. I have really appreciate hearing from you all and each of us having a story to share. Hearing each of your stories and being there for me, really means so much as I am not sure if other friends would actually ‘get us’ in terms of the relationship that we have all had. What I have to keep reminding myself is not to worry about my N’s old flame he has gone back to. I am hoping with her background that she will see the light very quickly and recognise that he is an N. They have not had much to do with each other since high school so he may have been quite a sweetie pie back then and before he started to get really involved with woman. My N often said I would have really loved the old him more than the one he is now so that is something to be said.

On the letter front, I took your advice girls and decided not to write to C’s superior. I do not think that he would come down here and rant and rave at me but I reckon he may bring it up with me if our paths should ever cross again and from what I have read, they do have a way of trying to come back into the fold to get their supply again.. hence why many are calling them human parasites…

C’s old study buddy and mutual friend of ours called on me the other day and we spoke till almost three in the morning again. He was such a breath of fresh air to be around and he gave me a lot of reassurance in terms of getting back into relationships again telling me not to change and that I was perfectly OK the way I was. He said that he hardly hears from C nowdays but he reckons that it is such a shame in the way things turned out for us. Just hearing these sorts of things lifts me to a better place and I know that in time my own scabs will start to heal. I have mentioned on my blog I may not write in it for much longer but who knows? I have started a much more positive one on here in WordPress whereas the other is on Blogspot. Writing for me is a source of comfort and it helps me to express what really is going through my mind. C received so many letters from me because when were together I sometimes felt that I could not express myself properly due to the way things had turned out. So while things were not too good in that sense, my writing improved.

I must go now ladies as it is almost dinner time here. I have just joined up with a local Business and Professional women group here which my good friend has reccomended as she is a member and would love me to come along. I was initially wanting to do Rotary but the subs are rather high, but these ones are a bit more affordable and it only meets once a month plus a dinner and dessert so that will be a bit easier on my budget. Getting out will be good and meeting others. As I am studying at a distance, it will give me a chance to meet others and perhaps maybe someone else eventually down the track. But to tell you all honestly, I am not really ready for that yet. C has been enough for me to stomach and although my friend who dropped in on Sunday night has feelings for me, I know I am at a vunerable stage right now and fortunately he recognises that and backs off. It is a comfort to know that there are some decent men out there and that they do not have to play some game or some charade all of the time. Joe (no not Jan’s one) my friend is a nice guy and he has alot on his plate to deal with too so this is where we have been there for one another just supporting each other career wise and helping each other whenever we can. Its just a comfort knowing I am not having to walk on eggshells and I can enjoy myself around him without all of the stress. That is the way it should be in any relationship and we should never have to put up with an N again, you girls are so right, the more we read about this sort of thing the better. Hopefully we will choose the right guy next time.

I have started a new blog on WordPress as I have said and that address is http://www.kiwigal.wordpress.com It doesnt have much in it yet but I welcome each of you to come in and say hi in there too.

Big hugs to you all, its a pity we are all so far apart!
Shell :-D

Shell,
First, welcome to WordPress! Love your gravatar :) I’m off to administer Day 5 of standardized testing to my 8-9 year olds. Tomorrow’s the final day and my students voted to have a “Wallace & Grommit” party. We’ll be watching the video AND they’re bringing their stuffed animals. When I come home to my blog, sometimes I feel like I’m leading a double life.

To all of you chatting back and forth, don’t mind me. I just feel like the house mom/mum. I can still remember meeting other people who’d been through similar situations (especially the utter disbelief following the D&D). Initially, we felt the need to replay every detail for the other person – it felt good to tell someone who actually believed us. Then we just got to know each other and realized that we deserved so much better. A fabulous day to all of you.
Always, Jan

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24. Tracy - May 7, 2012

Hi Shell~ I replied via your blog & wondered if you got it- as I never heard back?

T :)

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25. kiwigal007 - May 8, 2012

oops sorry kiwigal007.blogspot.com

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26. Lesley - May 9, 2012

Hi there, courageous ladies,
I hope your day will be a bright one..
Thought I’d share some positives.I’m managing no contact with
my Hollow Man..all numbers /e mails changed,his contacts
deleted and any items I associate with him binned or out of sight.
I came through my wee op in fine fettle.By four in afternoon felt
great.Had reasonable, productive weekend.
I told another supportive friend/work colleague what had happened that I’d been ‘N’d’ and felt the embarrassed pretence that I had been feeling…evaporate.She will be a support in my workplace(I actually teach’Big People’!)
I got my copy of ‘Stalking the Soul’ through and also found this piece by Joshua Foster, which, given some aspects of my situation was enlightening; http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200810/narcissists-dont-make-love
I am also going back to the Lundy Bancroft book’Why does he do that’ at times.’He mentions the term Narcissist rarely but the examples are spot on.I use it to understand the nature of the verbal abuse I put up with and move on from it.
Less positive, I am fighting the urge to obsess.As I mentioned earlier after final discard a few weeks ago,he was spotted by my sis and her friend J online.He had been on some time.
What we didn’t expect(but given his pathology, should have…?),is that he would target J…
They gave me the outline of his’seduction’techniques…basically he moulds himself to the woman’s needs and aspirations like a glove.He sells himself as a soulmate.I could see his frantic,pushy need to secure NSupply!
I didn’t meet him online, in fact he denigrated online dating to me. It seems however, he was using it throughout our time together.
He is off to Europe, France, Italy and is clearly fishing for a travel partner…. He actually claims he has been single for years..!
My physical response to this was remarkable. I actually had to be sick. Do they use the word’Barf’ in America or NZ? Well I barfed for twenty minutes.
However, my strength returned.I said to J,’Nope, tell me no more..'(the urge to wind him up into a frenzy tho’ was overpowering!!).
She agreed to ignore him online completely.This I feel is healthier for me in the long run..today I am having a very sad wry smile about it all.
Thanks for the continued wisdom that this site brings to all Jan. I am going to bake your pecan squares this week. Sound Yummy!

Light shine,
Lesley.

Lesley,
Yes, we say barf! LOL I’m looking forward to reading the link you attached but am off to school. Since today is officially Teacher Appreciation Day, the parents are providing a lunch for the staff, so I think I should get dressed. You sound like you’re doing quite well…considering. I’ll comment more later. Jan

Lesley,
I’ve survived the final day of testing and 31 very enthusiastic students watching “Wallace & Grommit” videos. Whew! The article on Psychology Today is spot on. Joe was a cerebral narcissist. Despite all his sexual posturing, he would have been one to withhold sex as a form of control. My dear friend was involved with a somatic narcissist who went through women like others go through socks. (Thought Joe also talked about his “girlfriends,” they were just acquaintances he used to bolster his self esteem. I think he was actually sexually very ill at ease.) Basically, you can’t believe anything they say, as they’ll say whatever they need to and then deny all culpability. I have some third graders who do the same.

My husband and I saw “Tonight You’re Mine” (on a school night no less!) which is set at the T in the Park music festival in Scotland. We’d actually love to travel to Scotland. I looked up my husband’s family’s tartan. I believe it was purple and green. It looked like something a pimp would wear! Jan

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kiwigal007 - May 9, 2012

Hi Lesley
Great to hear from you!
Well I had to look “Barf” up just now as this girl has never heard of the word but maybe some people may use it here as we still often have alot of ties to “Mother England”. Once I read what it meant I know now you mean to ‘vomit’ and I am very sorry to hear that you vomited when you had read that your old N said that he had been single for years… ha! I hope that your tummy is OK now and that you are eating again now?

