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Close Encounter With A Narcissist – Part 3 August 15, 2008

Posted by alwaysjan in Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
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Please read/reread “Close Encounter with a Narcissist – Parts 1 & 2” before reading Part 3.  These are usually featured in Top Posts in the column at the right.  If not, you can access them through Tags or Categories under Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Scroll down through Part 3 to reach Parts 1 & 2. Note: In Part 3, I’ll refer to a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) simply as a narcissist.  Again, I’ll refer to the narcissist as “he,” as the majority of narcissists are male.

Looking back on my own close encounter with a narcissist, I can see the Red Flags were there early on. In my gut, I knew there was something “off” about my friend Joe. But I had trouble putting my finger on just what IT was. The more time I spent with him, it became painfully obvious how illogical Joe’s reasoning was – it just didn’t jibe with “human” logic. He also seemed enamored with himself and professed to having many talents. I once teased Joe that he was “self-absorbed.”  But I wasn’t teasing – merely making an observation. For the first time, the word narcissist popped into my head.

Red Flag #1 – Grandiosity

Ah, yes.  Grandiosity and its sidekick Magical Thinking. While there is an overlap with other personality disorders when it comes to Lack of Empathy, it is Grandiosity that distinguishes Narcissistic Personality Disorder from all of the other personality disorders. Grandiosity is the jewel in the crown that makes the narcissist so very special.

According to the DSM-IV, “The essential feature of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy that begins by early adulthood and is present in a variety of contexts.

“Individuals with NPD routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments, often appearing boastful and pretentious. They may blithely assume others attribute the same value to their efforts and may be surprised when the praise they expect and feel they deserve is not forthcoming.”

An admitted “seminar junkie,”  Joe shared with me a dizzying array of plans he had that would bring him money, recognition, or just a change in scenery. After hearing these change weekly, I began writing down all of the things Joe was going to do “some day.”  When you’re a teenager, or even in your twenties, this kind of daydreaming is normal. But not in your 40s.

Narcissists love to envision grand scenarios starring – themselves! What they lack is the follow-through to make them reality. Why do narcissists indulge in this kind of thinking?  Just thinking of all of the great things they’re “going to do” brings a smile to their face. Think of it as mental masturbation.

One day I told Joe I believed the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Not that people can’t change, but barring some life-changing epiphany, most people are creatures of habit. Joe vehemently disagreed. You see, the narcissist’s grandiosity goes hand-in-hand with Magical Thinking. Joe was big on the book The Secret, which holds that all you have to do is think positive thoughts and good things will happen. Now, I’m all for positive thinking and I like to think karma will come round, but Magical Thinking goes above and beyond. When you’re a narcissist, though, fairy tales can come true (besides, they’re already wearing that crown).

Here’s an example of grandiosity. Joe was considering taking a freelance job on the side. He’d never done this sort of work, but narcissists are convinced they can do anything. I warned Joe he could be getting in over his head, but he took the job anyway. Three weeks later, he came to me in a panic. Not only had he screwed up the job, he was being asked to refund the money he’d been paid, since someone else would now have to fix his mess. His client had mentioned the “L” word – lawyer. It was the first time I’d seen Joe visibly shaken.

Now, on some level, Joe knew he’d screwed up, but he refused to accept any responsibility. As I listened to him talk aloud about the botched job, I watched him mentally rewrite the scenario of what happened. It wasn’t his fault – it was that stupid woman who hired him. You see, narcissists are NEVER, EVER wrong. So, if a narcissist ever tells you he was wrong about something (a very human trait), brace yourself. Most likely he’s getting ready to do something really nasty – to you.

Red Flag #2 – Lack of Empathy

Empathy is what makes us human. We can put ourselves in someone else’s shoes and share their joy or feel their pain. But a narcissist has only one one pair of shoes – and they fit PERFECTLY. Human emotions confound narcissists and make them uncomfortable. They don’t know the right thing to say. They’ve watched humans, so they know what they’re supposed to say, but it doesn’t come naturally. This explains their often odd and insensitive comments (The Inappropriate Effect). Any talk of feelings is just so – icky!  Joe was quick to point out he hated “girlie girls” or anyone who was “touchy feely.” He dismissed anything tinged with emotion as “drama.” What was funny was although Joe said he hated drama, it was his own bad behavior that sparked all of the drama in his life.

Joe often said he was “too nice.” He could talk a good game, lamenting the injustices in the world, as if he genuinely cared. But it was just that – talk.

I once listened to Joe make a comment to a young woman. They’d worked together and supposedly were friends. The comment was about her body and had a sexual undertone. It left her visibly distressed. Now, any normal person, seeing her reaction would have immediately apologized for hurting her feelings. But what did “I’m too nice” Joe do? He sat across the table from her for the next hour and never opened his mouth. Later, I asked why he would say such an insensitive thing. He shrugged and admitted it was a cheap shot, but added, smiling, “It was so easy – that’s what made it so much fun.” It was creepy.

When I talked to the woman several days later, SHE apologized to me!  “I’m sorry I got so upset,” she said. “I know the way Joe is, so I shouldn’t have let it bother me so much.” Can you see how a narcissist gets away with such behavior? People make excuses for him!  “That’s just the way he is,” they say, while mentally adding another tally mark after the word @sshole.

Asking a narcissist to “have a heart” has just the opposite effect. Reasoning with them also falls on deaf ears. A narcissist doesn’t want to change because there’s nothing wrong with him. YOU are the one with the problem, remember?

Red Flag #3 –  Confusing Communication

Communication (or should I say lack of genuine communication) with a narcissist is a crazy-making experience. Humans communicate to share information, ideas, and feelings. Not so the narcissist who uses words to confuse and paralyze his victim. Narcissists don’t like to play their nasty games on a level playing field. Their cryptic comments are designed to keep their victim constantly confused and wondering, “What did THAT mean?” This tactic gives the narcissist the home team advantage.

Any attempt to discuss feelings with a narcissist is doomed to leave the victim not knowing left from right. Joe had a short list of pronouncements that could derail any conversation: “Can’t you take a joke?”  “But no one got hurt!”  “Why do you bother talking about that?  It’s in the past!” (yesterday constituted ‘the past’) “If you’d just behave!”  “I’m really busy, so is this life or death?” or his ultimate putdown, “You’re such a drama queen!”

If you know a narcissist, you already know the kind of comments I’m talking about. They’re the equivalent to a teenager’s dismissive, “Whatever!” or the “Talk to the Hand” gesture.

When cornered, a narcissist is like the cartoon character who, when in danger, magically produces a pencil, quickly draws a door, and makes a hasty exit. When I read Stalking the Soul by Marie-France Hirigoyen, a French psychiatrist whose specialty is victimology, it was her chapter on Communication and the narcissist that hit a nerve. The verbal roller coaster, with all its twists and turns, came to a screeching halt and I decided then it was time to get off the ride. It was no longer exciting – it was making me sick.

Cerebral and Somatic – Sex as in “Table for One, Please”

Narcissists get their admiration, or Narcissistic Supply (NS), in one of two forms. Cerebral narcissists gain NS through their intellect, that is, by being “an authority.” Somatic narcissists may be equally intelligent, but they satisfy their need for NS through sexual conquests.

Both kinds of narcissist prefer autoerotic sex – masturbation – to sex with a flesh-and-blood woman. That’s because a real woman expects you to talk to her, or even worse, cuddle, after the main event. Remember, the narcissist can’t establish a genuine emotional bond with another human, so he finds these feelings unnatural and awkward. Faking it is hard work, and he’d just as soon get up and watch TV or check his email. You served your purpose and now he’s done with you. It’s like he had to blow his nose – and the Kleenex? Well, that would be you. He’ll toss it/you aside until he needs to blow his nose again. Romantic, huh?

Cerebral narcissists can put on a show during the idealization phase, but quickly lose all interest in sex. They’re essentially asexual. They derive pleasure from frustrating their partner by withholding sex. This gives them a feeling of power. Besides, to them, not only is sex down and dirty – it’s just so common. They’re way too special to engage in such a common pursuit. So they can do without.

Despite Joe’s love of sexual innuendo, I realized when it came to women, he was like my dogs when it comes to cats. My dogs love the chase, but if the cat stops running, they just stand there, looking rather embarrassed about what to do next. After a short impasse, they wander off to look for another cat that will run from them. Remember, it’s the chase that the narcissist loves.

A somatic narcissist, on the other hand, is like the town dog always making his rounds. But it’s not just his infidelity, and the accompanying lies, that are so disturbing. It’s his irrational rationale. “You made me do it” so “It’s not my fault.” (I apologize to all dogs for comparing them to a narcissist. Dogs are infinitely more caring and human than any narcissist could ever hope to be.)

The Myth of Curing the Narcissist

Remember the blanket analogy from Part 1?  A person doesn’t HAVE a personality disorder, they ARE the personality disorder. Narcissism in interwoven into every fiber of that blanket. Unravel the blanket and you unravel their personality.

If you’re a woman, you’re most likely a nurturer and think that with enough patience and love, someone or something can be helped. It’s that “I’ll nurse this fallen baby bird back to health using a medicine dropper!” thing. Sound familiar?

Even after I figured out that Joe had NPD, I was convinced if I could just reconnect with that inner child that was hiding deep inside, he’d feel safe to come out and show me his real face. Olly, olly, oxen free! Some call this logic “Peeling an Onion.” The rescuer thinks, “If I can just peel away the layers of hurt, I can get to the core of the problem, and I can help him heal.” But what’s at the core of an onion?  Ah ha! That’s a trick question, because an onion has no core.  Not to mention that peeling an onion makes YOU cry, while the onion feels nothing.

Know this. That wounded child’s True Self might as well be preserved in amber. It’s fossilized and will never ever develop. Besides, a narcissist doesn’t want to be fixed because he’s convinced he’s fine just the way he is. It’s YOU who has the problem, remember?

So, least you forget, write this on a post-it note and put it up on the refrigerator:  NO NARCISSIST HAS EVER BEEN CURED!  (I’ve since written more about this.  See Can a Narcissist be Cured?)

Discarded and Scarred – Life After the Narcissist

I was only involved with Joe for four months and we were just “friends.” (Friends is in quotations because narcissists don’t have any real friends). Joe had proven himself to be a first class @sshole on so many occasions. He showed absolutely no interest in me as a person – only in what I could do for him. He’d solicited advice, ignored it, then punished me for offering it. So why couldn’t I just “move on?”  I knew WHAT he was. I knew there was NO CURE. But still…

First, it was hard to forget how much I enjoyed Joe’s company during the Idealization phase. He’d bound up to me like an eager puppy wagging its tail. It was hard to believe this was an act, or just the giddiness that went with honing in on a new source of NS. It seemed so real – to me.

But, the most painful part was the feeling of betrayal – of being duped. It’s hard to admit that you were just a “thing” with an expiration date, especially to a person you genuinely cared about. You want to think that when all is said and done, at the end of the day you were special. But you are special, and that’s why the narcissist targeted you.

I was angry with Joe, but I was angriest with myself. I’m a confident person with strong boundaries, so how could I have let this happen?  This was all a game for Joe. But then he had an advantage because he’d played this game many times before. He knew the rules. Hell, I didn’t even know it was a game!

A word of warning: A narcissist will never give his victim the validation they so desperately seek or closure. This final act of control and cruelty leaves his victim hanging and twisting in the wind. This brings a smile to the narcissist’s face.

I’ve since forgiven myself. As a caring person, I only did what came naturally. I saw someone who was lonely and seemed to be in pain, and I reached out to help them. But Joe didn’t want or need my help, because he’s perfect just the way he is. So, you see, I’m the one with the problem. But it’s a problem I can live with. It’s called being human. And that, my friends, is what I learned from MY close encounter with a narcissist.

Acknowledgements

It was Joe’s self-involvement that led me to Google “narcissism.” Who would have known there were so many others online looking for answers?

Sam Vaknin’s book Malignant Self Love – Narcissism Revisited was a revelation. How could anyone not know Sam?  A narcissist, he’s everywhere on the internet. I’m just glad a life crisis forced him to venture out into the light of day long enough to write this seminal book. Although I jokingly refer to Sam as the Head Vampire, he has shed such light into the darkness that is NPD. I’m only sorry I forwarded my highlighted version to Joe, who will never read it (I imagine he uses it to prop up one very short leg of a table.)

Marie-France Hirigoyen’s book, Stalking the Soul, was a godsend. I ordered a used copy from Amazon.

I first found on-line support through Careplace’s NPD community. Several of the online friends I met there are now my real-life friends, and I kiss the ground for my good fortune.

The members of MSN Groups Narcissistic Personality Disorder Forum constantly amaze me with their wisdom, insight, and yes, humor. It’s inspiring to see how people can gain strength from each other’s experiences, cry, learn, laugh, and move forward. Special thanks to Femfree, the forum manager, for posting the link to my blog.

Finally, thanks to all those near and dear to me. You know who your are. Your patience and support has made me realize how incredibly rich I am.

Looking to the Future

I always thought that as soon as I finished writing Close Encounter with a Narcissist I’d be DONE! But I’m a teacher, remember?  And there’s still so much work to be done to educate the public about this devastating disorder. So, I WILL be writing future posts on NPD. If you’d like to check in from time to time, please bookmark my site.  Peace.

Posts since written – You’ll find them in Categories or Tags under Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Can a Narcissist be Cured?
The Mirror Talks – Reflections on Narcissism #1, 2, and 3.

You’ll find these in Categories under Narcissistic Personality Disorder.


Comments»

1. Catherine Sherman - August 15, 2008

Thank you so much for this series. The public definitely needs education. Even with a prominent politician recently announcing or confessing he’s a narcissist (after getting caught doing something stupid), there was little in the media about what narcissism actually means and why it’s dangerous. And most importantly to our own mental health, you’ve written why it’s important to avoid narcissists. They can’t be cured, and they will only cause misery. I look forward to more on NPD from you.

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2. davidrochester - August 16, 2008

Yes, thanks for sharing this — it’s definitely something that isn’t talked about enough.

I am the child of a textbook classic narcissist, and the only thing that saved me from developing a complementary dependent personality disorder was that I developed a multiple personality disorder instead, to cope with the unbelievable emotional abuse, lack of safety, lack of stability, and complete, utter, continual destruction of my sense of self. The only thing I’m grateful for is that for some reason, I saw through him and hated him from a very early age. But that, alas, was not enough to save me.

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3. davidrochester - August 16, 2008

Oh, and I meant to add … yes, you’re absolutely right that they can’t be cured. It’s bad enough when a well-meaning, caretaking woman ends up with one of these black holes of emotional vampirism, but for the love of God, for the love of all that’s good in the world, DO NOT CHOOSE ONE OF THESE PEOPLE TO HAVE A CHILD WITH. Fatherhood/motherhood doesn’t make them better people. It just destroys the child.

Davidrochester –
It pains me so much to hear the hurt in your voice from having been raised by a narcissistic parent. I have a relative who has eight children by her narcissistic ex-husband. She is religious and thought if she just provided the perfect family life, he’d finally love and connect with her and his family. Instead, she now is helping her children deal with their indifferent and distant (emotionally and physically) father. Children are so quick to blame themselves, though they are the innocents in this tragedy.

“Joe” once approached me and asked at what age a woman was most likely to get pregnant. The not-so-subtle message was he’d like to father a child, so he needed to know where to cast his net. This was the first time I blurted out, “You’d make a horrible father. You’re so self-absorbed! Jan

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4. ES - August 17, 2008

Jan-
Once again bravo girlfriend.
I still find it amazing that those of us that were so badly abused by Narcissists have been able to turn it around. That what was evil, that what was meant to destroy us, we’ve turned around for good.
I know we all share the wish that our words as a whole will help hundreds of others.

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5. Susan - August 17, 2008

Jan —

Had to leave another message for you — thank you SO much for your talent and ability to dissect your very personal painful journey. I have read every book, magazine article, and internet post on narcissism I have been able to find. Your three postings are the most enlightening writing that I have experienced. It’s as if you had been there with me during all my years of this hell. I have said many times that I wish I could show some physical scar to the world — perhaps then, others could somehow completely understand the emotional abuse I endured. You have been able to document this abuse — if not in physical scars — at least in meaningful thought-provoking words that paint a vivid picture of a narcissist’s aftermath. Again I thank you.

Susan –
It was exhausting writing about this whole experience so your comment means the world to me!
Jan

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6. Bev from England - August 18, 2008

Jan…hardly know what to say… i was agreeing the whole way through!

Im slowly getting through my N experience, as you know. I’m so glad i found you on the Careplace and MSN boards! I love your blog and these N topics have been especially helpful.

Its all so crazy making.

This whole series has been very difficult for you to write, i know… good to read youll be posting more still, as this topic is HUGE.

Well done!

HUGS

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7. John - September 5, 2008

My metaphor for this situation is the tar-baby from Briar Rabbit. For those that have dealt with these people, the simple act of discussing it pulls the energy out of you and leaves you feeling you need to wash. The more you fight them, the more stuck you get.
After years of counseling the neuro-psychologist finally sat me down and told my wife was narcissistic.
I consider myself fortunate. For years the advice I got was always, try harder to communicate, you’re a guy show more empathy, give more, etc etc. The more you try to do what most people perceive as the right thing, the more you open yourself to evil.
Here’s a quote that should be memorized by everyone encountering these people:
“Using Emotional Intelligence to deal with an individual that has an agenda puts you in harm’s way.”
I’m a father that works out of the home. After seeing what goes on in the neighborhoods I think there are as many women as men, with this condition. They simply operate differently.
For me one of the more difficult aspects of having lived through this experience is the inabilitity to communicate with or to people that have not experienced it.
When I hear someone is fun, charming, charismatic along with terms indicating self involvement, flags go up all over the place. Danger someone is going to be harmed. I’m learning to be very quiet and listen intently.
Wonderful article ———- Thank you
John

John-
Your metaphor is so true as their nastiness tends to rub off on you, yet it’s usually the victim who’s left wondering what THEY did wrong. And you’re so right. You can’t use “Emotional Intelligence” with someone who has none. I also think you’re correct when you say that women with NPD operate differently. It gives new meaning to the phrase, “It’s like trying to get blood from a sto
ne.”

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8. Ginger - September 8, 2008

Jan, It has taken me several days to read through all of this, but well worth it. Thank you so much for taking the time to write all this. I have known several people in my lifetime with NPD (haven’t we all?) Unfortunately for me, I was married to one for 24 years. I didn’t figure out that it was HIM and not ME until after the divorce.

I want to share with you a classic NPD utterance. I had just found out I had cancer. We were sitting in the car, still at the Dr.’s office. He turned to me and instead of comfort (which I never got, go figure) he said, with ‘tone’…. “Now don’t go blabbing this to everyone you know, like you always do, Ginger.”

Confused, thinking he was ashamed of me, I asked why.

“Because, GINGER!” he said, rolling eyes and sighing as if should be OBVIOUS, even to an idiot like me. “I want to get some life insurance on you, and if you go running off at the mouth about having cancer, I won’t be able to.”

I think that was the moment when I knew I had to divorce him.

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9. Dawn - September 14, 2008

I do hope you continue with your series.
There are so many others out there trying to understand what they have done to be treated so coldly, people trying to ‘help’ and save their beloved partners.
You will enable these people to realise they are not alone, and give them strength to escape the abuse.

Thankyou

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10. ES - September 27, 2008

Jan-
I was re-reading this post today and saw for the first time the line, “Thing with an expiration date.” That is so true. I wish I had known then that my “Best if used by date” was fast approaching. I could have made my escape from his refrigerator of devalue and discard.
Thanks again.

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11. Beth - September 28, 2008

Just realized that my ex is a narcissist. That explains the no affection and feeling of no love from him. I think his father is a narcissist with the perfect wife. She constantly builds him up even when it is a total lie. My ex left me for another woman. The irony is all of this is I believe she is a histrionic who left her narcissistic husband for mine. Good Luck and Good Riddance to bad rubbish!

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12. flyaway - November 30, 2008

My forty years of marriage has been a roller coaster ride. Punctuated by many occurrences of being pushed away and then pulled back in. Can you imagine what a fish would feel like if once you got it to the bank you played the line back out and then reeled it in again and again?

I’ve accepted the fact that my wife will never show true affection for me. All I can do at this point in my life is use the knowledge of what I’ve learned about NPD to better live with it. Funny thing is if I were reading my life as if it was someone else I’d tell them to get out at any age.

Flyaway-
I’ve learned so much more about women with NPD through the comments men have left. Thank you. Sometimes I think men are more likely to suffer alone unless they have a close friend or relative they feel comfortable talking to about “what’s wrong.” (And unfortunately, most people we do talk to don’t have a clue about this disorder).

Now you know it’s not YOU. But 40 years of push and pull would leave anyone exhausted and sad for “what might have been.” I think it’s easy to tell people to “get out at any age,” but easier said than done. I hope your newfound knowledge helps you better “live with it,” but also helps you realize that you’ll never feel true love or appreciation within your marriage. As humans, those are genuine feelings we NEED (and deserve) to feel at any age. Jan

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13. Jack - December 5, 2008

Just wondering if the grandiosity in N’s is always apparent. I live with someone who fits most of the descriptors, other than the grandiosity. Can the grandiosity be in their thoughts and not necessarily external?

Jack-
Thanks for getting back. When I was first mulling over whether Joe actually had NPD, I often consulted Sam Vaknin’s site (google “Sam Vaknin grandiosity” and you’ll be set with reading for the rest of the weekend!). I also highly recommend Halycon, which is on my blogroll. It has a list of traits that had me laughing out loud because Joe possessed so many of the
m.

But, keep in mind that although Ns are the same at the core, the disorder can look different from person to person. (Just like a designer dress!) I say this because when I originally read some of the diagnostic criteria, I thought, “Oh no, that doesn’t apply! Joe’s not a chronic liar.” Only later I realized he lied by omission, so yes it DID apply.

I originally envisioned a person with “grandiosity” as a pompous ass who walked into the room and proceeded to dominate the conversation. In short, a larger than life character. On the contrary, Joe was socially awkward – an observer on the outside looking in. But his grandiosity was one of the things that screamed NPD. His grandiosity was an ongoing inner dialogue. (Like an RSS feed). I think I just had the “privilege” of listening in to this inner dialogue because I was a willing listener. Most people found Joe somewhat of a bore and begged off.

“theotherbed2″ added a wonderful comment below that SO nails it. I kept a list of all the things Joe said he was going to do and when it hit 15, I had to sit back and laugh because there was absolutely no follow through. Big plans, but it was all talk.

Concerning your original comment on the other thread. Keep in mind that narcissists are frozen at the emotional maturity level of a small child so they are FOREVER immature. And, people don’t just go away and come back healed (cue snap of the finger audio). It’s an arduous process – one step at a time.

So please check out the above sites. No matter what conclusion you reach in regards to a diagnosis of NPD, ultimately you have to ask yourself, “How does this person make me feel about myself? Do they genuinely care about me?” If so, that caring will manifest itself in their actions – not just in words.

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14. theotherbed2 - December 6, 2008

My take on the grandiosity thing–after living with an N for 30+ years–is that yes, it is an internal truth for them, but they are aware of the loser within. In fact, much of the posturing seems to be a way to totally bury and deny that loser because it scares the s**t out of them.

I have about a million examples, but here’s a recent one. My Nh recently made a pocket call to me. I listened for about 20 minutes while he expounded on his many stellar accomplishments to a poor barista who’s only job was to fix him a latte! It was so extreme that I expected him at any moment to claim to be a decorated vet, an honored fireman, and maybe a research scientist working on a cure for cancer!

See, I had postulated that with OW, he was SuperFrank (not his real name), always on, always seductive, a veritable Knight in Shining Armor. I have seen him pour this on right in front of me, but doubted my senses. But I guess he needs to impress EVERYBODY–male, female, young, old, fat, skinny–anybody that moves.

As for the monster thing–I have never used that word. But he, when denying something, will say, “only a monster would do that”, and then it turns out to be true!

I was so glad to come here this morning and be reminded of all this. My problem was, I was reacting to each slap upside the head as if it were a singular event, i.e. why is there an OW’s bra in my drawer? I can’t present evidence to him, no matter how tangible, because he goes into a rage and says things that totally pull the rug out from under me. Stalking the Soul describes the paralyzation we experience when bombarded with rageful irrationality. I have come to see the whole panorama of what he is, and how I have become trapped in it.

Oooops. Gotta go.

theotherbed2 –
Thanks for making my day! Your description of “SuperFrank” trying so hard to impress the barista is classic. Several times when I was with Joe, I saw him “turn on the charm.” It was so obvious/obnoxious that it was painful for me to watch the women squirm. It was as though they’d gotten a whiff of his cologne, and recognized that he was wearing “Loser.” Stalking the Soul is such an affirming book, that I recommend it to anyone who’s dealt with a narcissist.

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15. sam - December 26, 2008

I have realized that my sister is NPD. It would be too draining to write all the NPD-like traits she has revealed…but maybe one day I will write it down. We are both still young — she is older than me, but we are both in our 20s. The only way I can feel okay when she visits for the holidays is too maintain as much distance, both emotionally and physically, between us as possible. But when that happens, she starts her syrupy sweet personality, saying things like “Do you like me?” and laughing loudly and fakely. Then, when I start feeling guilty for being so “distant” [which I did in the first place to ensure my mental health]. I will do things with her, like go see a movie, or talk — and then hours or a day later, the slightest provocation will send her on a rage, making me feel like I did something horribly wrong/am a horrible person. She can also be horribly cruel to my parents, but in bizarre ways — she’ll be super nice [and obviously fake] so they will buy her something expensive that she “needs”, and then be super mean to them afterwards. She has no friends here in our hometown [gee, I wonder why], while I have kept in touch with many of my old friends, so at least I have an escape. Ugh, I feel like crying, she’s so insane. I remember one day I went on a nature hike with her, and then she kept deliberately walking really slowly and behind me, and then became enraged saying that I was trying to walk faster than her and didn’t want to spend time with her [even though we had just gone on a two-hour long nature hike]. Then she ended up throwing her keys at me, at which point I told her she had to grow up, and she became even more enraged, chasing me into my bedroom and saying “You don’t know how to fight!” I don’t recall all the details, but it was such a confusing, bizarre, hurtful experience I could only sob. I know realize that I really just have to keep my distance from her at all times and politely decline any invitation she might offer [which is inevitably a way for her to get close and then start a bizarre fight]. i am also confused about her constant transition beween a sickly-sweet, “cute” personalty [which seems to unnerve people] and her hateful, rage-filled peresonality. Ugh, sorry for ranting but I feel you all are the only ones who might understand.

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16. sam - December 26, 2008

Just another thing — I just went down to dinner with my family, and my sister is currently in her stage of trying to “Be nice” in her own strange way. I had just taken a shower and as I was called to dinner, I had no choice but to throw on a very old, worn polo shirt. The first thing she says when she sees me is “Nice shirt!” in a very friendly, nice way…which from prior experience I know is Stage 1, where she is nice [Stage 2 is when she tries to become “close”, and Stage 3 is where she goes insane because of something you said or did]. I realized this is something she does — tries to get closer by flattery, but tries to flatter you in a way that is also kind of a put down — but she would NEVER understand that if tried to explain it to her. It’s like they don’t understand how “real” people operate…it’s so confusing, but I just have to realize it really has nothing to do with me, is no fault of mine. But still, when you’re dealing with someone with NPD, you always feel slightly crazy yourself…

Sam –
I was just sitting down to respond to your first comment when I saw your new comment. Holidays can be hard enough, but throw a personality disorder into the mix, and you’re bound to not only feel stressed, but ultimately disappointed. We all want to feel closer to each other this time of year, so no matter how much “distance” you try to create, it’s got to hurt to know that ultimately you’ll never be close to your sister. Especially if she’s your only sibling (and I don’t know if that’s the case).

I have no experience with NPD siblings, but when I was on MSN (which has since moved to a new site) there was a forum for family members of those with NPD. I’ve too little information to go on, but you might also want to check out the diagnostic criteria for Borderline and Histronic personality disorders. There’s a great deal of overlap between all of these Cluster B disorders – hence their nickname, the Drama Club.

I’m not in the advice business, but I do like to respond to comments as most people you know will listen but not really understand. First, don’t feel bad about ranting. It’s only natural to replay certain events over and over to others in hopes that then they will validate your experience and assure you that YOU aren’t the crazy one. Second, remember that anyone with NPD is always motivated by self-interest. It’s so painful to see how they can turn it on and off to shamelessly manipulate others. Any kind words are to disable your defenses so they can get up close where they can do the most damage. Finally, at all costs you need to maintain emotional distance to protect yourself from this train wreck of a person. Unfortunately, your sister sounds more like the train set my little brother had as a kid that just went in loops. The upside is you have friends and have at a relatively young age, come to know what you’re up against. And the other side doesn’t play fair. Jan

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17. sam - December 27, 2008

Jan, thank you so much for your compassionate and understanding words. Realizing that she is NPD [or Borderline/Histrionic] makes me feel somehow relieved and liberated…that I’m “okay.” Yes, it is extremely sad that we will never be close as I have no other siblings, but at the same time I feel like I will be saving decades of my life by being polite yet distant.

The line you wrote “the other side doesn’t play fair” is so accurate. This type of behavior is so strange that you really can’t understand it until you experience it, I guess.

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18. pj - January 11, 2009

Jan:

Thank you so much for your insightful and well-written words. You’ve done a great job describing these broken, pathetic and yet vicious people.

When I realized I was dealing with an N and stopped giving an emotional response to his cruel jabs, he discarded me for another woman and ground my face in it, acting as if I must be devastated by his preference for her. Truth is, I am tremendously relieved that his focus moved off of me and is directed elsewhere, but feel sorry for her. She is married and has several children, and I can about predict that he will ruin her life.

Like your friend Joe, the N I was involved with took great amusement in hurting people’s feelings. He also was a pathological liar, which took me some time to discover, tortured small animals, and seldom smiled or laughed even though he thought he had a great sense of humor. He also punished me severely if I dared to disagree with him, even on the smallest things.

There were times when I wondered if he had a heart, and now I know that he doesn’t. I would also add to those who think they may be involved with a narcissist to pay attention to your gut feelings. The cruel things the N said to me always caused a horrible sinking pain in my stomach–a sure sign of abuse. Also, don’t let yourself be sucked back in when he thinks he’s going to lose you and reverts to charming behavior. His charming self is a lie and won’t last.

Good luck to all and to those of you who married one of these ***holes and stayed with them for decades, you have my wholehearted sympathy.

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19. alwaysjan - January 31, 2009

I received the comment below from Liselotte in Amsterdam. When I was writing a response to it, I inadvertently deleted her entire comment. I emailed Liselotte and fortunately she’d saved her comment. She sent it again to me via email to post accompanied by the note below.

Liselotte’s comment is a narrative of her two-year-long relationship with a narcissist. With the benefit of hindsight, and after working with a therapist, she was able to analyze her relationship and see it for what it was, or more importantly, for what it wasn’t. Think of it as the “dissection of a deception.” I think anyone who’s had a close encounter with a narcissist could benefit from writing a personal narrative as Liselotte has done. Jan

Hi Jan,
Thank you for your e-mail. You’re the first person online to read and respond to my story and that feels good! I’ve thoroughly read your story and I can so relate to it. Although many of the experiences in our “close encounter with a narcissist” (love the title!) are different, the core aspects are the same; the covert ways of mind control, the manipulation, the ‘idealisation, devalue and discard’-circle, lack of empathy, whatever you do, it’s never good enough etc etc. That harrowing experience of being an extension, an object with an expiration date (well put!!) are devastating… I’m still trying to come to terms with it. Reading other people’s stories has helped me a lot. Thank you for that!

There’s so many other examples that I could give you on his paradoxical behavior, the mirroring, the projection, the shamelessness… it’s all just too odd when I think about it now… this is the real aftermath. I’m sorry I couldn’t capture or tell my experience in a less extensive way… that’s the thing with ‘close encounters with narcissists’; you really need the WHOLE story to be able to explain to others what it is that they actually do to you… And then still; people don’t understand or think you’re exaggerating or that you’re just bitter… It took me 10 months, with the help of a therapist, to truly understand what happened… Anyway, again thanks for making your story available online, keep up the good work!

This is what I posted on your website as an introduction to my story:

When our relationship ended I asked Alastair what on earth it had all meant to him, his reply was; “Lise, we haven’t been able to dominate each other, you don’t fit my blueprint, I saw you as a convenience, it’s time to move on”. I asked him if he understood the essence of a relationship because it seemed to me he was much more concerned with ‘form’. He said to me: “Everything in life is about form and appearance”. I realised I was engaged and almost married to someone who defines himself by appearance and perceived me as an object, dispensable and interchangeable.

Alastair mastered the art of shifting the blame on me and he deliberately pushed my buttons to twist the knife into my vulnerabilities. This was, of course, only after we had been together for a longer period of time. He made me feel guilty and I questioned myself many times on various things and events.

He gauged reality wrongly thinking I made him look like a fool, whereas HE was the one who was insulting my friends and humiliating me in public. His thinking was inconsistent and impaired to an extend that it DID make him look like a fool, but it was impossible to reason with him. His beliefs, attitudes and behaviours contradict each other which leads him to self-blindness.

In his opinion “I dragged him down”, whereas I was the one who ended up with heart arrhythmias, I had lost 6 kilos in weight, I had moved for him (just like his ex) and in the end found myself struggling hard to get my life back in Amsterdam.

He has explained our break-up as a “gap between cultures and upbringing” impossible to bridge, but I want the truth exposed. With his poisonous cocktail of undermining behaviour, conforming to social and cultural norms and latent sadism (pointed out to me by my therapist) he tried to ‘dominate’ me and ‘look good’ in front of family and peers.

I am unable to produce scars, or other “objective” proof of my ordeal and I’m probably unable to communicate effectively the hurtful experiences I’ve been through, but I’m going to anyway.

Below I will discuss – with vivid and recognisable examples – the true colours (cynicism, paranoia, aggression, manipulation, homophobia, insults, humiliation) and the recursive, recurrent and Sisyphean failures of “the nearly-man” (this is what his friends called him back in university, typical huh…)

His father

Alastair grew up in a very traditional family featuring ‘strict father morality’. His father still sets overall family policy. He taught Alastair and his brother right from wrong with strict rules for their behaviour and enforced them through punishment sometimes administered with a stick. His father is a hypochondriac who displays his knowledge about everything and anything in such a way that you feel ill at ease in his presence. He made sure to influence (in an all pervasive way) every major decision Alastair had to make; what to study, which houses to buy, his professional career etc. His father is a frustrated school principal who laughs at the ‘hormonal weakness’ of women and takes mean-spirited pleasure in degrading the feminine especially in front of women. From the stories Alastair told me about his family, I understand that his father absolutely hated his mother (A’s grandmother).

[The child becomes a reflection of the parent, a conduit through which the parent experiences and realises himself for better (hopes, aspirations, ambition, life goals) and for worse (weaknesses, “undesirable” emotions, “negative” traits). He internalises his father’s voices in the form of a sadistic, ideal, immature Superego and spends his life trying to be perfect, omnipotent, omniscient and to be judged “a success” by these parent-images and their later representations and substitutes (authority figures).]

Homosexuals, Social Standards, Army

Alastair still believes homosexuals have chosen to be homosexuals, he thinks ‘they read it in a magazine’ and if they really wanted to they could become heterosexual. The evidence of any biological determination (genes, prenatal environment) simply bounces off his hardened position. You might as well talk to a brick wall. When I asked him what he would do if we ever had a child who turned out to be homosexual, he said that I had probably encouraged it. When I got upset he laughed and said that he just liked to throw oil on my fire. Alastair does not approve of gay marriage nor should they be allowed to have/adopt children.

He was taken to court for beating up a guy who defended a homosexual (n.b. the displacement). This was highly inconvenient because he had applied to become an army officer in training at Sandhurst. His father at that point displayed his “Daddy knows best” attitude and took care of the situation; Alastair was not made to take responsibility for what he did. Instead his lesson was; ‘If you can pay for the best attorney, you can decide yourself which laws apply to you and which do not’. He won and a couple of months later he joined the army. Talk about ‘self-righteousness’…

[In order not to be immersed in his dad’s narcissistic net he buried himself in a group that operates like a narcissistic family and requires identity with members’ goals and ethos. It is a style of life that reinforces personal non-being.]

Domination

This however wasn’t the first time he beat someone up and it sure wouldn’t be the last. About a year ago he started a fight with one of his colleague-officers. I think because he depends so much on his in-group to support his beliefs, he places a high premium on group loyalty and cohesiveness. Alastair therefore thought it was necessary to teach this particular disloyal colleague a lesson because… he dared to flirt with a woman during their ‘guys-night-out’. Yes, for flirting with a woman he beat the guy up (again: n.b. the displacement).

[The question is whether his aggression mainly serves a desire to dominate, or if the domination serves a desire to hurt others.]

Impaired thinking, shifting the blame

Alastair tries to convince everybody that divorce doesn’t exist in Northern Ireland. In a sharp debate with friends of mine (who obviously couldn’t believe him) he got me involved and said “Lise, give us one example of someone you know in Northern Ireland who got divorced”. When I immediately replied with “The sister of your neighbour C., and the mother of your best mate P.” (he must be joking, right?), he dismissed me with a wave of the hand and continued the discussion. The next morning he blamed ME for making him look like a fool.

[People with narcissistic tendencies have errors in thinking which prevents them from seeing things how they are from both sides of the picture. Not wanting to feel bad inside, they build defences such as denial, repression and a strong need to be right.]

Atheism, brutal honesty and hypocrisy

Another example: I asked him why we had to make our vows in a church even though he defends evolution and the non-existence of God in a very harsh way. Alastair is an atheist (just like his father) and was capable of making one of his colleagues in a discussion on that matter actually BURST INTO TEARS (!!). He told me the reason for getting married in a church was “Because it’s what my mother would want me to do and because it’s traditional, why no one knows”. Then something incredibly ironic happened; when he told his mom we were going to get married in a church, it turned out she never had any expectation of this kind considering my ‘background’. He told her off; “Now don’t you start too!”.

[Brutal honesty, at all costs and in all circumstances – is a form of sadistic impulse. It is this kind of brutal honesty that leads us to assume that the main problem with the self-centred narcissist is his lack of regard for others.]

[Narcissists, in accordance with their Machiavellian mind frame, will often (want to) appear religious, especially if they are leaders.]

About marriage

Don’t get me wrong, I do appreciate traditions and I respect differences in cultures, backgrounds and upbringing. I myself am from a liberal and tolerant society and I’ve lived in Amsterdam for over 9 years now. Many of my friends have been together for a long time, they have children but are not married. I therefore think marriage is not indispensable. But marriage according to Alastair was absolutely necessary if we wanted to have children and be ‘formally’ acknowledged as a couple by his family and the army.

Manipulation

There was however another, with hindsight, quite manipulative reason he had given (earlier on) for marriage; it was to make sure he wouldn’t sleep around in 5 years (I had to look at it from a ‘bloke’s perspective’). We had a discussion about it (“lots of married people still cheat on each other!”) but I didn’t pay much attention to it until I remembered what he had said about the mother of a friend who, according to Alastair, stayed in an adulterous relationship only for ‘quality of life’ reasons (i.e. for the money). So I told him that I was never going stay in an unhappy marriage, that I would never stay for economical reasons and that I would pack my bags and leave on the first train or plane back to Amsterdam.

Alastair ordered brochures from Gretna Green (a famous Scottish wedding location) and he showed me pictures of the army houses for married couples and I warmed up to the idea of getting married. Furthermore I was going to move, leave Amsterdam to finally live with him, I looked into doing a master at the university close to the place we were going live and I really wanted to have a family, after all I had turned 30 (soon to be 31), time wasn’t always going to be on my side (my general practitioner had pointed this out to me as well). What a lucky girl I was to have met this wonderful guy.

[Narcissists dance the relationship dance with you which has all the appearance of being motivated with the same motives you have. They mouth words of love and fidelity which confirm to you that you both are on the same page. Meanwhile, they feel complete aversion to real intimacy. They are not truly connecting with you on an emotional level. You are not aware of this distance. Not yet. No, they are after something very different than what you’re after.]

True Colours

My expectations were slowly but surely shattered and his ‘true colours’ started to appear during the following year, which was truly a hell for me.

When I told him I had discussed our wedding plans with one of my best friends, he all of sudden thought it wasn’t a good idea to get married yet. It all went too fast and he had second doubts… Because I wasn’t the one warming him up to the idea of getting married (it was the other way around), I could understand his doubts and possible fear, so I blamed it on ‘cold feet’. I decided to wait for the possibility to discuss things until his walls were down. Unfortunately there was never any possibility to discuss anything.

[When connected to a narcissist you don’t know what to expect. He may tell you one thing and then do another. Something you discussed and agreed on two hours ago will be dismissed. It’s as if you never had the conversation. The idea he had yesterday has changed in preference of something else today. What he agreed to do for you he won’t even admit to discussing. He offers to be reliable one minute and totally lets you down the next.]

After two months I told him that I felt he was controlling the situation and deciding for us both what was happening when and how without offering alternatives whereas two months ago we were discussing marriage and having a family… and that I just couldn’t understand. His reply was that he wanted us both to decide but it had to based on ‘knowing each other as well as we can’ (n.b. we had been together for almost 2 years). He said he wasn’t sure if I wanted to have children with HIM or just because I had turned 30… He thought if we had children that I probably wanted to be close to my family and that it therefore wasn’t a good idea to have children in Holland because then it was legally easier for me to take them with me if I was ever going to leave him, and that he now was not sure that I was never going to leave him because of what I had said to him about not staying for economical reasons… And of course, I had always said I didn’t want to get married, so he wasn’t going to ask me if he was going to be rejected.
[This is how he reverses truths, how he spins reality, how his tactics make me feel guilty, using me as a bin to drop all HIS insecurities in. Paranoia is used by the narcissist to ward off or reverse intimacy. The paranoid narrative legitimizes intimacy repelling behaviours such as keeping one’s distance, aloofness, reclusion, aggression, lying, desultoriness, unpredictability, and idiosyncratic reactions. Narcissists can’t or won’t trust, so they will test your total devotion.]

At that time I didn’t realise this yet, I only knew I was very upset and told him we were obviously on totally different wave lengths (I was right). I didn’t get any reply (typical!) but two days later I received an enormous bunch of flowers for Valentine’s Day, and… guess what happened? I felt guilty for having been hard on him, and I started doubt myself; “Maybe I did make him think all that, I hadn’t been clear on what I felt for him, or maybe he’s just insecure, maybe my expectations were unrealistic etc etc”.

[Cycles of idealisation followed by devaluation characterise many personality disorders. They reflect the need to be protected against the whims, needs, and choices of others, shielded from the hurt that they can inflict on the narcissist.]

So time went on and for two months things were more or less ok, but we somehow weren’t able to discuss our ‘future agenda’ again. Then he told me that when he was to start his new post, he wanted to get settled in his new place in Holland on his own first and that if we were going to move in with each other we should better buy a house together. He knew that this was something I did not want to do; we were only staying for 2 years in Holland (his next post was going to be in the UK again) and it didn’t make sense to me to buy a house especially if we were provided one by the army (remember; HE showed me the brochures).

[If you actually want to do what a narcissist wants you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so he will not want it anymore. By withholding whatever they know you want, narcissists make themselves feel important.]

Then he asked me to explain why I wanted to do the master and if I thought it was going to be of ‘financial benefit’ to us? I was shocked that I had to explain this but still tried to ‘make sense’ out of it and I explained to him that an English master was surely going to benefit us if I was to move with him to the UK. I also explained that I was in a professional field in which I was never going to make a lot of money and that studying was purely out of an interest to learn things… he somehow managed to make me feel (again) guilty about it. He told me I needed to get balanced in what I wanted.

One evening however I couldn’t ignore my ‘gut-feeling’ anymore and I phoned him up very angry and upset asking him to be clear on where we stood. He didn’t say anything and hung up the phone to never answer again.

