With apologies for any Brit/Scot refs that are unintelligible…Jan usually translates!!!!!!!!
Light Shine,
Les

Corinne,
I have several friends/visitors to this blog who did learn about their partner’s personality disorder in therapy. One woman was in couples therapy and the therapist then asked to see her separately and explained Narcissistic Personality Disorder to her. But that can take time and $.
Instead of suggesting someone enter therapy hoping that eventually the truth will be revealed, here’s a thought. The next time she tells you something awful he did, you might want to say, “Wow, that sounds so much like something I read the other day. You should google Narcissistic Personality Disorder.” Be prepared to write this down, so she doesn’t just google narcissism which seems to be everywhere in the news and related more to how many facebook friends one has.
Four words – Google Narcissist Personality Disorder. Maybe it will plant a seed. Maybe I need to write a post entitled “Google Narcissistic Personality Disorder.” LOL Jan

Maybe you can instead have a movie night where you show the film “Gaslight.” A classic, and a good example of how one person can so effectively manipulate another into insanity. Good luck.

-Corinna

Do you think it would have helped you if a couple of girlfriends had sat down with you and encouraged you to go to therapy? Like a kind of intervention without naming the drug of N. It might take sometime before she accepts the facts, but at least she’ll get there and with a professional to help her. I just have a hard time giving up all hope that there is no means to help her, even if only in small and incremental steps.

I think the best you can do is be there when they realize what is really going on and they finally see the wolf under the sheep costume. Few people understand (or believe) the true nature of being in a close relationship with an N, so your help then will be much appreciated.

Corinna,
I think the one good thing about knowing someone has NPD is that it does shut the door to the possibility of helping/changing them. They are what they are and there’s NOTHING you can do. You also realize it’s always been about them and not you, As someone said to me afterwards, “Jan, you were SO had.” That hurt as I’d like to think I’m nobody’s fool. Think again.
Always happy to be there to listen. I do believe you. Nothing surprises me.
Shrink4men is on my blogroll and is written for men dealing with crazy ex’s (usually Borderline or Ns). There quite a few excellent posts on custody/parenting issues. My sister-in-law’s children actively sought to remove their father from their lives as teenagers. They actually went to court and requested their father relenquish all parental rights in exchange for forgiving all the back child support he owed. He was only to eager to sign on the dotted line. Jan

I have a friend whose children also idolize their N father, and he plays mind games on them as well. It’s so painful as they just don’t understand why. And how could they? All they know is he can crush their spirits….like that! And I know someone whose eldest child shows a few N traits himself. This alarms her, but as the oldest, he got to witness more of his father’s abuse. His mother is hoping therapy can help him work through this. The jury is out.
I’m hoping you were involved with just two narcissists. You do need to find out why you keep shooting yourself in the foot….or is it the heart? In the meantime, counseling with a professional who understands the N dynamic sounds like the best course of action. I wouldn’t obsess about the future (I’ll never be rid of him, etc.). Focus on what you can do TODAY for yourself and your children.
Always, Jan

thanks again! yes, stayin strong on NC despite tempting voices from the dark corners of myself made me definately feel more empowered..i even felt kinda elated yesterday and my bff was like “i´m proud to annouce the return of cool frida”…haha.. yet i still can´t laugh out at his antics. however i found a series of pics of the N when springcleaning my harddrive. for a nanosec my heart jumped but then i looked and was like..so THAT is what turned you into a lump of pain, need and madness? THAT? he´s not even that handsome, acutally, he looks pathetic..peter pan reloaded..YAWN! delete.
i´m positive, with a bit of more healing and further real growth within myself, i´ll be even able to run into him and not blink an eye..so soon, going out dancing again won´t be spoiled by N-angst
or as vivi so vividly would say: HA!
thanks for the LA offer, jan! at least, next time i´m over i hope we´ll make it for a drink and a chat! hope y´all have a good one! cheers, frida

Corinne,
Sounds like a plan. May the Force be with you! Jan

Telling my friend outright that her husband is a N would never fly. She would dismiss it immediately. My angle would have to be his infidelities. He is the one with all of the information and would twist anything I could dig up. She’s the type to shoot the messenger.