Just read your article, interesting that one. Sadly for me the more I got to know C, the more interesting things became. Initally he found it hard to make love to me and we needed a little help and then overtime he soared like a balloon that our love life was fantastic. But the moment we became very close, things started to backfire and as I was starting to cotton on to him, he started to withdrawl and that is when we started to have all sorts of woes and he started to pull back with our love making too which was very hard for me to stomach as one minute he was all on and the next he was all off. This quote fits neatly into what I went through

One might try to withhold sex from narcissistic romantic partners, but other research we’ve done leads us to believe that narcissists would simply look elsewhere to get their sexual needs met. See, narcissists tend to take a “what have you done for me lately” approach to their relationships and are quicker than most to abandon relationships that don’t satisfy their needs (Foster, 2008).

This is precisley how I felt as if I was not being a ‘good girl’ then he would start denying me or I could sense he was actually adding up all the good things I had done before he would then decide whether it was a good idea to make love to me or not…

Hope the finals go well Jan and thank you for us all to vent in here! I have been onto a few sites but I actually enjoy this group as its nice and I have enjoyed getting to know everyone too. Thank you re Gravatar, I love it too :-) WordPress is a bit more upmarket than Blogspot!!

I received some mail for C today from our ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation-Accident insurance levy) as it was forwarded on to me from his old address when he and I and lived in the same town. I opened it and noticed that C was taking the truth regarding his salary as it was not that brilliant but still he gets all his dental, medical and uniforms paid for plus he gets to travel internationally. I see that he owes $138.00 or so to this department but I decided to bin the bill and not forwarded it on. I took it upon myself to have all our mail redirected when I moved a long time ago but an old neighbour sometimes will send stuff on to me. It has been two years since all that took place and I thought stuff it, C has actually had long enough to change all his details, if he gets billed then they can go hunting for him now, he has had plenty of time to notify all his contacts with his new address etc its not up to me now. I know to some of you, I could just forward it on but I really do not want to, its likely like all N’s he will come back into the fold one day but to be honest… its a little early for my liking, anything like this I will tell the old neighbour to bin or if they do forward it to me I will bin it myself. I have done my bit time and time again for C and helped him in so many ways… no wonder he told me I was the only woman that could put up with him.. ha! :-S

Recipe for the pecan squares please Lesley!!! :-D YUM! I hope you have a nice tea or coffee you have with it… My friend in Brighton (UK) has to get his Irish Breakfast tea here while he is visiting as he cannot find it back home and only managed to find some in a one pound shop so he bought up large when he saw it!
Big hugs to you all!
Shell :-)

Shell,
If you click on Recipes on my Category Cloud (I think that’s what you call it.), you’ll find my post called Yes we Pecan! with said recipe. Jan

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Lesley - May 10, 2012

Hey Shell,
I think you need to protect yourself with regard to the cheque,as you say give him no reason to get back in touch.
I still have stuff at the N’s house. He can keep it. My sanity is worth more.
I think this Irish Tea thing is a bit of a ploy on the manufacturer’s side because you get ‘Scottish Blend’ too!They rely on our sense of patriotism and use this to market the same tea,methinks? In the UK,this is really pervasive…you get ‘Yorkshire Blend’ etc. They are all essentially the same in my opinion..(lol)
I am a traitor to my roots because I much prefer coffee!
I had a look at your Blog, hope to go back there tonight..stay
strong. Lesley

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Lesley - May 10, 2012

I’m laughing at the’Pimp’tartan! The trick seems to be to ask for the’hunting version’tartan.The colours are more muted,for all that stalking in Glens! My own’dress’ one is red and yellow..too much. The kilt is psychedelic!
Yes,I am lucky to live here.Edinburgh is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, it’s a great base for travelling round too. I hail from Tayside and am a Dundonian(Dundee) My 22 year old son goes to T in the Park!
Thanks for the comment Jan. I find ‘Joe’ so fascinating in a creepy, insiduous way.What do you think about length of time for a relationship with a Narcissist? Do they always leave when you’re onto them?I feel like I was Columbo about to uncover a suspect.. the N knew this.
My idealisation phase lasted 4-6 months, then a gradual
devaluing of 8-10 months…got worst for another four
months..constant criticism/mood swings…then discard.
Two quick points before I go to work. He trawled locally for
supply, his online shenanigans were in small towns and villages
near the big city where he lived and worked. Seems risky. I don’t have answer for that?
Also, I am lucky in even retaining the amount of self
esteem that I have.. I know I would have ended it soon regardless of what he eventually did.Yet, so many women(and men), are still in the middle of 5,10,20 year relationships… I do think that once you cotton on to the Narc, you’ve got to pick up your heels and run! Thanks for all you do Jan.

Lesley,
Ah, the time thing. That’s a tricky one.
As long as I sat and listened to Joe like a starry-eyed schoolgirl, he was like an actor on stage holding court. I remember telling someone that sometimes he made such odd comments that I felt like he was a serial killer (not literally) and had taken me into his confidence. It was extremely creepy, but on some level fascinating also. But the minute the novelty wore off, that he knew he “had me,” and I began to call him on his BS, he had one foot out the door. When I actually told him he was a N, I ceased to exist.

Then there are Ns who take you on a longer ride (still ending at a cliff). Somatic ones will have you and several other women (unbeknownst to you) in their orbit. I suppose as long as you put up with them and provide a needed service (cooking, money, ego stroking, sex) you can buy more time. There are people who live with people like this for years, even decades! I believe that many of their partners spend a major portion of their life trying to “fix” whatever they seem to think might be broken in the N, only to find that nothing ever changes.

My sister-in-law was married a cerebral N. He emotionally discarded her the day after they were married. She tried to get him to notice her for the next 14 years! He was a nasty piece of work and enjoyed watching her jump through hoops, controlling her and the kids, and withholding everything whether it be money or sex).

Gee, I still haven’t answered your question, have I? I do know that they also seem to fall into two types. Type 1) Those who will disappear once they know that you’ve figured out that they’re a fraud, and 2) Those who will continue to call/text/sext you as long as you’re willing to put up with it. When they run low on new supply, they’ll revert to their old supply to see them through a dry spell.It’s all rather mind boggling!

BTW, I was so glad when I arrived at Heathrow on my first trip and they had a COFFEE bar! One iced latte please! Always, Jan

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Lori - May 10, 2012

Lesley:

Interesting things you’ve written and glad to hear you’re really doing much better. I’m trying to feel some of your good vibes :)

Lori

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27. kiwigal007 - May 9, 2012

Thank you Jan, YUMMY!!! Hope you are on the mend now. Shell :-)

Thanks,
I’ve feeling much better, but now my husband has IT. It’s good that we have a shelf in the medicine cabinet that’s labelled “Flu/Cold/Allergies/Misery.” :) Jan

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Lori - May 10, 2012

I like that “Flu/Cold/Allergies/Misery” That’s very accurate.

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28. Lori - May 10, 2012

Hi Everyone:

I’ve been without a computer for a few days so not able to post and just catching up on everyone’s comments.

I thought what Shell wrote about “being a good girl” which is needed to essentially keep the N in one’s life. And then everything that has been going on for me in the past few days just hit me.