[The silent treatment (feigned apathy; cold-shoulder, silence, distance and ignoring you) is a punishment used by abusers to make you feel unimportant, not valued, not cared about and completely absent from the abuser’s thoughts. The silent treatment is CONTROL and a safe means for them to avoid any ‘uncomfortable’ topics, issues in the relationship, or issues within himself.]

In an extremely angry email I wrote him that I was fed up with him and the army, fed up with him hanging up the phone on me and I told him to go f**k himself. A week later he wrote me an e-mail saying “he had been on an emotional rollercoaster but that he was not angry and totally understood my ‘worries and concerns’ (n.b. how it now had officially become MY problem) about life with him and that he wasn’t sure enough about what life had to offer me outside Amsterdam to convince or persuade me that everything would be great”. To ‘reassure’ me he said he wasn’t looking for other women but he just needed to clear his head… (n.b. the manipulation again!!)

He ceased all communication and ignored me for another two weeks. I wrote him a card saying I was sorry for the things I said and wished him good luck for the Belfast marathon he was going to run the following weekend. He phoned me up just after he finished the marathon and I – relieved we were on speaking terms again – congratulated him on his accomplishment. He told me his parents (who live in Belfast) did not come to watch him and that he didn’t know anymore what he had to do to impress them (kinda weird: 33 year old army officer still wanting approval… but then again; his parents didn’t blink an eye, that’s strange too..).

[Mirroring is a theory developed by Heinz Kohut whereby children have their talk and accomplishments acknowledged, accepted and praised by others, e.g. parents. It is important for a child’s legitimate feelings of grandiosity to be mirrored by its parents. Children who do not get enough mirroring (admiration, attention etc.) are considered by many psychologists to be at risk of developing a narcissistic personality later in life.

If the child does not feel his parents love him for himself, apart from accomplishments, he will develop what object relations theorists call the “false self,” the self that is fabricated in order to get the approval of his parents, based on the ability to achieve good grades, a good job, a good mate, etc.]

A week later he asked me if I still wanted to come to England, he was doing a course there and we had already booked this flight a couple of months ago. I told him I did, thinking this was finally going to solve things. When I was there we discussed a couple of issues and he literally said I needed to know that if I wanted to be with an army officer, the relationship was only going to work if I was willing to sacrifice. This should have been (again) a major red flag for me… but no, I really thought that this was realistic and said that I knew how important his work was for him and that I would never expect him to leave the army for me (his ex made him choose between her and the army). That I was happy to take on army-life and that I understood what it implied (thinking this would then finally convince him that I was committed and serious).

A couple of weeks later he paid me a surprise visit during a weekend in Amsterdam and of course we had a wonderful time (it always was, the peaks were high) but something happened at the end of that lovely weekend. He flew back to Bristol and on his way back to Shrivenham in the car I phoned him. He said he had been talking to his brother about the issues his brother and his girlfriend had at the time. He finished the story by saying; “But hey… my brother’s just like me, in the end he always gets what he wants”…

[A true narcissist is almost totally wrapped up in themselves, and the entire world revolves around their needs and desires. The shameless sense of entitlement with which persons suffering from narcissism can impose themselves and their personal agenda on others, can be a very baffling experience to be exposed to.]

To cut a long story (I did have doubts about the relationship but he always lured me back in) short; he finished his course in England, I got my nursing degree (he didn’t attend my graduation), he moved back to Holland and he proposed to me a couple of months later on a ski-trip to Germany. I left Amsterdam, moved in with him and in the end it was me who organised the wedding; designed the different evening/day, Dutch/English invitations, made appointments for the church and other locations, looked up information on prenuptial agreements/pensions, made a list of hotels and B&B’s, put together a wedding list at a warehouse, and at the same time I had just started a new job, I attended a methodology and statistics class once a week (still attempting to do that master) and was trying very, very hard to make it all work.

My heart at this point had started to ‘arrhythmically’ signal me; “maybe I was overdoing things here”, but I didn’t listen. And yes; Alastair still wanted to buy a house because his best mate P. had wound him up about his new 5 bedroom house with a swimming pool in the garden. So I checked three different independent sources of info on tax, mortgages, locations etc. and I still didn’t think it was a good idea but Alastair just simply ignored me (again!) and I found myself looking at houses with him the following weeks. Having a child at this point was of course a ridiculous idea, even I had to admit that and I had put it out of my head. Guess what happened? He strangely all of a sudden talked to me more and more about having a family, after all we were soon to be married and he could now imagine himself as “the daddy” of the family.

Insulting friends

In the meantime, just before Alastair was sent to Afghanistan again, we were invited one weekend to the Belgian Ardennes by my best friends Linda and Ramon. This was supposed to be a nice relaxing break but it turned into a nightmare. There were 8 other people and the first evening everyone got very drunk and Ramon had hit a nerve with Alastair by saying that he had done a great job in getting me to marry him because I would be the last person anyone would ever expect to get married… This lead into a discussion; another friend explained to Alastair that even though he wanted to get married to his girlfriend, his girlfriend did not (because she had been married before) and he said that his relationship with her was far more important than ‘getting married’. Alastair got up, pointed at him and said: “This means that I WON and YOU LOST and that YOUR CHILD IS A BASTARD”.

[Narcissists are individuals who lack empathy for others, are self serving, and engage in competitive conflict with others. Competitive conflict is a form of conflict resolution in which individuals perceive other’s progress as interfering with their own.]

He later on said ‘sorry’ to me (he had no recollection of anything that happened that night) but when I suggested not to apologise to me but to P. he claimed: “Why would I, the Dutch always brag about freedom of speech, but when you tell someone the truth they are offended”.

[Narcissistically impelled people are incapable of genuine expressions of remorse, because inherent in an apology is the admission that one is not needless and faultless. Narcissists cannot see how their behaviour looks to others, and if confronted by their own behaviour in another, refuse to accept it.]

This should have done it for me, right? I mean my heart was signalling me, he was insulting my friends but when I talked to my (non-N) friends about it and asked for their opinion (again major red flags all over the place) they said to me; “Lise, we all know the context in which he said things, and we all know he’s just a very traditional guy” (and the wedding invitations had already been sent..).

I will discuss the events that finally led to our break-up in a minute, but first a couple of more personality traits:

Cynicism

During A’s first post in Holland (this is when we met) a sergeant major (B., nice guy!) helped him with everything; getting installed in his new place, at work, being invited out in the town etc. I thought they had developed a real friendship until Alastair said something very condescending about him.

B. was divorced, he had not been in a relationship for a long time but he recently met a woman through handball (he’s a coach). They had been together for 3 months when she found out she was pregnant. B. wanted to talk to Alastair about it, or at least share his story. His girlfriend wanted an abortion but B. wasn’t sure. Alastair listened, wished him good luck and when he left I said to Alastair that I could see that B. was in despair. He looked at me and cynically said: “Don’t be so naive, B. is only interested and keen because she’s pregnant and that makes him feel good about himself. As soon as she has the abortion, he will leave her.”… (Just for the record: B is still with his girlfriend).

[Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people’s feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, work, etc.]

Another cynical worldview: According to Alastair the looting of the blacks in New Orleans during the hurricane Katrina, just showed their ‘bad immoral mentality’ compared to the virtuous people from California who were willing to help each other in putting out the fires around their villas. Alastair had difficulty to understand my explanation that a ‘nothing to lose’ situation sometimes brings out the worst in people.

[People with narcissistic tendencies have errors in thinking which prevents them from seeing things how they are from both sides of the picture.]

Break-up

One evening I came back from work and I was tired, Alastair asked me to go out and have an aperitif with some colonel. I told him I was not in the mood, I could see this annoyed him, he didn’t ask me why but just asked me to make food for when he returned. While walking on egg-shells again, I told him I could make dinner for more colleagues if he wanted to invite them over.

He came back 4 hours later with two female officers and they were all drunk. One officer left quite early, the other one, K., stayed on for a bit. They were talking about a discussion she had that afternoon with a corporal. From the discussion Alastair concluded that they addressed each other familiarly (i.e. they called each other by their first names). He said that no corporal fucknuts was ever to call him by his first name. This hit a nerve with me and I told him that I thought it was rather disrespectful to call a corporal a fucknuts because in the end he’s the frontline soldier who actually gets killed in a war. He looked at me (his eyes became black, I’m not exaggerating) and said: “If you think doctors speak differently about nurses, you’re ignorant. In their eyes you’re a NURSE FUCKNUTS too”.

Voilà… that was the proverbial last straw that broke my back; if this was the man I was going to marry, I’d rather DIE. I slammed a kitchen cupboard door (3 glasses fell out) and asked K. to leave. I went nuts and screamed at him that this was the last time he was ever going to insult me or my friends again and that I was now leaving.

As I started to pack my bags he entered the bedroom and screamed with a weird hoarse voice; “Are you leaving ME? That’s NOT going to happen. Here, I will help you pack your bags” and he started to pack all my bags for me… When he finished he went out to get more drunk. When he came back completely wasted on alcohol he said that I dragged him down, that he was more intelligent than me and that he just wasn’t able to tell me in a ‘normal way’ that he saw no future for us.

[To be in control – this unconquerable drive – is the direct result of being deserted, neglected, avoided, or abused at an early stage in life. “Never again” – vows the narcissist – “If anyone will do the leaving, it will be me.” He is liberated and unshackled by his own self-initiated abandonment, he insists. He never really wanted this commitment and anyhow, the relationship was doomed from the beginning by the egregious excesses and exploits of his wife or partner.

If he does not get attached – he cannot be hurt. If not intimate – he cannot be emotionally blackmailed. If he does not persevere – he has nothing to lose. If he does not stay put – he cannot be expelled. If he rejects or abandons – he cannot be rejected or abandoned. The narcissist anticipates the inevitable schisms and emotional abysses in a life fraught with gross dishonesty.

The truth is that, governed by his internal demons, the narcissist has no real choice. The dismal future of his relationships is preordained. Realizing that he is doomed to go through the same traumas over and over again, the narcissist distances himself by using his aggression to alienate, to humiliate and in general, to be emotionally absent.]

A few days later we cancelled the wedding and of course he had to explain to his parents the cause of the break-up. Guess what he told them? That we had a row because I didn’t want to buy a house with him and that I slammed kitchen cupboard doors!!! His mother said that putting up with that sort of behaviour couldn’t be good and that is was alright for him to reconsider marriage…

[Narcissists ‘gaslight’ routinely. The narcissist will either insinuate or will tell you outright that you’re unstable, oversensitive and hysterical. Once he’s constructed these fantasies of your emotional pathologies, he’ll tell others about them, as always, presenting his smears as expressions of concern and declaring his own helpless victim hood.

He didn’t do anything. He has no idea why you’re so irrationally angry with him. While absolving himself of any responsibility for your obvious antipathy towards him, implying that there’s something fundamentally wrong with you that makes you angry with him, he’s undermined your credibility with his listeners.]

He paid for my lawyers costs (I had legal troubles to get my place back in Amsterdam), and in return he asked me to give him back the emerald stones (which he bought for the engagement ring) because they reminded him of the time he was in Afghanistan. No emotional attachment to nothing… it was just ANOTHER slap in my face… and so the list goes on…

Liselotte – First, you should kiss the ground that you didn’t say “I do.” Allistair’s father sounds like a narcissist himself. Nothing a child can ever do is “good enough” for a narcissistic parent.

A narcissist’s “thinking errors” and the “competitive conflict” are mind boggling. When taken as individual incidents, a narcissist’s strange comments or bad behavior can seem odd, but not pathological. (So many people who are not familiar with NPD are quick to dismiss them as @ssholes or as you say “think you’re bitter.”). But those of us who’ve gotten close to one of these emotional black holes, know the truth. Thank you so much for sharing your own “close encounter.” Jan

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Someone - February 4, 2010

I was knowingly cringing throughout the whole text

One thinks common sense will prevail, and then a new, out of leftfield trail, suddenly appearing

The mind is constantly boggled

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Sarah - December 29, 2013

Oh, your story sounds so much like mine, down to the parts of having heart arrythmias and becoming a nurse. Scary how these people are so similar and prey on us. Best of everything to you – thank heavens you were aware enough to not marry the douche. I wasn’t so lucky….

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20. seacaspian - February 8, 2009

Thank you Jan for the wonderful insight on NPD. I have suspected that I might have NPD because a lot of the traits detailed here I share, such as seeking people out purely for validation, grandiosity, and the destructive actions of devaluation and discarding. I can recollect various relationships I have had in my life where I did these things. However, I am confused about it. I know there is something amiss with my personality and I am aware of the false self. I can be quite a charmer when I feel like it and I am aware I have an agenda, but interestingly enough, that agenda is buried under layers of consciousness and not thought out in a systematic way. Yes, I have seen myself as a monster because I struggle with empathy and basic human emotions. There are times when I know I should feel a certain way for someone, but I simply cannot. I was not always this aware, but as I grew up and experienced consistent difficulties with my social life I wanted to know why. Perhaps being bi-polar II along with this PD helps me out in this endeavor because when the depression phase kicks in, I’ll go over all my perceived transgressions and proceed to rip myself a new one over it. Over time, I have learned to utilize my depressive phase not as a way to hate on myself, but as a way to take a hard and objective look at who I am and how I really operate and what other people perceive me as.

PD is extremely difficult to get over. I agree that the disorder is intricately interwoven with the fibers of my personality and only through diligent analysis of my actions and a constant endeavor to do better will I have a successful recovery. I pray that one day I can experience what it is like to be close to another human being without being scared or feeling awkward or drawing a blank. I know that day will eventually come, but I must work very hard for it, and it is easy to slip back into my old form, as it is very much a part of me.

Thank you all for your posts and insights – I am sorry that you were victimized by someone with narcissistic personality disorder, but not all beings who suffer from this socially debilitating affliction relish in it. I hope that each of you will recover successfully from your encounters with people that have NPD. I also hope that the perpetrators (NPDrs) will eventually gain enough courage to open their eyes so they can wage effective combat against their inner demons, rather than become seduced by the alluring call of “me first at all costs”.

seacaspian-Your awareness of your behavior is not unusual, but feeling bad about it and wanting to change are. I’m going to put up a new post soon and would like to use some of your comments and provide a link to another site where the author shares similar sentiments. I agree with Sam Vaknin’s statement that, “Self-reflection is the antonym of NPD.” Jan

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Someone - February 4, 2010

Why would you use Mr Vaknin’s words, seeing that he is a narcissist himself ? His site is “overswamp”, anyone wanting to understand NPD is drawn into an endless spidernet…

I urge people to seek other sites, simpler created blogs ect

Here’s one that explains NPD very clearly and simply (one or two things I disagree with…. that narcissists never have experienced neglect/abuse… or something along those lines… and some comment on gender, otherwise it’s 99% accurate imo)

http://www.chameleongroup.org.uk/npd/index.html

I checked this site out and am unclear who the author is. I also did not find it to be particularly well written. But I think it’s hard to improve on the Halycon site on my blogroll, which I hold up as the gold standard. I agree that Sam Vaknin’s writing can be overwhelming – at first. I don’t have a problem with “using his words” just because he’s got NPD. I think his tell all confessional, which has elevated him to his coveted role of an “expert,” has taught everyone a thing or two. Sometimes you have to go into the belly of the beast to see their twisted view of the world. I don’t think any psychiatrist/psychologist/therapist out there could have provided a more accurate picture of what it’s like to be NPD.
Jan

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Someone - February 4, 2010

The alcohol passages I find a bit dangerous, the rest is pretty clear and to the point

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kitten - April 10, 2011

I have been though a two year relationship with a man who has NPD, and I can say like many others that the only help and comfort I have gained is through self-education and these web-site posts. No one can understand what it is like unless they have been there. But as someone earlier had said, there isn’t closure. Seacaspian, I find it great that you are trying to find the kind of happiness we all try to help someone with NPD with. I think it would greatly help me to speak with someone who has this condition and cares, and tries to understand how to make a better life and not distroy people around him or her. My NPD would never admit to issues and lives girl after girl, resulting in no real happiness, his friends are just drinking buddies, and he has NO ONE who he can rely on or care for even if he wanted to. I think its sad. I have thought many times that just the acceptance of the condition and trying to move forward is something. I would think if you wanted to be cared for, that it would be better to be with a great person who was fun, who maybe you grew with you and helped you with this issue than alone, even if you didn’t feel the same way they did? I don’t know. I want to know from someone with NPD, if there is ever a point that you realize you may not feel the same, but appreciate that there may be someone who you could at least co-exist with in an relationship who would help make it work, and maybe take the good with the bad…I guess it would be up to the other person in the relationship. I just don’t think it is hopeless at all for anyone who is trying and wants to do better and overcome, but there are so few.

Kitten,
What you’re proposing makes perfect sense, BUT – you’re thinking logically and like a caring human. Deb recently commented on another post and put up a link to “Does a Narcissist Know They’re a Narcissist” which I found interesting. It confirmed that even when Ns know their behavior hurts others, they blame this on others’ inability to see how truly wonderful they are. I have yet to meet someone with NPD who wanted to change. “It’s just the way I am,” Joe would say. Any effort by another to “help” them only devalues that person in the N’s eyes. I say this from experience albeit a painful one. Jan

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21. seacaspian - February 9, 2009

Thank you for your comment, Jan. Alwaysjan, your detailed and descriptive account of your harrowing engagement with a narcissist was an awesome read so far, and sheds much insight.

The narcissist have three stages in a relationship: charming intrigue, devaluation and discarding. Currently, I am in phase 2 with a friend of mine, and am in the process of trying to abort phase 2. I find myself going back to phase 1, and even though the three phases of narcissism are ugly, phase 1, the charming phase at least can have beauty. I am finding myself forcing myself to listen, to try to show some level of interest, even identify something within what is being shared to talk about. I suppose recovery is akin to learning how to grow up and play well with the other kids (or adults, in this case). I guess at first a lot of the social behaviors we normally acquire were positively re-enforced, and though at first they had to be consciously and meticulously acted out when very young, the acceptable behaviors and mannerisms were repeated so often they became automatic. In the case of a narcissist, they positive enforcement was either warped, inconsistent or not even there. The NPD child may have been thrust out into the harshness of the world at too tender of an age, and as a result closed up and built a wall.

I guess while in the throws of phase one, I have to always scrutinize every single motive behind what I say and do. At the same time, it’s like trying to float in water… always kicking, lest suffer regression into phase 2 and the eventual and abrupt phase 3 that follows. I used to take pride at how efficiently I broke off with people when I got scared. I guess it’s a matter of convincing myself that I’m no longer a child and can protect myself, even when I’m vulnerable, learning to re-enforce this thought even when I feel I come under fire.

It is great to stumble upon sites rich in information like these, thank you Jan for your posts and everyone else for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I disagree with Jan on one point and that is the impression that I received that there is no hope for the narcissist, because the disorder is interwoven so intricately within the fabric of personality; that the narcissist is not able to change. I also disagree with the notion the narcissist has a heart but no soul to contain it. From my experience, I think narcissism is not a flaw in a person’s soul, nor does it make for a completely rotten person. I feel that narcissism is a flaw in the “computer code” that governs the automatic experience-response mechanisms that exist and operate in our personalities. Everyone wrote their own code when they grew up, but who’s to say that you cannot patch that code? It’s possible, it takes a lot of work and it’s exhausting at times, because the narcissist feels that he has to constantly humor everyone to be socially acceptable. However, brutally honest self-awareness is the first step.

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22. Emma - March 31, 2009

I am glad you mentioned that Narcissists are often drawn to vibrant, vital people. They themselves (Vaknin among them) like to think of their “prey” as inferior or weak and not “above” them. Let me tell you, I am prime Narcissistic Supply BECAUSE I possess many good qualities 😉

I realize I have attracted them partly because I have a vulnerability since childhood BUT also because I’m everything they are not!

Now I take it as a compliment when they approach me and THEN I RUN AS HELL! 🙂

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jackie - April 10, 2012

WOW well said !!!!

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23. Close Encounter with a Narcissist - Part 2 « planetjan - April 11, 2009

[…] Click on this link to read Close Encounter with a Narcissist – Part 3. […]

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24. Kathy - May 5, 2009

Great articles Jan, keep writing. Particulary enjoyed your perspective on narcissist as co-worker versus spouse/loved one.

[…A word of warning: A narcissist will never give his victim the validation they so desperately seek, or closure. This final act of control and cruelty leaves his victim hanging and twisting in the wind. This brings a smile to the narcissist’s face.]

The above quote had me rolling on the ground — my (fortunately EX-) narcissistic boyfriend actually said he knew his behaviors left “others swinging, unknown and unknowable, in the wind’ and he probably took pride in this, he certainly loved his air of mystery and never did anything to change the confusion and uncertainty that surrounded him. They are certainly a different animal!

Thanks again for the articles.

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25. Mary - August 31, 2009

Every day when he gets up he feels the need to recite all that he is going to do for the day and if anything happens to change his plans, he explodes, even over the slightest thing. He acts like a real stud in bed, especially after we have had an arguement, thats his way of making up, no love or hugs I am currently going through a breakup with a classic narcissist. He two timed his wife with me and has cheated on me many times, always denying it when he gets caught. He is cold even to our ten year old son, nothing he does is good enough. Everytime he greets my son, if he is not responded to in a certain manner he flips out and sceams at him that he is rude and bad mannered, he is combative, won’t let anything go, won’t back down from an arguement, even if it’s just to keep the peace. He has to win at all costs calls me filthy names and makes sure he always has the last word in an arguement. He has been telling me the same story for twelve years that “someday, he will divorce his wife” but it would be too costly financially to do so, so he lives off me. I do his laundry, cook his meals and pay the bills. He literally looks at himself in the mirror and announces “I would f@#k me”
st a big performance. He expects a big fanfare when he goes into our local bar, high fiving everyone, telling his stories about his heroism, he was a cop, often dragging our son around and just throwing money at him to make him go away and buy himself something to amuse him while he got drunk.
Meanwhile he spends tons of money on his outfits. It’s pathetic but he even admitted that he dresses up to suit where ever it is he’s going, i.e. if its to home depot, it’s construction boots and a plaid shirt, meanwhile he’s useless around the house, and if he was ever there it was to pick up paint for me years ago. He believes that any one working there would take him more seriously.
I could go on a and on, I am going to need a lot of therapy to recover from this and keep this loser away from me.

Mary – So many women are convinced that when a Narcissist moves on to another woman, things might be different. They mentally beat themselves up wondering what the other person can offer that they can’t. Your experience provides proof that a narcissist poisons every relationship. Sounds like both you and your son could use therapy, but make sure the therapist has experience with personality disorders. Most people I know say it took about two years to come out of the haze and feel like it was behind them. I know that doesn’t help much if you’re on Day One and thinking, “Gee, only 729 days to go!” My sister-in-law is recovering from breast cancer and said to her mind, the real cancer in her life was her ex-husband who had NPD. Best of luck. At least you see him for who/what he is. Jan

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26. sandrar - September 10, 2009

Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post… nice! I love your blog. 🙂 Cheers! Sandra. R.

Thanks. Today was the first day of school, and It was nice to come home to a smiley face. Jan

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27. Jane - December 29, 2009

Hi! Dear Jan, Its me, your relative who had eight children with an NPD. You are an amazing writer. I’ve read this several times before throughout the past few years and now after the past year and a half of harrowing, growth promoting, life changing experiences, I am brave enough to look at this in the face. For some reason, I couldn’t approach it before. This past year while facing cancer, surgery, chemotherapy, a flood, then a devastating house fire that displaced all nine of us, (yes, I’m still raising eight alone) I can look at this without wincing for once. Now, NPD is clearer to me than ever. A close friend of mine from Colorado who went through breast cancer when I was still with Mr. NPD, said to me when I told her my diagnosis, “Hey, you can do this…If you can live with K(NPD) for 14 years, you can get through breast cancer!”

It has been seven years since Mr. NPD walked out the door. He left on the pretense that he was “off to school to get further education in his field of expertise.” I knew the truth, it was there every day in my face. He despised all of us and the life that we “made him” live on a daily basis. We were his burden. We were his misery. There was a better life that he could have had if we hadn’t burdened him down with the mundane. Besides, we were all so incompetent. Unworthy of his conversation or thoughts. We had no purpose for him, we brought him no joy or happiness. We were not the family he had perfected in his plans. He expected “prime-rib” but always got “McDonalds” from us. When he left, I had at home, 8 children under the age of 11 years. The youngest were 1 year old twin girls. They were all his biological children. I had eight children with him and when he did leave, all ten of us rejoiced. We wept with joy and relief, we felt as though we had just been released from a concentration camp run by the spawn of Hitler himself.

I know for years, you were probably asking, “Why does she stay with that @sshole?” I have realized that until you live it, its hard to understand. I’m not even sure I do. I feel as though my personality is finally coming back to life. It took going to the edge of death (chemotherapy) to bring me back to life. I am finally rid of Him. (in my physical cells) Like some others who have responded to your blog, felt like I could help him. Same thing, If I could only get to that core person…your analogy of an onion is so perfect. Your series of NPD, is becoming most helpful to my teens who are wondering about their “father”. The first one has spent this year on and off trying to “work out” a relationship with him. Jan, your article is most insightful and will help a struggling 19 year old boy begin to understand the “end is at the beginning.” Love to you. J.

Jane – Yes, I did wonder why you stayed with him. I stopped being judgmental after I got up close to someone with NPD and realized how hard it is for people on the “outside” to see what’s really going on. I now understand the subtle erosion of your identify as you jump through hoops trying to please them. Jane, You are one of the most vital, caring people I know, and I am SO proud of you. Your children are all so amazing because of YOU. You have not only survived, but triumphed. Always, Jan

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28. Michelle - December 31, 2009

Jan… The story above could be my story. Although, I only spent five years with the man, it felt like an eternity. Everyday felt like the last. I didn’t know how I was going to wake up in the morning, because life was so miserable. I have spent the last 15 months trying to divorce him, but he won’t let go. He didn’t want to be married to me, but he doesn’t want anyone else to have me either. It is an endless and very expensive battle. To tie into your other blog regarding the New Year, I am trying to stay calm and carry on. I hope 2010 brings a resolution for me and my children. My family is ready to move-on with our lives and be rid of NPD!

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29. CZBZ - January 8, 2010

Hi all!

Jan left a message on my blog, inviting me to read the commentary to her article on ‘narcissism’. Thanks, Jan!

Many of us have struggled to understand how we could love someone who was incapable of bonding, empathy, reciprocal caring and commitment.

I think one of the hardest things we face is ourselves. Why we didn’t know our partner was not committed to us…why we stayed. What there is about us that made the narcissistic relationship even possible?

The self-blame is very hard to overcome, especially since NPD is not understood by the average person. Finding ‘validation’ for our experience is difficult and without it, we stay stuck in self-blame far too long.

The fact is: anyone can meet and fall in love with a narcissist. There isn’t anyone who doesn’t have a few issues or ‘red flags’, even ourselves. How can we know someone will not eventually correct their behavior and Grow Up with us? I don’t think we can know that…

People who stay with narcissists tend to be some of the kindest, most compassionate and understanding people you will ever meet. I suppose the Silver Lining in this experience has been meeting wonderful people who did their very best to support a struggling partner. In the end, our intentions are proof of our character.

Maybe we didn’t realize how extraordinary it was to be so supportive and generous…hopefully, the healing process will restore our integrity and sense of worth. We certainly take a beating once the narcissist chooses to act on his or her selfishness. When the narcissist leaves, he or she makes we’re suffering as much as possible for failing them.

One thing I hope people will remember is that we were making our decisions based on the assumption that all people wanted to be loved, to be kind, to be accepted. That all people have a conscience and make mistakes which they hope to correct, if only someone will forgive and support them.

Had we known about NPD, we would have had a different context from which to question our assumptions. For that reason, I hope information about NPD will spread like wildfire and help the people who are still caught in the narcissist’s illusions.

There are people on this planet who cannot ‘bond’ to others, who will always serve themselves first, who will manipulate and use others like serviceable objects.

First and foremost (because I know every person who has been in a N-relationship has suffered illegitimate guilt and blame): it is not your fault. There is nothing about YOU that is defective or unconsciously driven to choose an abuser. It could happen to anyone. And once you are IN the relationship, it is very, very difficult to get OUT.

Hugs,
CZ

CZ – I’m under the impression you have children (though they could have been blown away in that Idaho wind). I was especially interested in your thoughts as to how to explain to children why their father was the way he was. But thank you for replying to my sister-in-law’s comment. You have such a wealth of information and insight that is so valuable to so many. I often refer people to your site as you have the perspective that comes from having walked the walk. Each time I read something you’ve written, I learn something. Thanks! Jan

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30. Someone - February 4, 2010

“One thing I hope people will remember is that we were making our decisions based on the assumption that all people wanted to be loved, to be kind, to be accepted. That all people have a conscience and make mistakes which they hope to correct, if only someone will forgive and support them.

Had we known about NPD, we would have had a different context from which to question our assumptions. For that reason, I hope information about NPD will spread like wildfire and help the people who are still caught in the narcissist’s illusions.”

Someone – I totally agree with you. Who amongst us knew that such a condition existed? When I first read about it, I was aghast. If only I had known. More importantly, now I do. Spread the word. Jan

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31. KT - April 23, 2010

For me, it’s been trying to be in my grown up self and seeing the man I was/am with for all his limitations. It isn’t easy to do, to take that high road instead of drowning in a pool of “what did I (or didn’t I) do? How could I have changed it?” Much easier to go spiralling into my child self…beat myself up, remember “better times”, cling to promises from the past as if fixing it with my N partner could somehow fix “everything”. I am getting better, for that I am grateful. I do cry, but less, when he doesn’t call/text/see me. I am building a life and trying to not be so available. I do care about him…like seacaspian, he has expressed issues with empathy and intimacy. At times, it is hard not to think that whatever I say comes across as a request/desire for closeness…so he pulls away. This is frustrating since I don’t have a chance to explain that no, not everything is about intimacy. But that is who he is and that I expect won’t change.

KT -I can relate to your comment, "Whatever I say comes across as a request/desire for closeness – so he pulls away." This is SO not normal and leaves you wanting to say something, but then deciding not to cause you don't want to see the look on their face if you do say something. It's hard to deal with that look of disgust. It does not bode well for the future. Jan

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32. Wiser woman - May 2, 2010

Very interesting comments and stories… i have been involved with a N for 8 years, 4 married and 4 going through a divorce that he has only one objective in… to destroy me and my finances (already the bill is $350,000) and to make himself look as if he is the victim to his followers. My biggest regret is the issues our 4 year old child will have to deal with.
It certainly made me very reluctant to ever be in a relationship with anyone ever again. I am perfectly content rearing my child alone and not falling into that trap again.. i do not have trust for anyone who has been divorced (as he was) because u wonder why that person could not maintain a stable marriage.
Not sure if I could trust a widowed man as my ex (to my deepest belief) tried to have me either kill myself or die in child birth or have a “brake failure” after he obtained $1million in life insurance and his name put on all my assets and family assets and businesses.
So this takes alot of healing,forgiveness, time, and I would rather be alone than have any further experiences as I have had the past 8 years…
BTW, the IRS can actually be your friend in these cases cause the tax law doesn’t apply to N’s as well…

~alone, tired, but happy

Wiser – My first response was, “Holy Hellhole!” Glad you’re crawling out from under this horrible experience. You do need time to process what happened before you can ever trust someone again. Everyone I know who’s had a close encounter with a narcissist never looks at humans quite the same again. They have their guard up, just in case. I have a close friend who’s in the midst of a contentious divorce with a N. Her four-year-old son has to “exchange hands” at the sheriff’s station. Her soon-to-be ex plays games with her using their child as the intermediary. So, you’re right in being concerned with how this will affect your child. But having one loving, sane parent, who’s not within shouting distance of a N is a good start. Jan

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33. LettingGo - July 2, 2010

So Jan what exactly broke the N-chantment Spell for you? I know you listed all the red flags, so was it a Combination Effect or was their a Proverbial Last Straw Moment? When reading how Joe said he would slit your wrists for you that gave me chills. That would have evidence that he is a psycho and would have been a Truth Too Painful To Ignore.

I am so glad the N-chantment Spell has broken from the Counterfeit Friend and you now know you were dealing w/an evil NVamp.

I have started writing about Counterfeit People in the Land of Narcissism. I am not a professional writer, just a person who was born into the KON (Kingdom of Narcissism) and has recently escaped an entire NFOO.
http://dealingwithtoxicpeople.blogspot.com/2010/04/great-counterfeits-in-land-of.html

Letting Go – Thanks for your kind words. I’ll check out your blog pronto. Writing about these experiences provides a wonderful catharsis. The hardest part about explaining the hows and whys of what happened is that the details would give away “Joe’s” identity. I’ve tried to maintain my professionalism as an educator and a blogger, so this has been difficult.

One minute I was his “go to ” person. Then I’d be in the same room and look right through me. It was so odd. He’s in his 40s, but has never had a real “relationship.” He’d make the most bizarre sexual comments, which always left me dumbfounded. If I said anything, his reply was always the same. “That’s just the way I am. There’s nothing off limits with me.”

I think I realized he was just a cardboard cutout of a human being, who professed to having many talents, but was a legend in his own mind. He never asked about ME. No one likes a mirror that talks back. Jan

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34. Rebecca - July 30, 2010

Hi…. Stumbled across your site in my attempts to find new information on narcissism. The incessant search for answers has been my method of healing from 3 1/2 years in a relationship with a man I now know was suffering from NPD. Key word here…. suffering. As an empathetic, loving, joyful person myself, I thought I just might be able to influence him! I am in recovery from alcoholism with 23 years of sobriety and been blessed with a return to a sane, healthy life. He, as well, was a recovering alcoholic. Part of our belief in a 12 step program is that we can’t, but God can. So, I think I believed in his case, God could. His issues go so far beyond addiction. I now know that. I had never heard of the condition NPD before this relationship. He certainly was classic. Initially, I thought we had so much in common, both recovering alcoholics, uncannily similar childhoods. I now know common dysfunction does not necessarily portend a magic connection! You mentioned it all…And, in retrospect, it was all right there, from the beginning. It made me scratch my head initially and say, “Huh”.. But, it tends to get overlooked, because the abuse isn’t as blatant as someone hitting you, and they tend to be rather successful (mine was anyhow- think John Edwards as well). You begin to rationalize their behavior. He would often make comments I thought inappropriate to others. H felt entitled to not have to wait in line, never on time, with no apology. He was the consummate name dropper. Everyone was only as good as their title,the country club they belonged to, where their children went to school. He even referred to his past dates as candidates (ie: The PhD candidate, the MD candidate). Most of our outings were things he loved to do, ballgames, physical activities… They are horrible gift givers for the most part, which again I minimized in thinking I was being ungrateful when he would buy me something that would be a benefit to him or something he liked to do ( a camera he liked, I had one, or a bicycle comes to mind), or just plain tell you he couldn’t find anything he thought suited you. They can’t buy you gifts, because they don’t listen to your likes, dislikes, etc. They lie when it would be easier to tell the truth and are constantly checking out other women, when they are with you. More than likely sleeping with them as well. I found single earrings on his car floor, condoms suddenly appearing in the nightstand. They will text and talk on their phone, even when at special dinners. Those things you tend to excuse early on. Then it simply snow balls. The first hurtful comment he made to me was, while he was actually holding me in his arms! He said, “I ask myself, why am I in love with you? It’s not like you are the prettiest or the smartest.”Our relationship was on again, off again for all those years. Just when I would get strong, he would return, with statements about missing me terribly and desperate for my love. And, I would allow him to return. His reasons for leaving… You were miserable, and it was making me miserable, and I thought I could do better. They also tend to have a real obsession for pornography, phone sex, and strip clubs…. excessively so, and I think they actually prefer it to the sexual act with another. This disorder is so insidious, before you realize it, you are sicker than the narcissist. I have/had pretty good self-esteem initially, but found myself declining into his black hole of emptiness. When I finally had the courage to end it, he then pursued me relentlessly with letters of love, checks in the mail, anything to get some of his badly needed narcissistic supply. By the grace of God, I have been able to ignore all of his attempts at re-engaging me for almost a year now. I have had no contact, whatsoever. But, I would love to see a Part Four on the effects of the narcissists victims. I have had a number of relationships through the years, some ended well, others not so well, but none have I had a more difficult time regaining my energy, and self-esteem back. Even with all the details I listed about, I find myself asking the question, “What in the hell was that all about?” I keep wanting some kind of real closure and I cannot seem to find it. I want to make sense of it, and this is a sickness you can never make sense of. How is it possible for a human being to treat others in such an inhumane manner? I am told by a therapist friend, the symptoms of victims (like me) of NPD mirror one suffering from PTSD. That is exactly how I feel. It helped to read in your article, that closure with these characters is never possible. It also helps to think of him as a cardboard cutout of a human being, a flat, emotionless, caricature. You clearly have done the best job of explaining this of anything I have read on the internet. Even Sam Vankin, who I struggle with reading, because I feel he gets his personal narcissistic supply from his own writings! Thank you so much!

Rebecca – Thank YOU so much – So much of what you said resonated with me. I had to ask myself, did I really talk about THAT? I don’t think I did, but what you described sounds painfully similar. BTW, Joe once gave me a gift that I realized later was just regifted. They are utterly clueless.

First of all, congrats on your years of sobriety. I have a close friend who’s also just hit 23 and that’s a MAJOR accomplishment! But as she told someone new to the program, alcoholism is just a symptom. I’ve learned so much from her and can see how both of you being in recovery would give you a special connection – or at least the illusion of one.

Many of those with NPD are garden variety abusers, so you don’t have visible scars from their abusive comments to show as proof. Joe and I once went to local market. He jumped out of line in front of me – I thought it was because he wanted to pay for what I was getting. But he didn’t. I asked, “What was that about?” He said he just felt like doing it. Yet, I’d rationalize these weird behaviors or ignore them.

Congrats also on avoiding his attempts to reel you back in. They just want to see if you’re still game and then abuse you again. As humans, we want to believe that people can change, but I’m afraid the N’s “emotions” and motivations are different than yours or mine. It’s all a game and they make the rules.

I hadn’t really thought about a follow-up even though it’s been three years since the D@D. I held out hope for a while thinking we’d reconnect or at least be civil to each other (as opposed to acting like the other person didn’t exist). T’was not to be. But thanks for planting this idea in my head. Nowadays, I tend to write more free-standing pieces related to narcissism, as it’s a disorder that everyone needs to know more about. Thanks again. Always, Jan

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35. Extreme Makeover Hits Close to Home « planetjan - August 21, 2010

[…] case you’re here because of the NPD link, you can read Jane’s story on the Close Encounter with a Narcissist – Part 3 Comment […]

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36. thea - December 6, 2010

My N was a platonic, same sex “best friend.” Everything you say about yout Joe could be said about my J (my N’s name also starts with a -J). They sound like twins separated at birth. I’m especially interested in what is behind their inability to converse in a normal way w/o tossing in inappropriate or non-contextual left-field comments. Any idea about this? I used to wonder at times if we were even having the same conversation.

Thea,
Thanks for providing my first laugh of the day, as it made me recall some of the left-field comments Joe threw out there that made my eyes cross. I believe some were for shock value, but mostly it’s because you’re NOT having the same conversation. It starts out the same, but remember they’re only hearing what they want to hear. And the second the conversation is no longer of interest to them, they tune out. The “Inappropriate Effect” is a common trait of Ns. I believe there’s more about that on Halycon, which is on my blog roll. (I’m off to school, so I don’t have time to double-check to see if that’s where I read about it.) These comments derail a meaningful conversation. You’re thinking, “Where on earth did that incoming verbal SCUD come from?” It’s just so utterly random. I actually wrote down a list of the inappropriate comments Joe made. Looking back on them now, they’re both bizarre and comical. Jan

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37. Tracy - January 17, 2011

NPD- don’t try to project normal responses or reactions. A true NPD does NOT feel as a normal human feels- though “acts” that they do- & they project this via their uncanny ability to observe & act “as they should”. NPD- they do not “feel” anything as you do. Their entire existence is a 5-7 yr. old who expects everyone to bend to them- all anger & impatience.

It will never change…

Tracy

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38. Natasha - January 17, 2011

I met a narcissist and went on two dates with him. I had no idea while getting to know him by phone that there was anything wrong. He was just so incredibly charming. However, on the second date, his behavior struck me as bizarre and frightening. I literally felt like an object, and I escaped. Since then, he has been on the chase. He calls and leaves “caring” messages for me wanting to see me again. I feel so desperately that I should call him and befriend him, at least, as he is clearly lonely, but I know it is not the right thing to do. Thank you for these posts. They solidify my position that I should maintain the strong boundaries I’ve drawn to protect myself from further pain.

Natasha – Although you can’t be certain he has NPD, there are serious red flags that should send you scurrying – away. As I wrote, those with NPD most love the chase, so the fact that you were able to see through him so early on, must have been a blow to his False Self. They then either run for the hills or ratchet up the charm another notch to try and convince you that they ARE a caring person. It’s quite a performance. You’re smart to have avoided being sucked back in. Strong boundaries alert us to incursions by those who would do us harm. Best of luck. Jan

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39. Becky - January 17, 2011

I spent four years off and on with my narcissist. Never realized fully that was what he was. Just knew he had no empathy, said some rather bizzare things and felt off balance most of the time. This man is an incredibly successful individual, partner in a law firm and I justified so much. Bad childhood, separation from his wife with a pending divorce. He wavered between being super attentive and loving to indifferent and cold. Played his estranged wife and I back and forth. I couldn’t take it anymore. I left in September of 2009. He continues to write love letters on birthdays, holidays, etc. and has even sent cashier’s checks for money claiming he made investments in both of our names and he has cashed them in. Sadly, I see that as his attempt to establish contact again…I don’t. Do they ever tire of pursuing their supply? It has been a year and a half. I am still reeling from the inconsistencies and insidious abuse, but getting healthier every day. I know someday it will be rarely a passing thought but it still is fresh even after this amount of time. I am sure it doesn’t help that he continues to write, etc. And, he even went back to live with his wife he was divorcing when we split up! Great lesson for me, never, ever date someone who is not divorced for at least a year. Fortunately, he lives in a city far enough away I don’t have to risk running into him. I just wondered if they ever give up?

Becky,
Some with NPD, especially if you’ve called them on their bad behavior or told them you know what they are, retreat with their tail between their legs never to be heard from again. That would be Joe. That said, once I mentioned a woman I’d worked with at a previous job. It turned out Joe had gone to school with her. He’d pursued her, but she made it clear she had zero interest in him. Yet he immediately suggested that “we” call her. Luckily, her last name is extremely difficult to spell and she couldn’t be found. But I believe his interest was rekindled precisely because she had been immune to his “charms” the first time around.

I’ve written about my interest in serial killers before. (How’s THAT for a segue!) After Ted Bundy was rejected by a college coed, he went to great pains to reinvent himself and become a “success.” He then looked her up again and once she expressed interest in him, he promptly dumped her. It was all a game to see if he could lure her back in to get even. It should be noted that almost all of his victims physically resembled her. I mention this because all psychopaths have strong narcissistic traits along with a lack of empathy.

He’ll most likely continue to contact you until he’s 100% sure you won’t go for the bait. That will take time. “Feeling off balance” is a great way to sum up a relationship with a N. For the record, many Ns can be incredibly successful in one area of their life, but their emotional life is always pretense. It’s truly is a day at a time. Best of luck and please check back. Jan

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40. dogkisses - February 6, 2011

Hi Jan,

This is an excellent series and I’m going to read it again. I need a refresher course in NPD. It’s easy to forget what the real problem was and feel that we (the victims) are not worthy of love after having a rel. with a severe narcissist.

I can’t believe I haven’t already read the entire series. I want to read all the comments too.