The obvious answer is to plant some seeds. She is, however, already aware of some of his strange behaviors, as well as his emotional abuse at the hands of his mother. Except for the infidelities or attempted cheating, she has a lot of the information already. As the adult child of an alcoholic she is used to strange behavior. Pointing out more weird behavior is not going to sway her much. Ironically, her upbringing has given her all kinds of defense mechanisms at her disposal that I have seen her put to use. When he puts her down she usually dismisses it or tells him he’s crazy. So, she seems to have strong boundaries against his verbal abuse. In a weird way, this works for them. (Please challenge me on this if you think I’m being naive.)

The cheating is probably a separate issue then. When he openly flirts with a woman in front of her, she notices but does not seem to react. He does a great job of coming back to her side and giving her some attention. In fact, the last time, I saw him noticeably giddy at finding a new source of supply, the N flirted with his wife as they walked home. I know from her that he often uses sex with her as a reward or as punishment. Maybe she’s rewarded for putting up with the flirting. I don’t know. I felt he was rubbing it in her face, playing yet another mind game, getting away with one more thing.

I’m pretty certain that she does not know anything about his infidelities. The N’s brother is openly involved in an affair and she and the N make a big show of how immoral that is and feel terrible about how that is affecting the Ns parents.

She would appear to be firmly entrenched in denial. Obviously, I am torn about whether to say anything. And if I did, how to even broach the issue.
Any thoughts are welcome.

Corinne,
Yikes! This is such a can of worms in some ways. On the other hand, it’s very black and white. But your friend seems to have impaired vision that perhaps began in childhood? She sees what she wants to see? His behavior sounds horrible, so it’s hard to believe that she tolerates it, but it’s always hard to understand why some people put up with sh*t that would send the rest of us scurrying. If you bring up his infidelities, you can plan on her being in denial and you being branded as a traitor for telling the truth. If you’re okay with that, than you might proceed. But be prepared for the worst – a virtual sh*t storm aimed at….you. I’m afraid everyone loses in this scenario, though don’t we all hope that ultimately we all will win by recognizing the truth? That is a possibility, but don’t expect her to be grateful for you telling her how it really is. Jan

Planting a Seed. First, when I was involved with my N two years ago. Someone started telling me stories about him that truly went to how he treated people. She was someone who had been involved with him in the past. While she would not have used the term N (I would not have understood the term at the time anyway), she did use the terms “entitled” and “clueless.” At first, I thought she was exaggerating. But those storied stuck with me. After that whenever, he would put me down either directly or indirectly, I would think of her stories. Although I continued to justify his behavior to myself, I started to get a little more snarky with him. As a result, he turned the volume up on his nastiness and eventually caused me to walk away much, much sooner than I would have.

She did plant a seed. Of course, at the time, it was excruciatingly painful to hold such contrasting views of him in my head. Someone I loved so much yet at the sometime knew he was indeed clueless about how to treat people. I thought of him as having the emotional bandwidth of a little boy. So, even though I knew nothing about Ns, I knew both from my experience and the other woman’s that it would not be a long term relationship. Yet, for a long time, I continued to doubt myself: he had called me evil and here I was thinking such terrible thoughts about someone I thought I loved even though we did not seem to get along. We continued to be friends – no benefits – and eventually I asked him about the stories this woman had told me. He did not deny them, nor did he malign the woman, rather he attacked me for bringing them up and making him “feel bad” and “having ulterior motives for doing so.” That was the real light bulb for me.

I was in therapy at the time, and it was my therapist who told me about Ns. Anyway, I finally heard the diagnosis from a trusted source and was able to read up on it. It has been incredibly liberating. I will no longer doubt myself when I see those red flags, nor those who try to warm me.

However, I was not his spouse, nor was I living with him.