The N I was seeing 2 years ago essentially ignores me when we see each other, he usual turns away when I walk by or leave class. This all started right before he went away for a month last summer. Before that, I thought we were at least friendly and I was surprised when he stopped talking to me. Looking back, I think Iearned too much about who he was behind his mask, and he made it a point of saying how he didn’t want a girlfriend, never wanted one, and why I asked these questions of people (I never asked him questions, he was just ranting about how it was impossible to find true love in NYC and I told him he never takes the time to get to know a person). Since then, he started ignoring me. When I confronted him about the cold shoulder, he glared at me and said, “No talking, no talking please.” I left it alone and haven’t uttered a word to him since, but I do continue to go to the gym and a couple of his classes where I keep to myself or talk with friends. My ex-friend, Patty, whom I met at the gym also slept with him, after me, and has been chasing him, albeit in a subtle manner, since they ended things. She fawns over him, agrees with everything he says or does, and is very good at saying things that appease him. All along, our conversations about him were just the opposite, with her telling me things like, “I know how to play him and you don’t, that’s why he likes me” or “You directly confront him and I don’t that’s why he’s different with me.” So, over the past year, she’s has ceased to be my friend, I think because she sees that he’s not speaking to me anymore and therefore no longer competition for her. That really hurts.

It hurts even more knowing that he treats us differently. I don’t understand why he’s nice to her and not to me. We both slept with him and last summer, he was speaking to me. So what’s the difference? I feel like she’s right, that I am too confrontive or that I don’t know how to read and appease men. At one point, he approached the clerk at the gym and said, “What’s up with Lori, why does she take my classes and why is she always waiting for me at the bus stop?” The clerk, who’s a friend of mine, told me this and said to him, “That’s her bus home and maybe she takes your classes for the exercise.” I heard this and was really annoyed, because I made no attempt to talk to him and stopped going to all but 1 of his classes, and not the one that required me to ride the same bus as him. On the other hand, Patty waits for him after class every night and walks up the stairs with him, and somehow this doesn’t annoy him.

So today, I learn that they started sleeping with each other again, nothing out in the open. Of course, I know he’s been hitting on another woman at another location, and watching that transpire reminds me of how he usually goes after someone. This woman seems to be put off by his attempts, so I envy her for being so much smarter than me. I know lately, woman are not falling for him, perhaps his age is catching up, but he’s not pulling them in or is scaring them off if they’re really young.

So, I sit and wonder, how come Patty and not me? I know it’s stupid of me to think that, but I do. What does she have that I don’t? She managed to get him to come back to her and it just eats me alive. What is wrong with me?

Lori,
You’re asking what’s wrong with yourself because this Black Hole of a man is having sex again with Patty (who sounds like a master manipulator herself!). Hmmm. She’s willing to lower herself and grovel for the prize of being used yet again. I know that’s not what you aspire to. It IS normal to wonder why a N seems to be nice to someone else, yet not you. But of course, the undercurrent is that she is in some way back in his life and you aren’t. But then she’s being used, so she either has low self-esteem or she is using him in her own way. You have to accept the fact that most likely you’ll never know the truth. Even if you did, it wouldn’t make any difference.

Most likely, you are hurting from feeling used and then rejected. You’ve seen what’s under the mask and it’s bugging the hell out of you to see him put on a show for others. I HAD to run into Joe for 9 months after the D&D due to work. He would walk by me as though I was invisible. It was so painful. You can chose to change gyms. Unfortunately, when your lives continue to intersect, it’s very hard to really move on. Always, Jan

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29. kiwigal007 - May 10, 2012

Hi Lesley and Lori and everyone!:-)
I know I do not want to sound like an N today but today is all about me (May 11) its my birthday and a new year and a new me!

This morning I have just had a wee lie in bed and about to start my studies for the day but I thought I best check in here before things get too busy.

Lori, I do not think there is anything wrong with you. From what you have said it sounds like this jerk is playing games with you, silly pathetic little games. They will ask others what is wrong with you sometimes just to see if the person they asked will then go off and tell you, which will make you think of them and then they get all excited knowing you are thinking about them. I could be wrong but if I was not in touch with C (actually I will give his name- Craig) and was not corresponding with him, he would actually start texting my mobile or send me emails asking me if I was OK and then he would proceed to tell me everything he was up to. Keep ignoring him and carry on your day, it is his loss that he is no longer with you and you are worth far more than that. I am trying to say this to myself each day now. I hope that made sense! I just think that you are very brave to still go to the gym that he is part of too, that would be something I would find uncomfortable myself. You are a strong girl! :-D Do not busy yourself with worry about Patty, I would not even dream of letting someone like her bother me, some friend huh? Sorry I was horrified when you told us how she and him had got on with each other.

Lesley, thank you for your message. Just thought I would say it was a bill that I received for C not a cheque. The last apartment/flat that I lived in before I moved here was actually his for several years as I went housesitting for almost a year and in that time he got into the Navy. As his flat was avaliable and I needed a place after I had got my things out of storage, C offered me his place and I accepted it for a few months. So when I moved here I just had our mail redirected for a few months and then it was up to him to let everyone know for himself and for his mail to change their details and he failed to do that with some of it which is how I have ended up with this one from the ACC. If he was sincere and things were different I would probably send this up to him but right now I am trying to avoid him and apply the NO CONTACT rule knowing full well that undoubtedly he will come to my doorstep one day. In the good old days I did so much for him, little things which I just did out of love and thoughtfulness, this week I told myself to chuck this in the bin as I would have thought that he would have the maturity to have told everyone his new address now so its not my problem anymore… I cannot believe I just said that but I know that he cannot expect me to run around after him even now. If he comes back to me and asks I will just say I never got it and thats for him to work out now.

I think that for all the love in the world I gave this man, I too had someone saying I do not want a relationship and when he did actually want me, I just want something laid back, not too heavy. I want a simple life etc etc When I wrote my response to his bombshell letter I told him, you always said you wanted a simple life, yet yours was far from it and you hid behind some sort of mask…

Oh the poor man!

NOT…

On that note my dear friends I must dash and start my day. I hope this all makes sense! I still think about this idiot regularly but I know that when I received that mail this week, the only way I could deal with it was to dispose it. Like he dumped me, I will dump this. We all deserve so much better than crumbs…

Big hugs to you all and how are the studies going Lori? I am in the midst of another biggie at the moment.

Talk to you soon,
Shell :-)

Shell,
Belated Birthday greetings! My brother’s birthday is May 8th. I also had two students who celebrated birthdays this week, so it was cupcakes galore! I hope you treated yourself to something special. Sometimes what we most deserve is a pat on the back – from ourselves. :) Jan

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Lesley - May 11, 2012

Shell,tried to log into your wordpress blog but having probs over creation of password.Keeps on saying not recognised? Can you help,cheers Les

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kiwigal007 - May 12, 2012

Hi Lesley, I am not sure exactly why that is happening. I am new to WordPress. Jan, would you mind helping us with this as I am not sure why this is happening for Lesley. Maybe you need to create an avatar? Or perhaps try a different password to the one you are trying to use?? I am afraid I am not too sure as nothing has come up on my blog as yet.
Shell :-)

Jan (the World’s Lamest IT person) speaking. It could be the settings on your blog. I sent you a comment from the forums. Having people log in to comment is a recent change to WordPress (March 2012) – it seems some are not too keen about this. Lesley commented on my blog without any difficulty though, so that’s why I’m thinking it could be you need to enable comments. But then again, I’ve had problems before only to realize something wasn’t plugged in. >blush< Jan

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30. Tracy - May 11, 2012

Lori~ RUN!!!! Stay away!

I cannot express this strongly enough. Please. You simply have to see your worth beyond this person- they aim to destroy you! Truly! They count on your compassion – please, please understand that they do not “feel”- as you do. NC (no contact) no way, is the only solution.