I love the way you wrote your story. I wrote mine accidentally, haphazardly and now I feel as though I am somehow not finished –I’m not quite sure what unfinished business I have, but I think I’m going to write more and see if it helps.

I do have one question for you. It is a bit out of context, but I’ll come back after reading more thoroughly your series, most likely to thank you gloriously, because you are an excellent writer and have given a wonderful gift to everyone who needs to learn, and keep learning, about NPD.

My question is about one statement you made:
“When you’re a teenager, or even in your twenties, this kind of daydreaming is normal. But not in your forties.–

–“Narcissists love to envision grand scenarios starring – themselves! What they lack is the follow-through to make them reality.”

Jan, I think we all begin to wonder about ourselves after being intimate with a narcissist. I think we question if we are one, do you agree? In that context, when I saw this statement I thought oh no! Don’t let that be me!

I’m in my forties, and I do dream of things I can do, but it’s because fibromyalgia and CFS kicked my unowhat. I had to stop college and working.

So, I do still dream that one day things could change. I dream about being able to do something like have a monthly newspaper column about disability and poverty, or stigma, which are the things I know about. Sometimes I dream that I could work p/t at the grocery store. I don’t think these are such grand dreams. Then, CFS usually hits and I think to myself, what was I thinking?! That I could do this, that or the other, when every time I turn around there is either a crisis with my son, another family member or I get really sick.

I guess a “grand-scenario” or I hope, is different than a reasonable hope that my illnesses will not forever keep me down and on the edge of society.

What do you think Jan?

Thank you so much for writing this the way you did. It is excellent and I’m glad I have ink now, ’cause I’m going to print it and read it.

Michelle (dogkisses)

Michelle,
After my close encounter, I DID wonder as to fend off some of the verbal abuse, I became more like Joe. It’s like it rubbed off on me, but ultimately I could see what was going on.

I hate to break it to you but having a monthly newspaper column IS magical thinking. But that’s only because the majority of newspapers are now filing for bankruptcy! 🙂 The fact that you blog about these issues is proof that your “dreams” are tethered to reality. When I talk about a “grand scenario,” it always stars the N and is a fantasy lacking any follow through. Now I like to fantasize that in an emergency, I would volunteer to take over the controls in the cockpit and land the jet on the runway. But I KNOW that’s a fantasy, because I can’t even reprogram the clock in my car for Daylight Savings Time! I’ve also dreamed of writing a children’s book. I still might. But if I do, it will be because it’s something I really want to do, not because doing so would put me in the spotlight.

As humans, we need “dreams” to envision a different future for ourselves and our society. There’s a reason Dr. King’s speech is called the “I Have a Dream” speech. Dreams CAN become reality. Your dreams are realistic, though subject to the whims of your illness. Your dreams are based on helping others and living a “normal” life (if there really is such a thing). It sounds corny, but I have dreams for each of my students. Sometimes that’s what gets me out of bed in the morning. (I also dream of how my paycheck might help pay off some bills.) We need dreams. But then we have to take action to make those dreams become reality. Sometimes dreams get deferred, but that doesn’t mean the dream has to die.

Fantasies, on the other hand, aren’t real. These are what the N indulges in. There is a poster in my classroom showing literary genres. To help children remember what a “Fantasy” is the words “phony” and “fake” are offered. Think how often those same words come to mind when you think of a N! Hope this was of some help. By all means, read the comments. I’ve gained so much insight from reading them. It’s always good to know you’re not alone. Jan

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41. dogkisses - February 7, 2011

Hi Jan,
Thank you for such a thoughtful reply! I feel better already :)–I’m serious actually. Some days are hard because of the memories, but as I write, I’m doing OK you know.

I agree about the newspaper business, of course, I was thinking more along the lines of a small stipend in a small hometown paper. I see what other people write in there and I think I could write that well if it was in an area that I know about. But you are right, that one is up there, high in the sky.

The N I knew was a savvy businessman with plenty of “successes,” under his belt, but he did brag a lot and I thought had an inflated and false sense about how “everyone thought he was so perfect.” They likely do since he has this entire personality created right, one that endears people and makes them sign contracts. I’m sure I’m not the only, “casualty of his pathology,” as he once told me I had been.

Off subject, I think you must be a great teacher. –“I have dreams for each of my students.”(Jan)

How awesome! Some teachers could care less. I wish I had known teachers when I was in school who had a dream for me. Keep your dreams and they aren’t corny. Teachers have the power to make a tremendous impact on a person’s life.

Thank you again for your writing and your fresh and open way of communicating. Thanks too for dropping by my little corner.

I hope you have a nice day!

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42. Rene - March 11, 2011

I love this article, and learned a great deal. All the puzzle pieces are fitting together now. It depicts the same events that I experienced with a narcissistic friend (co-worker) over the past few years. However, when I was going through it – I had no idea what was happening, didn’t have a label, etc. – because none of it makes sense from a logical human perspective. But it’s funny, because my narcissist friend’s experience as a child is right on the mark – with regard to his parents. I would say it’s almost a text book case.

Rene – I’m glad you found what I wrote helpful. My favorite part about blogging is receiving comments like yours. When I was going through this, I, too, had no idea what was happening. It was so odd and unlike anything I’d ever experienced. But somewhere along the line, I googled “narcissism.” Call it a gut feeling. Who knew? My friend was from a family that immigrated to the U.S. He spent his childhood in a boarding school with his brother while his three older sisters lived at home. I once told him I was surprised his mother hadn’t killed him. His reply was, “She didn’t have to – she sent me to boarding school instead.” He used this to curry sympathy and explain away his bad behavior to the unsuspecting. But after awhile, his boorish behavior could no longer be excused. He was a grown man who obviously relished saying things that made other people cringe. Ugh! Jan

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43. Jerry - July 28, 2011

Jan:

I, too, would like to add my thanks on your insightful articles. My case deals with a same-sex friend with whom I had a brief, close relationship. However, the signs were there from the beginning: the lack of empathy; the need for love and attention, etc. As a giving person I would do anything for this person and they gladly took all that I gave without reciprocation of any kind. A co-worker’s suggestion that my friend had NPD lead me to much research and, eventually your site. All I can say after reading the articles is that you must have been spying on me. 🙂 The narrative was eerily accurate.

The friend has moved some distance away and it would be all too easy to call it a day, especially that I now realize what I am dealing with. My issue is now that I feel a sense of obligation if you will. The person in question is headed down a path of their own making and a happy ending just doesn’t seem possible. I guess I fall into that ‘saint’ category. I don’t wish to abandon my friend but now realize that I can only do so much. Whatever the course, articles like yours will help me approach my relationship with this person from a standpoint of knowledge and strength (I hope).

Many thanks again and continued success with all that you are doing to help those who have encountered NPD in their lives.

Gatorguy

Jerry aka Gatorguy,
I’m afraid you’re going to be the one who has hit arm bitten off (or more likely your head) by your “friend.” I can’t tell you how many readers have told me that I must have been a fly on the wall because what I described so reminded them of their own experience. This is only because those with NPD are all reading from the same script. After I realized that “Joe” had NPD (but not before I fully comprehended it), I could predict with virtually 100 percent accuracy Joe’s reaction to whatever I would say or do.

I have a friend who became close friends with another woman she later realized had NPD. They were neighbors. They had children the same age. When this woman had breast cancer, my friend travelled to another state to visit her in the hospital, but she could never do right by this woman. My friend moved away (though in the same town) and put some distance between them. She did some serious thinking and realized this woman was never going to change. Each time she saw her, she came away feeling “less than.” You can’t save these people – but they can take you down with them. This woman still calls my friend from time to time. But my friend knows that she has no real interest in her. There is no saving these people from themselves.

Take note that no one can become a saint until they’re dead (though you might die trying)! Even Mother Teresa expressed doubts on her deathbed. Being a saint is one lonely thankless job. The only person you can change is yourself. No one can guarantee any of us a happy ending. Even if someone with NPD met the most wonderful person in the world, had the perfect job, and adoring children, they wouldn’t appreciate it and would slowly poison those who wanted to love them. That’s what they do best. Wishing you peace…and clarity. 🙂 Jan

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44. mojozza - January 25, 2012

My daughter is in a 6yr marriage, which fits this description. She has asked me to help. Have traveled from SW to east coast to be with her. They have No children, but 4 dogs. I’m currently Unemployed, single, my children are all adults, so im here for her.
He is a prison guard. She has a great job, and after about 8 months of waiting has a transfer in place. She will be going back with me. Any tips or warnings regarding this situation would be greatly appreciated.

Mojozza,
You didn’t mention whether your daughter had initiated divorce proceedings. FYI – Comment #27 is from my dear sister-in-law and Comment #28 is from a friend, so I know personally how some Ns react when the Big D word comes up. It’s lucky for your daughter that there are no children involved, though as a devoted dog person, I know that even who gets the dogs can be like a custody battle.

Personally, my experience is that once you expose a N for who s/he is, they make a quick exit. It’s like you never existed. Out of sight, out of mind. There are, however, those who will not gracefully exit the stage. They’d rather maintain a negative connection than have no contact at all. They play mind games and delight in making your life miserable over every detail of visitation (one example) just to exert what limited control they have.

Although A Shrink for Men (on my blogroll) is geared toward men in similar situation, there are a lot of articles about high-conflict divorces and what to expect. Just substitute “he” for “she.” Your daughter will have the advantage of having a job (so she’s not financially dependent on the N) and in having distance between them. She’ll also have you in her corner – I imagine after six years, she just needs to be able to talk without having someone else pass judgement. Please keep me posted. Always, Jan

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45. Meg - February 23, 2012

I know these blog entries were written several years ago, but they have helped me in some way.

The last convo I had with this narcissistic guy was him saying, “Its my prerogative for you not to understand. Do you know what prerogative means?” I responded with “yes” Then his response was “You are smart and perceptive!” It wasn’t until I walked away that I realized what he had done. He literally just mirrored himself and truly showed his true identity….a narcissist. Another thing he did that continually hurt was him saying “I don’t remember”…even if it was a day later because he interpreted that little bit of time as a long time ago. It was quite hurtful for him to say that along with “you take things personal” and “I think its important to always say what you think” while I was in such emotional pain. There are men who are assholes but a narcissist far exceeds that of an asshole. He shows his pain via Facebook (so others can see of course) with things like “time to pack my bags”…although most people thought he was going on a trip…everything he says is very “cryptic”. After one of our “nothing” fights he wrote on his fb to a girl (on his own page) “Do you hate me too?” But to a lot of people he seems “genuine” because he will say things like “I try not to manipulate anyone” or something along those lines also “I guess I shouldn’t use the term friend so loosely”. One thing I noticed is that he rarely used “I” when he spoke, which I thought was odd. Right off the bat he wanted to know personal details about my sex life/past relationships. He liked the innocent girls of course and he liked to up the sex talk…oddly enough he was a man with a low low low sex drive. Another thing he did was constantly talk about “love”…in fact one of his past loves wrote “If you are lucky you will meet someone who will make you feel small and unimportant and you will realize love is not based on worship , but its based on simplicity and reciprocity. I am totally over it” Another thing he told me was that he was a “polarizing person” you either hated or loved him. He would make remarks like “I love people who are worth it” and “Ignoring a person shows them how important they are” And the lies…the ones that werent lies because he never truly lies…he just keeps things “vague” so you misunderstand.

I could go on and on…its amazing how this man could have so many loyal friends….he was emotionally and psychologically abusive.

Meg,
I’m off to meet parents before school starts, but I could go on and on about how the comments you cited sound SO much like Joe. I shall write more later. Jan

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46. Meg - February 26, 2012

I wanted to add a little more…

The hard part in dealing with him is trying to make the distinction between the intent or accidental. Communication is a 2-way street so I cant help to think that I wasn’t properly communicating (especially since of my “Aspie” qualities). In many cases and people I know those two types of people are often seen by the outside world as being the same even though if you really look at them closely they are in fact in most cases on the opposite end of the spectrum. The exception is that when someone like me is confronted I try to understand where they are coming from. This guy undermined me in very small ways …”who gets together on Sundays anyways?” which does not seem like much, but a quote i read from another website “If I could add up all your cuts they would lead to death.” Even some of the small things like when he sent me a website link…I asked where…he told me but he was quick to add “dipshit” to the end. When I think about it I do feel stupid because it should have been obvious…Another thing would be he would say things like “I didn’t say that” but never would expand on what he actually meant. The girlfriend he had after me ended it with him after 6 months…the guy accidentally dialed her phone (because it was in his pocket) but told her he did not remember placing a phone call…of course he told me the story (I ran into him accidentally). As you can see he does not “lie” but in a way he does. He also tells me that she got super angry so I can see why the outside world believes that he “just has bad luck” because I am thinking to myself “why would someone get mad over such a minor accident” but then I realized what had happened. I believe this is a form of “gaslighting.” Originally with his “memory issues” I kind of let it go because people cant help that they cannot remember something. I find the whole experience traumatic because I am the cold, indifferent, eccentric, “abuser” while he is the warm, charming, abused individual. I know for a fact I always tried to understand, but I cant say I was not abusive.

Meg,
It’s been a crazy weekend, so here I finally am to “write more.” What you’re describing IS gaslighting. Just like you say, individually, some comments/behaviors might seem petty. I thought maybe I was the one misinterpreting them. But I lived in NYC for years, so I’ve been there done that. Eventually, I wrote down all of the odd things Joe said. When I looked at them all on one page, everything came into focus. It wasn’t ME. It was HIM. What horrible things to say someone (with a smile on your face). “I bet you got knocked up. Yeah, you seem like the kind of woman who’d got knocked up.” And yes there was a lot of talk about sex, but Joe wasn’t interested in sex (at least, not in any normal way). He was interested in seeing what he could say to shock me.

And instead of telling him where to shove it, I explained that both of my sons were planned. Joe just smiled. He enjoyed putting me on the defensive. You can’t reason with a crazy person, yet I was trying. It was all a bit surreal. You sound like a very caring person. Know that it was NOT you. I suggest that you DO write down things he said to you in a dispassionate manner. I’d forgotten many of the downright creepy things Joe said to me, but recently I came across the list. That could be a post in itself as it’s SO revealing as to how these little barbs cut deep. And it’s hard for people to understand that you’ve been abused when the bruises you have are inside. Thanks so much for commenting. Jan

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47. jackie - April 10, 2012

I have been in an on again off again relationship with a NPD person for the last 2.5 years. I have endured an early childhood of physical and psychological abuse and was lucky enough to be placed in a childrens orphanage at the age of 6 which put an end to all the previous years of abuse.
None of what I had endured early on in my life or years of therapy to be able to mother 5 beautiful daughters had prepared me for the quiete abuse of a narcissist.
So utterly soul destroying but with a spiritual outlook and turning to meditation and handing over the reigns to the universe I have been able to fully understand it and let go of the destruction he was causing me.
At times I thought I was going crazy and always found myself dismissing my GUT instincts, word to the wise never ever dismiss what your gut is trying to tell you !
I also understand at a deeper level that I was an enabler and I own that about myself, it is that has set me free the most.
To anyone out there going thru this be strong and take baby steps set yourself small attainable goals which will prep you for the closure and chance for freedom
Thanks for a wonderful forum for us all to share – love light and strength x

Jackie,
When I first met with a therapist, he said that most people who’d put up with a narcissist for any length of time had one in their family of origin. They’d been so conditioned by abuse (or neglect) that they took it as the norm. This was a revelation since neither of my parents was a N. Looking back, however, I believe my first “true love” was.

I’ve been in the the process of writing a post about gut instincts. You are so right. Looking back, my gut feelings were incredibly accurate. But my intellect over-road these – the same instincts that were developed to protect our species very survival. Thanks for lighting a fire beneath me to finish the post. :)Jan

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48. Lilah - April 17, 2012

I’m glad I came here. It’s been a real eye opener for me, since a lot of this sounds like my ex-boyfriend. I don’t know if he’s a full-blown narcissist or if he just has some narcissistic traits, but I will say that he really burned me. It’s been nearly a year since he discarded me without so much as a goodbye. Most days, I think I’m over him, but I still think about WAY too often.

Lilah,
Ultimately, whether he has NPD or just has strong narcissistic traits, it’s a no win situation either way. Most people I know say it took them 2 years to move on and even then, it was a day at a time. It’s very hard to realize you’ve been “had,” but you’re not alone. It DOES get better. One day you’ll realize that you’ve gone the whole day and not thought of him once. 🙂
Jan

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49. HoBo - May 17, 2012

All I can say is, “amazing”!,after reading this article. I know truthfully that you have been in the scorpions den, because fact is larger than fiction. My gratitude goes out for your willingness to share your experience with others so they can see and heal.The deception though devastating, can be reversed through your testimony and others involvement on this site. I don’t know if there is enough hard drive space for my experiences,”May God Bless”.

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HoBo - May 21, 2012

Sorry Jan,couldn’t sleep. “Life with a true Narcissist”, scratch THAT, “Agony with an empty soul”. Note:This may only make sense to those that have been stung by the scorpion,so like the song goes,Lord please don’t let me be misunderstood.Make no mistake about it, the uneasy feelings that you are experiencing and or have experienced are real and not imagined.”To thy known self be true”, also applies to your inner voice telling you to pay attention,do to the events and unsettled spirit that has awakened inside. The ultimate con is just beginning to fester into a freight train headed for hell,(you have just been given,unknowingly, a free ticket to ride),”ALL ABOARD”! Your ever smiling ticket “master” will not let you off at your convenience.The only way for you to get a departure,is jump,at high speed.Remember,look before you leap,insure the area your traveling in has a more suitable and safer landing for exit (like say sand rather than gravel). Do not be a dog and return to it’s vomit (the scorpion strikes viciously when its victim is yielding). Like a bottomless pit, dark and hollow, where you clench your fists in utter frustration till your body is drench with agony. When you see the light,make that absence of light at the end of the tunnel,”Geronimo”!, Will….Be….Your Battle Cry. May God Bless.

P.S. I have no on staff editor. P.S.S.,Husband filmmaker + your insight = Life changing ,full length footage (can you say Life Fest Film Festival)?

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50. Suzi - June 15, 2012

Jan,

I came across your blog while doing some pretty extensive research into “what the F is wrong with me and/or him” after having an actual encounter with someone who I have now diagnosed as NPD. I am a lawyer…by nature I am a logical thinker. This man dismissed me after telling me he loved me and, no matter my apologies or attempts to shoulder blame (which I didn’t really think I owed or deserved), he shut me down. Just. Like. That. Bewildering. The logical thinker in me needed answers.

From what little information I got, this man grew up as an only child in a home with a “controlling” mother. His father was apparently abusive towards his mother, but left when he was two. I went to high school with him, and knew “of” him, but was not friends with him. I, and others, remember him from back then mostly because he dressed like Carlton from The Fresh Prince of Beverly Hills and carried a briefcase. He also gave a lot of black history speeches. That’s all I knew of him. Thought he was pretentious back then.

Forward 22 years. I come across this guy on Facebook. We flirt, a little bit, for a couple of years. Eventually we meet in person. The physical attraction, for me, was immediate. He seemed the same way. We began a physical relationship right away. The whole relationship was INTENSE right from the beginning. We live in different cities, about 45 minutes apart. After spending the first night with him, however, he could not get enough. He was going out of his way to come to see me. He texted me ALL THE TIME. He called. We spent every single weekend together. Of course, I liked it. He was VERY into sex. He would practically keep me in bed all weekend, and seem to get a little annoyed when I had other things to do. He always left me with bruises….alll over my arms, my breasts, my butt….I hated that. He said he couldn’t help it. He would tell me how much he loved my body…parts.

I had red flags from the beginning. My first sign, I think, was that he would on occasion almost parrot something that I knew that I had said before. Like….he was mimicking a feeling or emotion that I had had. Seriously, I would think to myself….”I just said that yesterday.” A few weeks after our whirlwind sexual/have to be with you all the time “thing,” he informed me that a big project had come in at work and that he would be pretty busy. Well, that’s when he started ignoring me. The texts stopped. The calls stopped. And when I would say something to him about it, he would get defensive. He still came over every weekend, and everything was “fine.” I was crazy. He loved me. He wanted to marry me. He wanted to “put his baby in me.” (I am almost 40. I have two kids. I’m done. But, he repeatedly told me how he “wanted to put his baby in me.”). He wanted me to rent out my house. Buy a house with him. Get MARRIED. I was with him for a couple of weeks?!?! He had never been with anyone like me before. Ever. Sexually or otherwise. There was no category for me.

As an aside, an acquaintance of mine from high school dated him. A mutual friend warned me when I told her that I was dating him to “be careful.” Without more. I said something to him about it (about a week into the relationship), and he quickly responded to me, called me, told me he wanted to explain…..he “treated her badly.” And he felt “bad” about it. No more than that.

Each week that I was with him, while he was in his city and I in mine, we would argue about something. First, he accused me of using an inappropriate epithet (he is black, I am white). Untrue. Although I did briefly question myself. The next week, he had an issue with my jealous ex, and another guy who he perceived “liked” me. No matter what I told him, or what explanations I gave, he refused to drop it. I felt like he was trying to find out what was wrong with me. The next week, he announced that he was going to have strippers come to clean his apartment. He didn’t understand why that irritated me.

When he would spend the weekend at my house, he would sleep. A lot. He said he needed his uninterrupted sleep. He would be irritable if he didn’t get it. He would keep me up half the night having sex, even though I protested….and be annoyed that I would have other things to do. He needed his sleep. Period. He claimed himself to by a typical Type A personality…he ALWAYS had “work to do,” but when he would get on his computer, I never saw any work happening.

About 8 weeks in, it all came to a head. I felt almost like there was something that snapped in his head. We had enjoyed a great weekend together (although I dragged him into socializing with high school friends at a bar after they sent a drink over to us, that irritated him). The following morning, he jumped out of bed, very uncharacteristically, and said he had “an idea in [his] head.” Weird. He left later that day, told me he loved me.

The following day, he sent me a text message while I was at work. This was also uncharacteristic as his love only came on the weekends at this point. He informed me that he was invited to a wedding, as a date, and he felt ambivalent about wanting to say no. I, of course, responed as expected…uhhh…you have a girlfriend, just say no. I questioned, however, why he had the conflicting feeelings about saying no. Several hours later, many messages later, after he twisted everything around…..from all he was doing was “sharing” that he was invited to a wedding, to all he was doing was asking my permission to go to a wedding on a platonic date with an ex-girlfriend (why shouldn’t he, I go to happy hour with male friends), to him telling me that he really wanted to go to the wedding…..I got “dismissed.” I could not argue with him. I could not win.

I sent him an email, seeking closure. I accepted responsibility for my part in any miscommunication. I asked how he could tell me he loved me, and then dismiss me so callously. He responded…..you, you, you, you, you…..no acknowledgment of any behavior on his part. No apology. Just blame. He was done with me. Discarded.

I haven’t heard from him since. I guess he’s moved on to his next victim. I have never been through ANYTHING like this with anyone. EVER. Mystifying. It was 9 weeks.

~S

Suzi,
So sorry you had to go through this. It all sounds extremely intense and confusing. I’m currently staying at my college roommate’s house in the Midwest. She also had a close encounter with a narcissist, so it’s a subject we’re both all too familiar with.

I haven’t read through everyone’s comments for awhile, but I learn so much from the people who stop to comment. I remember a woman who had a guy “sweep her off her feet” and propose, only to vanish the next day. N’s are emotional con men and have no compunction when it comes to folding up their tent and moving on in the middle of the night without so much as a backwards glance. It defies logic, so that’s the sticking point. If you’re a normal (okay, semi-normal) person, you replay everything that happened and try to make logical sense of it. But, it gets so confusing and illogical because what they say one day was never said the next day. “Is it me?” I believe they often believe their own BS and at least justify it out of their eternal fear of actually connecting with another human on an emotional level. Consider yourself lucky that he’s out of your life and you didn’t stick around for the sequel (which always ends badly).

You didn’t mention what he’d been doing all those years that you were out of contact. Some people look to be happily married, but have numerous women on the side. Others are forever on the prowl. One of the reddest flags that now appears on Match.com and other dating sights, is to beware of the man who “sweeps you off your feet.” And again, it’s all about the chase. Once they’ve “conquered” you that head off to plant their flag on distant mountains. I SO understand your confusions and disbelief about what happened. Been there and done that – still waiting for the t-shirt to prove it. 🙂 Always, Jan

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51. Lesley - June 18, 2012

Suzi, I’m up early here in the UK and just had to say that I get all that you are saying,,,completely and utterly.
I am recovering after an eighteen month ordeal with an intense somatic narcissist and in the end he disappeared like snow on a sunny day too. I got no explanation apart from my own logic. I was onto him and it was becoming hard work for him to keep up the mask…
There was literally nothing he wouldn’t promise me,we went looking for houses at his urging,’nothing’ compared to me,we were going to look after each other in old age… he was about to propose….this until I confronted him about his internet harem and recurring ex girlfriends.A week later I was toast.
For what it’s worth, feel your disbelief,get angry. I just think it’s so important to stay in touch with your own feelings, like getting an intravenous drip back to ‘self’.
Jan’s site is a wee oasis that made sense for me when I was still reeling.Stay in touch and I’m so sorry that you had to go through what you describe.Thinking of you. L

Lesley,
Thanks so much for offering hope to someone else who is hurting. Always, Jan

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52. Suzi - June 18, 2012

I appreciate your input Lesley and Jan. Jan, he is 41….never been married. Not sure if he has ever been in a long-term relationship. He mentioned a lot of ex’s. Enough so that I commented once that everyone was his ex. Although it seems very few people familiar with him know this, he has a 2.5 year-old daughter with one of his ex’s. I know very little about that situation either, other than he tried to “control” the ex during her pregnancy. I guess she wasn’t interested in it. I would love to know….but I suppose that’s more info I will never get.

Suzi,
FYI, Joe was 40 and never married. I once asked him about long-term relationships he’d had. He looked absolutely at a loss. There were no old friends who knew him back when and when he switched jobs, his “friends” aka coworkers ceased to exist. He, too, talked about his mother in a dismissive way. He’s now 45 and still on the prowl for someone to be his shiny new toy for just as long as it takes for that new car smell to wear off. At one point, I thought having more information about his situation would provide me with greater insight. I now realize that’s not the case – it only gets in the way of moving forward with your life. Living well IS the best revenge (in case Karma is a long time coming.) 🙂 Always, Jan

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53. Lesley - June 19, 2012

Hey Suzi,
Here are a couple of links to ‘Baggage Reclaim’ you may find helpful.

http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/future-faking-is-like-the-emperors-new-clothes/

http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/the-truth-about-intentions-do-you-really-need-to-work-out-whether-they-intended-to-hurt/

You may know the site,it touches on Narc behaviour a bit but mostly covers all the reasons we end up with unavailable people,how they roll and manipulate and what we can do about it.
For ourselves and our own recovery because…they may be irredeemable.
Jan is dead on track with the living well. Don’t chase ‘the closure’ explanation, we never get it. I personally think this is why they do it quickly, they know that their reasons are crap, that they are faltering to give explanation…so they abdicate the situation swiftly.
They hate to be uncomfortable or wrong…it’s not like a ‘normal’ who would feel pain or empathy. They are always looking to make a situation work for them.
Regarding control,yes, my eighteenth month Narc was also very controlling and possessive…at first endearing, then stifling. Complete different standard for his own behaviour…and he was blinkered about this.They really see the world in a different way to us. Light Shine,
Les

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54. Phil - July 14, 2012

Narcissists, only someone who’s being close to one understands the effect they have on you! But to fully comprehend and rationalise the experience, it takes a great deal of insight and healing!

I write this from the perspective of an emotionally mature adult with the ability to empathise. What takes you off balance about a narcissist, is their inability to empathise.

It is the Narcissist’s inability to empathise which often invokes the anger of people who can empathise.

But here’s some irony for you to think about. Assuming you can empathise with another human being that is? The narcissist demonstrates their inability to empathise, because they are selfish. You in turn become very angry as a result.

Do you know what anger is?. Anger itself is a temporary suspension of empathy in people who can empathise! ))))) It’s quite funny to think about really. The Narcissist is incapable of Empathy, the Narcissist invariably induces anger in a victim, who in turn loses their ability to empathise (it’s a temporary loss in you though, only until your anger subsides) .

Don’t forget the most important point though. A narcissist can NEVER empathise. (Sometimes you can mistakenly think a narcissist can empathise because they can often seem to sympathise for others) The difference is that they are often considering their own feelings and NOT those of other people. Imagine somebody gets hit by car, if a narcissist is sympatheic to the victim it’s because their narrative reads ‘Oh my God, that could easilly have been me getting hurt instead of that object who I don’t care about and can’t feel for’ …………….
A narcissist can feel and have a sense of their own hurt, but they can’t put themselfves ‘in the shoes’ of another to feel it as they would.
It’s NOT empathy for the victim, the only feeling a narcissist has is their own feelings for themselves. Understand the difference!
To a narcissist, other people are just the same as any other inanimate objects in the world (props) which don’t have ‘feelings’ to be considered by the narcissist.

The thing about narcissists is that people who can empathise, get very upset and angry, become emotionally hurt by them. They use people, they are selfish, they invoke fury and wrath in people. We’ve all felt these things having being ‘close’ to a narcissist. I think it’s a wonder that they have stayed alive as long as they have, most of them purely because it’s illegal to kill them.))))

But let me stop myself!!!! What do I sound like like now, I’m venting my anger?? I’m venting anger and I in turn have lost my ability to empathise. I’m as bad as any narcissist when I’m amgry. 😉

Here’s my epthany which I want to share with you, I hope it helps some of you rationalise your experiences and come to terms with your hurt.

Emotionally narcissists are NOT adults. THEY ARE CHILDREN. Physically and intellectually they are adults, emotionally they are children. Narcissists were often emotionally traumatised in childhood, becomming a narcissist was the best and sometimes only defence mechanism they could take, to avoid any future pain and trauma on a scale of the life defining trauma which then shaped (and stunted) their future development. But their emotional development STOPPED at this stage and they can’t continue to grow emotionally. Let me repeat that sentence. The emotional development of a narcissist STOPPED in childhood (often at the age of a trauma) and they CAN’T continue to mature emotionally.
I’m repeating myself for my own benefit and for yours too, because you might forget this point and think otherwise!!

Now here’s my empithany. It’s me going back to being the empathising person I know I am and like to be, as well as my forgiveness of the narcissist!! )) As soon as you start to hate, the narcissist has won. But that’s not the way to think about it either. The narcissist isn’t trying to ‘beat’ you. They don’t have a concept of other people as feeling human beings. On the stage drama that is a narcissists life, everything is a prop. Everything is in place to embellish the ego of a narcissist and win them the attention they so much crave. Using and throwing away a person is no more vindictive than doing the same thing to any other peice of stage equipment. You (or it) was only ever there to help the show along, for the narcissist gain attention (which is their drug). To borrow someone elses quote ‘all props are interchangeable’

Back to my epithany. I have a 9 yr old daughter (who will hopefully one day mature. But for argument’s sake let’s say that she will always be 9yrs old emotionally, The nature of our relationship will always be that of a mature parent and an emotionally immature / dependant child.

If I take her for an ice cream, she’ll probably say ‘thank you daddy’ as an afterthough. Because that’s what people do and that’s what you are supposed to say. Sometimes ‘daddy’ might even have to prod a ‘thankyou’ out of her for politeness sake. It’s not that she’s spoilt and ungrateful by nature, but she’s my daughter and therefore she know’s she’s probably entitled to my love and attention and generousity. Did you get that word “ENTITLED’?
Like any little girl, she’s also entitled to my attention, I should show an interest in her friends/ activities and any other pursuit she might follow when she’s not interested in,my attention.
If she has candy, she know’s it’s polite to offer to share. But she also knows I’m not probably going to take it from her. Likewise, she knows that she doesn’t have to spend her pocket money on her dad. If it’s father’s day or a birthday she might need reminding by her mum, because that’s what people do.
If I were to trouble her with my concerns about paying the mortgage and she doesn’t understand or seem interested. Is it because she thoughtless or selfish?
OF COURSE NOT BECAUSE SHE”S A 9 YR OLD GIRL THE SAME AS ANY OTHER 9 YR OLD GIRL.

Now imagine somebody with the emotional maturity of a 9 yr old girl as a 39 yr old woman in an adult relationship.
Here my friends, is a narcissist!!!!!

Phil,
You’re right on all counts. I teach 8-9 year olds and I can say with all honesty that they’re way more empathetic than any of the narcissists I’ve encountered. On Halcyon, there’s an article, “Now We Are Six,” which details the traits of a six-year-old. And of course, what’s cute or “normal” for a six-year-old is just odd and inappropriate in an adult. I think what perplexes most people is that disconnect between the adult body and the immature self-centered mindset of a narcissist. Thanks for articulating this so well. 🙂 Jan

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Phil - July 14, 2012

Jan, thank you for your kind words.
So much information surrounding the topic of Narcissism is counter intuitive, it is increasingly difficult to correctly label a ‘true’ narcissist personality against the ‘background noise’ of society and culture as it is today. What I’m saying of course, is that Western society and culture has itself become more narcissistic than it was years ago. Therefore, because the ‘baseline’ has moved up (i,e, society/culture is by nature now more narcissistic than it used to be) …….. are you sure you’re looking at a ‘real’ narcissist or just somebody who has a few narcissistic traits which are nothing out of the ordinary in todays world?)) Of course to a degree, everybody has some narcissitic tendencies.

Hence, it took me a very long time to realise I’d been in a relationship with a narcissist, as opposed to somebody with a few narcissistic traits wrongly labeled as a narcissist.

There are plenty of signs and red flags, it’s how to interpret them properly against the backdrop of culture and society, without wrongly leaping to a conclusion of a narcissistic personality. Unfortunately, they blend in much better than they used to and avoid detection, it easier for them to confuse people than ever before.

These are the counter intuitive traits:

The narcissist doesn’t usually ‘suffer’, their victims do.
It’s not a mental illness (as in a transient state of ill health), it is who they are.
Who they are isn’t who they are, because their self is a false one.
It is folly to search for the ‘real ‘ self of a narcissist, is an emotionally crippled and wounded child, frozen and inaccessable to themselves or to others. The real self died in childhood, the narcissist continued life alienated from the dead child.
A narcissist will probably have no concept of anything being amiss about themselves, except that for no reason, people suddenly become dissolutioned and aliented from them, eventually abandoning them!! All inexplainable stuff!!!

A funny anecdote for you. My narcissitic ex studied for a degree in Pychology. Of course, the reason for this was to discover the ‘mental illness’ that exists in sometimes seemingly normal people, that causes them to become angry, dissolutioned, alienated and abandon thier relationships with her. Without further consideration, everyone else on the planet is mentally ill, she is perfectly ‘normal’ ))))))))
The other irony, is that people in relationships with narcissists may or probably have problems of their own. So it all adds to the drama and confusion!!))

Narcissists are always part of a group and they ‘need’ people. Therefore you could (wrongly) conclude that they are sociable and people orientated. My narcissist ex makes me look quite the recluse in comparrison. LOOK AGAIN!! A narcissist isn’t amoungst groups of people because they love people and company, they need (not love) people for narcissistic supply (i,e, attention)

A very telling way to discover a narcissist is in their sexual preferences. I personally know I can can form trusting emotional ties with another human being which are exclusive to my significant other. A narcissist will mock at the closeness and exclusivity of such a relationship, and possibly try to label it as ‘unhealthy’ and ‘needy’ in order to undermine it and devalue it. (As I said, everyone else has the mental illness, not the narcissist) 😀
Ok, so now we’ve established my own mental illness. I have a natural tendancy to form exclusive, emotional bonds with a significant other, All this is ‘evidence’ of the ‘neediness’ of an emotional cripple and social misfit. (Me)
A narcissist will contemplate, if not gravitate towards ‘group sex’ and orgies. Of course, the emotionally crippled monogamous types ‘latch on’ to a single person in an unhealthy way (as goes the narrative of the narcissist).
And perhaps the willingness to indulge in group sex is evidence of a narcissist’s emotional maturity in being able to connect with so many other people? i.e an orgy??

The counter intuitive thing is that, the narcissist is unable to emotionally connect with anyone. If you can’t connect with one person in an emotional way ………….. what difference does it make whether or not sex involves one other person or 20?????)))))) The only person of significance to the narcissist is the narcissist him or herself!!!!!!

Phil,
The word “Narcissist” is suddenly everywhere, yet as you say, we all have some narcissistic traits, but that doesn’t mean we have NPD. And yes, our Western culture puts a premium on individuality and competition, so some narcissistic behaviors are tolerated or even celebrated! From my own experience, because a N saves their worst behavior for those “close” to them, many people on the outside, or whom only have a passing acquaintance with the N, have a hard time believing what you tell them about your own experience. You begin to feel like they’re listening to you and wondering if YOU might be the one with the problem. You’re obviously well versed in all of this craziness, so I’m wondering when the lightbulb clicked for you.
I have referred numerous men to Shrink4Men where they finally realized what they were dealing with (often the women were Borderline). It was such a relief to know there was a name for the behavior they’d endured – usually alone because they were too embarrassed to confide in a friend or family. Jan

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55. Phil - July 15, 2012

Hi Jan,

I love to play a game with people. (You might like to try this with your children) I ask them to define a ‘table’ for me. Perhaps aliens are visiting earth and they need a working definition of a table. And so everyone starts with the same description along the lines of “a peice of furniture with 4 legs and a flat surface upon which you can place items” …or something along those lines. Then of course I play the pedant and point out that some tables have 3 legs. They quickly modify their description to “a peice of furniture with 3 or 4 legs and a flat surface upon which you can place items” Then I point to a chair and ask them if a chair is a table? Afterall, a chair fits their description of a table! )) Sometimes I get really silly, pointing out that a horse has 4 legs, you can place a saddle and riider on a horse, is a horse a table therefore? As they start to change their description, I’ll point to a table that doesn’t have legs at all (one with a round base for example) which is a ‘table’ and is agreed to be one by all. And so it continues. However much you perfect the working definition and description of a table. There is always a table which doesn’t fit the description of a table which is one. Conversely, there is always some object which isn’t a table which fits the description of one!
Look up ‘table’ in the dictionary, you’ll find an approximation of man’s best effort to accuraretly define it))
But my point is this of course. Almost every human on the planet can point to a table and correctly identify it as a table, in full agreement with mankind. Not one of us can successfully define a ‘table’ without flaws in our description of one.

So on one level, I’ve always intuitively known about the Narcissistic personality without being able to correctly define it. The lightbulb moment was finding a definition i.e. ‘Narcissism’ which most accurately defines it, but not in a perfect way.

The other insight I have is noticing the ‘need’ in people (especially Narcissists) to label people and define the the ‘person’ as being a particular mental illness or personality disorder.
I personally like to think of everyone as human and whole in some unique or idiosyncratic way.
Therefore, in needing a ‘label’ for somebody are you revealing a desire to denigrate that person and reduce their very being to a psychological condition?
Remember what I said about my Narcissist ex studying Psychology. From the moral high ground of that nebulous concept of ‘normal’, she can point to individuals and label them as ‘schizoid, paranoid, addictive, obsessive ……… but not as human beings whole in some unique way.

So perhaps even in my finding of the description Narcissist, perhaps I was revealing my own desire to ‘hit back’ at the very obnoxious condition which is narcissism. But, I don’t want to descent to the level of narcissist. They thrive on eviscerating people. I want to see human beings (and myself) as whole, complete and unique.

Phil,
I would love to play this game with my students as I have a rather clever bunch and have to keep those little brains humming. I haven’t known a N (and I now know at least half a dozen) who was into labeling people. My husband always likes to say that people who become therapists usually have their own issues to work out and that’s why they’re attracted to the profession. But he also has some choice words about lawyers, accountants, and doctors as well! My sister-in-law has a Montessori school and last night she took me through all of the different areas with different skills for children to practice and master. There’s a lot of activities that involving sorting and classifying. I think it’s a very human trait to mentally sort, but it can go awry when we sort people based on factors such as their sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. for it can then become a convenient label. Your comments have set me to thinking (even while on vacation). I also don’t think that anger is always the lack/or suspension of empathy. There’re times when anger, e.g. a reaction to a racist or (fill in the blank) comment or action, actually shows our humanity. Just a thought. Jan

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56. Phil - July 15, 2012

Jan,

To elaborate on what I meant by anger being a suspension of empathy. Think of it as anger in the apex of rage directed back towards the person causing it,.Using your example. You normally have empathy for someone. That someone makes a rascist comment which makes you angry. You become angry at their comment and lose empathy for the person making it. Having lost empathy, you make angry insulting remarks back about them being bigotted and uneducated))
When you had empathy for the person, you wouldn’t have insulted them. The rascist comment was just the means by which you were made angry, anger itself triggers the suspension of empathy for the person causing it.

I think the label of mental-illnesses and personality traits are still stigmatised, even though people are encouraged to be more tolerant these days.
The narcissist personality is (in my opinion) probably the worst to be practising as a therapist, The false self in a narcissist is invoilable. It is others who have problems and not them. I think a therapist with personal issues (even major ones) who is fully ‘self aware’ will make a good counsellor. The very nature of narcissism will prevent a therapist from ever becoming fully self aware in a meaningful or candid way. A narcissist is probably a very dangerous therapist))
A narcissist can see everyone’s faults apart from their own. So a narcissist would probably gain a huge sense of their own grandiosity in first diagnosing and then counselling a person less perfect than they are. A wet dream for a narcissist I should say!!!)))

I agree with your husband. When I was at college there was a psychology course. The ‘joke’ amoungst lecturers was that most students only enroled in class to discover ‘what was wrong them’ ….and after one semester, half a class would invariably drop out feeling dissolutioned and dissapointed))

Phil

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57. Phil - July 16, 2012

Jan P.S, (Read above post also)

After our much earlier discussion about the emotional maturity of Narcissists, I read Halcyon’s, article, “Now We Are Six,” which details the traits of a six-year-old and compares them to Narcissists.
He says that to get a Six year old to admit to something, you ask them ‘how’ they did something, not ‘if’ they did something.
And apparently, the same ‘mind trick’ works on Narcissists also))

So I did some thinking and I’ve designed a ‘Jedi mind trick’ which I’m dying to test on a Narcissis abd see if it works?t!! 😀
The theory and my thinking is this………..