Corinne,
“Having the emotional band width of a little boy” really resonated with me. Yes, the N I got close to exhibited all of these traits. It’s a long story, but he knew someone who could do bodywork on my car. He could give me a ride home. But when I called him to come pick me up, he asked that I instead get a ride to his apartment. This was a first. Would you believe that he had an 8×10 photo of himself (when he had hair) hanging over the inside of his front door? That’s when the word narcissist popped into my head. Gee, I wonder why? I have to laugh in retrospect. You were so lucky to be in therapy with a therapist who knew about these emotional vampires. Jan

Shout,
So true…when I tried to tell your wife about you, she was in total denial. I couldn’t figure out which of your posts made it onto Fresh Pressed. One less thing to whine about? Haha! Jan

Bettyluna,
Yes, bit by bit. I’ve added your site to my blogroll. Jan

She had no need to apologise though….I would have rationalised her warnings away(particularly early in the relationship)… I was intent on seeing his awful behaviour as the result of ‘faulty attachment’ in childhood,something I could manage or that could have been changed?
I think that getting over a Narc is a combination of accepting the absolute incurability of a cluster B Narcissism disorder and being prepared to do the work on yourself….that is…why did you enable this person into your life/or why did you stay in the relationship?
Both this acceptance and introspection can only be done by you….a messenger may open the floodgates but you yourself have to mop up the mess?
Les

Les,
As always, so aptly put! The prognosis for someone with NPD is so utterly bleak that you’d have to be crazy to continue on in a relationship with a N. Indeed, we need to do the hard work of mopping up the mess and understanding our part in it. Always, Jan

Happy Mother’s day btw, it’s the best mother’s day I’ve had…away from my tormentor!

Happy Mother’s Day to you! Yes, everyone told my SIL that her husband was emotionally abusive. After 14 years and eight children, she could take it no more. It had also become increasingly obvious that her ex was an indifferent father.
Sometimes, just as with any addiction, you have to hit bottom before you can see your way out of a situation. Congratulations on moving forward toward the light.
Jan

Renetia,
You did what you could. This is what I view as “planting the seed.” Maybe sometime down the line, the article will be reread and of help. Regarding children, my SIL had eight children with a N. She thought that by providing the perfect family, he would finally appreciate/love her? The only real love she received in the marriage was from her children, so that kept her going. I know it sounds crazy, but that’s why we refer to their behavior as “crazy making.” Jan

I believe you know this because you’re wearing a pair. LOL A, Jan

Lynn,
How lucky you were. As you say, Ns can be very good at hiding their true nature even from a trained therapist/psychologist/doctor. I have one friend who was told by a friend that the man she was involved with was a narcissist or possibly a sociopath. This woman was a close friend and had been married to a psychopath, so her observations were invaluable. Another friend was talking to her cousin who’d gone into therapy due to her marriage. Her cousin confided that the therapist thought her husband was a narcissist. When she ticked off the traits, my friend realized it was HER husband she was describing. Jan

Mark,
The “anger” is merely her projecting her own emotions onto you. I do believe that the lack of empathy was for me was what I found most troubling. It does get better with time and understanding, which you’re finding out. Best of luck! Jan

After I complained about a long-time friend’s increasingly terrible behavior, my husband told me that this friend sounded like a Narcissist. I was surprised that he had given it any thought, because he rarely discusses people’s personalities or motives. After he made that “diagnosis,” he dropped the subject. I looked up the definition and was surprised to see that my friend exhibited many of the NPD traits. I was able to deal with her much more easily, which mostly consisted of backing away whenever she behaved badly. This was a little before the time you started writing about Narcissism, so your writing was incredibly helpful. The timing was also fortuitous. And not just with dealing with Narcissists, but with people in general. Many of us have a little N that threatens to rear its ugly head from time to time.

Cathy,
I do remember how your friend’s behavior had you wondering what on earth was going on. And I remember how your husband’s comment on narcissism sent you off to read up on this disorder. I’m afraid the people who knew the N I came in contact with had rather limited contact with him – no one really got up close, so they didn’t get the D&D that I was “treated” to. They just thought he was an a$$hole, never knowing that he had a personality disorder. I think the most freeing thing about reading about Narcissistic Personality Disorder is to understand that it can NOT be cured. This allows you to give up any notion of a “cure” and move on. Jan