If this sounds dire- it is. Any hint of going back will sentence you to misery.

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31. Lesley - May 11, 2012

Hey Lori,
I can see you are still caught up in this situation. I feel that you should be asking instead’What’s wrong with the N or even what’s wrong with Patty?’-rather than internalise any blame from this situation… If I were you, which I am not, (I can only speak from my own heart), I would find another gym and more positive situation.
Of course it’s not easy, I find myself obsessing about what my ex is doing,saying about me etc but….the operative word in that last sentence is that he is my’ex’.
You don’t need to be around him,Nada,not even for a minute.
As he is a Narcissist he will always turn the situation around to make it look like you are mourning him or hanging around.Get yourself away from the place and he will stop doing this…he will probably start on Patty or one of his newer conquests instead.
I find that if I am obsessing it is because I am remembering the Idealisation phase and it’s perfection rather than the reality of the situation.The reality for you,me, all on this site is that we were used and abused by N’s. Horribly.
Past tense….this does not have to be our future.
Lori,you give such heartfelt insight to others so I say this in praise of how you are’ Give yourself your own wise advice?’
Why don’t you spend a week or two of the sessions you would normally spend at the gym checking out a new one.Go and see it,check out the facilities and the people there.
It is no loss of face. Let these dark souls get on with it. You deserve better.
Lesley

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32. Lori - May 12, 2012

Jan, Lesley, Shell, and Tracy:

Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. I really appreciate it and see how lucky I am to have the friends that I have around me physically, as well as those out there in lands far away. I would absolutely love to have each of you over for a huge bowl of pasta and wine!

Jan, you are correct in that I do not aspire to being used again by this man. I realize that Patty has low self-esteem and is trying to figure out a way to keep herself in his life. She is tenacious, like a rash, and will never abandon ship. However, given all this, I have this fear, perhaps based in jealousy, that their relationship will work out, they will be happy, and I will sit and wonder, “Why didn’t I move forward last summer with him when he was interested in me?” My logical brain sees how he uses women, hits on them relentlessly, and will most likely continue to cheat and use, as he’s 50 and has done this his entire life. However, there’s the part of me that wonders how Patty has managed to continue to be friends with him even after sleeping with him and returning to the gym and I haven’t? Is the difference merely because I told him I wasn’t comfortable with others in his life and she pretends she is? I have seen what’s behind the mask and she know’s what’s there, but she pretends the mask is real. Is that how we differ?

I confided in her a lot, and see that my confidences and friendship were basically a front to keep tabs on me as I was her competition. I do feel rejected and used by her, so there’s this sick wish that I have where I would love for any woman but Patty to have a wonderful relationship with him. I would love for some woman to come along and he would change for any woman BUT Patty. Thinking this makes me feel like less than a person, but it’s what’s floating in my head. Is he putting on a show for her too?—You’re right Jan, that is a question I ponder.

So, I talked to my friends, and looked at other options for classes. I know I have to realize that the weight loss and transformation I achieved via his class was not due to his waving his magic d*ck and granting me a thinner body (Sorry Jan for the colorful comment on your blog). I did a 4 mile run OUTSIDE today and took a boxing class at a another location. Interestingly, the punching bag looked like Gavin and Patty throughout my entire workout (there I said their names). I don’t think I will be able to move my arms tomorrow :)

I got my copy of “Stalking the Soul” today. I’m reading it after I finish this. On a positive note, I finished my last clinical today. Only a final exam stands between me and graduation so I can call myself a Nurse Practitioner :)

Thanks again for all the positive words and concern. I really would love to cook for all of you :)

Lori

Lori,
When I read the chapter on confusing communication, it was like the clouds parted and I could finally see the sun. That SO captured the essence of my close encounter. I LOVE colorful comments and the magic d*ck comment made me LOL!
As you said yourself, Patty is willing to let the mask stay in place – to put up with his act. That’s not a relationship, that’s willingly choosing to be used/or vice versa. I do remember actually thinking (rational thought tends to get in the way when trying to sort out Ns) that Joe would actually appreciate me MORE because I’d seen beneath the mask and was willing to “help him.” Not so.

It’s also very common to believe that things will work out for them with another person. But anyone who’s 50 and unable to commit will just others as safe ports in the storm. Because they thrive on novelty, getting to know someone only lessens their appeal. Even if it appears that he’s in a relationship, by his very nature, he’s incapable of one. Appearances can be deceiving. But you already know that. :) Jan

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33. kiwigal007 - May 13, 2012

Hi Lesley
Please try again as I tried tweaking a few things on my blog but if that doesnt help, I will re read some suggestions Jan gave me. She has commented to you too on here.

Hope you all had a great weekend. Lori, we need to catch up and do a cookoff together!! :-D

Talk to you all soon,
Shell :-)

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Lesley - May 13, 2012

Success, I think Shell. Seemed to work this time L.

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kiwigal007 - May 14, 2012

YAY! :-) thank you for your messages too Jan. Sorry its been busy at this end. Hope that you all had a lovely Mother’s Day? Have emailed you too Lesley, just to say I picked up your poem etc… thank you!

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34. Tracy - May 13, 2012

Re: NPD and the aftermath. Every person is different.

I wish for anyone dealing with NPD to leave (NC).

Not my call, I guess.

I can help – if you need it….google

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35. Alma - September 22, 2012

Thanks oh so much! I known this woman five months ago and in my case I got to figure her early on in the relationship. When she wanted to start the drama I ended quickly. She got all confuse and try to use my bipolar condition to her advantege. She try to convince everyone (even my Mom) that I was crazy and of course this will entitle her to always been correct cause, you know, I am insane. I happen to be 15 years older than her and a very intuitive person. I could not figure out at first what was going but I always feel like something was out of wack. I was sure she was trying to make me insane. She used gaslighthing tecnics on me. It did not work. Now she is very confuse. I am very independent and she has give up on convincing me to move and live with her. She was married for 6 years and then she realize she was gay. She lived for 6 more years with her first girlfriend who happens to have mental problems. She make sure everyone who knows this girl tell me that indeed this girl has mental problems. I am a songwriter and singer (in my spare time cuase I have to work to make a living) This seems to impress her a lot.
She started on the compliments to a point that made me unconfortable. Her children adore me I supose because Im very affectionated with them. Dont take me wrong, she is a very responsable Mom and she is very affectionated but at the same time she keeps them isolated. Her friends are far and few. She was very kind with me in the beginning but I always feel like something was off. I always feel like she lies and changes stories just to look good. She is this awesome woman and all her conversations turn back to her. She listen to me in order to figure my weak spots. I think my Guardian Angel has been working over time. My Mom has been very firm and opposed to the idea of me moving with her. She was abused sexually by her own sister when she was 6 years old and I guest there is when she turn into a narcissist because the abuse only stop when she injure her sister. She ask me to forgive her because she was very abusive verbally (text messages) and that is when I confirm she is a very angry person but can pretend she is all together very well. Now she is back to the conquest mode. Now she is learning about nutrition and making plans to go back and study. I love her but I love myself even more. I feel so sorry for her children but they are not my kids. In the past I got into this missions of mercy with other couples I have. That is over. I am keeping my distance. And I know she is smart enough to figure this out. Thanks for all your help. Narcissist are so damage and is so sad. Excuse my english but spanish is my first language. Be blessed.