If you ask a six year old ; ‘Have you been in the cookie jar?’
They will probably shake their head and reply ‘No daddy!’
Ask a six year old ‘How did you get in the cookie jar?’
They’ll point to the kitchen chair and give you a demonstration of how they managed to climb up and reach the cookie jar!! 😀 😀

How about something like this then.
Ask a Narcissist ‘Have you been stalking me?’ and they’ll deny it !!
Ask a Narcissist ‘How did you know I was in New York?’ and they might tell you which friend of a friend it was who told them , having happened to mention you in passing and ask for your wherabouts)))

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58. lesley - July 16, 2012

Hey Phil and Jan,
Loving this discussion and Phil so sorry you are dealing with these feelings.I’ve been there and to a certain extent am still working some of the more confusing aspects through too.
I totally concur with some of your opinions and with others…well, I see things differently.
In my experience Narcs don’t label.They simply don’t have the time or the interest in their ‘props’.They may affect an interest if it profits them or to compete with a therapist (in who knows the most!) but for me,they only care about underlying motives,personality structures, prognosis etc when it suits them.
In terms of anger being a suspension of empathy,yes… I get that at times but anger can also be productive and air clearing and…normal.
I think that a Narc’s lack of empathy is a defensive tool and almost always provoked by fear of mask slippage. For me it’s root is fear and not anger.They are manning the barricades.The rage is a by product and may manifest in many ways. Many narcs are passive aggressive whilst assuming caring attitudes. They can hit at you in oblique as well as direct ways.This can be put downs,ignoring,sly comments which wait for your reaction or trying to make you jealous..they may seem perfectly calm and in control whilst they strike? They’ve been at it for years…..
I agree entirely about the arrested development often at the source of trauma which propelled them into their personality disorder in the first place.
I also found myself smiling in agreement at your comments about how they will find the reasons why they become alienated from people inexplicable?? My ex would say ‘he always seemed to disappoint women,ran about all day after them and always disappointed…’the fact that he was serially unfaithful to every woman he had ever known seemed to whizz past his eyes!!!
I wanted to add that in reading through the forums… I find that those who need to ‘label’ the most are those people who still think they can cure a Narc or that they will know how to treat him/her if he does come back. They search for meaning,for alternative personality disorders in the hope that they are the one person in the universe who will triumph over Narcissism.This is for me an ‘Inverted Ego’ disorder in itself. Narcs are incurable as you both rightly say and anyone who indulges in magical thinking or what vankin labels
‘ malignant optimism’ actually needs to look inwards for a while.
Phil, I feel I need to say here that I have a Masters in Psychology and some further post grad stuff as well! I am a work in progress but getting there…(lol) Please don’t throw cold water on all us Psych majors(Jan,see how I use an American term here,you’ve got me!!!)
Anyways,signing off,thanks for making me think again…hope you having a wonderful time away Jan with lots of storytelling,song and chilled beers and thinking of you Phil,
Light Shine Folks,
Lesley

Lesley,
Thanks, as always, for some levity (and humor thrown in for free). I actually thought about being a Psych major (yes, you got it right!) as I find human behavior (okay, behaviour for you) so fascinating. And yes, I’ve never known a N who had the time or inclination to invest any time in classifying people unless it was “People I can use” vs. “People I already used.” Always, Jan

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59. MillyRad - July 16, 2012

Ms. Jan,I just wanted to say thanks for writing these articles on narcissism. I’m about 6 months out of a situation very much like yours: a friendship with a personality disordered man. He shows lots of the traits of cerebral narcissism. I was devalued and discarded when he started dating his current girlfriend, then he picked the “friendship” back up when he realized he could use spending time with me as a way to make his girlfriend feel insecure and/or jealous. Yucky stuff. And I still feel guilty for “abandoning” him.

I’ve found some support and validation through online forums dealing with the targets/victims of people with NPD and BPD. There are spots for parents, children, siblings, and significant-others to personality disordered folks, but no “friends” section. I sometimes wind up feeling dismissed because I was “only friends with” this guy.

Anyways, thanks again for writing this. I’m feeling super inarticulate today, so thanks for reminding me that what I went through was real, not (entirely) my fault, and is allowed to be significant to me. Oh, and did I say “thanks?” 🙂

MillyRad

MillyRad,
I so remember visiting forums and feeling that because I was “just friends’ with the N, that was somehow insignificant compared to what others went through. So, I know how you feel. Joe could be very flirtatious at times, which I found very confusing. Then another woman would walk into the room, and I ceased to exist. He was also cerebral. Don’t feel bad for “abandoning” him. You abandoned a sinking ship that would have taken you down with it. Besides, it’s no fun when someone calls you when it suits them, but the minute something “better” comes along, you’re sent to the back of the line. The hurt you experienced was REAL and there’s no way you could have known ahead of time how confusing and painful this “friendship” would leave you feeling. And your comment is super articulate! Jan

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60. Phil - July 16, 2012

Jan, Lesley (nice to meet you) and Milly also,

First off, a word to Milly. Just as we are all equal in the eyes of God, we are all equally worthless in the eyes of a Narcissist!))
Friends get overlooked because the assumption is that Narcissists don’t have ‘friends’, but then they don’t have significant others (in the true sense of the expression) either!
We are all part of a larger audience whatever your relationsip is to a Narcissist. And you may think that you deserved ‘special seats’ at the show? At the stage winning performance of prima donna Narcissist, there are no ‘good seats’ for ‘special’ members of the audience, just ‘an audience’ to supply attention to the Narcissist.
Everybody once connected to a Narcisst feels as though they ‘deserved’ to be more significant than they were or could somehow have been closer to them? Everyone is a prop, all props are interchangeable and equally dispensable. Some props may be more ‘useful’ than others, but only in their usefullness in gaining Narcissistic supply for the Narcissist.
Reading between your lines Milly, you sound as though you wanted to be a more ‘valuable’ prop to your Narcissist. The same as a ‘significant other’ wanted or deserved to be more significant. 😉
Let me (having been as humanly ‘close’ as it is possible to be to a Narcissist) describe what you missed out on………..
I the Narcissist will grant Milly the ‘special priviledge’ of being close to ‘ME’. Welcome on stage and into your new ‘role Milly. First off, here are MY rules. ‘This is MY show, I am the star of this show and that is MY audience!’ You Milly, are extremely fortunate to have been cast in a ‘supporting role’ at MY performance. Naturally you must be ‘giddy with joy’ at having being granted such a special status. I can only imagine what it must feel like, to stand on stage in a ‘bit part’ performance next to ME? I can almost feel how jubilant you are having being granted this priviledge?! 😉 Now that you’re on stage, have a look at the stage lights. Do you notice how all the stage lights are tightly focused on ME? Because I know that EVERYONE must be like me (even though I’ve never thought enough about ‘other people’) I know you want to be on stage, you want the spotlights and you want the applause of that audience which is MINE!!!! Now (lucky Milly) as the stage lights focus on me, inevitably some of the light may bounce off me and dimly illuminate on you also. I can tell how overjoyed you are at this prospect, wouldn’t you like just a tiny little bit of that spotlight also?))) Remenber only one thing and don’t you ever forget this Milly, you have only been allowed on MY stage to help facilitate the adulation and attention of an audience towards ME!!! When I speak, whenever I do anything, MY audience will be in raptures with praise and applause. If you do or say anything, it is only for the effect of gaining MY applause and attention. If for one second you get undue or undeserving applause, cause me to make some or other effort in helping your part…………. you are history, You will never act again, I am influential and I have powerful friends, I am powerful, my audience loves ME and is there for my applause, if you cross me Milly………..you will never act again!!))))))

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61. Donna - July 17, 2012

To Phil, Jan and Milly, just from me. I was and have been through some very disordered people in my lifetime. The ExN friend is one of the worst because I recently learned he is a Pimp and now my son’s wife seems to fit the profile, maybe as the whore; I am not
going to get into all the drama at this time because it does me no good. They are part of my life history because these folks ofter me no good or positive feelings or emotions and are only about what makes them feel good on the outside; they have no true, real or deep feelings, conscious or empathy for anyone but themselves. These are my laymen’s words and I don’t have a degree in anything but life. So,all I can offer at this time is never give your power away and watch, look and listen to the people that you let into your Life….

Hugs, to All!!!

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Phil - July 17, 2012

To Donna (Lesley I haven’t overlooked your post, my eventual reply is going to be very long as I have so much to say on it)

Donna, that was beautifully expressed in very concise language. You certainly identify a true Narcissist is and the effect that they have on you and others. As you advise others, hopefully you’ve gained enough personal insight into these people (and yourself) to avoid similar hurt in the future.

I think most of are just thinking out loud, trying to make sense of the inexplainable and find explanations for those things we are still ‘head scratching’ over. I think some of us just take a lot longer than others to find closure. It’s like not wanting to put a book down until you’ve finnished it, understood its content and meaning. A to ‘understand the book (if it can be understood) you sort of keep re-reading it.

Phil

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Donna - July 17, 2012

I thank you Phil for your response to my comment. From my experience we all have experienced NPD folks, I can’t point a finger at anyone, any more too many….”I am not a perfect person”. I hope you can break it all down and find some peace for you and the rest of your life.

What’s more important for me /you is finding our peace and balanced. It has to begin with Me and not another person. I have cried, cared, loved them all; but did they love and care about me back. “NO” is the answer…..All I can do is send you some internet love and hope that you can find your peace and balance. These men/women are “Who they Are” and we can’t fix it or change it. For me, it doesn;t mean I stopped caring about them, however they can’t be in My Here/Now…….Hugs, love and peace!!!

Donna,
I just got home after a not-so-leisurely 14-hour-drive from Idaho. So sorry to hear what I know is just the tip of the gory iceberg, but as my friends in 12-Step programs say, you can only clean up your own side of the street. It’s always painful when those near and dear to you are playing with fire. The most important thing is to keep your own head above water. When my husband was a boy, he once saved a boy from drowning, but because the boy fought him, he almost drowned in the process. At least with your head above water, you can see what’s really going on and not be pulled under. Jan

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62. Phil - July 17, 2012

Lesley,

Thankyou for your input. I’m glad that you’ve highlighted some thougts I expressed in a way that could be misleading. My careless choice of the word ‘need’ may have implied that the Narcissist cares about, or has a concern for or genuine interest in others…..
I said that the Narcissist has a ‘need’ to label people in terms of mental illnesses and personality disorders. My wrong choice of the word ‘need’ could imply that the Narcissist has some interest in the thougts and feelings of other people as seperate entities in themselves.

It is nothing short of ‘sinful’ to make a remark on this subject, that might contain a modicum of ‘hope’ where none exists!
As you and Jan point out, the Narcissist is never genuinly concerned or interested in the feelings (or psychology) of others (unless it serves some useful purpose for the Narcissist). For a Narcissist, other people might as well not exist, other than for the purpose of Narcissistic supply. The only ‘NEED’ for a Narcissist is the ‘NEED’ for Narcissistic supply))

If I could go back and re-write my comments, I would say that the Narcsissist at times finds it ‘useful’ to label people, often as an afterthought and only for serving his own purposes!

People who have Empathy use their ability to understand others, in order to better make sense of the other person and the unique interaction of two seperate and different minds.

What I think the Narcissist does, is to take a logical assumption that ‘others’ think and feel exactly as they do, or if they don’t then they ought to. Thereafter the Narcissist (apart from ones with degrees in Psychology;) don’t give much insightful thought (or care about) the workings of the minds of others. In part the Narcissist’s wishful perception of ‘mental illness’ in others, explains why other people become unhinged, angry, dissolutioned and alienated, all for no apparent reason?

The fact that this endless repetition occurs time and time over for the Narcissist, could be a source of cognitive dissonance and indication that they are perhaps somebody less perfect than they imagined?

Thankfully, the ‘slings and arrows of unspeakable fate’ offer some explanation for the Narcissist. 🙂 The Narcissist is an extremely unlucky soul, spending a lifetime of ill fate meeting so many less than perfect people 😉 But rationale dictates here is further proof that nobody can be as perfect as the Narcissist, hence their inevatble failure. The dialogue goes ‘Why is it always me who attracts them?’ or something profound along those lines. 🙂

The other useful function of a Narcissist’s desire to label a mental illness in their victim, is part of the need to devalue and debase that person. The Narcissist’s dialogue will probably read ‘That Schizoid abandoned me’ )) Of course the victim who has abandoned the Narcissist, is now completely devoid of any human features whatsoever. (Not that the Narcissist cares much about humanity to begin with)

A label serves as a useful tool to debase and de-humanise a victim who is no longer a source of Narcissistic supply. At the same time it gives the Narcissist the added conviction of rightouesness in himself. Whenever I hear somebody say ‘you’re sick, get professional help’. I’m never sure if these are the reproachful words of a victim to the abuser, or a smug parting shot from an abuser to the victim?)

As is the theme of Jan’s website ‘Close encounters with a Narcissist’ it is very difficult to distinguish the percieved from the real until you are ‘up close’
The best analogy I can offer, is to go to a New Year’s party and point out the real alcoholic amoungst the other revellers??!! Current trends in society make detection of a ‘real’ Narcissist harder than ever. Sometimes I read a popular Newpaper or Magazine article and wonder if I got it all wrong? ))

The only real distinguishing feature of a true Narcissist is their complete inability to empathise, in my opinion.

In my opinion, the only key to this phenomenon is understanding empathy and it’s lack of.
My personal experience of a Narcissist is somebody of high Social and economic class, a high IQ (with an outstanding Education) and good intellectial/temporal abilities. At the same time, the EMOTIONAL and MORAL development is that of a six year old. I will contradict what I said about ‘spotting’ a Narcissist with some cursory observations of people not ‘close’
First off, peoples quick perceptions would be ‘How can somebody obviously so intelligent be so stupid?’ The narcissist has limited social skills and limited social intelligence. The ‘in the street’ observer uses the unfortunate description of ‘stupid’ pertaining to common sense and social intellence. What they are seeing of course, is emotional immaturity! Hence the obvious paradox to even a casual observer.

I don’t think you can explore the subject of a Narcissits lack of empathy in terms of thier emotional and maturity to much. Whenever I go off tangent, I remind myself that I’m dealing with a fully functioning adult with the emotional and moral maturity of a 6 year old. I think Lesley goes of track (as I often do myself) in talking about a ‘lack’ of emathy or a suspension of empathy.

This is my eureeka moment. A 6 year old never reaches the stage of development of having empathy ……. you can’t loose what you never had. It never existed and it never developed and it never will.
People who have empathy make EXACTLY the same mistake as the Narcissist. Because you have empathy, you assume that somebody has lost it or suppresses it ………….. Tht narcissist assumes that because they don’t have empathy, neither does anyone else!!! The above is the key to undertanding and cutting through all confusion.

I must cut short and add more later……..

Lesley, than you for your post

Phil.

Phil,
I’ve been “on the road” all day. I’ve been following the comments via my iPhone. I think the analogy of trying to point out the alcoholic at a New Year’s Eve party is spot on. Thanks! Jan

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63. Lesley - July 17, 2012

Thanks Phil,
I really liked the analogy of the New Year party,in a sense they are hiding in clear sight? Many societal values these days appear to laud Narcissism as a way to success, I agree.
You brought into sharp focus for me again the ‘revolving door’ aspect of the Narc’s relationships,particularly the somatic narc variety. I was repeatedly confused by my ex’s inability to see that he had essentially being having the same problems in relationships for a lifetime(He was a clever,successful man,who discarded when the mask slipped and when he was found out…).
One significant factor,fairly chilling in hindsight was how he denigrated his ex wife and girlfriends to me at the start of our relationship they were cold,selfish,unstable etc….They each had there own specific faults in his eyes. At the denigration moments and the discard of me…. I then had faults unique to me! The only consistent factor in the dynamic of his relationships was his need to maintain his facade as a hard done by ‘good guy’ who had tried so hard but been unlucky in love.. This defied all logic and would have withstood all therapy. In fact it’s my opinion that the more you try to show understanding to a Narc….the more they denigrate.
They fear you are onto them.
In terms of empathy, I think that the real danger zone for normals is the Narc’s ability to fully emulate empathy when the mask is on. They truly seem to understand but only because they have studied what you need?They are masters at Impression Management.
I caught my ex out several times,once when a family friend was seriously ill and his reactions were strange and self absorbed. He told me that it was a hassle to go to the hospital to visit but that he felt he ‘had to go’ because it would look bad if he didn’t. This was concerning an elderly woman who had been close to him for decades??
Another factor was when we went to a film or to a gallery or show he would watch my reaction as if to determine how to act? I felt that he could only show emotion if it was something he directly associated with affecting him. For example children killed in a foreign country would not move him…it had no bearing on him.
Thanks for the insights Phil- the last paragraph is particularly helpful.
Les

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Donna - July 18, 2012

To my new friends, I have learned alot from these disordered ppl. My mother, stepfather, middle brother, Exh, EXF and some other fake friends. They were “Life Lessons Learned” and I listened. These ppl shared with me some very wize wisdom that has truly helped during my lifetime stresses and struggles. They gave it to me without even knowing and I will be always greatful. Of course they are no longer in my life. They gave me a pretty significant gift that they can never take away. It’s “That NO is not a bad word”, and you can have a healthly future……

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Vivian - March 17, 2013

Lesley I found this July entry so interesting. I am reading the summer of 2012 with all of you and some of these entries are so closely related to my experience with the N ( suzi particularly) that we could be speaking of the same person!
I like your description of the gallery and the fact that ‘he’ watched you to know how to act himself!
Talk about lack of empathy: I was telling my NPD guy about helping a fam from Hurricane Katrina, and he was intently listening and after a long while looked me straight in the eye and said,” you know what? You are a d&^^ democrat, aren’t you?”
Unreal. and Hysterical at the same time!!!!LOL!! So Phil, I have to say that for months I thought mine wasn’t a narc bc he simply wasn’t intelligent enough. But if you look up somatic narcissist in the dictionary,,,there is his name:):)

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64. Phil - July 18, 2012

lesley, I want to discuss some more thoughts that are still coming to me from your first post. (I’ll write them later as it will take quite a while) Before I do though ………

Something is nagging at me when you are describing your ex. I’m beginning to wonder if he falls into the ‘psychopath’ end of the spectrum? The absence of Empathy qualifies somebody as a Narcissist, but the absence of an emotional response altogether is typical of a Pschopath……….

Let me explain my thoughts.

When I think about my ex, she could express sympathy (which I think was genuine) but not empathy. She had feelings of sympathy for others, but her emotional response was directed back at herself, to be interpretted from her own perspective, in relation to her own feelings……..

My breakthrough in understanding this came from a line of poetry by an old cynic called Philip Larkin (a favourite of mine)

I don’t want to talk about the poem, which is profound in many ways. I want to concentrate on a particular line in abstract.

Larkin wrote a poem called Ambulances. The context of the poem is about a person being stretchered into an Ambulance (impending death of the casualty is implied).
On the street as bystanders are some old women, they become distressed at the sight of this person being placed into the ambulance.

Larkin describes the reaction and emotional response of these women as ………..”Poor soul, They whisper at their own distress;”

Larkin is a real old cynic, but what he describes perfectly is how people can show sympathy and have an emotional responce, only in reference to thier own feelings. The sight of the casualty makes them think about their own mortality and eventual death. The sorrow they feel is for themselves!!

I think that the difference between sympathy and empathy, is showing feelings for others that don’t have any direct bearing on our own feelings, then attempting to feel something from the other’s perpective and not your own.

Let’s say that you want to sing in a choir and go for an audition. And for arguments sake, lets say that personaly I can’t stand choir music and don’t understand the pleasure anyone could get from singing.
Let’s also say that your audition is unsuccessful and you are devastated with dissapointment ……….
For me to empathise with you and feel your dissapointent, I have to imagine your ambition to sing and the joy you would have experienced in singing.
If I couldn’t empathise I’d think or say, ‘I sympathise if you are somehow upset, that’s the end of my thoughtsl’

A Narcissist has emotions (even sympathy) but can’t express true empathy in my opinin.

Lesley, the reason I think your ex is within the psychopath spectrum, is that psychopaths have no emotional responce themselves, and emotions in others are just guessed at.

Take a walk by the cliffs with me and I’ll be a psychopath!!! )))
As we are walking along, a stone falls from the cliff edge and crashes on the rocks below. We both notice it fall, we don’t comment on it and both carry on walking.
Walking futher along there is a birds nest on the cliff edge. A baby bird falls from the nest and lands on the rocks below, breaking its wings. We both notice this event.
I the psychopath have no emotional responce which is different between a falling baby bird or a falling pebble. I do notice the effect the latter has on you though. How strange I think? I must make a note this unusual effect (emotion) in other people, in resonce to certain occurances. I can feel absolutely nothing and see no difference between a stone and a bird. Taking note of emotion in others may be useful for my nefarious purposes though!)))))

.

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65. Phil - July 18, 2012

Lesley,

To summorise my ideas. I think a Narcissist is an adult with a 6 year old’s emmotional and moral maturity. A six year old is still largely pre-occupied with their own perspective and emotions. It’s as though what they are aware of in others, is only insight gained from what they know about themselves. They are still concerned with and pre-occupied by their own feelings and emotions, therefore insight into the emotions and feelings of others, is percieved purely in reference to what they know about themselves.

A six year old’s narrative might be ‘Jane fell over and cut her knee, I once fell over and cut my knee, it hurt and I cried.
Paul is crying because his mum is trying to make him eat carrots. I love carrots, Paul is being very stupid!’)))

The possibility that others may interpret and experience the world differently (and to give consideration to this) hasn’t been thought about or deemed worthy of much thought while you are pre-occupied with yourself. The later stage of ‘putting yourself in someone elses shoes’ is never reached or cared about, time given to this consideration is at a low priority. As most people mature and develop empathy for others ……. a Narcissist is still centred on themselves.

What I’m thinking about your ex Lesley, is if his pseudo empathy is the hallmark of a psychopath …….. i.e. are all emotions are to be guessed at???

Phil

Phil,
Just out of curiosity, I goggled “sympathy vs. empathy.” http://grammarist.com/usage/empathy-sympathy/
There numerous other sites that contrast these two emotional responses. I think it’s telling that if I want to buy a card for someone, there’s an entire section of Sympathy cards. I imagine it’s my empathy that would send me to the store to buy one in the first place. A N might buy a card (because that’s what people are supposed to do), but they’d be hard pressed to write a genuine message. It’s just too hard to fake some emotions.
Joe would talk about what a caring person he was, but it was just that – talk. I saw ZERO empathy in him, yet he was not a psychopath. BTW, I have several friends who teach first grade. I’ll have to print out “Now We Are Six” and get their feedback.
Jan

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66. Lesley - July 18, 2012

Hi Phil and I appreciate the insight. Yeah, last week during a reflective phase I thought ‘Boy,some of his behaviour was psychopathic’ so it did occur to me with a shudder….
Cheers for the Larkin reminder. What a poet and complex man. One of my faves,especially ‘An Arundel Tomb’. He moves from old cynic to profound love with such ease. My choice of the Laureates!
Please accept my wish that you continue to recover after your own awful experience and once again thanks for sharing your perspective.
Light Shine
Les

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67. Phil - July 18, 2012

Hi Jan and Lesley,

Lesley (I’m still meaning to cover some points from your first post) 🙂

Jan, I read the google definition and it seems a good one. The unfortunate thing is that the words Sympathy and Empathy get interchanged and mixed up too often. Not only in peoples word definitions but also in their thinking (me included). The definition on google seems to do an adequate job of delineating the two.
Just the same as Love, Like and Lust get mixed up quite a lot too ;), Confusing Sympathy and Empathy will muddy the waters when thinking about and trying to understand a Narcissist.

What I think isn’t made explicit in any definition, is that Empathy is a ‘top end’ emotion and is very exclusive.
I show sympathy 98% of the time and empathy 2% of the time. Sympathy is expressed for distant friends and aquaintances, even strangers. Empathy is expressed for my nearest and dearest and significant others.
I think that we have an unspoken expectation that our very closest and loved ones (who hopefully love us also) show us or are capable of showing empathy to us.

If we go back to Larkin, the women who showed sympathy for the stranger being stretchered into the ambulance were not callous. In context, you wouldn’t expect strangers to show empathy for strangers …. they did sympathise with the words ‘Poor Soul’ …..whilst having their minds fixed firmly on their own plights. Sympathy not empathy. And in context not an indictment of the women’s lack of emotion. It was an appropriate response to the situation.

I would never claim to be empathising when I’m sympathsing. That doesn’t make anyone bad, just realistic. If a distant friend told me they were empathising I’d think they either had their definition wrong or were exaggerating. 🙂 But I know I’m capable of empathising and I reserve it for those closest who I care most about.
The Narcissist just doesn’t know how to empathise (and if he could I’m not sure if he would want to). It’s that giant leap of stepping into ‘another’s shoes’ and attempting to feel as if you are the other person, which they are incapable of.

Going back to my ex. If she was 6 years old and my daughter. I would think she was a wonderful little girl. For a sixyear old girl as my daughter (and dependant), I couldn’t hope for a more cute and charming 6 year old girl. The emotional and moral maturity of a 6 year old in an adult partner is highly taxing beleive me!

My ex definitely meets the criteria of Narcissist and just passes.
Lesley, I think your ex passed the Narcissism test with flying colours and is so high at the top of the class you need to think if he is in the psychopath club.

P.S. I liked your observation on Larkin. Few people appreciate the ‘profound love’ he shows in his poetry.

Phil

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68. Phil - July 18, 2012

Jan, I think you hit the nail on the head with the word ‘genuine’
Looking back my vocabulary at the time was peppered with the words ‘genuine’ and ‘sincere’, or the lack of from my ex should I say.

At the time I wasn’t describing my ex as a Narcissist, I knew very little about this personality. I seemed to have a working knowledge of it without a definition of it.
One thing I remember saying sarcastically was ‘Is it yourself or is it other people you are trying to convince’ ……….. and I was implying that in her case it was both!!))

Somehow I’d managed to describe a Narcissist with insight and without a reference to psychology. i,e, you are somebody so fake that your whole life is all about trying to fool yourself and at the same time trying to fool everyone around you also))))

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69. Lise - July 19, 2012

Yes, the fakeness / lack of essence and the complete identification with ‘form’, is what is most striking about narcissists.

When our relationship ended I asked my ex what on earth it had all meant to him, his reply was; “Lise, we haven’t been able to dominate each other, you don’t fit my blueprint, I saw you as a convenience, it’s time to move on”. I asked him if he understood the essence of a relationship because it seemed to me he was much more concerned with ‘form’. He said to me: “Everything in life is about form and appearance”. I realised I was engaged and almost married to someone who defines himself by appearance and perceived me as an object, dispensable and interchangeable.

Then I read what Eckhart Tolle says about this:

If evil has any reality – and it has a relative, not an absolute, reality – this is also its definition: complete identification with form – physical forms, thought forms, emotional forms. This results in a total unawareness of my connectedness with the whole, my intrinsic oneness with every ‘other’. When this delusion of utter separateness underlies and governs whatever I think, say, and do, what kind of world do I create? To find the answer to this, observe how humans relate to each other, read a history book, or watch the news on television tonight.

If the structures of the human mind remain unchanged, we will always
end up re-creating fundamentally the same world, the same evils, the
same dysfunction.

Patricia Evans (Controlling people) has this to say on this subject:

Unfortunately our Western culture has not only been outwardly focused to the exclusion of inner experience, but also has adopted a philosophy of duality. This philosophy assumes that the power and grace of the universe, of ‘All That Is’, is something so separate that when we say ‘God’, we already mean that which is separate from us, as if we were not held in divine intention – a part of all that is. This duality, like a mindset, can act as a lens excluding the experience of connectedness.

I think my ex mistakes himself for his own image. His whole life in order to be ‘right’ must fit within a particular scheme of things, fabricated into an identity that substitutes for the one his parents denied him… And it made him into a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hide; I truly loved his warm, gentle side, that’s why I tried so hard. But the evil, arrogant, self-centered and self-entitled monster inside had to come out at some point and it wasn’t pretty…

Lise,
I find the quote from Eckhart Tolle extremely interesting. I recently watched the documentary, “I Am,” (which I highly recommend). His search for happiness (and ultimately the meaning of life) led him to find that our interconnectedness is literally what makes the world go round – as is with the natural world.
I think you’re onto something when you mention “form.” I’ve found that most Ns seem to have a mental blueprint in their heads about how things should be. It matches no blueprint that any of the rest of us have, but it seems to be their “How To” manual for relating with humans. They have a vague intellectual understanding of a relationship, but it’s all in their heads – along with lots of other odd bits and pieces. And their blueprint is not subject to revision. 🙂 Jan

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Phil - July 19, 2012

Lise, If you haven’t read it already (and there is a Film adaptation of it, but I recommend the book) I think you would like ‘Picture of Dorian Gray’ by Oscar Wilde .

It made me really think about what beauty is. People are preoccupied with aesthetics and form ….. everythinng on the outside and physical appearance. Narcissists are all show and no substance!

A favourite quote of mine from the novel is “There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful.’

My concept of beauty is not primarilly concerned with form or aesthetics. If the two occur together then great, a nice co-incidence. There’s nothing worse than somebody with a pretty face and an ugly heart!((

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70. Donna - July 19, 2012

Lise, you are not alone in your experience with your ex. It is really a wake up call for many of us and all the dysfunctional families so many children have grown up in and still will be growning up in, in the future. Their warm, caring, gentle side goes poof and Mr. J &H rears his ugly head and is a shock to our empathic systems. My son even said to me , “Mom you know that the Devil is real and still lives in our world”. All i could say is “Yes” because I saw him in my real life, and I don’t want to see that person again…….. Take care of yourself…

Donna,
I just spent time with my sister-in-law whose first husband grew up with an extremely controlling and narcissistic mother. She had eight children, six of them boys, and it seems that half the boys grew up to be….Ns, or at the very least emotionally abusive men. She knows because their wives have come to her to tell their own stories of emotional abuse. What’s amazing is that some children emerge from such a dysfunctional childhood and are able to give and receive love. And your son is oh so right. I’ve never understood when people talk about dying and going to Hell, as I’ve known many a person whose life was literally hell on earth. Halycon (on my blogroll) has a great story about meeting the devil. All you can do is try to surround yourself by people who are real and caring. That’s like holding a cross up to a vampire (no religious implication intended). Always, Jan

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71. Lise - July 19, 2012

Hi all, thank you for the comments and tips on further reading concerning the topic. I’d like to share another article on the difference between ego development, narcissism and spiritual enlightenment. It really helped me answer lots of questions that popped up one after another once I started to read into narcissism.

This is a summary: Ego development is a necessary aspect of the personal growth process, while narcissism is the thing we’re trying to outgrow. We are all to some degree narcissistic; we all have shadow aspects we’d rather not deal with. But we must be willing to face them if we are to transcend them. “Include and transcend” is the basic pattern for all growth, and explains why ego development is necessary on the path to spiritual enlightenment. Outgrowing our narcissism isn’t the only factor in personal development, but it is an essential one. Integral personal development—which ultimately results in enlightenment—requires both.

For full article see: http://www.bravenewkitty.com/2007/11/ego-narcissism-and-spiritual-development/

Enjoy!
Lise

Lise,
I just read the article. It’s brilliant in explaining the hows and whys of the importance of developing a healthy and fully-formed ego. Thanks so much for the link. 🙂

A note to all who’ve been commenting recently. Thanks so much for being such a thoughtful and caring bunch. Your comments and insights have helped me regenerate brain cells that were lost during the school year. It’s a welcome relief from the mental stimulation my third graders provide to me. Here’s an example:

Student: Hey, why did the dinosaur cross the road?
Me: I give up. Why?
Student: What road? Get it? hahahaha

Thanks again for all the food for thought. Always, Jan

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72. Phil - July 20, 2012

Lise,

Thanks for the link, it offers a good insight into how the healthy development of ego growth and functioning can progress in an ideal way.
It could be tempting to think that a Narcissist can become enlightened, discover themselves and progress? Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any hope for the Narcissist or those around them. I’m not a pessimist by nature. If you take the ‘script’ of a Narcissist developed personality, I don’t think it’s possible to go back and repair, overcome or re-work their development in a progressive way. They often became Narcissists as a defense mechanism, in respose to some huge emotional trauma. Narcissism was the only way out and the only way forward in their situation. It is who they are and who they become, false and problematic as it may be. The only alternative to Narcissism would be somebody with very little self worth, a completely inadequate human being always on the edge of suicide. A Narcissist never comtemplates suicide, because the emotional trauma victim who they were died in childhood!((

Thanks to everyone for the depth of thinking here. The exchange of thoughts between between people might just have been about ‘venting anger’ on a particular N who happened to unsettle their existence, this discussion is so much more.

The problem with Narcissists, is that they inevitably invoke anger and cause untold misery in those around them. This will always be true.
I don’t want to use up unnecessary sound bites talking about my own situation for the sake of it. I want to talk about and share with you my sympathy for a Narcissist (in spite of the personal harm and hurt caused ) to explain why she became one and will always be that way.

Here is the case study of my Narcissist ex: (names changed)

Alice enjoyed a perfectly normal and happy early childhood. She is the eldest child from (what was) a respectable and good family, of high social and economic class. She also has a younger brother called William, 2 years her junior. Alice, along with her Mum and Dad and younger brother, all lived together in a beautiful large house. It was (and still is) situated in the most idylic neighbourhood. It is an affluent English village, typical of what you may see on a postcard.
Alice’s earliest retrievable memories, are of being carried in a pappouse on her daddy’s back. She remembers the clean fresh air and breathtaking scenery of the beautiful English countryside, all experienced from the safety of ‘daddy’s’ strong and loving arms.

As Alice gradually grows, she learns how to walk and talk. Bounced up and down on Daddy’s knee, she basques in the unconditional love and attention of her idol. When nursery rhymes and bedtime stories are read by daddy, she is captivated and mesmorised. Alice is the ‘apple of Daddy’s eye’. She loves him dearly and he is also the ‘apple of her eye’ too at that time.

By her own estimation (and admission) she becomes and is, ‘Daddy’s’ girl. )))
Like any other little girl who gravitates towards her father, she can easilly throw her arms around him at will, without a thought or a care, safe in the knowledge of his similar affections for her also.

And just as Alice may enjoy the monopoly on Daddy’s love and attention. Mummy develops a close bond with her younger brother William, too.

For Alice, her early childhood is like a fairytale, hazy memories full of unconditional love and attention.

Now, stormclouds are about to descend on the happy existence that is and was Alice in her previously happy universe.

During the summers, she enjoys camping holidays with her family, taken alongside other similar, normal happy families, very much like her own.

Alice is now around 12 or 13 years old, she is an adolescent. This is unquestionably a very difficult age, even when experienced by somebody during the most stable of circumstances. But for a child who’s circumstances are about to be thrown into turmoil from the outside as well as from the inside. The resulting carnival of confusion and hurt is an even bigger melee, how to make sense of it, let alone come to terms with it, one can only guess at?

On one of these wonderfully charming family holidays, Alice’s dad becomes aquainted with another woman. She is the wife and mother of another family, very similar to Alice’s. Except this is the woman who Alice’s dad should have married, had he known of her existence before he married mummy years ago. This woman is without question Daddy’s ‘soul mate’, the women he was destined to be with.

Alice’s mum was something of a ‘beauty’ in her youth, she even modelled before she got married and had children. Dad’s new companion has unquestionable wit and charm though, she understands him on levels that mummy could never comprehend, let alone aspire to. That’s what soul mates are, afterall!

A divorce and re-marriage are now called for, daddy owes it to himself to live the full existence he (and everyone else) so deserves….. it would be a betrayal of his desires and needs (and that of his new found companion) to not do so.

Alice’s parent’s marriage starts to disintergrate. Daddy starts to find fault with everything. Everything around him is everything he never wanted, all this was forced on him. One night Alice’s parents argue fiercly. Alice’s dad screams at her mum in a rage. ”I NEVER wanted those children, they were your idea and you wanted them, not me’
Alice overhears this exchange between her parents, she starts to sob with uncontrolable grief all alone in her bed.

Daddy now starts being cold and distant to Alice, he criticises her and mocks her. He starts to compare her to her mother. He’s mean and horrible to Alice, when before he was once loving and kind. Alice feels as though all of this is somehow her fault? And if she was a pefectly good little girl, maybe Daddy would still like her and love her, want to be with her? She feels inadequate and guilty. It seems incomprehensibly unfair to Alice, what has she done wrong?
Her sense of self worth is at an all time low. She feels utterly worthless!(

In her desperation, Alice starts to write letters. She asks God why Daddy is being so unkind and what she has done wrong? She hides her anonymous letters in secret places around the house.

(As a sad aside, years later and long after her parents had divorced and moved on. Some children living in Alice’s old home discovered Alice’s hidden letters. They correctly identified the emotionally wounded and desperate little girl, who had written and hidden these letters to be Alice. Alice was thoroughly humbled and embarrassed to have her childhood writings returned to her as an adult(((

In the new order of family arrangements. It was still a possobility that Alice may have chosen to live with her dad and his new family, but on condition. She must prepare herself to be as part of the furniture, rarely seen and little heard of. This was the unspoken expectation, understood to be part of any possibility of a future life with her Dad.((
Of the two choices, she chose to live with her mum and brother, until she enventually enrolled full time into boarding school.

Whilst mummy had always loved and cared for Alice as any mother would for her daughter, Alice’s mummy idolised her brother William. After William became an adult with a succuessful career and life of his own. Alice would notice how her mum’s heart would leap with joy and beam with pride at the mere mention of William’s name. The return home of William if even just for a visit, was a festival of joy for mummy. But then Mummy had always loved William, he had never lost or become any less in her affections thoughout the years. Alice rationalised to me once, that it was a lucky thing William was her brother and not a sister. Imagine if it was her sister and therefore an equal rival, who was winning the affection of mummy over her? …. I surmised that It would be the last and undisputable proof of her very low sense of self worth and inadequacy((

Alice’s life is truly divided into two parts, there is before and after her childhood trauma.

All life after her trauma is the ‘actng out’ of her childhood conflicts. The script is always the same, the actors and scenery may change with every new performance, but the script remains largely intact. The script keeps its overall integrity, there may be a few very subtle varations of the same overall theme, that’s all.

A very early variation was to ‘find a substitute’ daddy, in somebody who she had always hoped and imagined her ideal partner would be like. Her first infatuation was for a college tutor, he was kind, caring considerate…….and also embarrassed to have atrracted the attentions of a minor for both personal and professional reasons.)))
Alice recalls this first fixation with a significant male (other than her father) with some degree of shame, clearly noting obvious her reasons for indulging this particular surrogate ‘father’ with her affections…. even a Narcissist has some degree of self awareness, from time to time.)))

However much as you change actors and scenarios though. The script must remains the same and the ending is always the same too. A partner is drawn close, a partner becomes close, a partner becomes emotionally involved, a partner is alienated and eventually abandons the Narcissist. It’s just like the first time around, maybe this time for a reason and one which the Narcissist was in control of, consciously or unconsciously?

Apart from the highly asymetrical nature of a relationship with a Narcissist and the emotional drain it places on a person. It was this acting of a ‘script’ to the effect of creating a landscape of external conflict similar to the internal one, which was my reason for leaving my Narcissist. Alice was able to manipulate friends and cause hostility, jealousy and conflict amoungst people where there otherwise existed harmony. Sometimes she would create situations designed to cause jealousy, her desire to control people and to gain (or loose) their attentions was her type of engineering of and manipulation of social interactions……… in control, but not in control.
All a paradox!

Phil

Hi Phil,
This is interesting as it seems that Alice not only “lost” her father (in both the physical and and emotional sense), but that from her father’s heated remarks, she took it that everything she thought/loved about her father was an act – a sham. It invalidated her own perception of her own seemingly happy childhood.

I have a friend who’s quite smitten with a woman who has “issues” about getting emotionally close to men. These are BIG issues, as he’s been seeing her for going on two years now. He’s afraid that even holding hand will send her running. She’s in therapy and talks about how her father left her mother when she was 17 for the woman across the street. This abandonment and the realization that her father was not the man she idealized deeply affected her though she’s got a good relationship with her father now (11 years later). However, she’s unable to let any man get emotionally close to her, so my friend has been reduced to being like a therapy dog to help her overcome her fear of men. I think there’s more to it then what she’s saying, but it’s hard to know when the only information you have is from the person who has issues. Everyone tells their story through their own filter of what happened.

I read this with great interest as it so reminded me of our close friend who was diagnosed as Borderline (BPD). She was an adored only child. She later learned that her father was a Nazi (she always liked to think he was “just” in the Hitler Youth), who then came to America because of his scientific credentials (one of America’s dirty little secrets). He committed suicide when she was 12 – she was in the next room. Her mother remarried a powerful man who was also an alcoholic. Our friend ceased to exist as her mother was so involved with her new husband and their social life. Then when she was 19, our friend’s boyfriend shot and killed himself – also while she was in the next room. So, she had some MAJOR abandonment issues that pertained to both men and women. We lived next door to this woman for three years and were close friends. If there wasn’t drama, she had a way of creating it. We excused a lot of her insecurities, bad behavior because we knew her back story.

And yes, she also had a habit or repeating the same old script with each new boyfriend. The minute they made the slightest criticism/suggestion, she took that as a full-on assault and would behave in such a crazy manner that they ran for the door. Then, of course, she had the proof that they intended to abandon her, just as her father, mother, and boyfriend had done. It became a self-fulfilling prophecy. I’m just wondering if your ex could possibly be Borderline as they have a strong Narcissistic streak as well. Just a thought. Jan

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73. Lesley - July 20, 2012

Hi Jan and all,
Loving this discussion,some thoughts from me…
I feel we all relive or manage early childhood trauma,and we continue to do this throughout our lives,which may lead to repetitive relationships and a perceived ‘second chance’ to put things right.
The up side being that we can also draw on the nurturing we received back then too when tough times come? As we develop into ‘real’ adulthood other coping strategies come into play we reflect on behaviour and mature emotionally.We learn from mistakes,adapt and grow.
For the narcissist,this seems to play out differently.Their inner resources were shot and died in childhood so they experience trauma,as a child alone and as if for the first time.
I say this as someone who is beginning to experience pity for Narc’s journey through life.
I also read with great interest and appreciation Lise’s comment on interconnectedness within the universe as being a path of spiritual survival for these times. Again I reflect with pity that a narcissist would be unable or unwilling to bear this because to be connected to another human being or to want to be signals horrible pain..
We all have a shadow self,a darker side and again, I concur with Lise the only way to confront this and make it ‘lighter’. Is through self awareness. Again something foreign to the Narc,who will never know himself.
As an example, in my thirties( I am mid forties now), I experienced a bereavement which forced me to draw on every resource I had and ultimately and positively led me to greater self awareness, a new spirituality and a new connection with others as well as daily practises of reflection,balancing time,physically exercising etc.
Other’s might call it an epiphany but I see it as an image, of walking from a darkened room into a sunlit one.
In general every relationship I had improved, including the one I had with myself.
Although I was still caught out by by the ex and duped by him, I do feel that if I hadn’t had the trauma ten years ago… I might still be with my Narc,still fathoming still walking on egg shells,still objectified etc.
As I sit here and write this I am in a place of sympathy for him,something that I never expected to happen or could have hoped for four months ago. I’m also filled with the sense that things unfold as they should,and this discussion on Jan’s wonderful site is part of that,
Light Shine,
Les

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Donna - July 20, 2012

I truly can relate to your post Lesley, I have had numerous traumas and losses during my life time, I am (63). However as I recovered from most they will always be apart of who I am and helped me shaping more positive attitudes rather than negative approaches to life issues. They all sent me on a journey to learn something from the trauma. Finding my balance in many areas of my life, health, finances, exercise and eating healthy….Yes, I also had my dark side show up when I have been threatened, which was very scary to say the least, that certainly isn’t a place I ever want to go again. I was also caught off guard when my exf’s mask started slipping and he duped me as well which made me very angry. I am over the anger and sadness that I experienced from this false friend.

I also feel some sympathy for him because he alienates so many people who no longer like him after seeing his true colors, this seemed to happen to individuals who were close to him. I read an article some where that they often grow old and will be alone. It’s sad on so many levels……….and what’s even sadder they can’t change.

So, I do try to find the light and the rainbows.

Donna,
Beautifully put. 🙂 When we experience real pain, we also have the opportunity to experience real growth. The key word is “real.” Jan

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74. Phil - July 21, 2012

Hi All,

I’m truly loving this discussion, thanks to everyone for such profound insights. I’ve gained a tremendous lot over the last week!

Somewhere on Jan’s website there is a little anecdote about a man in Calcutta who lost his sense of smell. He didn’t have to endure the stench of sewers, but having switched off the faculty of smell, he coudn’t smell flowers either. (It was something along those lines, forgive my poor re-telling of it Jan.)
The above is one of the most pertinent things I’ve read on this subject though!))

Samvik describes Narcississts as life’s true Zombies, their emotional faculty was stunted in childhood, they are prevented from having meaningful emotional attachments to others. They are emotionally suspended at development age six according to some.

Whatever their emotional age, It is impossible for them to emotionally develop in meaningful ways alongside their adult self, their adult self is but a ‘false self’ in any case. They can never form meaningful emotional attachments again. (this, is assuming that they once began to, but were traumatised during that emotional development)

I think it’s natural fo feel anger and antipathy for Narcissists after exposure to their personalities. They are such destructive creatures by nature, the inevitable ‘acting out’ of a Narc is bound to create conflict and trouble for everyone, even if their personalities are not trouble enough.))

I think that I can still pity and feel sympathy for a Narc though. One time I was even wondering if I envied them? But only as I might envy the man with no sense of smell that is.

Nothing about a Narc is what it appears on the surface. Almost everything is counter intuitive about their personality and their situation.

Donna says “I read an article some where that they often grow old and will be alone.”
This is undoubtedly true Donna. I should say that my ex will be ‘smelling of cats’ in a few years time! 🙂
But I’m not being vindictive here, because the poor girl has always being alone in my opinion!(((

She has hundreds of friends (superficial friends who only tolerate her in small amounts, usually from a safe distance)
She’s always in a relationship, without ever being in a relationship.
And always part of a group, without ever integrating into that group. Being a Narcissist is quite a lonely existence, I would say.

Having learnt so much, there is still one thing puzzles. I think I start to understand it. Then I have doubts and I’m not quite sure what the real function is of it is at all??

I’m talking about repitition compulsion.
I’ve read some fairly adequate explanations about what it does ….. I know what happens and how it happens …….but still I’m still not convinced WHY it is a necessity though???

The story is on constant replay and the script is unchangeable. The ending is not a good one, it invariably causes pain. But are they ever trying to ‘get it right’ or change anything in replay……?? Are they acting out a ‘script’ without any attempt change what will happen? And if this is the case (which I suspect it is) why the ‘compulsion to do it all over’?

And if they are convincing themselves that next time around the same ending will be caused by them (i.e. when they were children they weren’t in control, but as adults they are) Then ‘if they are in control, why do they never use that control to alter their future History?

In trying to answer all of the above I thought of an embarrassing situation from my own life.
Years ago James Cameron released ‘Titanic’ the first time around. I think it was 1997. I watched it with my wife at the time at the cinema. I was captivated by it, she thought it was ok. We saw it maybe 3 times at the cinema, by this time she was getting bored though. Eventually it was released on VHS tape. I still enjoyed watching it even at home. I’m not usually a compulsive type by nature, but when I was absorbed in watching the film I wasn’t really concerned or ashamed of my obsession with watching it.

When I was watching ‘Titanic’ for the umpteenth time, my wife would touch me on the shoulder and say ‘Phil, the Titanic sinks….. do you think that if you keep watching it, it will somehow not sink? 😉

At other times she’d just shout accross the room a plain, ‘It sinks! (As if to imply that was doing a spoiler, and I was glued to it as though watching it for the first myself, not fully knwing what would happen in the end)

Obviously my wife of the time had a keen enough wit to point out these observation to me.)) Causing me to quickly make my up some half valid excuses about ‘appreciating the cinmeatography, or the historical accuracy etc.) 😉

But looking back, why would somebody watch or replay such a tragic story time and time over?
If there was an alternative ending …………. ;Titanic reaches New York on maiden voyage, all passengers arrive safe and well’

Would I have been happy at the alternate ending???? ))

Phil

Phil,
When I first wrote the Close Encounter with Narcissist series, I was still working with Joe. In the interest of professionalism, I omitted many details, to protect Joe’s identity. Joe moved to another location in 2008 which was a welcome relief. This November it will be four years since I last saw Joe. I ran into him at the movies while with my husband and a friend. Yes, life does go on. I’m telling you this because it was actually Joe who lived in Calcutta where he “lost” his sense of smell. So it’s ironic that these two people are one in the same!

As for your question. First, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. And Ns do think that NEXT time things will be different – thus their pursuit of Ideal Love.
I think the answer is actually much simpler. Last year, I had a student whose “best friend” would turn on him and say the cruelest things. I told the boy that anyone who did that was not a true friend. Invariably, the boy would return to play with his “best friend.” It was only a matter of time until his friend had him in tears yet again. I finally told him the story of The Scorpion and the Frog, and it was like a light went off. After five years, this fable is the still best analogy for me of the Ns behavior. Jan

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75. Phil - July 21, 2012

Jan, lolololol

That’s a beautiful little story! Its a real shame that so many stories and fairytales have a moral. I think the basis of so much literature, is the assumption that life will be fair and everything work out in the end ‘if’ you do the right thing??

I’ve always tried to live by some basic moral guideposts, to treat people fairly and as you yould expect them to treat you. Do good things and hopefully good things will happen to you in return?

Unfortunately life isn’t always like this. It leaves us searching for answers all to often, sometimes from God.

When people ask me what type of parent I am? I tell them a similar story (tongue in cheek).
I say that in order to be a good parent, you have to prepare children for life. In doing this I’ll (for no reason and no purpose whatsoever) out of the blue I’ll punnish my children to catch them off guard. Inevitable they might as ‘What on earth was that for, why are we being punnished, it’s not fair!’
My reply to my children is. That children is your lesson in life. If I wanted you to think that life is fair and everything always happens for a reason, it would be the worst preparation I could give you. Sometimes life is very unfair, it wasn’t your fault and there was nothing you could do….. get use to it, accept it and try to do your best in spite of these unfair knocks! ))))

Phil,
I don’t think the Wikipedia version of The Scorpion and the Frog is nearly as dramatic as when I told the story. I love many fables because the lessons are actually cautionary tales.
As an agnostic (this is my new “non-identity) after watching Neal deGrasse Tyson’s Atheist vs. Agnostic video on YouTube, God is not on my “go to” list for answers. I have been known to ask the universe for some feedback. I believe that life is rarely back or white – mostly shades of gray (not to be confused with the bestseller).
I’ve found that as a parent and a teacher, I don’t have to set up a situation to be unfair to teach children that life is unfair. Opportunities present themselves daily! I’ve often had my class recite in unison, “Life is not fair!”
I received an email the other day from a student I had in third grade (don’t know what they call that in the UK). She’s now 13 and told me that she learned most of what she knows about life in my class! Yikes! I’ve got to be careful about what I tell kids. >wink<
I've been to East Anglia, but never to the West Midlands. Yes, I can see (within 40 miles or so) of where my visitors come from via my Clustr maps). I've written about my trips to England on my blog though I'd have a lot more readers if I included the word "narcissist" in all the titles of my blogs. Jan

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76. Phil - July 21, 2012

Jan,
For a moment I was worried that you had access to my dental records, that you should somehow know I was English? 😉
(Most British peeple wouldn’t understand that one, hence I’ve lived and worked for many years amoungst Americans even though I am English and currently in the UK)

I was brought up in a strict Christian environment, after which I defined myself as an Athiest after that experience! 😀
These days I prefer Agnostic, Athiest is too closed minded for somebody with an open mind,

My reference to God was along the lines of thinking that, even if you don’t beleive beleive in God, he really ought to exist to provide answers and ‘set things straight’ ! All I can surmose is that if God does exist? He’s got a lot of work to do in the afterlife, rewarding and punnishing all those things that didn’t warrant divine intervention on at the time of their occurance.

What I sometimes ask myself, is that in the absence of God, then surely the logical step is to live with an absence of Morals? Be a Hedonist and do as you please if there is no reward or punnishment for it? Somehow I can’t bring myself to abuse people, the basic principles of trust, comapssion and kindness are too ingrained in me.

I think Christians have a lot to ‘live up to’ …. hence why it’s easy to point to hypocrasy. Somebody once said, ‘there was only one true Christian and he died on the cross’

I can’t criticise people for wanting to live good and devout lives though.
Maybe that’s why Narcissists bother me so much??

Phil

Phil,
I actually got up early this morning thinking I might “soften” my comment as it was written late. My views in regards to spirituality are more akin to what Lesley describes in the next comment. I tend to feel most connected to the universe when working in my garden or with children. 🙂 In the US, the rise of Christian fundamentalism and a strictly literal interpretation of the Bible allows for no discussion whatsoever. I find it painful, for example, when the man who shot Treyvon Martin said he had no regrets and that how things unfolded was “God’s plan.” I’ve also been following the news of the shootings in Colorado and always wonder when those who survive credit God for watching over them. It makes me feel bad for those who died – they weren’t on God’s radar?
My husband grew up as a Mormon (all the more important now that we have a Mormon candidate for the president). My husband likes to point out that according to Mormonism, the righteous really don’t get their own “planet” – they get their own “kingdom,” (not to be confused with oh-so-mundane Heaven). So, we’ve got wackos coming out of the woodwork here – it’s not warm and fuzzy like in “The Vicar of Dibley!” (Love that show!)
That said, my husband and I recently went to a performance at a very lovely and loving church, so I could watch my student in a play. He played….Jesus! And did a fabulous job though I’m not sure Jesus ever gave a little wave to the audience as her went up to speak. 🙂 I also don’t think that the flip side of religion is hedonism.
I can out you Brits in a second with your liberal use of the letter “u” as in behaviour. We fought an entire war of independence just to get that “u” out of color! That said, I’ve SO enjoyed my trips to England.
Finally, another expression I teach my students (who come from a variety of cultures) is, “Whatever floats your boat.” We all do what works for us. I’m now going back to bed – because it’s summer and I can. 🙂 Jan

Phil & Les,
It’s almost lunchtime and I’ve already switched from being an atheist (too much work) to being an agnostic. I added an interesting video in Phil’s link above. I’m not at all an “in your face” person (okay, there HAVE been times), so I’m copping to the lesser offense.
Jan

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77. Lesley - July 21, 2012

Jan/Phil,
As someone who was brought up as an atheist and now is not… I’m smiling at our differences.
I’ve never been comfortable with organised religion though, nor do I ascribe a ‘character’ to what I percieve to be a creative force to the universe.To me, many people understand a God through tranferring human motivation to him/her.Yet a God would surely be ineffable,defy human understanding? To trust without full understanding is to me a definition of faith. In both God and in human nature. Something being with a Narcissist can hinder for a time
After I’ve known people a while they often ask me ‘What religion are you,are you a buddhist,a hindu…a cathar? A need to categorise or pigeon hole is endemic to all of us?
I always answer that I was a bit of searcher and am beginning to find what I personally need.
I found that in Plato and St Augustine,in the Koran,the New Testament,in the novels of Evelyn Waugh,even in gardening or meeting an old friend.My perception of God is not polarised,believe me he isn’t sitting on a cloud somewhere thinking up thunder bolts! Nor am I filling out a checklist to get to that cloud.
One of my favourite bits is from the Gnostic texts of the Nag Hammadi scrolls.It reads.
‘Abandon all search for God in temples,by fasting or needless ritual. Instead go by yourself into your room,and be by yourself. Examine your own sources of joy,anger,love and hate,hope and despair and you in time, will find God in yourself.’ Self Awareness leads to awareness of others.The connection is made within us.
Phil,you seem like a caring insightful man but I was slightly taken aback by your words on punishing your children for no reason.As a mum and a teacher I have always done the opposite…explained to my son why he was being punished and strived to link any punishment to real misdemenour. In this he realised actions had consequences?
I agree with Jan,they contend with enough chaos in their daily lives these days that a consistent parent that can be trusted is so important.
I think I get that your motives are based in love but isn’t there a risk that these loving motives lead to them mistrusting you. Just a thought? I may have picked you up wrongly.
Jan,thanks for the link to the festival,I’m winging one back to you!
ps. Any chance of an article about a 46 year old woman who is addicted to watching tennis during the school hols.When Federer moves about that court,how could there not be a God(LOL!!!)
Of course as a Scot, I always want Murray to win,
Les

Les,
As I wrote to Phil above, my views are more akin to yours. I’ve since changed my online identity to something less confrontational after watching Neil deGrasse Tyson’s Atheist vs. Agnostic video on Youtube. It’s “organized/organised religion that doesn’t set will with me. My garden is an incredible place of solace and contemplation for me. Actually, nature in general along with children and dogs. When we arrived in Idaho, we saw the most amazing sunset. We all (my husband, son, and I) took pictures until I asked, “Hey, who’s driving the car?” I posted the photo on Facebook with the caption. “We’re now in Idaho. This is where God lives!” (Of course, to my mind if this were true, there would be free Wifi everywhere!)
Yes, I too, as a mother and teacher bristled at Phil’s mention (though he did add “tongue and cheek” in parentheses) of intentionally doing something random to teach a child a lesson. A parent should be a child’s safe port in a storm, though that’s not always the case.
Les, If your worst guilty pleasure is watching tennis, you’re in good shape (or at least Federer is >wink<). My father-in-law, who just celebrated his 88th birthday, plays tennis twice a week though I doubt with such grace. I'm actually looking forward to watching the Olympics later this month. Please try and arrange for some sunny days, won't you? Jan

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78. Phil - July 21, 2012

Hi All,

I never thought we would be talking about Religeon! I’ll try to keep my comments relevant to Narcissism to continue my ideas if I can?
I never knew I’d be thought of as Tyrant either? 😉 Thank you Jan for pointing out that I said ‘tongue in cheek’ before offering my outlandish views on ideal parenting, I agreed fully with the subsequent qualifying remarks that followed my statement.

To tie in religeon with Narcissism, I want to concentrate on the ‘moral’ component of how contact with a Narcissist may call into question a person’s basic moral beleifs?
Going back to Jan’s wonderful fable of the Frog and the Scorpion. I’m sure that Jan used it to instruct a little boy how ‘A leapoard never changes its spots’ component within the story.

What I find interesting about the story, is that the Frog experiences a breakdown on two levels. Not only does Reason break down, Morals break down also.
Reason dictated that the frog was unlikely to suffer harm in helping the Scoprion. But the frog obviously has a ‘value system’ and a moral component in his character, for him to wish to assist the Scorpion?

It’s a paradox that as an Agnostic, I find myself at times making a strong case for the benefits of God and religeon!))

If I could write God into the fable, then the frog would go to heaven (as reward for his good deed on earth, and the Scorpion promptly dispached to another place obviously)) But……..
I was never instructed that it’s wise to be uncharitable to ‘bad’ people, because your good deeds are likely to bring harm to you?
If anything, I was taught to set a ‘good example’ around such people, just as the Frog does))

So where I’m leading this argument, is that the contagion of a Narcissist will likely effect a breakdown in morals. Unless of course you turn towards the possibility of ‘divine intervention’ on heaven or earth. The morals of frogs would ‘disintegrate’ unless they are able to rationalise and make sense of such tragedies in terms of a divine plan?

I think this is the value of the story of Job in Christianity, it allows us to make sense of the most bizzare and senseless misfortunes that beset good men on earth?

Rather than wishing to use Religeon to brandish Narcissists as evil contagions forcing a breakdown of morals in others. (Which they may well be) I think it’s fairer to say that they haven’t developed a Moral component in their character on a higher level, their ‘nature is stronger than their reasoning also. (The Scopion does end up at the bottom of the river also, remember!) 😉
Go back to a 6 year old’s Emotional and Moral development and it all makes sense again. And for children of this age, you wouldn’t brandish them as bad or evil!

Phil

Phil/Lesley
I found a much better telling of The Scorpion and the Frog.I hadn’t realized that this story was actually told in the movie “The Crying Game.” I do remember reading “Why Bad Things Happen to Good People” years ago and there was a lot of talk about Job and all of his trials. From what I can remember, the moral of the book was basically “Sh&t happens.”
Lesley, I can’t resist telling you that I saw a cartoon in The New Yorker magazine. A piper (is that what you call someone who plays the bagpipes?) is standing before the Devil in Hell. The Devil says, “So you’ll be in charge of the music down here.” LOL Jan

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Vivian - March 17, 2013

Jan, Phil,Lesley: Just wanted to let you know I am so impressed with the respect that each of you have shown each other in this”forum.” I know Jan but it is! Phil , if you are still on here, I just had to say that both the narcissist and I are “Christians” . we believe in God and all that . But I did let my morals slip when I met the narcissist. I take full responsibility. Bewildered doesn’t begin to explain how I felt about my own behaviour. But in the midst of it all, I decided that my talks with God ( usually in the garden or alone) would include beggin for help to rid myself of this man. So when I was driving to see him, I would say,” Ok God, I am headed there now. I know it is stupid . I know it is a sin. Would you please help me with this? because I suck at it.” ANd sometimes I would connect and sometimes not. But always when I saw a cross I felt mercy not judgment. Just wanted to add all of that add from this side of the church house.:) love to all!

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lesley - March 17, 2013

Vivian,
These days Phil tends to post rarely but I am in regular contact with him off blog..he gave me this link to a great site…the lady no longer posts but she leaves it as a resource?
She comes from a very definite Christian perspective but has very little time for Narcs!!!
I don’t follow a set religion as such but her articles are extremely thought provoking and liberating. As follows;
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.co.uk/
Hope you enjoy…L

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79. Lesley - July 21, 2012

Just come in from picking up my nephew at station and he’s now reading this over my shoulder Jan…see how your blog rocks!
Rest assured I’m going to find a Californian Joke…then right back at ya!
Phil, no I don’t think that contact with a Narcissist is necessarily a contagion nor for me,(I own my opinion a my own) a factor that led to ‘a likely breakdown in my morals’. If you read what Donna and I were saying it has actually increased our sense of self and our humanity.
I find that when anger turns to pity, as I’m experiencing these days,
I also feel able to move on. It does take time though as I’m sure you know.
My own faith in a God does not expect or demand a divine intervention in anyway nor do I turn to organised religion.
It is wholly the perogative of others if they choose this path and I would never presume(particularly on Jan’s site lol)to speak for them.
Many of us make sense of life’s tragedies by practising and growing in self awareness which may or may not reflect a divine plan?
My pity for the Narc is tied into their inability to develop this awareness…
So, Jan….payback as follows;
You know you are in California when….
You don’t exterminate your roaches you smoke’em!
You see 25 lawyers chasing an ambulance!
and my favourite…
Your mouses only have one ball!

Les

Les,
Nice try. hehe I don’t understand the last one though unless it’s a reference to the House of Mouse (Disneyland). When I googled “mouses with only one ball” the first site that came up was entitled “Female Promiscuity Controls the Size of YOUR Testicals.” Oh dear… I’m afraid I’m feeling rather blond ATM. BTW, I do love bagpipes. We know someone who plays them up in the park and he had to build a small soundproof room beneath his house so as not to drive the neighbors crazy. I’m afraid I’ll need this joke spelled out for me.

Phil/Lesley: Regarding contact with a Narcissist as a contagion. What I did find was that because Joe was so dismissive of many things that I said, I tended to start to self edit and dish out a little of his own bitter medicine. I think some people, especially those who are involved with someone for a long time, can themselves become removed from their real feelings – as the N keeps denying that these feelings are in fact real. I’m writing a new post that deals with “lack of empathy.” Thanks to all whose comments have made me reflect on this more.

Lesley, I just ran that joke by my husband who’s guessing it refers to a computer mouse and a tracking ball. I haven’t used a mouse for probably a decade, so this was lost on me. Am I getting close? Jan

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Donna - July 22, 2012

To Jan, Phil and Lesley, I have spent alot of time over the last numbers of days discussing alot of stuff about my exnf and others in my life and this morning I realized that I am giving these people much to much attention in my every day life. Yes, I have been touched, injuried and affected by these encounters, however for me the more I discuss and focus on them, gives them power…..I want my power back not as a hater, but as someone who has moved on and forward. Yes, I will always have some very intense emotional feelings about them because I am an emotional person. I want to get back to My “Live and Let Live” frame of mind. Indifference is what I seek, they will have to answer and face their final fate in The Universe one day!

After this past week’s horrific, senseless manslaughter of human life at a Movie Complex in my community, I feel blessed that I am still here and my remaining love ones are safe. I was raised in a Baptist Church with very liberal views and something I remember so well is “Love the Un Loveable” from a distance.

So my new friends here, I am choosing to take a leave of absence to take care of me for awhile. Myself, grandkids, pets and my gardens.

I believe I am a pretty intelligent yet simple Women and life can get much to complicated at times. Take Care, but please don’t forget little ole’ Me………

Donna,
I’ve been following the updates about the shootings in Aurora. I saw from your IP address that you’re not that far away. 😦 Seeing the smiling faces of those who were killed serves as a reminder that life is indeed fragile. I do believe the best tribute we can give those is to celebrate their lives then live our own lives in a way that gives back to our family and community. FYI: I used to keep a NPD website forum site on my bookmark bar, but then I was tempted to check it daily which kept NPD on the front burner. I finally had to move on though my interest in the subject now is to help others. So for me it’s come full circle.
You won’t be forgotten. Believe it or not, I do write some very upbeat posts about school. You can drop in and be a fly on the wall anytime. But until then, get out there and Live and Let Live! Always, Jan

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Lesley - July 23, 2012

Donna,
Life can get too complicated at times you are right. Give those grand-kids a kiss from me,pat the pets and pullout those weeds. It’s too rainy in Scotland for me to weed. My excuse…
So glad you and loved ones are safe. A mindless
tradgedy… thinking of you bearing with it there,
Les

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80. Phil - July 21, 2012

Hi Jan, I’m belatedly answering a previous post where you asked if my ex may be some other PD instead of NPD? I’m sorry it’s about out of place here in relation to the above. I also wanted to get around to addressing some points Lesley raised in a much previous post also. Please forgive the apparent randomness of this one, I started drafting it ages back.

I’ve looked at other personality disorders and considered them as possibilities. Certain symptons appear as same indicators accross vastly different personality disorders, it’s only when summing up the whole picture (and hopefully without trying to get your facts to fit the disorder) that you reach a fairly safe conclusion. Nothing is truly perfect though!

It’s true that some other disorders can be co-morbid with the main disorder. If I was to choose a co-morbid disorder for my ex, then it would be Histrionic.

However, the main NPD description is so striking for my ex, I can largely avoid having to throw in a co-morbid disorder in order to ‘flesh out’ the bigger picture in her case!

What may be of interest to females who are more familiar with ‘Male Narcissists’. Is that the female Narcissist is an almost perfect mirror image of the Male one! (No pun intended, but accept it if you like) 😉
I’ve talked a lot about empathy and its lack of, except militant thoughtlessness isn’t reason enough in itself, for me to leap headforemost into a conclusion of NPD….

And as is so true of so many things in life … it’s always the ‘little things’ 🙂

Ironically, it was the peripheral aspects of NPD that put me into the ‘ball park’ of Narcissm to begin with. The Narcissist is highly autoerotic. For example, having to pull a (naked) female partner away from an open bedroom window, and whilst I was hoping that any unsuspecting neighbours would be spared their blushes …… said female partner was actually ‘hoping’ or fantasising that this is or was the case!! Exhibitionism is often a common predilection of the Narcissist.
Narcissists have an amazing ability to disembowel a person on so many levels. With exceptional ease they have an ability to seperate heart, mind and soul from a body. It’s interesting, that they also have an ability to take it a stage further, seperating parts of a body from a body.
It’s hard to describe, but the enterprises and workings of a mind are often revealed in language.
If I said (for politeness sake) that I liked a partner’s legs. (Obviously you have to reverse things for the female, but you’ll get the idea using some imagination). Said partner will (hopefully) be flattered by the compliment. If I had a ‘fixation’ with said partners legs, her legs being salient features and objects of arousal ……. that’s probably quite acceptable for said partner also. Why should anyone have reason not be flattered by receiving praise or compliment, in regard some or other feature of self?
If my language described ‘legs’ in isolation from the rest of of the body, aside the fact I can seperate possession of heart, mind, soul, intellect, or personality from said body…….
‘Today I’ve being thinking about ‘those legs’, how I want ‘those legs’ to do whatever etc’. You’d probably start to question how my mind was functioning? And like I was, go from being flattered to becoming quite affronted and disconcerted by the ‘tone’ and use of my language )))

Also, A Narcissist can never laugh at themselves. Self depricating humour is off limits. And it’s understandable for them. The mental gymnastics involved in deceiving themselves and everyone around them, hardly leaves scope for being able to laugh at oneself.))

I have so many other reasons and evidence for reaching the conclusion of Narcissm and not some other disorder. Far too many to list here.

Phil

Phil,
Sorry I don’t have any jokes for you. >wink< Yes, it's the little things. I've read somewhere that some Ns can reduce their sexual partners to basically body parts. The N I wrote about had a strong voyeuristic streak and shared with a mixed group of coworkers his viewing photos taken by voyeurs on a website. Cue creepy music. I said to him, "Personally, I like sex with real people." (Just to clarify, I meant real people as opposed to people on the internet.) His response? "But these are real people. None of them are paid to pose."
It was illogical comments like this that made my head spin.
And you’re right. Ns are incapable of self deprecating humor, because you have to have a certain understanding of your own behavior (and faults), before you can stand back and poke fun yourself. Jan

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81. Phil - July 21, 2012

Jan,

I think the mouse joke refers to a computer mouse 😉 The ones on a desktop before the optical ones.

Which brings me to another interesting aside. My ex didn’t understand humour at all. I’m not the worlds best teller of jokes, my timing is all out! But my ex would often ask me to ‘explain; jokes from other people. This is a woman with a master’s degree ……. and I often thought she might deliberately have been faking ‘pseudo stupidity’ and really be the one (secretly laughing) at the rest of us?

However, she would probably struggle with Jan’s 8 yr old Dinosaur joke and need (or ask) for an explanation of it. There’s a section on Jan’s site where somebody explains that Narcissists don’t understand ‘context and ‘affect’ which is why they struggle with humour,

I would explain jokes to her (reluctantly) and with embarrassment. Because explaining a joke is like disecting a frog. As soon as you put the scalple through it, it ceases to live. You can study its entrails but when you re-assemble it again, it doesn’t have the same life (or any life) as it had to begin with!

Phil

Phil,
Just wanted to let you know that it’s only because I’m summer vacation that I’m so virtually available. 🙂 I love your analogy comparing explaining a joke to dissecting a frog! On Halycon, under Traits of Narcissists, she lists “lacks of a sense of humor.” That said, Joanna Ashmun (who has since died) does say this is the one trait that others disagreed with her on. I thought Joe had a sense of humor, but as I got to know him better, I realized he had a collection of quips he’d picked up from other people. If I gave him a clever card, he didn’t get it. I do enjoy word play, so I attributed this at the time to English being his second language. I’ve also read that Ns (and this is a rather general observation) would prefer to watch a movie rather than read a book – because a book requires context and nuance, something they just don’t get. I know that with Joe this was true. A book also often requires understanding inference, whereas a movie tends to not make you think so hard. Just a thought. I’m off to watch a movie, as I don’t want to think too hard! Jan

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Phil - July 22, 2012

Hi Jan,

I was thinking about your post and I’ve come up with some interesting insights. I Hope you enjoy! ))
My N was of a high socio/economic class. As such, she carefully ‘crafted’ an appropriate image of herself…always ‘appearing’ to shun certain types of media as being crass i,e, film and television, in preference for the more noble ‘written word’. Reading aside, I think a Narcissists library also exists to ‘display’ books as a visual testimony and statement of oneself…..
My N would even have us beleive, that in eschewing televivision and film in preference for books, she hardly knew anything at all about popular media………….

However, the occasional ‘slip’ might often reveal detaled knowlege, of a sub-plot from a current Television soap drama….. or at least awareness of characters within (if I’m exagerrating myself for effect here) ! 😉
One of my favourite forms of fun (delivered in good humour) was to highlight these ‘minor’ inconsistences,and ‘explode’ as myth that her tastes were refined and her consumption purely esoteric!! 😀 😉

As you can probably guess, anything percieved to be a possible ‘slight’ on a Narcissist’s ego, is invariably met with an appropriate ‘sense of humour failure’!! 😉

Anyone who thinks life with a Narcissist must always be miserable, think again. Be prepared to laugh at your own jokes, rather than ‘share’ them though!)))

If I look at literature, I can see how an N will gravitate to certain material. Out of interest I will make a comparrison between Charles Dickens and Jane Austen (I like both) … a female N will prefer the latter. Here’s my reasoning as to why I think this is the case……….
Charles Dickens was a great Social commentator, a champion of the poor and the underclass . He wrote during times of social hardship and human suffering. He was also a great campaigner for reform, but unless the privations and degredation of the human form ‘float your boat’ in themselves….. I wouldn’t expect anyone to like Dickens. What I deliverately left out of my one sided appraisal of Dicken’s, is his unique satire. Dicken’s can make me laugh so much I start to cry!!! Now if I imagine reading Dicken’s without understanding or appreciating his satire and irony? It’s then becomes more about bleak houses and suffering from days gone by.

I like Austen because of her amazing ‘Wit’ She really knows how to sketch a charachter, and poke fun at it. I think her mischievous humour makes her books very readable even for a man. But If you don’t understand the ‘wit’ in Austen, there’s plenty going on in the plots to interest females who have tendency towards scheming. How to ‘land your quarry’ and win the attentions of Mr Darcy. It’s all about the sport and the fun of the chase for an N.
Jane Austen never wrote a sequal to Pride and Pedjudice called ‘Mr & Mrs Darcy and their life of happy wedded bliss by the fireside’ …. That would be no fun whatsoever.

I found that my N would gravitate towards novels that have plots full of machinations. Very much a reflection of her ‘acting out’ and using people as pawns in a large ‘chess game’ played with people…….

Interesting that the Olympics are starting soon and my N has no interest whatsoever in sport or competition of any form ……… or so it seems? 🙂 🙂

Phil,
I wouldn’t ascribe to much significance to a lack of interest in sports (yes we put an “s” on it. That could be me on any given day. 🙂 ) I did find a link that I thought you might find interesting. I don’t know if you’ve watched Mad Men (Lesley has), but there’s an interesting analysis of why the N continues to look for Ideal Love. Check it out. http://therawness.com/mad-men-season-5-ep-13-the-phantom/ Jan

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Phil - July 22, 2012

Jan,

I’ve just read the article. It’s probably one of he best articles I’ve read on N. I must watch the series. )))

At first I was uncomfortably scratching my neck at the suggestion of a an N searching for ‘idealised love’ …… until what a N’s notion of ‘idealised love’ means to them!))

I think some less ambiguous terms are needed. It’s second nature for me to think of ideal love’ (my idea of it) being about mutual trust, respect, loyalty, acceptance, shared values and a common purpose …..

For a N it’s more about ‘fine tweaking’ the correct amount and type of NS.

This particular observation really hit a chord……

‘She accepted and mirrored his true self rather than his false self, and she accepted his true self in an adult’

And how anyone who accepts the N as they are must be a loser ………

It made me realise how genuine love and acceptance borne from a sense of loalty and love ….. can never be valued or mean anything to a N ……………this is exactly how I felt!!

Phil

Phil,
I’m so glad you found this link helpful. I’m always looking for pieces to the puzzle. I actually know pretty well what the finished puzzle looks like, but as I child I loved reading mysteries, so I tend to want to know the hows and whys. I just went back and read the entire blog post. I hadn’t realized that I was quoted in it! haha 🙂 I was seeing that you can only get “Mad Men in the UK via Sky, which seems to have a lot of people grumbling. Jan

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Phil - July 22, 2012

Jan,

Just one extra point I want to make about the absence of ‘Sports’. I’m not saying that it is a ‘significant’ Narsissist trait to not partake in competitive sports. I was merely pointing out an irony. For somebody who wouldn’t engage in a game of poker, chess, bridge or a fencing match …… something contained in spirit of all the above activities, found an outlet in the gamesmanship of the N’s human relationships and interactions. Just my way of saying that an ‘apparent’ absence of something doesn’t deny its existence.

For ages I’ve been meaning to comment on an old post by Lesley. She talks about passive aggression. My experience of an N is female, of high socioeconomic class. Physical agression or even raised voices were not social or culturally accepted outlets for aggression/anger. My experience is what somebody (I can’t remember where) called the ‘death of a thousand cuts’ …… passive aggression in it’s purest and must subtle forms. I don’t normally condone physical violence, but a knee in the groin is a thousant times more humane than the above!! 😀

Phil

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82. Phil - July 22, 2012

Lesley,

In reply to your post on my comments about Narcissists being contagions, my suggestion being that Narcissists are likely to cause a ‘breakdown of morals’?

I think it depends on the person involved with a Narcissist!

You are able to draw upon your reserves of ‘moral courage’ and inner strength. You are successfully turning a ‘potentially’ negative experience into something which has increased your sense of self and humanity.

You are turning anger into pity, moving forward without feelings of hatred which is good advice for anyone!

That you possess such a ‘robust’ character to ‘weather the storm’ from having had contact with a Narcissist, is fortunate.

I will qualify my remark and stand by them, from the position that if a person is less than ‘robust’ or weakeened in character. The contagion of a Narcissist may have a detrimental effect on that person.

My contact with a Narcissist occured at a time when I was already ‘dissolutioned’ with life, my faith in human nature already much weakened. Hence the effects of a Narcissist were more likely to be negative than positive.

Phil

Lesley/Phil,
I can’t think of any contact with a Narcissist that is positive. I do think that those of us with a robust (love that word!) sense of self esteem have the potential to recover more quickly. I do have a post planned as to how narcissists tend to target those who are most vulnerable. I know I was at a low point at the time, so I overlooked obvious red flags. Still, it was several years until I could get past what had transpired. It’s because I like to think of myself as a strong person, that I was left reeling from feeling as though all of my defenses had been breeched. And I’d allowed this to happen! I can definitely see how those less robust to begin with are even more traumatized by the callous cruelty. Jan

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83. Lesley - July 22, 2012

Jan/ Phil,
Just wanted to say that I am still recovering from my ex and indeed
dealing with new revelations about his lies even today.(Jan, I know you know my story…)
It’s true my sense of self esteem kicked in and saved me both in enabling me to confront his behaviour( I was then discarded a week later),and in the process of recovery.
I recall being unable to go to work because of the shock and then weeping continuously but my esteem did eventually take over.
I am not sure of the word ‘robust’, perhaps I have learned to be the reed rather than the oak tree when times are tough.The oak will break depending on the force of the storm,the reed has capacity to bend. My tool in this is to face reality at all times.
Practically, I also had proof of his somatic narc behaviour in terms of his infidelity. This came from others as well as written proof.
I called him on it,the mask came off,he discarded.
Many other people never get this full proof or closure.There has already been discussion on this site about Narc pairings/couples and I think that another factor in being unable to move on is the narc’s victim’s capacity to deny what is actually happening/has happened.This is wholly understandable. It is shocking…but it is so important to face the reality and feel the anger and extreme pain.
The boil must be lanced and the wound cauterised.
Am I over my ex Phil? No, not yet.Do I hope to be… yes.
My wound has been cauterised,but everyday I know it is still there.
I just wanted to add that both my sense of esteem and capacity to ‘weather the storm’ have been hard fought for and developed through no little adversity? I hoped it would alight on my shoulders like a little blue bird(LOL)…but darn, I had to go out for forty odd years and find it for myself!!
ps. Phil, I also laugh out loud at Austen,just about to remind myself of that and read the first chapter or so of ‘Persuasion’…the description of the elderly peacock of Anne Eliot’s father cracks me up every time. He definitely displayed a few Narc Traits…

Light Shine,
Les

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Phil - July 22, 2012

Hi Les,

I think to reman ‘long-term’ in a relationship with an N, a person is either self-abasing by nature, or ‘using’ the N in an equally heartless way.
I would argue that both of the above are ‘victim free crimes’ and the definition of ‘long term’ is about 8 months on average! 😉 😀

Undoubtedly there are victims though, and a naturally trusting or empathic person may fall into the role of unwilling victim, for a while.

You mention a ‘victim’s capacity to deny what is actually happening/has happened.’
A Narc does such a good job of bending their own reality. With sufficient exposure an otherwise ‘clear thinking’ partner will lose some of their own grip on reality.

I think the best way to deal with some problems is to have to full and complete understanding of them. Then the power to overcome them will hopefully follow.

An N is an inordinate waste of time and energy, we all agree on that. Emotional or otherwise.
And whilst you are still ‘making sense’ afterwards, an N has already moved onto their next ‘f*** up’ with a breathtaking speed and ease!) Unfortunate but true……..

Although, you probably now undertand the workings of an N’s mind inside out? You can probably accurately predict what thoughts they haven’t even had yet,…. the who, what when, where, why and how of everything they are about to do in the future?! Everything in their nature is just so predictably ‘boring’ for me! 😀

And here is where you will become empowered while they are still blinkered. There is nothing that they can possibly do, that will be original or a surprise to you. How much does an N know about you, or anyone apart from themselves? And they don’t even know themselves!!!! 😀

One thing I have learned (paradoxically) is how to empathise with a person who can’t empathise …… which is something of a mental feat which can’t be done in reverse! 😀
Always have ‘one up’ on them! 😉

Best of luck Les and sorry for implying that you had a naturally steely and robust nature!!))

Phil/Lesley,
For some reason, my “Edit” feature which I use to “comment” on comments was off. I don’t like using the Reply feature as then my face appears on every one. 😀 Too much of a good thing? LOL Anyways, I’ve decided that it IS better to be a reed than an oak, as it leaves you more flexible in life. (I think of the word “robust” as something full of life BTW.) I think you’ve both done an excellent job of articulating how ultimately your anger must turn to acceptance (just as in stages of grief). I believe that’s where the “Scorpion and the Frog” story comes in, Phil. It’s just their nature and that’s how they’ll always be. I do know some people who are not Ns who also invariably “shoot themselves in the foot” and repeatedly sabatoge relationships and careers. A therapist might be able to help them see why they do this, but this is too interwoven into the Ns personality to be sorted out. Jan

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84. Phil - July 25, 2012

Jan,

I think the Scorpion and frog analogy does a good job of explaining what happened, how and why it happened and the inevitable outcome.

If you think just a little bit harder about the story, the frog is compromising in his nature, isn’t he? In giving the Scorpion a chance and the benefit of the doubt, he is something of a reed!
And the Scorpion is uncompromising in his nature, so he is Robust in a way, isn’t he?

I agree that ‘Robust’ implies a steadfast unwillingness to compromise or change. I don’t like some of the connotations implied by it.

I think the moral of the story (if there is one) ……. is by all means be a reed and bend according to your nature (if that is your nature)……but if you meet another Scorpion, you have to be as robust and uncompromising as he is, go against your nature, refuse to help or get involved!! 😀

Phil,
I’m having problems accessing my email ATM and am feeling very un-reed like. :X I think the Frog is like the rest of us – he’s basically a helpful fellow who weighs the pros and cons and proceeds convinced that the Scorpion wouldn’t actually sting him because he would die too. And as for the word “robust” (its origin IS tied in with oaks) – its synonyms are sturdy, strong, and (my favorite) lusty. In the computer industry, a “robust” program is one that will function well even under stress. Now I’m off to create a more robust password. Jan

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85. Phil - July 25, 2012

Jan,

Have you ever seen anything like an N sustaining a long term (same sex) close friendship with another N?

All the literature suggests an N isn’t capable of having real friends, which is understandable. And the dynamics of two N’s together in a friendship seems problematic…..

Has anyone seen an N have a real or close friendship with another N?
Discount the N & Co dependant relationships or superficial friendhips.
I mean an N being in an almost equal partnership of friendship with another N?

Phil

Phil,
I doubt two Ns could both fit their gigantic false egos into the same room. 🙂 It’s interesting because the Ns I know either befriend those they view as beneath them (thus giving them a feeling of superiority) or those above them who they, for lack of a better term, suck up to and hope to please thus earning a pat on the head. Since Ns have no genuine friends, the term “befriend” rings hollow. They might coexist with another N, but the relationship would only continue because neither cares enough to make demands on the other. Sort of like roommates passing in the night.
One more thing, my dear friend Catherine Sherman (on my blogroll) knows a N whose been married to another person with strong N traits. She brought up the “binary star” analogy, which I found interesting. I’m excerpting a bit off Wikipedia. I’m sure Jimmy Wales won’t mind. 🙂

The term binary was first used in this context by Sir William Herschel in 1802,[1] when he wrote:[2]
“If, on the contrary, two stars should really be situated very near each other, and at the same time so far insulated as not to be materially affected by the attractions of neighbouring stars, they will then compose a separate system, and remain united by the bond of their own mutual gravitation towards each other. This should be called a real double star; and any two stars that are thus mutually connected, form the binary sidereal system which we are now to consider.”

The upshot is that binary stars are bound by a common mass/massive ego? LOL
Jan

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86. Phil - July 26, 2012

That’s a beautiful analogly Jan, I must read the blogroll also.

I wasn’t thinking of the relationship between two N’s in terms of cooperative celestial beings, I was more thinking of two vipers sharing the same pit, or a coven of two witches in a pact! 😉 The former is an aspect of the friendship, as long as they mutually support the other’s brightness …… the balance between the two must be evenly matched in my opinion, and in combining brightness be of mutual benefit to both. Needless to say one must never detract from the other…

What I was considering, is that two N’s who are mutually cooperative and supportive, can uphold each other’s lies. Especially at the end of a Narcissitic cycle, before new Narcissistic sources are available.
An objective friend may not be a good shoulder for an N to cry on, if you think about it?
After the N has been abandoned, the last thing an N needs to hear is the possibility that said partner become dissolutioned and alienated as result of N’s actions …….
A good N friend of an N, can assure the N of their entitlement…. and how the N wasn’t to blame? Given that an N probably lose partners every 6 – 12 months and must seach for new Narcissistic supply. Two N friends could offer this mutual support for each other on a regular basis……….
What a beautiful friendship?

Phil

I rolled out of bed quite late this morning and saw that you and Lesley had been chatting up a storm. Don’t you have the Olympics to prepare for? LOL 🙂 The N I know would have been content to “lick his wounds” with someone he hardly knew – someone who would listen to his BS and nod their head that he was indeed in the right. On Halcyon, Joanna says it’s possible to have a long-term relationship with a N as long as you rarely see them. As I mentioned, I viewed myself as Joe’s safe port in the storm. But anyone can play that role as long as they don’t ask too many questions and keep reflecting back to the N that false vision of themselves. This is what Secondary Supply is for – to see them through the lean times. Jan

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87. Phil - July 26, 2012

P.S>
One last peice of my puzzle, I’m trying to understand the relationship between a Narcissist and shame? I would describe my experience of N as being ‘shameless’ in normal descriptive terms. I’ve read about an N being able to by-pass shame. It seems to be component of the root causes of Narcissism.
You my have read this article which covers some aspects of shame.

Anatomy of Narcissism v1.0 (iii) – Addiction and Audience

Phil,
When I read Philsphil(osophy), for a moment I thought it was your blog! But it was missing the requisite “u” in behavior. :O
My understand is that the one emotion that Ns do feel is shame, since they were made to never feel good enough or worthy of love/attention.The blog you just provided a link to posited that they’ve internalized the “shaming parent” but not the “soothing parent.” (I’m going by memory here, so I could have that worded incorrectly.) That ingrained shame is different from behaving in a shameless manner, in which one flouts basic rules of socially accepted behavior. I’ll have to read more. Jan

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88. Lesley - July 26, 2012

Thanks for that link Phil,covers a wealth of articles.
My tuppenny’s worth on friendship is yes my Narc had friends but not as I would have described friendship.They were in the main long term macho acquaintances. He had no female friendships and could not perceive that this was possible.
He was surprisingly loyal to these acquaintances,especially if they were’doing well’ materially in a business sense. He almost acquired or confirmed his own status by knowing them?
In addition this group frequently covered for one another to their girlfriends and wives…and had been doing so for years permitting infidelity and lies to take place.
They were amoral in this aspect. Indeed, I had never quite experienced a group of people who saw it as’the norm’ to behave like this.Cultured on outside…deceitful on the inside.
Out of this group there were two men whom my ex gravitated towards and who I suspect also had Narc traits.They had a common language regarding women and saw women in a comparmentalised way.Women who were not attractive to them were referred to as bags of bones,old corpses,having rictus grins,looking like they had been’dug up’.
Women who were attractive to them were referred to as cars ‘roaring fastpieces,taking her for a spin,she’s as reliable as a volkswagen,like being behind the wheel of a Maserati etc etc etc.
When I was introduced to this group of people…it became clear to me that I would not be forming any lasting friendships(lol!!!),for my ex however it was crucially important that I performed as expected when we socialised with them.This meant dressing up,invariably wearing high heels,bigging up my own career,home,area I came from..in short joining him in his facade.
You’ve guessed it. I tried ..then questioned why I should have to do this,then…in his eyes I failed. I personally went from finding the situation humourous to unbearable.
You mentioned shame as well Phil. I never experienced much shame from my ex. He always made sense of any situation as of him being’wronged’ or misunderstood so hence why should he be shamed.??
I agree entirely with the Narc looking for support from others who share same traits or uphold his mask. They maintain the facade of each other. I know that when I suffered my discard my ex described me to his friends as having ‘crashed the jaguar and it can’t be undone’
Objectification of a human being is also a way to avoid shame?
Interesting musings and will revisit the link you left,
Light Shine
Les

Les,
With your “Light Shine” I expect you to carry that torch up to start the Olympic games. I’ll look for you in the crowd. 🙂 This does sound like an unsavory lot of men who did in fact objectify women and seem to have tried to impress one another, but not with their stellar character traits or humanitarian deeds. It’s been said that an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than you do. So I do think Ns often surround themselves with people who behave in a similar fashion or at least tolerate their bad behavior. The false self they concocted as children is designed to hide their deep-rooted shame. It does an excellent job – better than Kevlar. So that’s why you don’t see them showing genuine emotion when confronted with something they’ve said or done. Jan

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89. Phil - July 26, 2012

Lesley,

Thanks for the insight about ‘objectification’ ……. I haven’t explored this possibility and I haven’t read anything anywhere else. So I would say that it is original thought, I can see in some ways how this concept may play a part in the N’s bypass shame mode.