I saw from incoming hits that you’re either in Puerto Rico or the Philippines. Don’t worry about your English because your message comes through loud and clear. This woman is extremely manipulative and controlling. Narcissists are drawn to vibrant people, but will also go for someone with a disability or issue as they can use this in the future against that person. The N I knew seemed to always be dating women who had a physical issue (seizures so they couldn’t drive, MS, etc.) so that enabled him to feel more powerful. If they tried to get too close, he could use whatever ailed them as his excuse for the reason he couldn’t be with them. More important, this woman is very controlling. She may be loving mother, but she maintains a tight control over her children. And she would do the same to you. There is no changing her. No matter what happened in her childhood (and they have some really sad stories) that’s not something YOU can mend. It does not give them an excuse to abuse (verbally or physically) others. :) To protect yourself, you must be no contact with this woman. Yes, those “missions of mercy” come quite natural to some women who are natural “helpers.” But, you will get burned if you get close to the fire. And badly. Pay your Guardian Angel some overtime. :) You actually know what you need to do to move forward and survive/thrive. Always, Jan

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36. Dee - January 18, 2013

I was introduced to my N by my mother. My N and I dated for 5 months. He was the most charming man I had ever met I surely thought we had a connection. We were planning a vacation to take a cruise. He told me he wanted me to get a passport….I asked him what were his intentions with me. He angrily replied “I have Zero Intentions with you”. I couldn’t believe he lashed out at me like that. I hung up the phone in tears and immediately texted him and told him he hurt my feelings really bad. He never responded and hasn’t called me in a week. I refuse to call him because I know that he wants me to call and apologize…for upsetting him. I miss him and sometimes I want to call but I have to keep my self respect. I believe I am in the devaluing stage or who knows discarded…..It hurts really bad he’s the first person I’ve dated in 2 years of getting over my ex N….Now, I ran back into another N.

Dee,
I can’t tell you how many people have escaped one N and thought, “Well, now I know better” only to inadvertently hook up with another one. His comment is so utterly insensitive and cruel! He has shown you his true nature. If it’s his attempt to devalue, seize the attempt to be the one to discard him. Jan

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lesley - January 19, 2013

Hi Dee,
As Jan says this is common and sadly both of your Narcs are out there and not empathic to the pain and regret you feel,nor are they sorry….
You may hear from the latest one again,if he wants a refix of you(always temporarily).
There is something sadistic and with-holding about the man you describe as if he had to create joy and hope in you and then destroy it?Shudder.
Take it as read that he has left the relationship…as every minute you give to him in communication,texts e mails or phonecalls is simply shoring up his Narc supply.
One thing we often say on here Dee….is believe them when they tell you what they are.
Sometimes they cannot help but reveal themselves?
So,awful as it may be for you…..you’ve got to believe that he has Zero Intentions towards you…Tough Love required. He would just continue to devalue you.
Move on….

You are simply worth more.

Light Shine
Les

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37. lynnek2 - February 15, 2013

I found this website after someone sent me a link to an article about NPD. Honestly, to hear many of you say things I have either thought about at one time or experienced first hand has been utterly cathartic. I’m in the process of divorcing a man who is absolutely textbook NPD. I have spent years isolated from friends, lost my spark and was too embarrassed to admit that something was horribly wrong. I came back from my honeymoon and within a month things began to slowly unravel. I wish I had a dollar for every time I thought I was losing my grip on reality. He was the consummate charmer. His ex-wife was crazy, and he was never short on stories of his previous relationships (which woman he gave her first orgasm, the different sexual exploits he had with others, quite frankly horrified me. Why was he telling me this? I could do no right. I’ve been accused of having an anger management problem, that I was mentally ill, a drama queen, Mary Martyr, insecure, jealous, paranoid, an unfit mother and the list goes on. I married in 2008, moved out in 2011 and he managed to convince me that he wanted our marriage to work and would do whatever it took to salvage it. I quickly learned that counseling was really just for the counselor/therapists to “fix” me and my issues. I’m also a nurse and extremely empathetic (read: codependent) and very open to fixing thyself. Eventually, I was taken aside and told that I deserved better. Being a strong Christian and feeling that I was somehow disappointing God, I kept trying to make things better. I’m fond of the phrase “definition of insanity” and sad to admit that there is a wall with the imprint of my head banging against it repeatedly. I literally couldn’t see the forest for the trees, but knew and believed in my gut that I was NOT the crazy one. I found a terrific therapist who is helping me get through this dance of insanity back to the side of “normal” (read: people who love you & treat you with respect not control and the ever popular mind f*ck). I am a very organized, Type A person who used to think I had control issues (most nurses will admit to this…being responsible for the lives of others kind of drives you in that direction), but now realize I have NOTHING to worry about. Why? Because I lived with the ultimate con-man, control freak. I learned the hard way that calling a N out is a huge mistake. Gradually, my self-esteem disappeared and my family began to worry constantly about me. He made me believe that without him, I was nothing. I was in great physical shape, thought I looked good for 40-ish, but nothing would make him notice me or want to spend time with me. He was fond of telling everyone what a great father he was and how great his kids were. He is 7 years older than I am. I was apparently the eye candy (or so others told me he made comments like that), but that’s about the only purpose I served. Well, that, and to help finance his life. Truth is, I had a great career, and was extremely independent and joyful. I could find humor in anything. Then a friend confided in me, that she missed who I was. I lost the little light that made me shine. I realized that i had been retreating from friends and family because I didn’t think I had anything to offer anymore. After dealing with password protected everything (emails, bank accts, credit cards, lines of credit, online dating profiles, porn websites, porn videos), losing my financial security (one therapist told him he had no problem sharing his liabilities, he just didn’t want to share his assets), finding out he had a very healthy porn addiction and then discovering his finances were a lie (many credit cards, most maxed out), I transferred my assets. This was a second marriage (still very good friends with my 1st husband) so we had mostly separate accounts. I didn’t know how bad things were (since he kept everything under lock & key) until the IRS sent me a lovely letter informing me that my taxes hadn’t been filed for 2 years. With the proof in my hand and my credit report in shambles, I confronted him only to be told that he was protecting me because I couldn’t handle the info due to my back injury. I have never dealt with anyone like this in my life. He was the master of spin. He could turn everything around and I would find myself apologizing for something he did. I finally hit the wall. I’m still hurt and embarrassed that I could be duped because I thought I was a fairly good judge of character. What I’m starting to understand though is that it was all just a facade. There wasn’t love, mutual respect, honesty, caring, or anything that is part of a healthy relationship. It was a mirage. The D and D was the most destructive force in my life. On some levels, I still don’t get how a person can just destroy another human being so completely and feel nothing. That’s just so far from my reality (I guess that’s good, no?) the sting is still ever-present. As I work through my divorce (and suffer the consequences of having him ruin my name & reputation), I know that I will come out of this stronger for the experience, but I would never wish this on my worst enemy. I found the courage to contact his first wife and her stories were just as heart-breaking. That said, I doubt her sending me articles would’ve swayed me…I thought I was the “one”. I’m laughing as I type that. He is now finding that with the support of my family and friends, I’m a fighter. I’ll be damned if I will go away quietly. I’ll take what the law says I’m due. I think he thought he could crush my heart, soul and self-esteem so completely that I would go away with my tail between my legs. I got a Valentine’s text from him that I read and deleted. He’s angry because he is spinning out of control right now since he can no longer control me. His family lives on the other side of the country. All part of the NPD design. Yet another way to remain gate-keeper of the illusion. As in, they don’t see it, so it didn’t happen. I’m sorry for the lengthy post. I have spent two days reading all of your blogs, comments, posts etc. I cannot tell you how helpful all of you have been with your insights. I will find myself again. I know it will take time. I used to be so afraid of being alone. I am now grateful to be alone. It allows me clarity. I look forward to dating again one day once I have healed myself. Blessings to all of you :-)

Lynne,
Your story unfortunately is classic. You’ve quite articulately laid out how the N is a master of “Impression Management.” As a teacher, I so get the nurse thing. I’ve often said that teachers, nurses, and social workers are cut from the same cloth. It can be an incredible asset, but also a liability when you’re dealing with someone with ZERO apathy and you didn’t realize that people like this roamed the earth under the guise of being human!
I think when you’re with a narcissist, you’re actually always alone as they don’t think in terms of “we.” They are there physically, but mentally checked out. And the lengths they go to convince you that YOU are the crazy one! Congrats to you for seeing through this. And yes, feeling duped, is something we all initially struggle with. Never again because now you know. So glad you’re free of this emotional vampire. My sister-in-law was married for 14 years to one. The D&D began the day after she was married. He managed to destroy her credit and almost her self-esteem. All the while she was hoping her husband would realize what a wonderful family and home he had. But he didn’t care and he never would. All the best to you and thank you for sharing your story. It will help so may others. Always, Jan
My wonderful readers have provided SO much support to one another so that no one should ever feel alone in surviving such madness.

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38. Dawn - April 21, 2013

Hello All! I am new to this site. This Site is a SOUL Rejuvenator!!! I am sooooo excited to have found a place that I can share my pain, bare my soul, so that one day I can again feel like a wholly functioning HUMAN again. Thank you sooo much to everyone here and to Jan.

I have spent the better part of two days reading all of your posts and I have to say I feel like I know each one of you.

I have always been the type of person who wears her heart on her sleeve! I met my N 12 years ago and I was like a moth to a flame.

I saw the BAD BOY image and set out to make him mine. It was very tumultuous right from the beginning. I started to think I was crazy about 2 months in and I even had a friend take me to the hospital to see the on call psychiatrist. I got very physical in the relationship. That is my one serious regret! I looked and felt like a stark raving lunatic. I think even my kids started to wonder( not his). I did not handle all of the crazy making well at all. I even gave him a broken nose on our first valentines day together. He blamed me for everything. Everything was always a double standard. His kids could do something but my kids could not and his excuse was my kids live close and his live 4 hours away. It was disgusting and very infuriating. At the beginning I had to get rid of all my photos if any other man was in them and he would make me fight for the like from him. To make a longer story shorter. Lol. Fast forward- I was seriously injured almost 2 years ago and needed to depend on him more. He could not wait to get out…. He left in December. Before he went he put a huge rift between myself and a couple of his family members, how you ask? Well it was not that difficult he just had to pull one of his double standards out and voila! I went off like a fire cracker on Canada Day! The day he left he could not do enough for me. I am now terrified as I am living in OUR home co-owned together. He pays the mortgage and I pay the household bills and our debt which is hefty. I have a psychologist and she was the one who pointed out this horrifying disorder to me. BTW, we always had a very good sex life and when I started to see my psychologist he stopped having sex and blamed it on my anger issues. He left and I felt great for about two months and then it hit the fan. I see now where he has maneuvered this whole thing to where he wants it to go. He has not moved a single thing aside from clothes out of our house, but he would come around every three weeks or so and say I want to get some thing and then say not right now. I got soooo wrecked ever time that I finally moved the things he may want out onto the back porch. At that point I still had hope, sooo I could not bear to keep hearing that. I did not contact him . He always came to me. Then he rerouted the gas bill and tried to blame me and he would come and move my garbage so the garbage men would not take it away. The best part is now he has admitted himself into the hospital as HE has had a NERVOUS BREAKDOWN!!!! OMG! I am Seething! Seriously and has been telling me every time he would happen by that at the end of April he is no longer paying the Mortgage on the house. Well guess what, he is in the ward and not paying the mortgage. I have a lawyer and the house is up for sale and could not go quick enough…

Thank you soooooooooo much for letting me unload this. I feel like I am going to go crazy!!! Please Help!!!

Hi Dawn,
Welcome. We’ve all been there though losing your house is always a scary prospect. Our stories are different, but ultimately, the lack of empathy and crazy making behavior is something they all share. Although numerous people comment on my blog, it is not actually a forum. That said, I do have a lot of readers who have so much hard-earned wisdom to share because, as I said, they know what it’s like to feel so used and abused.
So I take it you are not married, but you co-own a house? It’s so common when you need an N’s help/support the most – due to an illness or crisis – for them to quickly abandon ship. I don’t know how things work in Canada, but you might want to consult a legal aid attorney (free/reduced cost) to sort out what you can do, so that if he does default on the house, you don’t lose your investment or credit. They ALWAYS have an excuse for why they can’t deliver and usually it boomerangs back to be YOUR fault. So sorry you’re in this mess. He sounds like he’s conveniently had a “breakdown” so as to abdicate responsibility for the house. The fear of losing the roof over your head really colors your view of the world, so it’s important that you find out what your options are. You can put HIM on hold as he’s not going to change – EVER. You need to look out for yourself and your kids.
Always, Jan

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Tracy - April 21, 2013

Exactly my take too, Jan.

This ruse of admitting himself is to duck responsibility on the house. He might even have devised a story which places her at the blame for his current “mental breakdown”. They’re very good at setting a stage that the unsuspecting target walks right into.

I just hope he’s actually been paying on the house, to be truthful (that it isn’t in default right now?). Did he have the account notifications sent to him or to Dawn? Has he maybe taken that money & put it into a hidden, personal account? Sorry to add more to an already bad situation, but Dawn needs to check.

To Dawn- do whatever it takes to extricate him, forever, from your life. If it took claiming bankruptcy, I’d do it. Separate everything you hold together. Utilities, credit cards, etc (if you can pay the balance & then take yourself off each account- in person).

And no, you’re not the crazy one. But you are the only one who can end it.

Good luck.

Tracy,
Thanks so much for your willingness to always offer a kind word and some sage advice to others. You always have an interesting take on things that I so appreciate. Always, Jan

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Dawn - April 21, 2013

Hi All! Thank sooo much for your reply’s! I am soooooo angry. Just when I think he could not possibly stoop any lower! He ups the ante… Let me start by saying that 3 weeks ago my last living Grandparent passed away. This is when I initiated NC. He came 4days after to give his condolences, I thanked him and told him I was busy and closed and locked the door. Very empowering! This was on Tuesday. On Friday I went to my grandmothers funeral,I was not home for 10 mins and there was a knock on the door, I was in the washroom and could not get the door. When I went to the door finally no one was there. I went down the driveway and saw his truck turning the corner, I went back in the house. Went out a few moments later and the most beautiful bouquet of flowers were there. Sunday morning I went out to get a coffee and who is Conveniently sitting in the coffee house parking lot? I just kept driving through the drive through and then came home. Now all of a sudden he is in the hospital…
My mistake is that I told him he is a narcissist before he left. I am sure he has had everybody and their dog look it up and now I am the narc. I feel like I start to get on with my life and then he does something to try to pull me back in. I am going to stay on course with NC. I just wish this house would sell. As long as I am still living in it he has a measure of control over me. His sister and I were very close and he made sure 1 month before he left that he destroyed that. I did not see it at the time. I have changed all my numbers and removed myself and him from each others credit cards. Did this the day after he left. Speaking of credit, his daughter started to message me on Facebook and told me I was evil and had fraudulently used his name for credit that he apparently did not know about. If they only knew!!! This is the hardest part for me, The Injustices! I have had to fight to clear my name my entire life, I have recently realized that both of my parents are also Narcissists.. I gave him back his credit card and his truck key the day after he left. He did not give me back mine. Soooo I figured he tried to pass off the supplementary card of his form my credit as a card I gave him back that is in his name and he knew nothing about. Disgusting! As I mentioned before because of how I have handled matters with yelling and screaming and trying to get him to get it all the time. I DO look like the angry woman he has portrayed me to be. This signing himself into the hospital business serves sooooo many purposes for him. Apparently he already has a young girl on his arm. This is not the first time he has done this. There is sooo much I wish I could share, however I am afraid he has people checking up on sites to see. This man has used his own child! I am very frustrated and still confused although thanks to this site I am able to be understood. Thank you sooo much.