I’m struggling here. My N appears to have been utterly SHAMELESS in past conduct and feels no real embarrassment or remorse. Occasional references to circumstances and outside factors are cited as mitigating reasons some of the time…..but this ability to engage in actions/activities/relationships in a shame free way both at the time or afterwards is still puzzling for me?

I’m struggling because I don’t understand how N pulls it off in their mind? i’m trying my hardest to empathise with a being who has an entirely different psychological makeup to my own, granted.
But however hard I try, it still seems the most amazing feat of cognitive deceit, the bypass shame ability of the Narc!)))

As an example, my N was of a very high socioeconmic class. Highly educated (Masters degree) and intelligent (in tems of IQ, if not social intelligence) and cultured. When querying the subject of a previous romantic involvement with a male, who didn’t have the temporal abilities to pass 3 GCSE’s (Jan, that means somebody who didn’t pass their high school diploma) …….
I would expect to feel some shame in having once engaged in such a relationship? Is somebody so cheap and desperate that they are willing to throw their reputation in the gutter? ….. I would be embarrassed and ashamed to admit to such a disparity between partners. N explained her involvement in this relationship, in terms of the particular male partner being the only suitor at the time!!! 😀

I could apply different interpretations. We could say it was negative Narcissistic supply? If people ask the question why is or was N involved with this particular male? In the words of Oscar Wilde ……. ‘There is only one thing worse than being talked about, not being talked about!’ ……. This quote sums a Narcissist up quite well for me!)) And there may be some element of explanation in these sentiments with regard to above…

But maybe Lesley has a point ………… if you objectify everything ……… all you are doing is moving around props ………. props are inanimate ………. why any shame about something so inanimate )))

Thanks Lesley )))

Phil
I agree with Lesley in that when a N “needs” NS, they’re not in the position to look for “quality.” Besides, if someone is less than, you can use that against them down the line. When people are objects, there is no shame in moving them around like pawns or tossing them out with the rubbish. As I mentioned earlier, the N’s False Self was constructed as a response to feelings of shame as a child. They’ve very insulated indeed against any emotion that might threaten this construct. Jan

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90. Phil - July 26, 2012

P.S> Another example of ‘shame bypass mode’ at work is the N’s affinity for exibitionism ……..
(I’ll assume that my readers don’t have a propensity for exhibitionism) And I personally think everyone is entitled to their own fettish and fantasy as long as it doesn’t impeach upon the rights of others.

But from my own standpoint and viewpoint, a sense of shame and embarrassment, generally keeps me from standing naked at an open bedroom window where unsuspecting neighbours might suffer the sight of my naked form.
Aesthetically pleasing or otherwise, it seems to be a predilection of the Narc to be ‘observed’ and have a tendancy towards exhibitionism?

I don’t have issues with my own body, but I don’t feel the need to display it openly for gratification. It’s not shame of myself that prevents me from indulging in exhibitionism ……… but somehow I think it would be ‘unfair’ for me to embarrass the little old lady who lives opposite!! And here is my sense of shame! 😉

So what is the Narc doing? I wonder if they have bypassed shame ……. or shame itself is a ‘kick’??

Phil

Exhibitionists derive a sexual thrill from such exposure (for lack of a better word!). It’s all about them. Instead of feeling as though they’re embarrassing themselves, they feel all those eyes on them are a form of NS and that provides a rush. They don’t factor in the yuck factor. Jan

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91. Lesley - July 26, 2012

I kind of think they see others as puppets and they are the master puppeteer and are able to set the stage or change the action at will.
You exist to please them and allow them to continue to put on the show. As long as you comply you are part of the company?
When you talk about a Narc who was well educated etc Phil gravitating towards someone who was not or not at the same perceived societal level…yes I think this is possible and even likely.
But…it depends what the Narc wanted them for?
If the Narc wanted them for sex or companionship or laughs or company….in the moment so to speak,it would not matter what their background was,just that they could fulfill a passing need? A somatic Narc is not fussy about who he sleeps with. They may even get off on a liaison that is deviant/out of the norm/clandestine.
However,if the Narc wants someone to be ‘main supply’ even for a while this is where the checklist comes in….as main supply to a Narc you have to affirm his status. You are the main mirror,the one he looks in most of all.
The others are just part reflections,angles if you will?
I was the main supply for just short of two years,defined as his partner because I ticked the boxes on his checklist. I was also show- ponied around as this, my qualifications quoted, jobs I had done mentioned… To his workmates,family etc I was the acceptable face?
Yet,he had his’angled’ mirrors too in the form of his passing infidelities,his online scouting for other angled mirrors.
All mirrors show him or parts of him.
They key for me to understanding a Narc is that it is perfectly acceptable for them to look in several mirrors at the same time- in fact, my ex only felt in control if he did so.
For most of us this is morally wrong. For a Narc motivated by sex and excess and status it is a way of life that works for them.
Yes…it is incomprehensible and shocking.

Les,
I’ve heard the puppeteer pulling the strings analogy before and it’s an apt one. They’re in charge and they’ll manipulate the show. Another woman (I heard this years ago on a forum) compared the N to a traveling theatrical troupe (of one). He’d arrive in town and set up his stage. Let the show begin! When the audience tired of his behavior, and someone dared to boo, he folded up his little stage and moved on. This was true of Joe and several other Ns I knew. Once people in their “territory” see through them, they must move on to secure fresh supply.
I love your use of the term “show-ponied about” though no doubt that was painful. When they can be seen with someone lovely on their arm, it reflects well on them. But the somatic Ns I’ve known are never satisfied with one person. They seem to be most comfortable juggling multiple people/potential sources of NS. When called on their infidelities,they “explain” but never “apologize.” It’s very twisted logic indeed. Jan

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Donna - July 26, 2012

Hello to all, I took a break for a few days and it did me some real good as far as getting some things taken care of and behind me on my to do list, and that feels good.

Personally Chris, I don’t think it matters or not or if he would even care if you called them a N, primarily because it is all about them and they probably wear the title proudly if you know what I mean. My experience is that they love to yank chains and pull the puppet strings, if you allow them to do so. As far as the wife is concerned you can tell her what you know but it doesn’t mean she will listen. Being supportive and helping her find help is basically all you can do to find safety for herself and a small child; from my point of view.

Lesley, my personal revelation today is that they are: “Still very immature young chidren/preteens stuck in adult bodies” who will do what ever they can to get their own way or else. As adults some of them can become dangerous and destructive.

Take Care to all my Friends!!!!!
Donna

Donna,
Great to hear from you as we all have our unique experiences and perspectives to offer. During the school year, what I wouldn’t give for a few days off to catch up on my “real” life. Yet with all the time in the world over the summer, I’m moving rather slow. I need to locate a sloth emoticon. 🙂 Jan

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Phil - July 27, 2012

Les,

Thanks for the insight, I think you’ve helped clarify this for me. The N is quite heedless in who they are willing to use as NS at any particular time for whatever purpose.
Then their ‘bypass shame’ ability becomes very noticeable, Whilst I personally coudn’t be as ‘shameless’ as a Narc, fearing the potential embarrassment it would cause to my own sense of self worth or pride ……. the Narc is ever the pragmatist and will use whoever at any given time ‘needs must’ ))
And as you beautifully point out the distinctions between primary sources and ‘other mirrors’ ………there’s room for everyone to play some or other part as a prop.

Jan’s link earler in the blog, did a tremendous amount to explain the seemingly incomprehensibe nature of a Narcs choice of primary supply and what constitutes an idealised NS.

I immediately thought of the typical ‘pushy parent Narcissist’ thrusting her darling daughter child prodigy on stage. Delighting at the praise received from her daughters talents (undoubtedly inherited from an nurtured by mother, of course) ….. Until said child prodigy receives praise in her own right, and the significance of mummy is eclipsed. Then the Mother raging at darling daughter ‘You’re getting far too big for your boots miss, just remember who are only where you are because of me!’ 😀 😀
Classic how everyones self esteem and part is managed to give just the right amount of NS to the Narc …… 😀

Phil

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92. Chris - July 26, 2012

Hello and thank you for this blog and the comments! I find myself nodding and also was amazed at Phil’s analogy regarding the nine year old who expects her daddy to buy her the ice cream! I have been researching many of the narc’s behaviors and attributes that we are dealing including “are narcs cheap?” as he has never paid for anything (socially) as far as we can tell..not once! His wife always pays (if we were not the ones paying). Now I’ve come to realize that his presence is his contribution and we should all feel damn glad to bask in it (Oh brother).

I would write the details of our “adventure” with this psycho, but I am somewhat paranoid and fear he may come across this and make our lives more uncomfortable – but I realize chances are small because I’m sure he doesn’t see himself as a narc. I wonder if his wife does, though. She definitely comes across as an narc extension and enables him.

I believe I read here that when a narc. is confronted w/being told he is a narc., the experience has been that more often than not, they go away.

I’ve been doing research trying to find out more about if you should tell a narc he is a narc, but seem to generally find comments like, it won’t do any good, or that things could actually become worse.

(I’ve been reading Vankin’s book as well as one called “Why is it Always about you?” plus doing a lot of online searches.)

For now we are ignoring him (from what I’ve read this is frequently recommended) but eventually we are going to have to confront legal issues with him.

So my questions are: If I have contact with this person again and if he is abusive, should I tell him I think he is a narcissist?

Jan, I think you said you confronted Joe, but did you actually use the word narcissist? And if so, what was his reaction?

Anyone else here who has told the N that they believe he/she is an N, how did you do it and how did they react at that moment and from then on? (He has already raged on one of us….I almost hope he rages on me but I would like to have input on my best response.)

Thanks for all your help!

Oh, also, if the opportunity arises..for instance if the wife is having a hard time with him and tells me about it (again), should I tell her what I suspect? That he is an N? And that she should do research on it?

They have a small child who I wonder is already screwed up by this nut.

Chris,
When you said “legal issues” the knot in my stomach tightened. Don’t know what that’s about, but I’d tread lightly for now.
1) Regarding Ns being cheap. On Halcyon (on my blogroll) she lists that as one of their personality traits. Yes, you should just be grateful that you were allowed to be in their presence. LOL
2) One day Joe was talking about having children. Actually he came in while I was talking with another woman and asked what the best age was for a woman to have a child. It was as though he needed to set his sites on the most “viable” candidates. (This said, five years later he has never married or been in a relationship.) When my friend left, I told Joe I didn’t think he was well suited to be a father because he was so “self centered.” His response was “But lots of artists are self centered!” End of conversation.

After the D&D and school was out, I wrote him a note telling him I thought he was a narcissist. I included Sam Vaknin’s book (with sections I highlighted that were oh-so Joe) and left these on his doorstep. I was still, unfortunately, in a “I can save this person” mode.
When I saw him three months later he said, “Leave it to you to think I have something that’s incurable!” He never asked why I’d come to this conclusion. But, he’d been dealt a mortal blow and distanced himself from virtually everyone who was my friend. I believe he was afraid that they “knew.” He switched schools the next year (his hours had been severely cut, so he had other reasons to make this move as well).

So, telling a N that they are a N will bounce off them like a bullet on Kevlar (my second reference Kevlar in one day!) YOU are the one with the problem.

In regards to his wife, that’s a double-edged sword. I suppose if she came crying to you, you could mention that you were talking to someone the other day whose husband had NPD, and a lot of the things they told you sounded rather similar. I have a friend who only realized her husband was NPD after her cousin described his horrible marriage with his wife and said their therapist had told him she was a narcissist. My friend was looking for answers, so she did the research. That said, sometimes the people who complain the most about a situation are the last to leave the sinking ship. Denial is a strong thing.

I don’t like to “give advice,” as I don’t have the credentials or know enough about what’s going on in your situation. My only intention is to give you some feedback based on my experience for what that’s worth.

Donna, in the comment that precedes yours, has also weighed in. Second and third opinions are always welcome. 🙂 Jan

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93. Phil - July 26, 2012

Hi All,

I’m loving this discussion ))) To Chis in particular but to everyone. Let’s be honest, a Narc has at some point seriously p*ssed us all off in a big way!! Anger is natural and so is the need for retaliation in many of us. But always remember, everything in the Narcs mind is twisted and your retalliations (even revealing to a Narc he is a Narc) could be twisted back into negative supply.

So to keep on Jan’s theme, how does one craft an armour plated missile to penetrate the Narcs Kevlar?

Before I even read about any of this, I seemed to have somehow intuitively crafted a perfect Narcissistic injury/insult on my ex. (I’ll tell you about my parting shots later)
But, had I made any more additional remarks to the ‘select’ ones I had already made, I may potentially have undone the succesful narcissist wounding injury I had inflicted.

Always remember, a Narc needs to validate themselves. They need an audience and attention to know they are of consequence and exist.

First off, if anyone cares to write 28 chapters to a Narc on their personality flaws, that’s supply in itself. However damning or derogatory your content, you’ve validated the Narc’s existence and proved they are worthy of 28 chapters. A Narc will love this, it’s negative supply. To the N people are naturally envious and ‘out to do harm’ through malice, it’s the Narcs perception of things. Of course the Narc feels worthy of 28 chapters of attention, but will twist it and interpret how it best suits their needs. It’s ‘you’ who has the problem in the Narc’s mind afterall…….but thanks nonetheless for writing 28 chapters, it validates my exisstence and inflates my sense of worth, he thinks))

We all know that a Narc has an inflated fase self and tries his best to validate it using an audience. As a result, the Narc is woefully inept in terms of social intelligence, he hasn’t tkaen enough time or given enough insight into other peoples real perceptions………..

Where I’m going with this, is that as you know how ‘inflated and false’ the Narcs ego is ………. so do other people who interact with the Narc, you’re probably not the only one to notice.
As the Narc crafts this blinkered perception of himself, he hasn’t taken into account how many other people see through the vaneer or what they really think about him? 😉

My N was female, I wanted to avoid anything that would present her as some type of ‘femme fatale’. That’s far too glamourous and the N will love it as Negative supply.

I skillfully pointed out to my N (and this was true) that in the perceptions of others, she was ‘pathetic’, ‘pitiful’, ‘ridiculous, and so hideous that she was frequently mocked at behind her back ……’ generally thought of as emotionally crippled attention seeking child and of ‘NO CONSEQUENCE’

Ouch …………….!!!

I’m glad that I didn’t follow up with chapters concerneing the real harm she had caused ………. that would have validated her existence and sense of worth, even if negative…….

To slight an N, you need to be brief enough to show that you don’t care and that they don’t matter to anyone )))

Phil

As they say in the film business, “There’s no such thing as bad publicity.” With that in mind, supply is attention – whether it’s positive or negative is of little consequence to the N. In that vein love and anger are equal as they’re both strong emotions. Like I said, it’s indifference that takes its toll.
Also, Phil, I had a similar conversation with Joe. Many of his colleagues found him to be, for lack of a letter word – inept. Some even found him laughable and they too talked behind his back. In my effort to “help” Joe, I told him the negative effect he had on many people. Although he denied this was true, I knew I’d hit a nerve. He vanished without a trace. Jan

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94. Phil - July 27, 2012

It’s so true Jan,

I hadn’t realised how much of a nerve I pulled at the time. 😉

The N will vanish in a cloud of smoke and find new sources of NS to re-inflate and validate their false self.

Had I made indictments of the N that showed she was of consequence (albeit in negative ways). That would have been ‘There’s no such thing as bad publicity’,or ‘The onlly thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about’.
The N will turn any form of attention into a positive and think, “at least I know I exist and I matter” ))

I put her face to face with her real self. But worse still, I highlighted that her illusions didn’t convince others either! 😀 Then she was face to face with the emotionally crippled, shame and guilt ridden inadequate child. Whose mirrors erected to reflect on the ‘grandiosity of her false self ……….. had been shattered!!!

Jan, do you think I could be a psycopath?? 😉 😀

Phil,
Well, if you are, you’ve got plenty of company. Moi included. When we’ve been injured so, sometimes you end up fighting fire with fire. When I told Joe some of the things I heard people say about him (all of them true), I’d hoped that he’d realize that I had his best interests at heart, I was his one true friend who accepted him for who he really was. I could help mend him. Boy, that was the final nail in the coffin!
Jan

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Phil - July 27, 2012

lolol
This was exactly my mistake Jan))
I saw the emotionally wounded, shame ridden, guilt ridden little girl sobbing with inadequacy and feelings of emptiness and worthlessness ……….
I was a true genuine friend. It’s as though I said, I can see who you are (your true self) and so what …… nobody is ‘perfect’ and I’ll accept you as you really are with all your faults!! 😀
A Narc needs to embellesh their false self. By being genuine and accepting their true self, you are killing them with kindness. They need to be around false people who will reflect their false self))
As you say, if you accept a Narc in the true sprit of friendship or love, in their eyes you must be a ”’loser’ to have accepted the Narc s they really are, a person who they themselves loathe

Phil

Exactly! They don’t want you to see what’s beneath the mask. Once you do, you’re history. Jan

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95. Phil - July 27, 2012

Hi All,

A while ago I was contemplating the function of the ‘repetition compulsion’ in the Narc. We all see the same tired old ‘script’ of a Narc repeated time and time over…… yes, it’s highly predictable and nothing new.

But much earlier in the blog I was questioning the true purpose of ‘repetition compulsion’ and exploring whether or not the Narc is trying to correct and ‘get something right’, or whether the Narc has has some fatalistic urge to replay an old tragedy, a form of self fulfilling macabre gratification and self harm, if you like??

The best wisdom I came accross was that the N Idealises. That is the N has a notion of and projects the ideal (but not real) image of this ideal onto a partner. The primary source of NS is now the perfect shiny new mirror, reflecting back the necessary and required ‘ideal’ type of Narcissitic supply. (For a while)
Inevitably, this ‘idealisation’ and projection onto a primary source of Narcissitic supply is always doomed to fail. The real person never was as ‘ideal’ as the narc required (in whatever way) …. and the Narc becomes dissolutioned with the primary supply until abandonment is forced… (more often than not the Narc is abandoned) its all so inevitable and also reasonable explanation of what is happenening……….

I was doing some thinking and may have an alternate explanation (or another dimension) into the ‘repetition compulsion’ that could make some logical sense, rather than the senseless fatalism it appears to be.

I outlined the case study of ‘Emily’ some time ago. I don’t want to repeat it at length, but in a nutshell.
Emily was very close to daddy. Parents have acrimonious split, daddy has found a better partner and family. Emily is abandoned and rejected by daddy. Emily feels guilt, shame, inadequacy, blames self. This situation seems inconprehensibly unfair for Emily, she searches herself for reasons and feels worthless and not in control. Worse still, daddy mocks and undermines her sense of worth, invalidates his previous love for her… says he never wanted her (even though she was once daddy’s girl ) etc etc etc….Emily will always feel inadequate and perhaps blame herself for the situation, she now has a very low sense of self worth (and a mistrust of men)……Emily delevlops Narcissism.(understandably)

As an adult Emily repeats numerous failed short term relationships with the opposite sex, nothing new here!

At a certain age where her firends are now all becoming married and having families (as is a biological neccessity to do so in women, if they are to do so at all) ………..Emily also ‘toys’ with the idea and possibility of having a partner and family of her own. There is some element of ‘envy’ of her friends her, but by and large Emily’s existence has always centred on herself (as does every Narc’s) ……………..
So the notion of being responsible for dependants is something of a bind and scare for Emily, it would be a sacrifice and shock to the system….. but necessary if she is to be like her peers and understake motherhood as a future purpose in life.
Interestingly, the notions of motherhood are explored from the perspective of being a ‘soccer mom’ (for Jan) or a ‘Yummy mummy’ for Les. That is, how children can be extentions of and accessories of self, whilst remaining the centre of focus in ones own world? 😉
Yes it’s a bind having to take brats to soccer and ballet, but I will be as glamourous and admired in mid life as I was in my youth )))

Emily, in her more candid moments. Expressed her deep fear that a husband’partner would not abandon the family and be a good parent. The fear of a partner abandoning was her ‘worst fear’ in the undertking of finding one to start a family with.

As I read somewhere else. The same way in which the children are not put there as people in their own right but as extentions and accessories. The father is probably not thought of as father to the children (who may abandon) but as a surrogate father to Emily……..
And moreso than fearing for the childrens welfare ……. it is her own fear of abandonment by her surrogate father that causes her the most stress and fear 😉

What I started to think was this. When Emily’s dad abondened and rejected her, she was a little girl. She hadn’t committed any sins and for no reason she was punnished, betrayed and abandoned …………

How will she know that a man isn’t going to do this to her again?
What if she drives and TESTS a person to the limits? Do everything in your power to make him abandon you …… if he’s still there after the abuse, you’re pretty safe!!!
Maybe that’s part of it??
What do you think???

Phil,
From my experience, those who’ve been abandoned, whether it be physically or emotionally, as children, often grow up to be adults who do indeed fear abandonment in their relationships. Many test their partner to see if they are likely to run. This is understandable. Yes, someone with childhood abandonment issues could/would/SHOULD be gun-shy (that’s so US) about relationships, but could work through this fear with a reliable partner and a therapist.
Those with Borderline Personality Disorder fear abandonment most of all. They actually treat their friends/partners horribly to hasten the abandonment they “know in their bones” is inevitable. I knew it!
With Ns, their fear of abandonment drives them to abandon their partner first thus turning the tables. Anyone who continues to put up with their abuse and stay is actually deemed LESS WORTHY and becomes Secondary Supply. Jan

Phil

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96. Lesley - July 27, 2012

The fear of abandonment viewpoint holds water for me Phil when you describe the childhood situation that Emily went through but I think the problem with Narcs is that they never,ever feel safe. Therefore the testing a person to the limits will just go on and on and on. I noticed that my ex would act up and denigrate after we had been close or had a lovely day together…again testing. Then he would go back to being Prince Charming….again and again.Draining.
They hear you saying you love them,but they don’t believe it. If you think about it ,we need to feel we are worthy of love before we can accept it? Their bucket of self worth can never be filled because it empties out as soon as you try to fill it?
Yet on a positive side not all people who have some form of separation in childhood or early trauma turn out to be Narcs?
My ex’s father had some form of mental illness which could never be talked about. He was deeply ashamed of even the taint of mental illness.
The description of his D’s behaviour-(he lost the family business through gambling,excessive drinking, rage then depression)-this description may fit bi polar for his father,not sure?
His two siblings had both suffered from severe depression and my ex would describe his mother as a living saint….yet he both distrusted women profoundly and objectified them.
I used to think he must be angry at his Dad but his need to denigrate women,his need to dominate them and his rage seemed to suggest he was angry at his Mum?
To be honest, just thinking out loud here.. I still can’t fathom that out.
I was talking this over with a girlfriend a few days ago and we decided it may just be unfathomable. As she said to me
‘Would you recognise it in a partner again?
My reply,
‘Absolutely.’ Maybe that has to be enough…

Lesley,
Yes, some things are unfathomable. You can analyze something to death and ultimately still ever know exactly why. And you’re right in that Ns never feel entirely safe. I believe that “feeling safe” often takes us back to childhood when our parents were our protectors who seemed all powerful. Jan

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Phil - July 27, 2012

Hi Lesley,

I just want to add, that I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis on the possibility of an N wishing to test something for strength. The basis of my argument was that the N is trying to test a relationship for strength, perhaps? As Lesley points out, the N will continually and unremittingly ‘test’ a relationship until the point at which is breaks. Whether or not it ‘broke’ after a few minor knocks or continual and sustained abuse until it breaks. All relationships will be broken, it’s academic whether or not one partticular partner was more resilient and tolerant than the other…. they were all forced to abandon ship eventually)))

Thanks again for clearing the mist Lesley! )))

Phil

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Donna - July 27, 2012

Lesley, I can remember very well my ex N friend telling me about his parents, he seemed to have worship his mother and said she was very close to him when he was young. He also let me know that his mom smoked and did every thing he to get her to stop, but she didn’t listen to him and she died from a stroke 11days after his 14th birthday. He also stated that his mother suggested that his father may have been cheating on her with some woman down the street from their home. He didn’t get along well with his father at all and he described his only sister as a slut who just brought so much disgrace to the family. He indicated when his mother died his father cried for days and he didn’t feel that grown men should cry. He even told me that he started having sex at the age of 16 with an older woman who taught him everything he needed to know about the female body.

He graduated from high school and immediately joined the army to get away from his Dad. He joined under a buddy system with his best high school friend and went to Vietnam and went AWOL two weeks after landing in Vietnam. He was caught and returned to his unit. His friend is a long time friend of mine and he said that he has never been the same since coming back from Nam. When he returned home he want to college and received a degree in Human Behavioral Science.

He stared buying real estate property because he couldn’t get along with anyone on regular jobs. He has been in Property Management since he was 28 years old. He has never been married but has two children, an older daughter and a 18 year old son that he raised since he was seven. He had his son’s mother declared unfit in court and raised the boy with help from many female friends. He is a millionaire on paper and I know because he had me review his taxes when we first reconnected. He seems to buy and sell folks, he only buys the best of everything and is a perfectionist to the max.

He just doesn’t seem to keep any long term close relationships for very long. He alienates ppl but hates to be alone. He is very paranoid and owns lots of guns.

I am truly grateful that he devalued me because he seems very scary at times.

Donna,
It seems to be a reoccurring them that these people can’t maintain a real relationship, yet often feel the need to surround themselves with others. Guns and paranoia is always a scary combination, so you should count yourself lucky.:) Jan

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97. Phil - July 27, 2012

Hi Lesley,

In the words of Carl Jung “It is often tragic to see how blatantly a man bungles his own life and the lives of others yet remains totally incapable of seeing how much the whole tragedy originates in himself, and how he continually feeds it and keeps it going.”

And it’s very easy to analyse this at work in the Narcissist, even though they don’t see it in themselves. If anything their personality is constructed in such a defensive way to prevent them from seeing it))

Watching them ‘act out’ is very much like a Shakespearean tragedy, it is the flaws in a person’s character which lead to their eventual and inevitable downfall, not fate.

Yet every Narc will invariably point to those ‘slings and arrows of unspeakable fate’ being the definative aspect of their demise.

But having said all of the above. To keep myself objectively sane I have to apply the same tests to my own character, it’s not comfortable but completely necessary to factor in my own flaws……….

My questioning of myself, is how my character is flawed to be vulnerable to the Narc in the first place. It would be very cheap of me to point at their tragedy as emainating from within ….. and explain my own as being entirely down to fate! 😀 At least we can all hopefully examine ourselves in critical ways, the Narc can’t, which is their greater loss.

Phil

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98. Chris - July 27, 2012

Jan, thanks for letting me know that Donna had weighed in above my post, I would have missed it.

Thank you all for your comments and advice.

The N’s wife had a chance to get rid of him awhile back and fought to save the relationship. I feel that it may be unlikely she will just reach her wits end and let the guy go or leave him…..it seems it will take something more than the emotional and mental abuse…something more visible and tangible.

As we have relayed our story to people that don’t know the N, they can’t believe his behavior. The entitlement factor with this guy is so high, normal adults find our story bizarre…and it is of course!

As we have relayed our story to people that know the N, ones that know him peripherally indicate they think he is strange. Two different people that don’t know each other but know the N have referred to him as a “spook.” There is a couple that have long been friends of the N and his wife, and one said “N” seems like a great guy on the surface, and then one day you walk in to find him abusing a child – I won’t use his exact words :-X. (He said this not as something that really happened, but in that it’s clear that like Phil said, he understands the person the N represents himself to be to the world is not who the N truly is, and that the N is capable of unspeakable things).

These friends relayed stories to us that we hadn’t heard, of the N’s rages in front of others as well as directed at them. We had previously heard stories but didn’t believe they could be true, at least not the way they were told…not of this seemingly “sweet” person. Now we know they are true!

Though I wish someone would have warned us not to get close to him, we would not have believed them. Just as another friend of ours still thinks the N is a “gem” of a person, I have warned them but I also told them I wouldn’t have believed it until we experienced it first hand and I don’t expect they will until it happens to them. And I believe it will because they are close. It’s just a matter of time.

Thanks Phil for the suggestion that something short can be said but not elaborated on so as to result in supply, but to hopefully make him go away to get supply elsewhere. And God help those people 😦

Chris,
So glad I’ve got a crack crew of commenters ATM who are able and willing to help you sort things out. You’re lucky (?) that others have witnessed his bizarre behavior, so you’re not the only one saying the Emperor has no clothes. As I’ve written, it’s not until you get “close” that they drop that carefully crafted mask and you get to see what’s beneath. Like Phil said, many Ns take pride in the very qualities that drive the rest of us away. Crazy, huh? Jan

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99. Phil - July 27, 2012

Hi Chris,
‘God help them’ indeed!! 😀
People who know an N in an entirely superficial way, may well make reference to the N’s seemingly good character.
As is the theme of Jan’s site, it’s ‘up close’ when you really discover the truth.
A ‘scorched earth policy’ to completely starve the N of any form of Narcissitic supply will work. Be mindful that there isn’t even a ‘hint’ of attention in anything you do or say, that could be turned in supply by the N.

There is another tack, if you engaged in conflict with an N. But this isn’t preferable because conflict is drama and drama is supply to a Narcissist. This is just to ‘scare’ them ….. the previous solution is the only sure way to rid them fully.

Years ago I had a mug which had one of those silly quotes on it. it must be 20 years ago and it broke, but I remember the quote….

‘Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean that people aren’t really trying to get you!’ 😉
This is true of the Narc on so many levels. Their personality is geared towards imagined paranoa. Being pranoid for a Narc is Narcissitic self supply. The narrative goes “I’m great, therefore people envy me, therefore people are out to get me, the fact that people want to harm me is proof of how worthy I am” etc etc………
But ……….. on the second level of paranoa, the Narc really has p*ssed people off in real life in a BIG WAY!!! Therefore, some of the Narcs paranoia is actually founded in reality !!!:D

As Sam Vakkin says, make subtle references to heighten an N paranoa if you want to scare the N. He will inflate them himself. Just like a like a frightened child in the dark, generating monsters in his head!!! 😉

Phil

I need that mug for my desk. Hey, I found it! http://www.zazzle.com/just_because_i_m_paranoid_mug-168280064297542686🙂 Jan

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100. Phil - July 27, 2012

Hi All,

Earlier in my posts I came up with a theory (perhaps out of my desire to view the N in a more favourable light?)
That N is possibly ‘testing’ relationships for strength out of their insecurity and abandonment issues. In case any of you missed Lesley blowing my theory out of the water…….As lesley brilliantly points out, the N will continually ‘test’ every relationship until it breaks!!))

If the purpose of deliberately straining a relationship as a means to ‘test’ it for strength …….. surely there must be ‘criteria’ for a sufficiently robust and loyal partner? As Lesley points out, the N will continually weaken any relationship (however strong) until it does eventually break. Weak or strong, all relationships with an N must be undermined until the point they are broken and the inevitable abandonment fear fulfilled.

Phil

You guys all seem to be sorting things out quite well without my help. LOL N’s don’t want real relationships – they want supply and the newer the better. Jan

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Lesley - July 27, 2012

Hi Jan,
Well, you will go and create a brilliant insightful blog(lol).
Isn’t there a chinese proverb that says sg like ‘ You know you have been an excellent teacher when your students look at each other and say’ Look what we have accomplished ourselves!’
I’m off to watch the opening of the Olympics,

Have a lovely weekend one and all,
Les

Les,
Yes, that’s the job of a teacher. >blush< My friend Lesley in Suffolk has been sending me pictures of the celebrants in her village. Any excuse to break out the local Asphal's Cider. She's been texting me updates. Spoiler alert! The show hasn't begun here, yet I already know that Daniel Craig delivers the Queen via helicopter and that those those cheeky atheletes from the Czech Republic wore blue Wellies and carried umbrellas when it wasn't even raining…yet. Look forward to watching. 🙂 Jan

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101. Phil - July 27, 2012

Hi Jan & Les,

I think Mr Bean was the star of the whole show ! 😉

It was bit on the long side for an opening ceremony (impressive as it was) and long after midnight before the flame was lit here in the UK. So I’m a bit dissapointing for any of our youngsters who missed the main event live.

One result though, the honour of lighting the flame was shared amoungst 7 unknown young athletes, so any potential Narcissistic supply was dissipated 😉

Phil,
You should preface all of this with SPOILER ALERT! My friend Lesley in Suffolk did lapse into boredom mid-show and said the drummers needed to “pick up the pace.” LOL The show doesn’t come on in California until 7:30 p.m. I could watch the highlights on the internet, but that seems like cheating. Thanks for the update. 🙂 Jan

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102. Phil - July 27, 2012

My apologies Les, I assumed you would be watching events live at a reasonable hour in the States. The spoiler in the UK was having to stay up so late! )
Danny Boyle did a great job of directing))
Have a great evening
Phil

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Lesley - July 28, 2012

Phil, Jan is in the states and I am in UK? LOL I thought it was pretty good tho’

Phil,
I have another friend, Lesley, in Suffolk. So many groovy people named Lesley! My two trips to England (if you click England in my Tag Cloud, I’ve written about those) have been to East Anglia and then we do a day trip into London. Love it! I heard the show was three hours plus. I think maybe I’ll need to get some ironing done. 🙂 Love Danny Boyle. Job well done! If you check your earlier comment, Phil, you’ll see that I’ve located the replacement mug. LOL Jan

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103. Phil - July 28, 2012

Jan, lolol

You should start a line of products for blog readers! )))
Something I used to say to my N was ‘It’s important to be able to laugh at yourself….. otherwise you might be missing out on some of the best jokes’ 😉

Phil

LOL That’s mug-worthy as well! And so true. Jan

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104. Phil - July 28, 2012

Hi All,

For a while I’ve examined the main tenets of Narcissism and tried to establish the roots. One very obvious one been an inability and unwillingness to empathise. I think this is (aside from it being perplexing for those in contact with a Narc) one of the most telling ways of establishing Narcissm, amoungst other indicators. Then of course, explaining the root of the inability to empathise takes us onto other themes.

I was reading ‘Anna Valerious’ blogspot (don’t worry Jan, I’m not defecting) 😉 and she covers (in different words to what I would use to decribe something similar) a less talked about theme. She talks about the ‘fearfullness’ of the Narc charachter.

What I’m hoping is that by appealing to the Female bloggers experience of Male Narcissist, to clear some mist that obscures what I think are the same traits. These traits are often hidden behind the monicka(moniker?) of gender differences. And please forgive me for saying this ladies (it’s not mysogyny) The female N has some special tricks in her arsenal that the male one doesn’t, by virtue of her femininity and percieved membership of a ‘weaker sex’ ……… (or ‘weaker’ when it suits the female N to be weaker, that is. 😉 …..

A female Narc will use victimhood more readily (I’m not saying that the Male one doesn’t, he very frequently does) ….. but the truth is, a female can ‘hide in victimhood much easier than a man and do a much more convincing job of it!! And my experience of a Narc’s use of victimhood, is that there’s no safer place to peddle evil and get away with it, than whilst hiding inside the camp of weakness and ‘victimhood’))

Let me come plain out with it. All the time I was with N, a word which was always on the tip of my tongue, but I was (for reasons I’ll explain) always reluctant to use ! On so many occasions I wanted to call her behavour ‘COWARDLY’!!

Most blog readers and writers here are female. I’m giving a different perpective from a Male’s experience of a female N.
What is VERY UNCANNY for me (and ladies you’ll just have to take my word on this) is how the female N is virtually identical to the male one.

What obscures things (or attempts to obscure) the similarities between Male and female Narcs, are the social mores and gender politics which often colour social interactions between men and women. BUT, if you try to factor all these things out, I think you start to see how IDENTICAL IN CHARACTER the females are to the males.

So I’m looking for a female experience on any percieved cowardice in Male Narcs. It’s easier for you to do this ladies because …….

The fact is, I’m rather old fashioned at times (I feel bound too much by archaic codes of male chivalry towards women)
Which is why I was never confortable calling my female Narc a COWARD and COWARDLY. I’m just not comfortable saying or thinking it. It can also easily be twisted into the mysogyny of a male bully at work by a clever female N ever vigilant for an opportunity to do so.

(Another interesting off topic for another time, they say the Male N is a Misogynist!!) But, I think the female is whatever the reverse terminology is. Also, the female N is convinced that every man is a misogonyst also (which is probably her projection of her own feelings towards men reversed). It’s also far more palatable a thought, that all men hate all women, rather than that all men will eventualy hate just her 😉 I digressed too much, sorry,,,,,,

Anyway, a female can easily and unashamedly point out a Male coward in all his snivelling glory …. so please go ahead and tell me if this was your experience of the Male Narc?? I’m sort of hoping it was ??

Phil,
Hope you don’t mind, but I corrected some of your spelling and let some be. You remind me of one of my gifted students last year who was absolutely brilliant, but as I wrote on her report card, her creativity was most obvious in her spelling! 🙂 You have such interesting ideas that I feel compelled to sometimes clarify…pitter patter…that’s the sound of me tiptoeing around so as not to offend.
I have no doubt that female Ns are ultimately the same and that certain social mores allow females to get away with behavior that would not be tolerated in men. That’s why I send male commenters to Shrink4Man, as Tara’s audience is primarily men who’ve been “sold a bill of goods” by females who can also be cunning manipulators.
I’m afraid that more men put up with bad behavior from females because they are afraid to tell others they’re not in control. I’ve referred two men who I know personally know to Shrink4men. Their wives were both shrews and the men felt utterly powerless. Our society encourages the idea that “real” men wouldn’t put up with such cr%p. Well, real men do.
I’d elaborate, but I’m in the midst of preparing for a dinner party for 10. My husband decided he needed to fashion a 10-foot table from the cedar that was felled in the windstorm last year. It’s sitting on sawhorses ATM. I’m thinking we need Danny Boyle here to organize the festivities. Jan

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Phil - July 28, 2012

Jan, (or shall I call you Miss?) 😉 😀

You’re quite right to correct my spelling and grammar. I’m abosolutely (absolutely) awful in this respect!)
Hopefully my idea of the truth isn’t as ‘creative’ as my spelling, if it is I’ll start getting paranoid and think I could be a Narc?! 😉

You’ve mentioned the website for men before. To be honest I love the discussion on this blog, and I’m so satisfied that I have no specific desire for a ‘Male perspective’)
It’s interesting reading and contributing as a Malre(male?) though. I’m nodding my head in agreement at every post and thinking. ‘This isn’t about gender or sex at all’ So many things are genderised for the sake of it. I honestly think that a Narc is Narc male or female. It almost seems as senseless to bring race or class into the discussion, once you’ve grasped it’s all about characer and personalty. Take account of other factors by means (as I did in the above) …… but when you’ve nailed a Narc for what they are, the other factors are just diversions of little consequence to the main issue, Narcissm(Narcissism) itself!

Hi Phil,
I’m so relieved to know that you’re “self-aware” in the spelling department. 🙂 You must know that I once received a vacuum cleaner (a hoover to you) as a wedding gift. I wrote lovely notes to thank all who’d contributed for the “vacume” cleaner. My mother was horrified. She couldn’t believe she’s paid for me to go to college! My third graders LOVE to hear that story. 🙂 Yes, you’re right, it’s not whether they are a man or woman, the traits are the same dressed up in a different package. What is most interesting (from my perspective) is that Shrink4Men is written by a woman. It’s made me stop and examine some of my own preconceived notions about men/women and parenting. As the mother of two sons, I find myself increasingly interested in how men are viewed in our society. Jan
How long has it been since you were in this relationship, Phil? Have you dated since? Just curious. Jan

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Phil - July 29, 2012

Thanks Jan,

I like to think I’m self aware without flattering myself. Something a Narc is very good at…..
Which then brings me onto another point needing explanation? I consider myself very self aware, and even more aware of others ……….
BUT, if there is any truth in the above? Why was I so stupid to be involved with a Narc……….??? 😀
Now I’m about to pull a very cheap shot by way of an explanation …….. and it feels especially ‘cheap’ because I’m identifying something in my own defense, which is the mainstay of a Narcissists defense mechanism. An explanation for all those ‘external, fate driven, outside forces’ which blighted the Narcs life and were nothing to do with the Narc himself! 😉 😀

I don’t want to give details here in their exact form. But imagine yourself in a car crash with somebody. A physical and circumstantial tragedy, which brings all those involved ‘close’ on an emotional level. My better instincts and intuition would not normally have caused me to deliberately seek interaction with my N, paths were crossed through fate and tragedy. I’m cringing at myself whilst writing this, because I never want to be like a Narc. If anything I always look for tragedy and fault from within, but like I said, imagine being in a car crash with someone………. that was how I became close to N.
I said I have insight and intuition, I saw of lot of ‘red flags’ and signs early on. Thinking back I felt like the frog in your analogy, I knew how dangerous carrying this particular Scorpion would be, nonetheless I was willing to engage in liberal open mindedness and a bit of magical thinking of my own …. i.e. maybe the car crash was fate at work? Subsequently, I place very little if any stead in fate at all these days.
Anyway, my insight and intuition into people isn’t anything magical (some people explain it as such) but all I do is quickly get a ‘feel’ for characters and read ‘scripts’ . I read my N’s script and knew that it couldn’t be combined with my script (or anyones for that matter, such is a Narc’s character) ….. anyway, the relationship was artificially engineered because of a tragedy. Any relationship with an N is highly asymetrical on an interpersonal level, I knew that at the time……..
What you might be thinking, is why am I still reeling now?
One answer, an N has to ‘act out’ and re-create their internal conflict not just within an interpersonal relationship ……. but within group dynamics also. My life was undermined by the conflict caused by N, my carefully balanced harmony between colleagues and friends were indermined by N. She caused GREAT DAMAGE to my life in that way. I was never so naive as to imagine N as a viable life partner on a fulfilling relationship, it was a relationship of circumstance……… I didn’t write myself out of the script BEFORE the damage was done to the rest of my life.

I’m taking sort of a forced break and part voluntary break from it all just now. Because I went wrong and made an aggregious error, I’m making sure I don’t do the same again. )))

Phil

I had to scroll back through more recent comments to see if you’d responded. I find this all very interesting. I always think of situations as the one you describe as “trauma-bonding.” Sorry to hear that all of this spilled over into your workplace (at least, that’s how I’m interpreting it). I also worked with Joe. I was the interesting new person who joined the staff who didn’t already know that he was a very odd man. I overheard someone describe him once as “living in a world of his own making.” I found that telling, but only after I’d offered to give the Scorpion a ride.:) So for me, no one held him in particularly high esteem though he did “make nice” to some women on the staff so he always had someone to talk to. I felt relieved that my personal/professional reputation was unscathed. Although I do think that when I finally told all to those near and dear to me that there were some who wondered how on earth I got so “taken.” Yes that was the word used, “Jan, you were taken.” Ouch!
It’s definitely a good idea when one relationship ends to do some form of an autopsy, so you can understand what went wrong and emerge stronger and wiser. 🙂 Always, Jan

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105. Chris - July 28, 2012

Phil, yes, I’ve said more than once that our N is a p*ssy. Sorry for the horrible term, but he is. I do truly believe if he raged on me I could tear him a new one quite easily. But I don’t want to present myself that way and I want to try to avoid feeding his supply at all. I know we will have to engage him when we address the legal issues and that will feed his supply. I look forward to the day I dont have to think about his ass ever again 🙂

Yes. That day you’ll be singing, “Oh Happy Day!” 🙂 Jan

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106. Phil - July 28, 2012

Hi Chris,

My experience of an N’s cowardice. They create and skillfully engineer conflict in the most manipulative and cunning of ways. They are elusive when it comes to acknowledging or confronting the very conflict they create. Then all manner of cowardly manipulation, denial and gamesmanship comes into play.
‘They weren’t aware, they are victims themselves and you are unjustly blaming them , it was other forces outside their control etc. ‘
It’s as if they light the touchpaper and run, or stir an hornets nest and hide)

A dialogue of open, frank, and candid discussion is something they will avoid at all costs. But it’s a stupid supposition to imagine such a thing is ever possible with a N! It’s impossible to have a genuine and open talk with an N. You can’t ever really interact with somebody whose very being is a construct and a falsehood. Their words are the carefully constructed dialogue of their ego, verbal illusions and falsehoods.

The form of cowardice is the passive aggression. The death of a thousand cuts!

Just my thoughts.

Phil

Well said and 100% true. Jan

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107. Lesley - July 29, 2012

Hi All,
Lots of great points to reflect upon for me. I agree that in their modus operandi there are subtle differences but generally for me,Narcs of either sex are motivated by maintaining the mask,at all conceivable costs.
However,the gender stereotype debate is so so interesting to me as I believe my ex had a’Masculine Ideal’ running through his head most of the time. He worked out what I liked in a guy and then attempted to supercede this(albeit during the idealisation phase of our relationship). This meant he was brave and stoic whilst also sensitive and nurturing,creative and sporty whilst also into the arts.self aware whilst also self deprecating…..you get the gist he became a paragon of every virtue known to man or woman!
In reality he was a coward shown by his lies and by how he used others and often myself as shields for his real fears.
As an example,we were once at a wedding together. He had to leave at midnight as he had an early start the following day. He pre booked a taxi and emphasised the need for us to leave on time to me.
At midnight the taxi arrived and I went to the cloakroom,on returning with the coats I found my Narc apologising to his friends about’having to leave early but Lesley is being a bit of a party pooper tonight…she doesn’t like staying out too late…what can I do?’ I stood behind him,listening to him do this, side-lining of blame in amazement.
Later he resolutely refused to discuss why he had done so…he didn’t see the problem?? He did this many times.
One recourse I had to help was my own role models of how a man might behave ..my dad and ex husband and indeed son are generally honest,protective and decent individuals. I began to make comparisons as the relationship with my ex went on.
i found that my Narc was working to an idealised script of his own creation of what it meant to be a man? He modified this given the company he was in but in general it was based on a fantasy that the could not hope to maintain…this caused him to act out,anxiety,stress,rage and self medicating through sex and alcohol.
I suppose what I am saying is that for me, the Narc’s motivation is the same whatever gender but the ways in this plays out can be dependant on gender roles or how they perceive they fit into these roles…
One extra thought Phil. I wondered if you had ever checked the Histrionic Personality Descriptor out with regard to your ex?
They have strong Narc traits but also like to be treated like Princesses,play the victim and they are often highly seductive and exhibitionist…it did ring some bells for me when you described her behaviour. They are also more commonly women than men?

Les

The wedding story sounds like one of those moments when you can’t help but wonder, “Why is this necessary? Isn’t the truth sufficient enough?” I was once in a check-out line buying food with Joe. He was behind me and suddenly cut in front of me. I thought he was going to say he’d pay for both items. But he paid for his and walked off. After I paid for mine, I asked him why he’d cut in front of me. He replied, “I felt like it.” It’s those sort of actions/comments that leave a bad taste in your mouth. The logic is skewed, but when you’re always looking out for #1, anything goes. Jan

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Phil - July 29, 2012

Hi Les,

They say that 75% of Narcs are men, but a majority of women fall into the Histrionic PD.
This through me off scent in a big way. I looked at Histrionic I picked out many features of Histrionic and applied them to my N.

I was still more taken by the salient features NPD, but being swayed towards histrionic (as statistically NPD is usually a male affliction)

Eventually I realised that I didn’t even need to consider Histrionic PD…. not even as a co-morbid alonside NPD.
The features of Histrionic that I could fit to my N, (similar to your case) are better explained as gender specific ways of satisfying Narcissistic supply needs.

One feature of Histionic is ‘Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are’

Not the case with my N, if anything she had a fear of close relationships and abandonment (not that she was capable of a truly intimate relationship on an adult level in any case.

The Emotional involvement protection measures would always come into play at the first signs of developing intimacy and closeness. The is NPD, not Histrionic.

But if you take some features of Histrionic eg. seductive behavour , appearance ….. if exploring and establishing new Narcissistic space, in order to initially gain attention then then yes by all means. But everything is explained in terms of Narcissitic supply in relation to my N.

If anything, by applying the Histrionic as co-morbid, I’ve really thrown myself off the scent. I’m assuming that Histrionic is seductive in behavour and appearance most of the time. For my N, yes she could be seductive in behavour and appearance, but only for the purpose of gaining Narcissistic supply. Any method of gaining NS will be applied by a Narc, whatever is appropriate for the situation.

I’m 100% happy that NPD nails her character beautifully all by itself!)))

Phil

Narcissism is the common denominator for all of the Cluster B disorders, and though more males than females seem to be afflicted (I believe the figure is 50-75 percent) that still leaves a lot of female Ns out there. Beware! Jan
Jan

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Phil - July 30, 2012

Jan,

I think you failed to see the logic in Joe’s actions. it was a priviledge and an honour for you to be stood next to by Joe in the same queue. And you were taking far too many liberties, by expecting to be served before him! 😉 Phil

I was in a state of shock actually at his audacity. But he did it like a child who’d pulled something over on his mummy. All quite strange in retrospect, but I had little knowledge of narcissism at the time. Jan

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MillyRad - July 30, 2012

I’ve been following the commentary. So many wonderfully insightful comments. Sorry I haven’t been more active- I’m a stay at home mom to two young kids, and almost all of my internetting is done by mobile phone.

I once gave a small gift to my ex friend to give to his girlfriend for me. The story should have been that he gave it to her and that she says something like, “It’s really cute, thanks!” The end. Unfortunately, things got WAY more complicated (the “getting-way-more-complicated” thing seemed to happen a lot with my ex friend). The short version of the story is: After saying he would gladly give the gift to her, he neglected to do it for a month and not until I’d after I’d asked the girlfriend if she’d received it. When I finally heard from the girlfriend, she said that she couldn’t accept the gift and that she’d return it to me when she could. ?!? I felt confused and hurt, so I asked my ex friend what happened? He said that he was sorry for “forgetting” to give it to her BUT he resented that I’d “put him in the middle.” ?!? At no point during the month the gift stayed at his house did he mention to either of us women that he kept forgetting. He never mentioned that it made him uncomfortable. If he did, I would’ve gladly just mailed it to his girlfriend. My ex friend, in his “apology” also told me that he thought my motives for giving the gift were questionable and that I was testing the friendship. ?!? He told me that I needed to deal with the fact that I can’t be friends with everyone, BUT his girlfriend really liked me. ?!? The conversation dramatically concluded with my ex friend saying that he’d give anything if his girlfriend and I could only just be friends, that he’d gladly “get out of the way” so that a friendship could develop between us (that he’d stop dating her?) he was just “so sorry for me” that I was missing out on getting to have a friendship with the girlfriend because she is just such a wonderful person. He left with an air of frustration with me.

Yeah, this story is embarrassingly long.

At first, I felt really guilty about all of the trouble i’d caused by wanting to give a gift. Then I started to feel a bit annoyed that my ex friend, who likes to think he’s an honest, stand-up guy, never said anything about his discomfort. That would be cowardice. I think the lighting-the-fuse analogy is most accurate with my narcissist. He lights the fuse, then hides, giggling, behind a bush, waiting for a roman candle of narcissistic supply to explode. I feel really embarrassed to have involved myself with such drama.

Milly,
When I was a stay at home mom with two kids in a crummy apartment in New York City, there were days when all I could do was get dressed! So, I’m impressed you’re able to write so much (and so well) via your phone. 🙂 Your entire last paragraph could be cut and pasted to explain my own situation. Even your response to it. I feel like I should offer to help you pick up some toys off the floor!
On Halycon, she lists being a lousy gift giver as a N trait. I found they only “give” something to “get” something. They can be the Master of the Grand Gesture and appear with something over the top, so that the attention reflects back on them, or they can be incredibly thoughtless as giving doesn’t come naturally to them. Joe would give me the oddest cr*p he found laying around and present it like it was from Tiffany’s. He once asked me to him to help him pick out a new watch. While at the store, I mentioned it was my birthday. He pulled a gift card from his wallet and tossed it on the counter. “I think there’s some money left on this one.” That was it. And, yes there was money on it – $2. Thanks so much for sharing your experience. Also, there’s a reference to your comment on Comment #113 – I was afraid you might miss it. Jan

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Lesley - July 30, 2012

Boy Milly… I so get this.They hide whilst waiting for the big bang they’ve actually ignited to blow up. Why?????

So glad you commented on this Lesley. On one hand this is all very childlike. Setting things in motion and then standing back and watching everyone scramble. It also has that puppet master quality of being in control of the chaos? Jan

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Trapped - August 11, 2012

Jan, hey what a gift! You should treasure it!! My ex-N always said “I don’t celebrate things like birthdays and Valentine’s Day. I just do nice things all the time, any day.” Ha! Actually, he never did anything considered sweet or romantic. The only gift he gave me was a bracelet he bought while back in his country for a few weeks. Meantime, I was taking care of his cats, cleaning up his place (after raccoons broke in and got into everything), and doing his dirty laundry the whole time…oh yes, this was done at 5:30 AM before I went to work because I had to sneak in the place so as not to run into the “girlfriend” who may drop by to see how things were. STUPID me. Not any more!! A very funny side to this sad story was that I discovered while he was gone that he had not just one, but TWO other women besides myself and his “girlfriend”. I wrote him an e-mail telling him to call one of them to take care of the cats, I was done. I got back a blast of phone calls and e-mails, and skype attempts telling me how dare I do this and how cruel it was of me to just dump his cats like that and he had no one else to ask to do it and it was impossible for him to arrange from where he was (although I was aware that he was e-mailing and skyping the others). Long story short, I continued to care for the cats because I didn’t want another innocent thing to suffer at his hands.

It’s common for somatic Ns to have a virtual harem of women only a text away that they can fall back on. While he tried to guilt-trip you, you took the high road and took care of the innocent critters. He sounds like the alley cat of the litter. You owe yourself a pat on the back. Jan

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108. Phil - July 29, 2012

Hi Les,

If you know a person, you can pretty much write their script in advance! 😉
I’ll take my N to the same party as you went to. She’d survey the landscape of the party and assess how much potential Narcissistic supply was available (in terms of attention and adulation)
But a ‘partner’ is a ‘partner’ as a consistent source of NS, it’s just staple diet, the bread and butter of NS to offer sustenance. A Narc is never satified by one source of NS though, primary or otherwise. A narc always has to expand their geography and space because more is better, quantity of supply over quality.
So at the party having a primary source of NS present is going to be a bind, its limiting their desire to increase their range and find new sources and more of them……
So when it’s time to go home and leave the party, she’d probably pretend she was tired and needed to sleep…….. when really she knows that after midnight there’s an even bigger party (with more people and even more sources of NS) which she’s going to sneak off to by herself….. to try and gain as much new NS somewhere else!! 😀
This is how a Narcs brain works! And afterwards she can still return to her primary mundane source of NS …. it’s staple diet and getting blander all the time though!

If I can give my best analogy of a Narc it is this. Think of an alcoholic who is wealthy and cultured. They are AN ALCOHOLIC and keep that idea in your head all the time. At home they have a wine celler. They have all manner of wines and spirits on the wine racks. Vintage ports, champagne, fine malt whiskeys.
You give tem a bottle of fine wine carefully selected. You’ve considered the wine region, the type of grapes, the year of vintage, the particular winemaking region…….. initially they look at the front of the label of the wine bottle……… but they quickly reverse the bottle to read the percentage of alcohol volume!!!! And this is the most imporant thing for a Narc. How much alcohol does it contain???

And as you visit their wine celler, you start to think it has some great vintage wines, But on the shelves are bottles of plonk that a person of taste would be embarrassed to keep there.
You suggest to the alcoholic that he throws out the bottles of ‘plonk’ because they look stupid on the same rack and the celler is full of wine in anycase…..

At this suggestion the alcoholic gets very angry and protective of his plonk………….. he reasons…. alcohol is alcohol and one day I might need that plonk if the other stuff runs dry………….. and besides which, he doesn’t care in anycase…….. wine is only drunk for the effect of the alcohol, not for an appreciation of wine in other ways!!

That is how I reason a Narcs mind works………. put as much alcohol in your celler as possible… wherever it comes from or whatever form it takes

Phil

I swore I’d responded to this one, but our party went late last night and I’m still on my first coffee. With a N, quantity always trumps quality. I saw Joe act giddy with excitement during the Idealization Phase. He was like a small boy who was getting his sweets. Even then, the moment another woman would appear, he’d immediately redirect all attention onto her. Did she have any sweets for him? (I’m indulging you Brits. >wink<)
Keeping with your analogy, Phil, Ns keep a cellar full of NS for times when fresh new Primary Supply is running low. The N wouldn't understand why you put all that care into picking out the perfect wine for them. The bottle would go on the shelf with all the others to be used before its expiration date. Jan

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109. Phil - July 30, 2012

Jan,

Our Brit candy is much sweeter than yours, that’s indulgence enough 🙂 Unfortuantely Brit dentists are not trained well enough to counter its effects. 😉

Thanks for pointing out the extra meanings inside my particular wine analogy.
The person giving the wine, mistakenly thinks the alcoholic cares more about quality than alcohol content.

And your accretions (Jan here not knowing what this means) to my story work beautifully. The alcoholic is always engaged in finding new sources of alcohol to replenish his cellar, at a rate faster than the supply is depleted. The cellar is a store, so spending time there drinking the same supply low is not an ideal situation and a cause for anxiety.

And the obvious moral of my story, never waste a genuine emotion on a Narcissist.

Phil

Absolutely. Cheers! Jan

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phil835 - July 30, 2012

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/accretions
This is what accretion means Jan, I even managed to spell it correctly in my post )))

Thanks. I believe I went over to Google while I was reading and typed it in to see what it meant. If words are used more commonly in the UK, which this probably is, it doesn’t necessary show up straight off. I also had to look up another reference of yours to “torchpaper.” I did learn it was a military term for paper to light something. 🙂 My vocabulary is growing daily, but I’m afraid I shall return to school and write the date as 22 August 2012. Jan

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Donna - July 31, 2012

Chris, I personally would be very cautious about ragging with a N, they can be very dangerous, vengeful and often will try to destroy your reputation because they have a great fear of being exposed and will do what ever it takes to make you look like the crazy person.

As far as the wife, she will only leave when she has had enough or she and her child are in danger, in my opinion that’s when your friendship with her will be most important.

Sometimes we just need to “mind our own business”. I have alot of notes myself about some of the weird stuff my exn friend said and I have kept them to remind myself just how crazy he is. Take care of you and yours!!!

I agree with Donna’s assessment of the situation. Jan

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phil835 - July 31, 2012

Hi Lesley, iI have a reasonably wide vocab and sometimes use some more obscure words if they fit what I’m trying to explain. I think ‘accretion’ did quite well in the context. My ability to spell words correctly is somewhat lacking though, I assumed I’d misspelt it as usual ! 😉
Language is very revealing of a person in many ways! I’ve realised that I used a military term without thinking the other time. 😉
I started to get interested in how a Narc structures their language, there isn’t much info on it though. I have read that they use third-person singular when refering to themselves., my N did a lot also! And in an earlier post I think I mentioned how my N’s language was revealing that she had objectified me.
What is most telling though, and I think Carnege said this. He said something along the lines of ‘I stopped listening to what people had to say years ago, I just watch what they do’ 😀 Phil

If we’re talking about Dale Carnegie, Phil, you better get that spelled correctly as it’s a Scottish! haha When I go to edit the comments (and add my two cents), I can also type words into Google for the correct spelling, which I’m often at a loss for. Jan
Yes anyone can talk a good game, but actions DO speak louder than words. It’s that simple. Jan

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110. Phil - July 30, 2012

p.s. The reason I placed vintage ports, single malt whiskeys, and select champagne in the cellar.
Is because for a time I thought the alcoholic may be fastidious soul who craves for a ‘variety’ of quality…….. an easy misunderstanding. Hence why I placed some ‘plonk’ on there and invited him to take it out. 😉
He’s a heedless alcoholic. That’s all !!! 😀

It’s all the same in that if you drink enough swill, you’ll eventually get a buzz.Jan

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Phil - July 30, 2012

p,p,s.
I should have said: ‘He’s a heedless and INCURABLE alcoholic’
I think that’s all. 🙂
Phil

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111. Phil - July 30, 2012

p.p.p.s
I was wrong, He’s a heedless, shameless, selfish, greedy and incurable alcoholic and coward in denial of his (which becomes our) problem!!
Anyone who thinks I missed something out, please feel free to add more?
Phil 😀

And his hangovers are brief. He quickly moves on to new NS. Jan

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112. Lesley - July 30, 2012

Learning a lot from these descriptions of cowardice. Another one comes to mind….
My Narc hid from and despised his background…to explain;
Sorry to explode a myth but most of Scotland’s population live in big cities. I would love to emerge from the mist like Cyd Charisse in Brigadoon but have always lived and worked with hundreds of thousands of others…my Narc was different. He was originally a small town boy,coastal village,East of Scotland.
I would say to him…how great was it to have come out from a house …to the beach or to play in that countryside 5 minutes from your home? Nope,he despised it.
He affected an urbane,sophisticated manner. He’d worked in London.Glasgow….his past was behind him. However in reality it wasn’t?
I mentioned his macho buddies before,they were also his fellow villagers…the people he grew up with. His points of reference were their’s too.
When he trawled the internet for temporary supply it was in these village,small town regions…he invariably didn’t follow through.
My ex had no recent friends. If I said to him I am off to have coffee with a woman I have being working with…he looked at me as if in disbelief. He was so untrusting of people that he didn’t make new friendships. Something Donna has said comes to mind here. My ex only had friendships that gave him something financially or confirming the mask. I have always kept in touch with two Octogenerians that I once worked for…when I said I’m off for lunch with these guys he said’
‘What can you possibly get from that friendship’
‘A laugh,a debate about politics,friendship,catching up…a hug or two…’ Completely lost on a Narc??
Yet,for his primary supply he sussed that he wanted a city person. His terribly long suffering ex wife,his girlfriends and me were all in the same mould. We were educated, invariably light haired and skinned(He had an aversion to women with dark hair)and generally nurturing. In short we were objects.
Much of his opinions were at root homophobic,racist and sexist yet he knew enough to hide it well. On many occasions,early on, he fooled me.These were his boyhood values,Ingrained and fixed.
As an aside, I think my ex’s reading matter gave him away. This was one of the first clues to me regarding who I was actually with…put it this way it didn’t appreciate diversity!
They really are so predictable folks… aren’t they? Why were we fooled?
ps. Jan, Love the bit in the queue,by their actions you know them right? I found myself on a scary mountain taxi ride with the ex in Spain,one seatbelt in the back,you’ve guessed it…he fastened it around himself and looked straight ahead!!!!

You’ve managed to make me laugh out loud twice now in the last 30 minutes. What a hilarious image, but isn’t it the sum of the details that reveals so much? I’ve read that Ns craft their False Self (or at least put on the finishing touches) as teenagers, so if your N hated country life, it would be only natural that he’d affect a more urbane persona. It’s not that different than Don Draper’s desire to reinvent himself to distance himself from his past/true identity.

Isn’t it telling that he couldn’t imagine why you’d want to spend time talking and having a good laugh with some former coworkers? In such a situation, Joe would have sat on the outside looked bored, then left early. But if an attractive woman joined the group, he’d have lit up like a Christmas tree. Once you know what you’re dealing with, they’re a predictable lot indeed. Jan

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phil835 - July 30, 2012

Hi Lesley,

I was laughing out loud at your description of your ex. it was very reminiscent of my N from south of the border.(UK)
I don’t want to put any emphasis on the effects of geography on the personality of a Narc. What is interesting though, is a Narc’s emotional response to their environment and background, wherever they may come from!))

My N comes from a small village in the heart of ‘Middle England’, it is insular and paraochial. Like Les, I also thought it was a great place to enjoy ones childhood, and by all accounts it was. Moving on, N (now located in the Capital) affects an air of haughty superiority, as if suggesting a ‘worldly wisdom’ of those vogue Cosmopolitan types, as if born that way ! 😉

What is interesting though, is the insecurity behind the ‘acting’ of a Narcissist. They play many parts and adopt many personas, which are not a true refelction of their ‘real self’. That’s what acting is, BUT, they HAVE TO BE BELIEVED’ by everyone and at all times and at all costs. There is no room for imperfection.

I’m starting to think of those ‘outakes’ from a film or a sitcom drama. The actors make a blunder of their lines and immediately everyone bursts into laughter, the director shouts ‘CUT’ and after everone eventually composes themselves it’s ‘take 4 and rolling’

Except a Narc doesn’t have any outakes, there is no laughter! If the acting goes wrong it’s not funny, for them a slip of the mask is the worst thought imaginable, it’s humiliation!
This is why they can’t laugh at themselves!!!

Narcissists may make great actors and take their parts very seriously, but they don’t convince me!

Phil

I love the comparison to the outtakes or bloopers. While the rest of us laugh hysterically, the N is mortified to have made a mistake. So is your kitty seeing a lion because it’s Narcissist, Phil? Or is this more along the lines of I’ve had enough and now you can hear me roar? Very clever graphic! Jan

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phil835 - July 31, 2012

Hi Jan,

Yes my avatar is reference to the grandiosity of a Narcissists false self, although I do like cats large or small! 😉
I think a Narcissist is so self loathing and ashamed of their ‘true’ self, any threat to the illusion is life threatening for them. I think to some extent we all have ‘professional public’ and ‘intimate private’ personas. Again, this is how only ‘up close’ can you realise something is ‘not right’ about a Narc. Somebody becomes aquainted with you on a professional level, but as friendship/intimacy develops you expect to see their true self. That is what frienship is, it’s based on trust and we allow those we like and trust availability to our intimate true self. This is when you discover a Narc. It’s not that you are not close enough or trust the issue, the true self of a Narc is so well hidden even the Narc avoids access/ is largelly unaware of it. The true self of a Narc is suppressed at all costs!! Phil

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113. Chris - July 30, 2012

Our N created the problem and then “ran and hid” like Phil said when we wanted to discuss it. From what a long term “friend” of his told us, he can’t handle confrontation and will have his wife or attorney handle it for him. We heard he also played the victim from more than one person that “his feelings were hurt!” Poor guy….does a stupid, entitled thing and when we just want to TALK about it he runs and hides and whines and then explodes on us when we finally do make contact (after he hid for a month).

He also cannot be alone and if his wife and child are absent, he will surely go hang out with others. They have company very frequently, no matter how exhausted the wife is.

And yes, I believe she is secondary supply to him. Now that I think more about things, it seems as though he barely spoke to her when we were present. Bizarre.

MillyRad,
I wonder if just looking at that gift box that your ex-friend held onto for a month gave him supply.

All wives are Secondary Supply. Once the N “has” you, you’re rewarded with an automatic demotion to SS. My sister-in-law found this out on Day 1 of her 14-year marriage. Her husband was a cerebral N, so he wasn’t out looking for other women. He seemed to enjoy just hiding from her in plain sight. Giving her the silent treatment. Playing mind games.
You asked earlier if I actually told Joe he was a Narcissist. I did, and any normal person would want to know how on earth you come to that conclusion. But Joe never asked. At one point he looked like a hurt little boy and said he found this “demeaning.” Demeaning could have described virtually everything he did…to me, but ultimately he made it about himself. Jan

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114. Chris - July 30, 2012

This guy gives his wife the silent treatment too.

I was just reading about Narcs and their children and came across this: “How the children of narcissists get conditioned to tolerate narcissists” http://narc-attack.blogspot.com/2006/11/how-children-of-narcissists-get.html

So sad! Knowing what we know of this guy is bad enough…what about what we don’t know that is going on in their house w/that poor child.

It crosses my mind if I should print off that article for the wife but I realize it could just backfire terribly. She knows she is dealing with someone who is not “normal,” but she is still there. Like I said I think it will have to be something more tangible (physical abuse to the child or adultery or something) before her eyes fully open.

Maybe I’ll print it off for the future.

As other commenters also suggested, trying to warn others, however well intentioned, can backfire. Yes, the wife is still there despite all that’s happened. Let’s say she comes to you begging for help. And you give her information on NPD. The odds are high that she’ll return to him. Wrapping your head around the whole NPD thing is one tall order especially if your self-esteem has been undermined or you’re dependent on your spouse for financial support. It was only after my sister-in-law finally divorced her husband that she read about narcissism on my blog and realized that her ex was classic. Her comment is #27 on this link.
The children of N parents are never good enough. But with one nurturing parent and therapy, they can eventually see their way out of the fog and reclaim their self-worth. They finally understand that it had nothing to do with THEM. Jan

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115. Chris - July 30, 2012

Thanks Jan. I do wonder if they’ll hear from others that I believe the guy is a narc. No one ever used that word when commenting on him to us…just that he was odd.

Some stuff I’m reading says it’s right to warn others (obviously the wife situation has more layers regarding the question to warn or not and like you say the odds would be high she’d return to him anyway). Some say it’s our duty to warn. But like I mentioned before, we wouldn’t have believed it until we witnessed it and put all the pieces together.

I occasionally find myself wondering if he will approach me and rage on me. As I’ve been reading so much on this topic, some say the best reaction to a rage is to simply walk away, while others suggest raging back on him. The ones that advocate mirroring his rage indicate he will immediately fall into “victim-mode” and slink away. My concern is that I would want him to stay in “victim-mode” and stay the hell away from us.

Have any of you raged back during a rage? What was the reaction both short and long term?

I’ll let others weigh in as Joe didn’t rage though I know there are Ns who do and it’s all very illogical and scary. Unless you’re naturally prone to raging :), I probably wouldn’t attempt to outrage and a rager. I’d be concerned that it might have a more traumatic effect on you then you might realize. And ultimately, you will NEVER get the last word with a N, so it’s all about roosters puffing out their chests. Many Ns do enjoy engaging in verbal jousting and you don’t want to fall on that sword. At the first sign of raging, I, personally, would remove myself from the situation for self-preservation’s sake. Jan

Also, I’d love to know what kind of things were said…I realize that may sound terrible but I think I’d enjoy them. Sorry!

I actually understand. In the aftermath, I actually wrote down EVERYTHING he said/did, so I have a record. Although it’s been five years, he still lives/works at the far reaches of my universe, so only recently have I been a little more forthcoming with the exact details. I’ll have to dig up the notes. Pretty weird stuff. Jan

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116. Lesley - July 31, 2012

Hi all,
Chris,just a bit on the confronting… When I confronted my ex, I had lots of proof. If I’d ever reacted before he would talk me down,get angry….this time he literally folded. He became very quiet almost frozen. Think of the kid with the hand in the cookie jar and you’ll get it.
The game was up and the discard came a week or so later.
I think your situation is different in that the person who actually has to confront this man is his wife,she needs to gain her own insight and strength to enable to do this. It’s tough but until that happens all you can do is be supportive. She’ll wake up one day.The capacity for denial is very strong in some folk though,they look for any excuse to stay because the Narc has worn them down. If you check the forums as I was doing a few months ago,it’s sad but so many people are trying to win their narc ex back. But ‘he may not be a narc…kind of thing…’ i think this is a form of ‘learned helplessness’,the future is scary so even narc is preferable?
Phil/ yes I really get that third person singular thing…my ex had a cast of thousands as aliases,would often refer to himself in the third person. In a way they are acknowledging the act…they are putting a name to their persona. Re Cats(lol),my mother has a mantra’ Never trust anyone who doesn’t like cats’….I wouldn’t go that far but my ex hated cats. They weren’t biddable enough I guess.

Haha! I have a similar mantra about dogs! I’m afraid I’m horribly allergic to cats, but most of my closest friends seem to have cats, so I coo over them (when they bother to make an appearance), but I can’t touch them. I did write an early blog Dog People vs. Cat People. The one time Joe came to my house, he acted disgusted by my dogs (to pets in general) and asked that I lock them up so they didn’t shed on him. I should have unleashed the hounds!
Joe also often referred to himself in the third person, but as “The Finisher” when we were working on a project together. (I once had a dentist who referred to himself in the 3rd person quit going to him because that creeped me out.)
Lesley, when I confronted Joe, his reaction was much the same. It was like watching a balloon slowly deflate. The remnants of the balloon then blew off in the wind. Jan

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phil835 - July 31, 2012

Hi All,

I don’t have any experience of raging with an N. The cowardice factor meant that ‘avoidance’ tactics were always employed by N. It was escape and evade! I’ll follow Chris’s tale with interest because something I’ve never witnessed is a rage. Passive aggression was the prefered weapon and outlet for anger if my N was on the offensive.
Les’s analogyand one I’ve used before, is the child and the cookie jar. I never caught my N with a hand in the Jar ‘literally’ like Les did. But she ‘knew the game was up’ metaphorically and I think paranoa did the rest, I think she imagined herself as been caught! 😀 And the emotional response? Exactly the same as Les and Jan’s Narcs. ‘I’ve been found out, I think I’ll leave’ …… and that was it!
I would like to think that guilt and shame played a part in the emotions on an N. But I don’t think they did. If the N was capable of guilt or shame, guilt or shame might keep their paws out of the cookie jar without and adult watching over them? Think of a 6 year old being caught and punished, yes they know they’ve done wrong. but they haven’t internalised any lesson ….. and how else does a Narc keep on doing the same elsewhere! Phil

I don’t think there’s any guilt – maybe a child’s version of shame though at having been found out. That’s when they run and hide. Jan

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phil835 - July 31, 2012

Yes I agree Jan, if there was shame it was a child’s version of shame and no guilt. Or why not do the usual Narc mind trick and blame external forces? “The cookies were to blame, they had too much chocolate in them’! 😉

Joe admitted that he’d been told before that he had “boundary issues” and I’m sure he’d been told he was self absorbed before I told him. After all, this was a guy who had a framed 8X10 of himself (when he had hair) hanging above the door to his apartment (thankfully on the inside!). I believe on some level Ns know that they are a fraud and that’s why they try so hard to keep their mask in place. Once “found out” they are mortally wounded and slink away rather than fight their “outing.” They lick their wounds and then the cycle begins anew. Phil, you’re on the way to becoming my #2 most prolific commenter! The prize is that I fly to a city near you that begins with a “W” so you can buy me a cider. LOL (That’s the city that shows as you IP address. I know Lesley’s was 30 miles away, but if I were you, I’d be on the lookout for for the MIA.) 🙂 Please know that all my comments are said in the spirit of fun. Jan

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phil835 - August 1, 2012

Jan, I’ll be happy to buy you a cider in the city that begins with a ‘W’ )) If it has an airport, it is a provincial one which you could never fly to directly from the States 😉 I’m in transit at the moment, I’m not permanently rooted in this backwater, I hasten to add! 😀
Without saying too much about myself, I’ve lived in the USA and worked amoungst Americans overseas for a number of years. I’ve also lived for sometime in Lesleys neck of the woods. I’m English and Lesley is Scottish, all part of the UK, but there is a difference which I’m sure Lesley will be quick to point out!)) To confuse you (and Lesley) even more. I look English, I talk English and I grew up in England which was the culture of my environment. However I don’t have an English bone in my body, my parents and ancestors are of different cultures and I have other ‘cultural references’. I easily pass as being ‘fully’ English. The same could be said about Danny Boyle, he’s English and he grew up in England, but his parents are both Irish!!
As an Englsh person living Scotland, Lesley 😉 I found it highly amusing to be the ‘representative’ English person, bearing the brunt of animosity and tension! ))
Also within Scotland, there is an East coast/West coast divide, that most English people are not aware of this until having lived there for some time. The East and West Coasts have an unhealthy contempt for each other, which was highlighted in one of Lesley’s posts. Even within the same city, such as Lesley’s there are huge religious sectarian divides which find their main outlet in football (soccer).
You have to have lived and not just travelled, to understand these nuances. Phil

Phil,
I WOULD make a long trip on a bumpy road for some scrumpy. 🙂 I was just talking today about how Northern and Southern Californians view themselves so differently, but then California is so large. Tonight we had friends over and we got into the East Coast/West Coast divide here and that doesn’t even factor in The South.
We have a close friend whose father was Russian but grew up in Poland and came to live in the UK after his service during the war. So our friend, except for his Polish surname, would appear to be the quintessential Brit, but he’s so much more. I suppose this is one more way we label and sort each other for convenience’s sake.
I think Americans tend to me more comfortable with having more than one culture that informs who you are (at least in theory). Last year I had students who were from Mexico, Honduras, Korea, China, Egypt, Armenia, and Ethiopia. It’s always interesting as we forge a class (as in classroom) culture that transcends so many differences. 🙂 Jan

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Trapped - August 11, 2012

My confronting experience with the narc ended in either of two ways: he became cold as ice and mumbled something about ‘when things or people around me become negative, I tend to move away,’ never addressing the original concern at all. Or, the second response was to, again, completely ignore the issue, and dance all around it in a million different ways as if he had never heard a thing. Back when I thought he was the cream of the earth, I would laugh and tell him he should have been a politician. Now I would smack him. Well, not literally, but…

Trapped,
HAHA! I’ve had both of these reactions. You’re hoping to clean the air yet find you’re talking to yourself. Your opinion equals negativity. It’s like they want to fast forward through any emotionally charged conversation to get back to their regularly scheduled program. Jan

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117. phil835 - July 31, 2012

Hi All,

I’m doing some thinking out loud, so please feel free to add your comments, insights and dissagreements wherever you see fit. I’m just exploring my own ideas, and I welcome any comments where my thinking may be going astray?

First of all, a thank you to all the females for exposing the extreme cowardice of Male Narcissists.
A while back I tentatively asked for a female experience of cowardice in their particular male Narc. The response has been full and overflowing with examples, more so than I could have imagined!))

The reason I was reluctant to highlight this particular trait in my female Narc, was because of obvious gender inequalities which often predispose women into positions of weakness and submission. My own archaic code of male chivalry, prevented me from highlighting or criticising this very apparent ‘cowardice’ I kept detecting in my female Narc.

I think it’s safe to say that Narcissists are a ‘breed’ all by themselves, be they male, female, Asian ot whatever else! Yes they are these things also, but when you ‘factor out’ culture, gender, race or any other defining features, you discover that their personality traits are essentially the same.

All of the comments on cowardice seem to have been in agreement with my own observation. They ‘light a fuse and run’ ALWAYS avoiding the subsequent conflict or consequences they have deliberately caused. They use every available childish reason in their ‘get out clauses’ and excuses they can think of.))

And it’s combining the above ideas which lit a light bulb in my head!!

I would never have criticised a female for weakness as a male, If I did, I might appear to be some strongarmed bully. Riding roughshod and trampling over a weaker person’s will, all done from a position of power and superior strength. In my opinion that would be pitiful))

But would anyone criticise a 6 yr old for weakness and cowardice?
I don’t think so!!!

And it brings me back to the analysis of a Narc as a 6 year old with the physical and intellectual maturity of an adult.

The Narc’s EMNOTIONAL and MORAL development is that of a 6 year old child, arrested in development!! 7 yrs old is the age of reasoning, they haven’t reached that stage and they never will!!

I’m going to digress slightly but it is for a reason. Years ago we had at one of my former workplaces, an ‘honesty shop’. You decided what you wanted to take from the shop, then you put your money in the box as payment. There was no shopkeeper or CCTV, just a basic shared universal human concept of honesty and trust. The idea of the ‘honesty shop’ was entirely based on the notion that, if you stole from the ‘honesty shop’, a reasonable and adult person would feel shame and guilt !!!! ))))

Now for any criminals, if you want to commit the ‘perfect crime’ it’s easy! Go to the honesty shop and take whtever you want and don’t pay for it!! You won’t get caught and nobody will punnish your crime, if you steal, it will be without consequence!! ))))

Knowing my own moral code and values, I could emerge from a nuclear holocost as the only person alive on earth. And upon crawling out of the bunker as the last human alive, if I was come accross the honesty shop …… (for what difference it makes) I would still feel compelled to place $1 in the honesty box for the snickers bar I’ve just taken!!! 😀 😀 Do any of you think or feel like me?? 😉 😀

What I’m saying about myself is that I’ve internalised values and morals. It is not neccessary for there to be consequences and punnishments for my actions. My conscience is the policeman inside my head, I feel guilt and shame for my misdeeds!!

Now this is how I think the Narcissits mind works, it is as 6 year old!!!. ‘If I do something naughty (as much as I want to do something naughty) I may be discovered and ‘found out’ by an adult, then punnished for it. This is why I don’t think or do something naughty, unless of course I can get away with it!’

Notice how the Narcissist (infante terrible) as he is, commits his misdeed then ‘runs’ to avoid punnishment and consequence?
This isn’t an adult, it is a child! And perhaps it isn’t cowardice as such? It is a baby who hasn’t chosen to reach the stage of reasoning (7Years old) !!!
I’ll do my mischief, then I’ll run and hide in case and before I get punnished for it by an adult!

I think this may explain the cowardice and shamelessness of the Narc we are all familiar with?

Phil

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phil835 - July 31, 2012

P.S. An early theme I was trying to explore was the Narc and thier friends. I’ve used the description ‘shamelessness’ about the Narc and when I think about N’s friends they fall into two categories. The insufferable and the unspeakable! And it is the latter who fall into the N’s close retinue and offer the N emotional and moral support. What I’ve noticed about the N’s nearest and dearest friends of choice, is that they are morally bankrupt!! And I can see why, in times of crises when the N needs support, a person with an intact moral compass may give negative feedback to the N.
When I think about the best friend of my N. Let me do something I don’t usually do here, it is to poll popular concensus of mutual aquaintances and former colleages. Whilst I have my own opinion of N’s best friend, but mine is just one opinion. Let me describe her in terms of the opinions of others. If we lived in the dark ages and she was tied to a stake to be burned, they would all come out to watch and cheer! Enough said! Phil

I’m not sure that LOL is the appropriate response, but it’s the first thing that comes to mind. My N and my sister-in-law’s ex had NO “close” friends. They had acquaintances who they’d call when they needed a quick fix of NS, but they were both cerebral, so that kept things out of the bedroom. Yes, I was one of those people with an intact moral compass who gave negative feedback, though it was to “help” my friend sort things out. Jan

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phil835 - July 31, 2012

P.P.S, I’m not sure of the dynamics of how a close friendship with an N works. It probably isn’t ‘genuine’ friendship as we understand the definition. But the close friends of an N are certainly ‘enablers’ however else the friendship may function. Phil

They are not genuine friends and most don’t care enough to ever speak up about anything amiss. Jan

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118. Lesley - August 1, 2012

You are wholly right Phil that there is a difference between Scotland and England,like you I have lived in both..think much of the ‘animosity and tension’ you describe is caused by either not appreciating that we are in fact completely different countries? With different education systems,legal systems,health authorities and cultures or histories?Re the East coast/west coast divide.I completely disagree.The sectarian divide is mostly in the West of Scotland and rooted in the immigration from Northern Ireland last century?
Us,East coasters do not really care about someone’s religion..and any contempt I have for the’Weegies'(Glasgow)is very healthy.Wonderful, diverse,stunning city that it is.
Sorry Phil, I think you made some sweeping statements there…!
To say that either Glasgow or Edinburgh main outlet’s to express their differences is football is like saying that a Parisien’s main outlet is’eating cheese!'(LOL)
Re friendship with Narcs.Here are two links I found recently… I actually used the facebook one to have a class debate with my students on the pro’s and con’s of social networking Jan?
My own networking reflects my view of friendship these days… I follow three or four blogs seriously and appreciate the depth of comment.
I am not a facebooker in general and found this article spot on!
Re enablers Phil/
Also something I find key to understanding Narcissism…they essentially need enablers to keep going?The second article touches on the fact that if you are a serial enabler(Thank God I’m not!),then you actually have inverted ego/Narcissism issues yourself?
You go around thinking you can change the Narc,your care and understanding will eventually cure them?You believe yourself to be the’exception to the rule’.These enablers have attachment issues themselves and may use the masochistic feelings generated to feel whole,to assuage or replay pain from early experiences. In short they are also wounded children….taking punishment again and again.
What a bloody pairing!!!
One of my own mantra’s these days(Not about cats Jan!)…is actually borrowed from my 2nd! favourite site ‘Baggage Reclaim’. As follows;
‘If you continue to pursue an emotionally unavailable person,time and time again….you MUST confront that you are wholly emotionally unavailable yourself’
The links are;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/mar/17/facebook-dark-side-study-aggressive-narcissism?

http://www.arachnoid.com/ChildrenOfNarcissus/narcissism.html

Les

Les,
I like cheese.
Can you tell I’ve been reading a book by a man with Asperger’s? 🙂
Yes, I’ve read many articles about what a fertile playing field Facebook is for Narcissists. So many “friends” so little time. One can carefully craft their online persona and cultivate a vast collection of “friends” for NS. (Of course that wouldn’t be me!)
I like cheese. >wink< Jan

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119. phil835 - August 1, 2012

Hi Lesley, I think I misunderstood (or made an assumption) that you were from Glasgow. Which is why when I was talking about the religeous sectarian divide within the same city expressed through football, I meant within Glasgow!
The East coast/West coast tensions I refer to, I only picked up through subtle references and comments made by one side about the other. Needless to say and similar to the North/South divide in England, that doesn’t imply the two are at war. they occasionally make derogatory comments about each other.though. And in both England and Scotland, one has to live there for some time before getting a ‘feel’ for the more subtle nuances of feelings. However, a person wouldn’t need to be in Glasgow very long, to detect the depth of animosity between Rangers and Celtic! 😉
I’m looking forwards to your links. Phil

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120. phil835 - August 1, 2012

I’m really at a loss to describe the dynamics of a close ‘almost real’ friendship between two Narcs! In the UK we have a TV sitcom called ‘Absolutely Fabulous’. It is two female friends both in mid life, both have narcissistic tendencies. This is as close to the situation I’ve seen in real life. As such, one female N friend isn’t a co-dependant or ‘enabler to the other female N friend. It’s as though though they bring their minds together, in a collective effort to think up new ways of gaining their individual and respective Narcissistic supplies, from enablers elsewhere!!)) It is a mutual admiration society between equals, almost!))

Example, N’s female friend who is also an N, found a boyfriend 15 years her junior. The relationship between N’s female friend and boyfriend (needlless to say he has issues with self confidence) is one of a Narcissist and co-dependant, she gains Narcissistic supply in having a young lover and thereby proving her youthful vitality and desirability.