Dawn,
Concerning his response to the death of your last living grandparent. Like many Ns, he sounds like a Master of the Grand Gesture with his bouquet. You can be sure that he’s gone to great lengths to make sure his/your friends think YOU are the crazy one. As Tracy said, be very careful whom you confide in and immediately sort out finances/credit cards. My sister-in-law’s ex-N owed her a small fortune for child support and then finally paid her $30,000. Later, she learned he’d taken out a cash advance off one of HER old credit cards, so SHE owed the money.
Having a legal separation might help to sort out the financial responsibilities. You didn’t say how old your children are or if they are living with you at this time. Is that a factor? In any case, the link Tracy provided is interesting indeed as anytime you’ve been with someone for over a decade (and you had serious concerns two months in), you need to consider codependency issues, so that you can move on and reclaim your life. Jan

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Tracy - April 21, 2013

Hi again Dawn,

I wrote what I did (in my reply to Jan’s reply to you) because I’ve been there, too. I found out that credit cards had been applied for (& denied, thank pete!) & that there were debts everywhere– after I’d left. In order to keep my name/credit clear, I had to pay them all off & then remove my name from the accounts. Ditto the smear campaign & girl in the wings.

I recall reading a site once where it had an N quote something to the effect: “If you try to leave/tell anyone– I’ll make sure YOU look like the crazy one”. And they do, and we do (by the time we get away, we feel nuts!).

The point is- they are disordered & this is their realm. They live in a make-believe world & they set stages & manipulate as a matter of course. They do it as easily as you & I breathe. It is their nature & they do not change.

You have to stay away & be careful what you say & in whom you place your trust. I know it sounds paranoid, but any past, shared friends will be off-limit as far as telling any plans to or sharing any of it. You have to go into stealth mode & simply cut it off & live each day as new. It will take a while, but you’ll pull through.

Here’s a site that has some good info:

http://www.chameleongroup.org.uk/npd/coping.html

T :)

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Dawn - April 21, 2013

Sorry Jan, yes we are Married!this man is as sweet as pie to everyone. He is quiet and mild and would walk into a room and go sit in the corner like a frightened little boy. This is why it has been so difficult for me to understand all of this. Most things I have read about narcissism, he is loud and obnoxious in your face kind of guy. Mine is not like that. Very calm! However, try to ask him why he does the things he does and you end up in a 5 hour one sided conversation with him sitting there looking like he has just been beaten to death… The only input he gives to the convo is to start it all over again.he just never gets it. My favorite though is when after this convo or fight he would then get on the phone and tell his mother or sister while in front of me how he gets it! I just wanted to pull my own hair out… Why can this not be a normal break up? He pays what he needs to pay and I pay what I need to pay until the house sells and then we go on about our business separately? To me this seems NORMAL! Btw, my kids are all grown and gone I am 43 and have 4 grand kids. I love it! Thanks again, Dawn

Dawn,
I just asked about your kids and then scrolled down and got the answer. And grandkids! I’ve been thinking of writing a post about the type of N you describe. Yes, most people envision Narcissists as people who walk into a room and turn heads. They ooze self confidence and power. The N who started me on this journey could almost blend into the woodwork! In a group of people, he wasn’t the one regaling people with stories about himself (though he was happy to do that when he had you by himself). So it was often hard for me/others I told to reconcile this seemingly “mild mannered” person with some of the extremely cruel things he said and did. He can’t do a normal breakup because he is NOT normal. What you are describing makes too much sense and these people thrive on drama and manipulation. Jan

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39. Dawn - April 21, 2013

Thank you Tracy:) that was a fabulous read! Every time I start to focus on ME, HE is lurking around the corner! I almost feel like I can not allow myself to get happy as he is waiting there for me. On a good note though! Up until I started NO CONTACT I could literally feel this man and I knew when he was coming over and even if he left town. It was Creepy! I was mistaking that for LOVE, how messed up was that??? I am going to try to focus on me more today and even if just for today! Thanks again and feel free to write anytime. The loneliness is killing me! Lol.

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40. Dawn - April 24, 2013

Hi Jan! Since I last was here, my N drove past the house three times and someone was always here( my kids or my Aunt). So he would just drive past as he can’t D&D and have witnesses and he also can not face these people after ALL the Lies he has told.. He was probably getting upset at this point as he also had to return to the Psyc Ward by a certain time. Well…. Yesterday, my son was here and we were sitting out back talking and I heard the front door bell and went to see and of course who is standing there….? No! Not my N, it was a police officer and he said that my N was outside and wanted some important papers. Thank goodness I knew this particular officer and I asked if I could talk to him and explained very calmly what has been taking place. I said he could have his papers and I brought down the 3 stacks to put out front for him to get them. The officer spoke to me more and asked me if my N has mental issues and I said well… I am not a doctor but from my experience I would have to say something is definitely not right. He asked if I changed the locks and I told him I did not change the locks per se, I added a lock as I am here by myself and have injuries too boot. He said that my N was making a big deal about the issue of the locks and let him listen to a message I have saved from my N on my home phone where he says he does not care if I change the locks and I can do what I need to do. Then I told him I do not know why my N has called him today as he has never had a problem coming here before and the officer told me that was the weird part as he did not call them to come he just flagged him down on the street as the officer happened by. We then realized why he has done this! My son shared with my N one time that he has a huge fear of police men and almost hyperventillates when he encounters one. Sooooo, he must of been mad that he could not get near me for days because my son has been here. This is all way to confusing and distorted. Jerry Springer would turn this away. Lol.. I think I am on to his thinking now, however if you have any words of wisdom to add I would appreciate that. Thanks. Btw, those important papers he needed right away, he left half of them where the officer asked me to put them. Coincidence maybe, but I doubt it. Thanks again. I am a little nervousness as to his next move as he keeps upping the ante as I am not having any contact. Thanks, Dawn

Yikes!
Don’t know what to make about him flagging down a cop, but it sounds like the officer had an inkling that something was not right with him. You gave him an honest answer and you might want to make sure if any cops stop by in the future that they write down what you say, so it’s on the record. You can ask them to make a note. It was good that you saved the message on the phone. Sounds like your N is drama prone? He dragged himself out of the psych ward to get some papers and then left some behind? Yes, even Jerry Springer might say this was too over the top for him. Hold tight and continue to document. Sounds like the Academy Award winning performance is yet to come. YAWN! LOL Jan

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41. Tracy - April 26, 2013

Keep the NC going. Now that he’s done this, anything more will absolutely begin to look uber- odd to the police. Keep your notebook & keep writing- EVERYTHING- no matter what. Very important to note time & specifics. He WILL trip up.

Stay alert & don’t buy one word he says.

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42. Dawn - April 26, 2013

Thank you Jan and Tracy! Your comments always help me feel at little less Crazy! I am documenting everything, however, I am sooooo tired of feeling that I am ParaNoid about what on earth this guy is going to do next. So freaked out about it that I went to the police station this morning and made a report. The officer believed me and I recorded all the phone messages for him to hear and he made a report. I just told him that I have barely slept which is absolutely true. I am trying to sleep with one eye open. So they know. Thank you sooooo much for your support. This is Exhausting! :)

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43. Tracy - April 28, 2013

Hi Dawn,

I’m glad you went to the police about this. It may be exhausting (it is, definitely)- but right now you’ve just shifted into the driver’s seat, believe it or not. He’s getting sloppy & becoming a bit pathetic as he tries to wrest control back again. All of the stuff he tries, if you think about it that way, is just him being his pathetic self. This is the REAL him. Skittering around & thinking of ways to reach you.

Sounds like you’re the one in control now, doesn’t it?

NC. None. Everything written down (think of it as another nail in the coffin- every, little thing he does sinks his own ship). I got to the point where it didn’t bother me in the least- I jotted it down & went about my business of ignoring that the same way you eventually have to ignore an attention-seeking toddler.

Isn’t there anyone you know who could come over to keep an eye on things so that you can get some sleep?

You hang in there.

Dawn,
I can’t think of any better advice than Tracy’s. N’s tend to count on wearing you down, so just give in. When you stay strong (even though sleep deprived), you ARE in control though I imagine it’s moment by moment. Jan You ARE doing the right thing.

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44. Dawn - May 4, 2013

Thank-you Both,
Your advice is greatly appreciated! It is very difficult to see that I am in the drivers seat, with all the craziness around me all the time. I went and lived my own life yesterday and when I got back home there was a phone message from my Lawyer. I was injured badly in an accident so I have a lawyer for that. As it is right now I can not return to work. My lawyer called and wants to know why I am sending out resumes for work if I can not work. Said this could seriously hurt my case. I Have Not Sent Out Resumes!!!! This man is working VERY hard to destroy my life. I am losing my desire to keep going! Thanks for listening. Dawn

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45. Tracy - May 4, 2013

Hi Dawn,

To me, this is a form of “identity theft” where the perpetrator isn’t “stealing” directly, but rather is attempting to libel you by dishonestly “posing as you”, & engaging in activities designed to harm you mentally & possibly monetarily.

I’d have your lawyer write up how/why/when he came to have information that supposedly you had been sending out resumes. I’d want a run-down of EXACTLY what the chain of events were that brought this to his attention. I’d want a LIST of what agencies or businesses received your resume & on what date (as it relates to the previous events & this being retaliation on your ex’s part).

I’d then go to those places, in person, & get those resumes back. They were probably all mailed or emailed in. See if any were hand delivered & if not, get the email of the sending party. If you’re denied any of this, make a note of that, too- the person you speak with, the time, & the date. Let them know they may be named in a court proceeding by abetting an identity theft/stalking crime & by not divulging how they came to have a copy of your own personal resume, which you did not give to them.

I’d then take that paperwork & I’d bring it to the police- preferably to the same officer(s) you’ve already dealt with. Don’t wait- do it while it’s all still fresh. I’d see if you can press charges- now- based on his stalking history:

http://da.co.la.ca.us/stalking/

Take the reins & put him on the hot seat. He won’t expect this, trust me. They never expect you’re smart enough to defend yourself in the same clever ways that they use. Let your ex keep digging that hole…

Dang, Tracy. I want you on my legal team! Great advice. It’s a good idea to ask the lawyer the best way to go about this, so Dawn is doing this with his/her knowledge and support. You are so right that this IS a form of identity theft and I do believe that with documentation it becomes abundantly clear that his intention is retaliation. And the idiot is literally leaving a paper trail that will come back to bite him. Jan

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46. Fight Facebook Frauds - October 5, 2013

When a Narcissist zeros in on a new source of supply, he (or she) is on their best behavior. The Academy Award-winning performance they give has been perfected by years of being “on stage” – in the sense that they are literally performing a role in what the rest of us call “life.” They cling to this role and rarely vary from the script. It’s worked before…”

You are being plagiarized by Facebook “Surviving the narcissist relationship.”

Thank you for calling this to my attention. I have to admit with a name like Fight Facebook Frauds, I thought this comment could be fraudulent. And then I found an entire article I wrote on this site with no attribution or link whatsoever. Incredible! Especially since all someone has to do is provide a link to my actual blog. Again, THANK YOU. Jan

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47. Shelley - January 14, 2014

Hi Jan,
I was lucky to have had enough of my N’s BS after about 6 months of abuse… One year of idealization, then the ring went on the finger and 5-6 months of the proverbial narcissistic abusive s*#t hit the fan. I left him and he was furious. Although you talk about the three stages, there are actually four if YOU leave HIM. The smear campaign starts in earnest! The N is so angry that you had the NERVE to leave HIM before he could suck all the life blood from your kind, energetic, positive, intelligent soul that he will trash your good name to any and all that will listen and enlist “flying monkeys” to spread the lies even further. It is a wild ride to say the least, and painful as heck to find out he’d been trashing me to my friends and family behind my back, long before I had a clue WHAT HE WAS. Dropped the ring in his lap, and walked out the door..
I would love for you to write about the smear campaign for your followers to understand this part of the N equation.
Thanks, and keep up the great work here. We as survivors need to know we are not alone. Peace & Love.

Shelley,
Better a ring in his lap than through your nose! It’s interesting because Ns seem to fall into two camps – those who wage a war of vindictiveness (as you describe), and those who simply vanish – POOF!
My experience was with the latter, so I’ve no personal experience with what you describe, but I’m sure others do. I called the N out on his bad behavior and it was like watching the Wicked Witch melt. I have to say though that I’ve been curious from time to time as to what he’d say about me if someone asked. It’s a good suggestion for a post – I’ll do some research. :) Jan

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Shelley - January 15, 2014

Jan,
His response has reminded me of the fairy tale Snow White. The wicked queen would talk into her mirror (ironically) and look for that positive response to confirm her as the “Fairest One of All”, and when she asked one day, and the mirror (me) told the truth, the rage and vindictive retaliation that followed was maniacal… The biggest issue I can see is we see them for what they REALLY are, and they can’t have that. It shatters their illusion of themselves, and risks their very existence in the house of cards that is their life. WE need to be pre-empted before we can tell the truth… if people believed us they WOULD melt just like the Wicked Witch… and they will do anything to make sure that doesn’t happen. Thus the aggressive smear campaign to discredit you before you can discredit them.

I think because you were work friends with your N, and not in an intimate, behind closed doors relationship, you were lucky enough not to experience the full wrath of your N’s aggressiveness. They do tend to save the worst of themselves for their most intimate connections, and no one is the wiser because it all happens privately. Try to explain any of their behaviour to your friends and they just cannot comprehend. You have to live it to get it.

Shelley,
You’re right in that all Ns hate to hear the truth. But, I do know people who were in intimate relationships with Ns and also experienced the vanishing act. It’s like they never existed to the N, which made them feel so utterly insignificant. But there have also been numerous commenters who have described experiences similar to yours. I’d scroll back through the comments (2000+) to find a similar tale, but it’s a school night. Here’s an interesting link dealing with Narcissistic Smear Campaigns. :) Jan

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