The two female N friends heartilly approve of each other’s success in gaining their respective Narcisstic supply. And of course provide emotional/moral support at the inevitable end of thier frequently repeated N cycles. They seem almost equals to each other, I can’t see the typical exploitation/asymmetrical nature of this alliance between the two female N’s?

Their other relationships always involve people being enablers and acolytes though. I can’t find an instance of this in any litearture, everything concentrates on how the N uses friends as enablers/co-dependants for Narcissistic supply,
Has anyone else seen anything like this?
Phil

Oh the irony. My ENGLISH Lesley (not to be confused with SCOTTISH Lesley) told me last week about a hilarious AbsFab promo for the Olympics, so I was on Youtube looking for it. I didn’t find it, but I did watch several segments from the show. (It does show here.) Their common denominator seems to be shallowness and alcohol. In the one I watched, she lamented that it was their last bottle of champagne. As she started to close the door of the fridge, what looked to be a bowling pin setter dropped down and deposited a new row of champagne bottles! At that, I laughed myself silly.
I CAN imagine two Ns or N-like people coexisting/conspiring as long as neither had any real moral compass. As you say, they enable one another. I know someone who’s an alcoholic AND a drug addict, but rather successfully holds down a legitimate job by day. His roommate is a woman who also has addiction issues, but works more menial jobs. When she was fired from her job/s, he (who earns WAY more money) supports her. He’s gay. She’s not. Although he complains about her constantly, they’re virtually a couple. They might as well be the women from AbsFab. Jan

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121. phil835 - August 1, 2012

Jan lol, glad you liked it, that was the episode I watched by chance and I was laughing because they are ‘dead ringers’ for my N and her friend. It’s as though they don’t expoit each other, but they combine their minds together, in asking the same question which they are both self absorbed in. ‘How can I get attention!! 😀
It might be on BBC America if you have that channel where you live?
Phil)))

We do have BBC America though many of the more well know British shows like that are in syndication on other networks as well. What are the odds that I would watch THAT episode? When the show first aired, I watched one episode and thought, “These women are so pathetic!” I’m more attuned to British humor now, so I think it would provide a good laugh, as both women are so trying so hard to hang on to their fading youth and trendiness that it’s comical and just a bit tragic at the same time. And they both are very narcissistic. Jan

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122. phil835 - August 1, 2012

Yes, hideous and pathetic is a very apt decription of those two, and the two real life ones known to me. Rapidly approaching mid life, they have a dread and a fear of their impending extinction now the cheaper ways of gaining NS through male attention has become increasingly hard, they are less able to use sexual attractiveness. Then they spend a fortune on cosmetics, grasping at the alixir of eternal youth and attractiveness. It’s a shame nobody pointed out years ago, that real beauty is on the inside)
Those two in the sitcom are ‘harmless’ enough. The human cost (as I discovered to my own demise) was not so much the deleterious effects of an asymmetrical relationship (which is damaging in itself). It was the ‘acting out’ of conflicts causing damage to other stable relationships and friendships. Anyone can rid themselves of a Narc once you’ve become sickened by the relationship on an interpersonal level. But count the real cost in terms of any damage done to other parts of your life? I feel sorry for children of Narcs, they have fewer choices!

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Lesley - August 4, 2012

I love AbFab and I think it works because the actresses who play them,Joanna Lumley and Jennifer Saunders are so different to their characters in real life… In fact Joanna Lumley is a bit of a ‘national treasure’…not sure whether that is a Brit term or not?
She was and is a seriously beautiful woman… I know my Dad has had a crush on her for years!
So the characters are a complete send up….and Jennifer S writes the scripts.
It’s hard to imagine people like this actually going through normal life so my sympathy is with you Phil if you experienced it.
I find getting older hard…I think most people do but I recognise it’s a lot to do with socialisation…people who are physically attractive are treated differently.They may not even realise this for a while.
Then it’s a form of power that can be difficult to give up…I think the Narc in particular must wrestle with this?
It is indeed like the portrait of Dorian Grey….despite what they do,the magic of creams and potions….time creeps on.
Your description of a narcissist woman trying to hold back time is like King Canute trying to hold back the waves. Impossible.
I think our faces show our depth of character…for good or bad.

Les,
Thanks for making me realize it’s AbFab and not AbsFab (which sounds like a companion for the Thigh Master). LOL
Imagine aging in Los Angeles? I’ve saved a cartoon for years that shows people arriving at the airport. An official says, “Welcome to Los Angeles. Do you have any physical imperfections to declare?” LOL Jan

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123. phil835 - August 4, 2012

Hi you two))

If Oscar Wilde had been around a century later Jan, I’m sure he would have used his famous quote. ‘I have nothing to declare but my genius’. (I wonder if he was something of a self aware cerebral Narcissist, a bit like Sam Vaknin?)
Picture of Dorian Gray is without doubt one of my favourite accounts of the perversions of a Narcisstic lifestyle.

There’s nothing wrong in being attractive and having physical beauty per se. The difference between Narcissists and others (as Les suggests), is that the Narcissist is more likely to abuse their attractiveness as a form of power. It hurts a Narcissist more to consider the loss of any superficial attractiveness (especially if they have over-relied on it in their youth). If you repeal their superficial physical beauty, what type of person are you (and them) now face to face with? 😀

Whether or not you are physically attracive in youth, I think a person with a strong ego reflecting their true self (as opposed to a false self) will age much more gracefully. True beauty comes from within, it isn’t painted on and it doesn’t fade as readily as it does for the Narc

I don’t think the Narcissist does a very convincing act of being beautiful, at any age or in any physical condition. That’s just my opinion.

Narcissists really are all show and no substance, whatever they do. They seem to lack genuine interest in pursuits, other than for their ultimate purpose of gaining narcissistic supply.

I think this is why they struggle more with the thought of mid life. With fewer people willing to pay them attention and adulation for doing whatever it was they were doing. Be it riding an exercise bike at the gym to wearing the latest designer clothes. Are they capable of taking pleasure in anything without the resulting Narcissitic supply?. A scary thought for the Narcissist I’m sure! ))
Phil

The gap between the Ns “false self” (and its sidekick Magical Thinking) and REALITY becomes more noticeable in middle age. I believe it gets harder for the N to ignore/avoid the truth about their sad life. I find that most Ns are mundane people whose fantasy life may be rich, but their real emotional life is impoverished. They will ultimately die alone (even when surrounded by others) because that is how they’ve lived.
I do wonder whether they do anything just for the joy of doing it. That would require doing something with no mirrors though? Jan

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Source B - December 7, 2012

It might be a good moment to point out that Sam Vaknin isn’t a ‘self-aware narcissist’. He’s a psychopath. He’s not an expert in narcissism — he’s an expert in engaging fear.

I was pondering his description of ‘narcissistic supply’ the other day, and wondering what he would define ‘normal human interaction’ as — i.e., as a counterpoint. I talk to you, you talk to me; I enjoy it, you enjoy it — that’s normal.

Vaknin’s definition of ‘narcissistic supply’ encompasses all human interaction. He says that NS differs from normal chatting by quantity and quality … but although he says that narcissists need more of it, he never addresses the quality issue. It’s a lovely little trap the chap has set: gaslighting.

The difference isn’t in the interaction, really. It’s in the use that’s made of the interaction. Vaknin doesn’t seem to see this.

Ignore him.

(Don’t you tend to feel more miserable and angry after watching or reading him? –> Step away from the lunatic.)

Source B,
I actually found that after reading Vaknin, I first understood how dark and deep the void is inside the N. They are calculating predators masquerading beneath the guise of charm. Everything Vaknin done is for NS and he says as much. It’s interesting because I don’t feel miserable after watching or reading him. I feel like his depraved indifference is on display for all to see. If you still believe you can “change” a N, then you’re the one with the problem. Jan

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124. phil835 - August 4, 2012

I coudn’t agree more with your observations Jan. The N lives a spiritually impoverished and empty existence. Every safeguard is taken to avoid this reality, and it is through necessity that they surround themselves by others and drama. Essentially they are antisocial, they need people only as supply and as objects to be used. They have no genuine interest in anyone other than themselves!
The truth is exposed at the end of an N relationship and in mid life. The only solutions are another source of N supply at the end of a relationship, or to desperately think of alternative pursuits other than relationships in Mid life, which may gain supply?
To be alone with their true self and nobody to validate the grandiosity of their false self, is unimagineable for a Narc. If you are in love with a Narc and try to accept and love their ‘true self’, remember it is somebody who they themselves hate and despise so much that they repressed and distorted it at all costs. Much as you may want to, you can’t help them, or reform them by showing them genuine love and hoping for some reciprocation. Eventually they will poison your own soul and damage your own existence. Unless you are willing to accept a false partner in a false relationship without reward. Please move on for your own sanity. Phil

I couldn’t have said it better myself. 🙂 Jan

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125. Donna - August 5, 2012

Thank you Jan and Phil, your last two postings just confirmed every thing I have been feeling lately about my exnf he will end up alone, however in his case he has enough money to buy people or bribe folks to show up and spend some time with him and these are folks that really care less about him except that he has money. Most of the other people that truly cared about him and had his best interest at heart have moved on because at some point he used and abused their honest, sincere, love, friendship and giving from a geniune place. Even though we often may feel like we lost, it is they that lose in the end. I just have to keep reminding myself that he is a very sick, disordered person. Take care all. Donna

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126. phil835 - August 5, 2012

Hi Donna,

There’s so much about being in a relationship with the N that seems incomprehensibly unfair. Your sincere and genune love was ‘lost’ on the N, so was mine as so many others I dare say?

They end up in relationships surrounded by people they deserve, false and insincere, they are destined to be alone if not in body then certainly in soul.
There’s a quote from the bible which everyone knows. I only recently read the second part of it, the first part is often quoted. I’m not a Christian or trying to slap a ‘bible injunction’ on the Narc;) But somehow this bible wisdom beautifully summed up the demise of a Narc.

‘Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.’

In the same way the Narc also ‘mocks’ people, he operates on only the basest of human levels. Therefore he can only ever ‘reap’ back the same corruption he sows. And it is implied, that only those who have invested anything on a spiritual level, can be rewarded with genuine and lasting happiness. Just my interpretation.
Good luck to you Donna. Phil

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127. Lesley - August 7, 2012

Hi Phil/ Jan/ Donna,
Coming back to this thread because of the’true beauty lying within ‘ motif and because I am so enjoying spending a Summer in jeans,
t shirts and what I recycle from my son’s wardrobe.. my ex would be horrified. It’s made me go over why he was beginning to make me insecure about my appearance…
We had just come back from hols on quiet side of Majorca and I had put on a few pounds.I am of slim/medium build so it didn’t really show…but I told him. I said’ I must have put on about six pounds with all that paella!’ He didn’t register or appeared not to? However..cue supper and he reached out as I was clearing up and pinched my waist..’Yup definitely put a bit on…’ A joke I surmised?
A week later,he had repeated this action to me…on my legs,back,waist at least thirty times. Joke no more. He was doing it to make me feel bad…to bring me back under control if I was happy or looking good.
In itself this is a tiny slice of cruelty from my experience with a Narc but unfortunately it gets worse. From the age of nineteen to 24…I was ‘eating disordered’… I over exercised/dieted to stay extremely slim.
Thankfully having my son sorted it… I recovered.
However,my ex knew about this period in my life…when I told him I trusted him and he seemed caring and interested. Yet it was ultimately a tool to use against me. He took an insecurity of mine into his own arsenal for later Narcissistic Game Play?
This thread made me think of this again and his motives. He was very insecure with his own personal appearance. As a young man had been a rugby player who had let himself go…he put on weight easily because as a somatic narc he ate and drank too much..was he projecting his anger at his own appearance onto me? Was it a passive aggressive way to display rage…not sure but would welcome comment?
Jan,loved your comment about ‘Welcome to Los Angeles’…it’s like that movie ‘Death Becomes Her’ right? Funny but chilling at the same time…..

Light Shine,
Les

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Donna - August 8, 2012

To Les, P & J, I hope I don’t offended by not posting your names. I have been away because of family members in my town for a few weeks. My 90 yr old aunt, her daughter and her two grandchildren, ages 5&3, much to long of a story…..

I really can’t make any comments about hair color because I let go and I’m a Short Salt& Pepper girl. I colored my hair for many years and even did Purple once.

So here is my need of your replies. This coming Sunday, there is a huge Class reunion gathering in a neighborhood park and I plan to attend. There is a very good possiblity that my exnf will also attend. I have not seen or talked to him for many months.

I guess my question, is “How should I present myself if he sees me, I have not intensions to seek him out, I just want to have a great time…….

Donna,
I like purple BTW. 🙂 You know you don’t HAVE to go, but if you choose to, I’d go with someone else (Everyone needs a wingman.), so you have an “out” and backup. A polite nod would suffice. It’s interesting that you’d write this today as I just received a notice that there’s to be a district-wide meeting on the first day of school. We’re expected to attend. Mercifully, I did not see the N last year. This November it will four years since I’ve run into him, so I’d like to avoid any encounter. So, I’m thinking about this myself. 🙂 Jan

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Lesley - August 9, 2012

Donna, you will have a great time…just don the cloak of invisibility if he appears. As Jan says,be with someone,friend,family and enjoy the event….absolutely don’t seek him out,if he approaches you tell him where a stall is…end of
Pity of him and self preservation of you ,can sit well with each other…? Every time it gets easier….
I personally at moment would not go where my ex might be.. I gave up on concert the other night because of slim chance he might be there? However, have no plans to live my life this way. It’s about evaluation of the hit you take of you…?and then moving on… My ex’s movements will not control me….but I owe it to myself to be careful of me…. I wish you a happy time with friends and family at the event. xxx

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Donna - August 10, 2012

Thank you so much to jan/les, I am OK. I totally will not avoid this event because he might be there, that’s control for him from my point of view. I am and had a free will spirit for a very long time, and my Son will be my tagging along ……

I have emotions, empathy, compassion and developed my moral boundaries many years ago. That doesn’t mean I don’t like and care about him, it just means I didn’t have any influence in a change in his behavior. The choices and decisions he made are is his and they are based upon his history….. It’s just a matter of time as Phil said; when it all catches up. Phil, I don’t care for the word coward; for me it’s more “fear” of not being Loved with all my warts, moles, scares and weakness………So I will…………Devalue & Discard anyone that cared.
Just Me Donna

You have a great attitude Donna. The only person we can change is ourself, and once we realize this we quit wishing and hoping for the world to spin in the opposite direction. It just ain’t going to happen. With with your son as your wingman, you should have a great time! 🙂 Jan

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phil835 - August 12, 2012

Hi Donna,

Sorry iI missed this one. I don’t have any advice as such but I want to add some thoughts.

When I expunged the Narcissist from my life because of the drama, conflict and destruction she had wrought. I decided to operate a scorched earth policy and end contact with my otherwise healthy (but not close) friends who were common aquaintances. A clean and sure break seemed like the best course of action, it ended a chapter and an era for me.

On reflection, I sometimes think what I did could be seen as the actions of a person either scared or ashamed. The truth is I’m neither. The sad thing is that I constantly get messages and e-mails from old friends and colleagues genuinley interested in my wherabouts and current activities. So in this sense I know I’m thought of in high regard amoungt my former social circle. Ending the chapter for me was my deliberate effort to prevent any future contact (or future possibility for her to act out and unsettle my life in the future. I made a realistic assessment that at the end of her next Narcissistic cycle, as she gets increasingly desperate she will likely seek out old sources of NS for a quick fix until the next one. I don’t want to be used in that way. To even acknowledge a Narc is to validate their existence, to show your anger at their misdeeds is to offer supply, you prove that they did make a difference to someones emotions. Indifference is what they loathe most and that you must show them. It is the best Narcissistic injury there is.

My thoughts on this are mixed, part of me says, I have nothing to be ashamed of, people who know me like and respect me a great deal. It’s not fair that my life was unsetlled and I have to take steps and make sacrafices with my friends to make sure the Narc has no possibility of making a comeback. That’s the price I had to pay for taking my own stance. And like Lesley foregoing a trip to the concert, you may lose out on certian things when you clearly don’t deserve to. Phil

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Donna - August 13, 2012

To all my friends here, I did go to the picnic in the park and had a wonderful time with all my old friends from my high school days. I didn’t see my old N friend however I did see his son and several old friends of his, so I assume he was there somewhere. So I am feeling like I have taken back my free will spirit not to allow this person to have any negative influence on my coming and going. All I feel is that he lost a very good person who cared about him. So no contact is just that no contact……..

That’s wonderful, Donna! I was wondering yesterday if this was THE weekend. But take those …… out of the equation. What’s called for is a PERIOD. He can’t lose something/someone he didn’t value. When people return to us, we want to this is because they missed us, but for Ns, it’s just to see if they can still get their foot in the door for more of the same. Jan

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128. phil835 - August 7, 2012

Hi Les,

I think your Narc was definitely at the malignant end of the scale. It sounds like a classic case of ‘managing your levels of self esteem’ to keep you under his supremacy and control. It’s a typical psychological tactic of the psychopathic types. To mount a successful psychological assault on anyone, then you have to know enough about their insecurities and the workings of their minds. Obviously, it’s only people who we ‘trust’ enough, or who appear to be caring and interested, who we make privvy to our human weaknesses. A psychopath will store up and make note of your insecurities, carefully crafting appropriate weapons to inflict emotional injury later on when necessary.

I don’t think my N was anywhere near as Malignant of yours Les. To be a good psychopath, you have to attempt some detailed understanding of the minds of others. My N was far too self absorbed to understand how other peoples emotions work. She lacked social intelligence and human awareness, although intellectually she was very clever.
A psychopath doesn’t have emotions, but he certainly takes to the time to grasp how they work inside other people.

For my N to fully understand my mind or others, it would have taken considerable effort and probably have been a huge distraction from her modus operandi of thinking about herself 😉

I’ll tell you an anecdote from my relationship which you may find amusing. My N had an ‘idealised’ image of her own figure, occasionally she would go on those intensive slimming camps when her figure slipped to far from her own ideal. I wasn’t concerned about her weight or figure in the same way she was. She had imperfections as does everyoone, but the thing was I accepted them as part of her as a ‘real’ person. She often said to me, I was the only man she had ever felt comfortable with, I was most flattered by this. I could prod a finger in her tummy for fun, but not as some form of insult, I was happy with how she was imperfections included.
But in a way, my acceptance of her true physical self was not what she wanted to be accepted, she didn’t accept herself. Whilst she loved the notion that she more confortable with me than anyone else. What she wanted was to craft her ideal self, and prefer a partner who would praise her ideal physical self and reject her imperfections as she did. As Jan said somewhere else, anyone who accepts or loves a Narc’s ‘true self’ must be a loser! 🙂 Phil

Phil,
It’s kind of like in mythology where only gods can consort with gods. Once they consort with a mortal, things take a turn. By accepting a N’s less-then-godly traits, you’re seeing them in a human light which they abhor. You’re consigned to the netherworld! Jan

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129. phil835 - August 7, 2012

Hi Les, just some extra comments on your post.
In your descriptions of your ex, I noticed the distinct lack of an emotional response in acknowledgement to your statement.
“I said’ I must have put on about six pounds with all that paella!’ He didn’t register or appeared not to? ”

Clearly, he had coldly registered your emotional insecurity, later using this ‘information’ to mount his assault.

You asked. ‘Was he projecting his anger at his own appearance onto me? Was it a passive aggressive way to display rage…not sure but would welcome comment’

I wasn’t there, but it sounds to me like he needed to give your ‘self esteem’ a good battering for whatever reason. Phil

Les,
I don’t think it was necessarily projection, but more likely an attempt to plant the “seed” of self-doubt in you. In this respect, as Phil suggests, it does give him the upper hand (or poking finger LOL) to hit you where it hurts when it suits him. FYI I have naturally red hair, yet the N would repeatedly say, “You and your dyed red hair!” Even though I knew he was full of sh*t, I still found this unsettling, and I believe he enjoyed seeing me wince every time he said this. Jan

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130. phil835 - August 7, 2012

I had a male colleague with natural red hair. i used to say to him ‘It must be great being a ginger, that way you can actually look forwards to turning grey or bald’ 😉 The southpark episode on ‘gingers’ is especially funny, even to gingers who can laugh at themselves). Obviously red hair on females is considered more attractive than it is on males by some. So I assume your N wanted to unsettle you. by suggesting you were a ‘fraud’ Jan?
I think a good way of discovering a Narc, is that they can’t laugh at themselves or take any criticism of their carefully constructed false self.
By the way, the male colleague I mentioned above had a great sense of humour. I wouldn’t make remarks to anyone that could cause real offence.
One of his favourite jokes was to pretend to be ‘body dysmorphic’. He was grossly ‘overweight’ but would refer to himself as having a ‘perfect physique’, the body of an adonis and an athletic build. 😀
When we started laughing, he would fein a hurt and puzzled look on his face, as if to suggest he couldn’t understand what we found funny? i.e. As if he really did beleive himself to be slim! 😀
A Narc could never indulge in such humour, they just don’t have it in them)))) Phil

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131. Lesley - August 7, 2012

Hi and thanks for comments…
Phil I remember you saying that my ex may have been psychopathic and I kind of balked at that… but yes, as time goes on and thing settle he was definitely up there…as I said to Jan recently…he was high in the medals table.
You know spiders,snakes,Ghosts and such bring them on… I am hard to scare…but these guys frighten me. I do experience the hair rise on the back of the neck when I think of what we have gone through.
My ex had done this before with his previous girfriends…one of them had been told she was less of a woman by him because she had never been a mum…she was infertile!!!
I have to repeat this to myself slowly…what man would say this to a woman. My empathy for her is through the roof…
I’m struggling a bit just now because I know he is possibly doing a character assassination on me at the moment and hey.. I’m human(thank God)… I don’t like to think that’s going on…
I’m not sure which category I’ll fit into(LOL)…angry,deluded,unstable,selfish….all of his previous girlfriends/wife were described as such.
Phil, I need to find the humour in it…the comment you make about them not being able to laugh at themselves is spot on…its a carmine red flag!
Jan..in my youth.. I was….’reddy fair’ as we say up north…! Ginger!!
It’s my guilty secret… I’m entitled to my Blonde(Pseudo and now actual) moments…
I think this is one of these transatlantic blips in humour..there is a famous Brit comedy sketch by a comedian called Katherine Tate which shows ginger people as being hounded and rounded up….
Its def a trippy kind of humour.
But… I think Joe..liked your ‘red’ hair…as in Phil’s comment…the kind of Susan Sarandon, Maureen O’Hara kind of way….but being a Narc he despised what he admired.
Anyways… I love reds… I was born one,but sadly went off primrose path..ha!

Les

Haha! I’ve got that Catherine Tate sketch on my blog. I’m off to Russet Lodge to see if I can find the link as I LOVE it! I did write another post called Seeing Red which you might appreciate. And Scotland has the most of us National Treasures >wink<. Recently I read that natural redheads could be a thing of the past by 2060! Jan

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Lesley - August 7, 2012

Jan, I was a strawberry blonde babe at birth..who went reddish..go figure I’m Scots/Irish.The sketch is hilarious…the one with the placards and police…right! Well,reds are natures tortiseshell cats… I miss my 23 year old baby cat…but they wont go. by 2060..they need to breed…

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132. phil835 - August 8, 2012

HI Les, Jan.. I;m not a southpark fan this was funny though.
http://www.watchsouthparkonline.net/season-9/episode-11-ginger-kids/
Phil

Haha! Unlike my brother, I have no freckles, so I now know that I’m officially a Daywalker! Jan

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Lesley - August 8, 2012

I’m sure I watched this one…thanks for the reminder!
Wasn’t there a meet a couple of years ago in Red Square…gingers of the world unite?

I plugged Redheads in Red Square into Google and immediately learned we Redheads even have a Manifesto! Also, Anderson Cooper’s Ridiculist did a great segment after it was reported that redheads were being turned away from sperm banks! I personally think that Simon Baker and Damian Lewis would make anyone want to “go red!” 🙂 Jan

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133. phil835 - August 9, 2012

Hey you two,
This blog was supposed to be about Narcissism, and now you’ve both gone off to form the ‘ginger seperatist movement’ instead 😉

Well I hope there’s just as many Narcissists amoungst your ranks of gingers, that will spoil your party for sure ! 😉 😉 😉

Actually, Phil, although the majority of the posts ARE on Narcissism, if you go back in my archives to The Beginning, you’ll see that I didn’t set out to blog about narcissism. It has taken over my blog though, but I can’t help but throw in other topics for comic relief as Ns are so BORING. >wink< Jan

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134. phil835 - August 10, 2012

Hi All,

Jan is right, Narcs are boring and I want to forget about them! They will eventually seal their own fates. I’m taking all my thinking to its conclusion and then I want to stop talking about Narcs once and for all 🙂 I think they get a well deserved fate, even if Narcissism may have its roots in their alleged childhood trauma?

A while back, I asked for everyones views on Narcissism and cowardice? If you remember, my Narc was female so I was uncomfortable using this indictment as a male against a female. If the Narc’s personality is essentially the same, then the female bloggers were more than able to highlight the Male Narc’s unbelievable and snivelling cowardice!

Some of the recent literature is suggesting that Narcissism is a ‘shame based’ personality disorder. We all know how ‘shameless’ the Narc is, and some people suggest that the Narc is in ‘shame bypass’ mode because shame is something that they will try to avoid. My understanding of this theory, is that in childhood they were perhaps ‘shamed’ (as all parents shame thier children for ‘transgressions’, but they were not sufficiently comforted afterwards to restore their mental balance. Therefore, a Narc bypasses their feelings of shame and avoids them. My review of the current accepted wisdom may be innacurate, but no matter, I want to take my thinking in a different direction.

I think Narcissism is cowardice based. The inplications of and the shame component of their personalities may be very important, like the lack of empathy and sense of entitlement is. But I think cowardice is at the root of everything and I’ll explain why.

I think that the best ‘description’ of a Narc is somebody with an adult body and an adult intellect, but with the emoational and moral maturity of a 6 year old child arrested in development. I think this as a very accurate description of a Narc whatever the causes of Narcissism were.

I avoided calling my female Narc a coward for obvious reasons. And for the very same reasons, I would avoid calling a child a coward. Except that’s what they are. Selfish, emotionally wounded and extremely cowardly children. Yes, they have had their childhood traumas. But lots of children are very brave whatever their childhood traumas are. We can all think of the heroism of children dying of cancer, then note the unbeleivable bravery of many children in these circumstances((

And what is Narcissosm exactly, other than a defense mechanism? Their false self is like a suit of armour, carefully constructed to hide and offer protection. Why else would anyone be cloaked in a full suit of armour, unless they were very afraid? While the rest of us expose our skin and are very open to wounding, are we not?
So why do we allow ourselves the opportunity to be hurt and to feel, when the Narcissist takes every measure to avoid it? Cowardice perhaps?

And back briefly to my own Narc. Yes she had an emotional childhood trauma when her parents seperated, her dad rejected her emotionally. But she had a VERY priviledged and advantaged home, a consistent and loving mother in an otherwise stable environment. Yet why did this emotionally wounded and traumatised child become a Narcissist? There was emotional hurt, but no physical or sexual abuse. And there was no privation or neglect whatsoever.

I persoanlly know another girl who suffered tremendous physical, emotional, mental and sexual abuse as a child. She also grew up in extreme poverty, and to finish off her luck in life, she was also bullied at school on account of her clothes being second hand rags full of holes. And what type of girl is she now? Probably the most generous, kind, thoughtful and caring human being I can think of. She’s not even bitter or resentful, or if she is, then she certainly doesn’t show it. She’s not a Narcissist either, she loves and gets hurt the same as the rest of us.
Perhaps she was brave enoough to take that step of developing emotional and moral maturity, even though anyone could easily forgive her for not doing so?

So in concluding my thoughts on Narcissists, they are mainly just cowards. All of us hurt, all of us have our crosses to bear. Their cross in life is made lighter while the rest of us have our crosses made heavier, Rid yourself of these selfish cowardly people once and for all. They are not worth your attentions! Phil

Phil,
I love words…and word origins. I mentioned to you that I’d have to put some thought into cowardice vs. shame. It seems that “coward” is most associated with the military and the word originally derives from “turning one’s tail” (and runnning?) or possibly a dog putting its tail between its legs when frightened. In keeping with its military association, a “coward” is one who fails to show “courage” when engaged in a confrontation or struggle. Cue dishonorable discharge or firing squad.

When I went to Wikipedia’s page on “shame” this bit came up which I found interesting.

“Psychoanalyst Helen B. Lewis argued that, “The experience of shame is directly about the self, which is the focus of evaluation. In guilt, the self is not the central object of negative evaluation, but rather the thing done is the focus.”[5] Similarly, Fossum and Mason say in their book Facing Shame that “While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one’s actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person.”[6] Following this line of reasoning, Psychiatrist Judith Lewis Herman concludes that “Shame is an acutely self-conscious state in which the self is ‘split,’ imagining the self in the eyes of the other; by contrast, in guilt the self is unified.”[7]”

I do believe that Narcissism is a shame-based behavior. Ultimately, the only power words have are the meanings we assign to them. I do teach a unit on Courage to my students and we talk about how “courage” is the quality of doing what’s right even when you might be scared. Jan

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135. phil835 - August 11, 2012

Hi Jan,

I agree with the shame verses guilt distinction and I did factor these ideas into my thinking.

I can still defend my analysis that a Narcissist is a selfish and weak coward. And that cowardice is behind their personality, not shame.

I’ll define ‘cowardice’ as the opposite of ‘courage’ in my use of the word.

A Narcissist will avoid shame and guilt, we all agree on that. But is it a shame based behavour?

I don’t think it is shame based, but shame is something they will avoid because they are cowardice based.

Let me go back to my favourite analogy of the Jar of cookies.

If Alice steals cookes from the jar, then ‘stealing cookies’ is the naughty behaviour and associated with guilt. The behaviour was ‘naughty’ and therefore we attach guilt to stealing. The guilt is attached to ‘external’ events though, stealing cookies = naughty.

Now if we shout at Alice and say’ Alice is a naughty girl because she stole the cookies’ The guilt is attached to the external behavour (stealing) and also internally to Alice. Alice is a naughty ‘girl’ because she steals. This is shame and shame is an internal feeling of guilt.

When Aice accepts her guilt, is sufficiently sorry and promises not to steal again. Then we can comfort Alice and assure her that she is no longer a naughty girl.and no longer in shame.
In fact, many ‘experts’ talk of how parents must differentiate the behaviour as naughty more so than the child. In my opinion you have to show the child that naughty external behaviour will bring internal shame, therefore don’t do it.

But what does the Narcissist do, the Narcissist avoids all guilt and all shame. We’ve all seen this at work. And how do they acheive this. We all know this answer also. There is no shame or no guilt, because what was naughty externally was a result of other outside forces and not the narcissist. The Narcissist is not to blame for anything and therefore no shame is attached to the Narcissist.

So back to Alice. Alice will tell you, it wasn’t her fault the cookies were stolen, they were too easy to reach. The cookies had too much chocolate in them. Somebody else took them. It wasn’t Alice’s fault the cookies were stolen, therefore there is no guilt and absolutely no question of attaching those painful feelings of shame on Alice.

Is Narcissism shame based? A Narcissist will avoid shame and probably doesn’t like shame. But they are cowards. They will not take personal responsibility or develop the moral courage to admit to their own guilt and therefore shame. Why attach shame to yourself if it can be avoided? Because they are cowards. Courageous children admit their faults, feel shame for their actions and then (hopefully modify) their behavour. The morals become internalised. If I steal I will feel shame.
The narcissist thinks differently, “if I steal I may get caught” that’s the main reason for not stealing for a Narcissist. So it’s only their cowardice that keeps them out of trouble also.
I defend my ideas, Narcissists are cowards.
Phil

Experts agree that the False Self is constructed to protect the N from further emotional injury. And this “mask” is constructed when the child is most likely VERY YOUNG, at an age when children ALWAYS blame others because they’re still developmentally learning to take responsibility for their behavior. Oh, young children will say they are sorry and won’t do something again. But more likely or not they’ll just take greater care so as not to get caught. I say this because I work with these children every day.
I’m not as concerned with what causes the Ns behavior because it can keep us from focusing on the more important issue of how they behave as adults and how this behavior can be so toxic to those who dare to get close to them. Jan

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136. phil835 - August 11, 2012

I think a lot of psycho babble attempts to explain the Narcissist and to excuse the Narcissist. Because a Narcissist avoids shame, they expamd this idea with the concept that ‘shame is especially painful’ for a Narc. Perhaps the poor little darling Narc wasn’t conforted enough in childhood, after having experiencing being shamed by an adult? Therefore they must be a shame based personality.

My thinking is that a Narcissist is avoiding shame because they are avoiding responsibility. They are too selfish to develop the moral courage required to accept responsibility for their actions. They can better serve their own interests, without the unnecesary baggage of guilt, conscience or morals that somehow limits other people.

We all witness a Narcissist at work, the appear to act without conscience or morals. They never accept responsibity for their own actions, it is always ‘external’ events to blame for any worng doing or wrongs.

To feel guilt, to feel shame. to have a conscience and to take responsibility all involves having courage and being truthful with oneself. I experience tremendous emotional pain at feeling these emotions, but I still allow myself to feel them.

So is a Narcissist somehow exempt from having the courage to accept blame? Or do they feel pain much worse than the rest of us so it’s perhaps better we excuse them for not doing so (As the psycho babble Narcissist apologists may suggest)?

I’m asserting that the Narcissist has chosen to be a selfish, cunning and cowardly individual who lacks the courage to accept responsibitly.

If I could throw away my conscience and morals, I could become a Narcissist. The Narcissist never had the moral courage to accept and internalise morals, conscience or responsibility for others.

Your closing statement should always be the last word on this topic. It’s not necessary to understand why they are as they are. Just recognise them for what they are and run a mile! Phil

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137. Lesley - August 11, 2012

Phil/Jan/Donna,
Just coming in here with my view. I don’t think the Narcissist processes feelings like we do,therefore any understanding of
the concept of Cowardice(or how Normals see cowardice) will be skewed.
I believe us Normals will see the Narc’s behaviour as overtly
cowardly..but that this overt cowardice has its root in early feelings of shame or as I purport fear.
They are six year olds acting as cowards to a situation that causes them fear? Additionally because they have been frozen in time(as surely as pre packed peas)they have no capacity to develop other strategies such as talking fear through,behaving bravely,reviewing brave actions..and going onto adopt these in the future.
Instead they have as their arsenal all sorts of awful strategies such as lie-telling,pretending to be someone else,running away,engaging a new gullible person….etc.
Indeed all the strategies we discuss on this forum.
I do think they are fearful constantly with mask slippage being the prime fear. It’s like that adage;
‘ A Coward will die many deaths but the brave man only one’…

The Narc is a continuously wary creature,suspicious of others and moving on from person to person…everything is potentially scary.
But chillingly other people(us) are used as shields,then discarded when we can’t or won’t provide enough protection?\\

Les,
That was the quote I was trying to remember! “A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero only one” from William Shakespeare. I believe that for the coward these are essentially psychological deaths as in deaths of the spirit. Thanks for the great explanation above. You saved me from having to do a lot of typing. 🙂 Jan

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138. phil835 - August 11, 2012

Jan I agree,

My choice of the word cowardice is as through the lens filter of an adult. A Narcissist probably doesn’t consider their behavour cowardly, as in what causes shame in an adult. The Narcissist hasn’t devolped emotional or moral maturity beyond age 6, so fearful is probably a better all round description of their feelings.

And somehow I don’t think the Shakespeare quote has the same meaning to a Narcissist as it does to an emotional and morally mature adult. There’s an adult sense of shame attached to an an adult concept of cowardice.

The Narcissist narrative would probably be ‘I got out of trouble a thousand times because I was clever. I used the easiest and safest way that works best. That brave person (whatever bravery or courage is for who knows?) got killed’ 😀

And I fully agree with all these sentiments about the N using an ‘arsenal all sorts of awful strategies such as lie-telling,pretending to be someone else,running away,engaging a new gullible person….etc.

But, we can easilly forgive a fearful child for being frightened. A Narc isn’t just a fearful and scared child avoiding danger and trouble.
A Narc is actively creating conflict and a landscape of conflict.
Like we said much earlier, they stir the hornets nest and then run and hide behind mother’s coat tails to avoid consequences.
So the Narc isn’t just a weak and cowardly child (or shall we say fearful) ……. it is an enfant terrible! Let’s not forget this !! Phil

Phil,
Since I’m getting ready to go back to school, I’ve got my teacher hat on. (It’s a virtual hat BTW) I give you an A+ on your reasoning. Not to quibble, but I don’t think mother is wearing a coat. Here in the U.S. we “ride on someone’s coat tails (as to get a free ride) and hide behind our mother’s skirt. LOL Jan

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139. Chris - August 11, 2012

Hi all, I’m just catching up reading here. Phil, please don’t stop talking about Ns. I also want to thank Donna for her reply to my last post as well. I’m thankful I didn’t miss it as I usually just start to read at the end of the page.

Yesterday the N and I were at the same store. He left only moments before me. When I got to my car who was but 10 feet in front of it talking to someone but the N (his car was nowhere to be seen). Out of all the places he could have been, there he was by my car.

Do I think he purposely stood by my car? I can’t know that 100% but it sure seems like it. Maybe doing so gave him some kind of tingle up his leg :-/

In addition in a recent conversation I had with the person who not long ago described the N as a “gem” type of a person, they described the N as possibly ‘becoming senile and losing his mind.’ Very interesting.

Chris,
You said you and the N were at the same store. Did you actually see one another? Does he know what your car looks like? If so, I doubt that this was a coincidence. More like he just happened to be THERE to 1) make you remember how great he is 2) mark his territory, or 3) get a tingly feeling you described just because he knew that him being there set off a reaction (however minor) in you. Those are just my initial thoughts. Jan

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140. phil835 - August 11, 2012

Hi Chris, I’m looking to eventually bow out of the forum as part of moving on. This place is a tremendous for mutual support, to which I’m grateful to everyone contributing. Thank you for especially for your kind words. Even though I’m about to leave, reading your above post put a huge smile on my face and I can’t help but offer a few thoughts, and describe a situation from my own interactions with my N.

You’ll find that many coincidences are skillfully engineered by the Narcissist. What’s more, they consider themselves so especially cunning and clever that nobody will notice. And pleading innocence and coincidence is a form of gaslighting. You’ll start to give them the benefit of the doubt and think am I being cynical, perhaps it was coincidence and they are innocent. Maybe I’m bad for always thinking the worst?

I’ll tell you a little story about my own N. One time she was insistent that I go to a party with her, I wasn’t paticulary keen on the company there, but i went along just to be sociable and so she would have somebody to arrive with. At the party, a mutual aquaintance of ours was there. I’m not saying I would have avoided going there with my N, if i had known about our mutual friend’s presence at the party. However, my N was adamant about it being a coincidence that our mutual friend was at the same party. If you read between the lines of my story, you can guess that there was something of a web of intrigue. It was embarrassing for me because our mutual friend was a male freind of mine, but had being a failed romantic interest for my N.

I was thinking that he party was a place to act out for her, fostering jealousy and causing resentment was the way I would interpret itm had she engineered the situation.

She was adamant it was just a coincidence he was there, how embarrassing for everone.

Of course the Narcissist think we are all idiots and they are so clever nobody will guess what they are ‘playing’ at.

I found out later tht she had made multiple enquires with multiple people in advance of the party to find out the guest list, in particular enquiring about our mutual aquaintance.

But I always think it’s better to use Shakespears motif with some game playing fool who thinks themselves clever, let than think it and ‘Say less than you knoweth’.

I’d uncovered her premeditated little game of manipulation, but i pretended I was fooled by it!!

I think it’s safe to say the Narc being in front of your car wasn’t a coincidence. Phil

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141. Lesley - August 12, 2012

Hi all,
I’m commenting at end of blog rather than direct to Donna/Chris/Phil because my wee offering takes in both coincidence and the Narc’s continuous need for supply..even previous supply!!!
My ex’s marriage broke down when his kids were tiny.He billed this to me as’his working away being a strain’.It wasn’t until near the end of my own relationship with him…two years in, that the real story emerged.(My ex actually had a 4 year affair with a mistress he had known since a teenager…it decimated his marriage.)
Fast forward to him and I.
Imagine a Sunday morning,reading the papers in bed.We have known each other 8 months. My ex announces casually that he has met by chance his ex mistress in’a supermarket,lets call her ‘Maggie’..he describes how old and haggard she looks and how(LOL)she seems to be walking with a limp…she is now it seems on the scrapyard of life… I say how sorry I am for this poor lady.
5 mins later, my ex announces that Maggie is actually going out with A ‘local artisan’…in fact, the man who has a cottage a stones throw away from where my ex lives.He says how sorry he will feel to see her limping in the street… I agree.
I do not give the conversation another thought because I am in love with him?
Until….when the shit hits the proverbial fan and I confront and am discarded…it turns out that Maggie and my ex have actually had a liaison or two when he was with me and indeed Maggie and my Narc have been having liaisons for a couple of decades!
The cover story,the limp,the supermarket and the artisan are all fabrication…a well thought out ploy by a Narc to cover Narcissistic
supply tracks.The artisan a stone mason, is actually gay and has been in a relationship with his partner for 11years…he has never heard of ‘Maggie’ but…..just in case I had seen her in the street or wondered why she would be in our neck of the woods…my ex had the story thought out…in advance,without compunction.
You know, I am not naive…it’s just that as ‘a normal’…I can’t do deceit like this? There were actually around three’Maggies’ in two years…
whilst I’was the love of his life’Ahem!
Maggie is actually the continual ‘fall-back’ girl to my ex,an instant narc supply.He thinks of her as’take-away’ or fast food. He never goes out in public with her nor does he esteem her.She is however amazingly important to the Narc because she is always, always there..
In terms of the recent debate…re coincidence, nope, I think most Narc’s arrange coincidence to suit their needs. In terms of ‘seeing a Narc again….’Ok if you walk on..if you stop and speak then you are feeding supply. Most normal people need and wholly deserve to be more than this.

Les,
I’m not sure I’ll ever look at a limping woman again and not think of this story. Someone will wonder why I’m laughing myself silly. LOL
Sounds like the N had much experience with creating a backstory, so as to cover his tracks. What a duplicitous a$$. (I don’t get to use words like that with my students, so I’ve got to get some out while I still have time.) And you’re right, “Maggie” is the consummate Fallback Girl, living on whatever crumbs he throws her. I’m hoping to finish reading “Mr. Unavailable and The Fallback Girl” in the next day or so and write the review. It deals so much with why women (in particular) accept less while expecting more. Each time you DO accept the crumbs you’ve proven shown that you deserve no better and this is duly noted by the N (or in the case of the book) Mr. Unavailable. Jan

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142. phil835 - August 12, 2012

Hi Les and all.

I couldn’t agree more with your sentiments. I may have indulged in many forms of self abuse over the years. To be honest, I can think of no form of self abasement worse, than remaining in any type of relationship with a Narc.

All of us are human, nobody is that invoilable tower of strength and integrity we might otherwise think we should be. I’ve indulged in self pity in the past, I dare say we all have? However, I’ve never been so self obsessed that I was unable to notice or care about the feelings of others. And to look inwards trying to find some type of salvation, based on how much I can ‘use’ and exploit other people as objects, just isn’t part of my make up as a human being.

However much my self esteem or sense of self worth has being debased over the years, either as a result of my own actions, others, circumstance or whatever else. Nothing I can think of can ‘top’ a voluntary realtionship with a Narc as the ultimate form of self abuse.

A Narc will keep any form of supply active in the background, until the last modicum has been extracted from it. Unfortunately, some people seem as though they are born victims? I may have been a victim, but I realised Im not happy wallowing in eternal victimhood. Some may?
The Narc has probably ‘identified’ you during some stage of your life when you had hit a low, perhaps? It happens to us all.

I may have found myself in a gutter at times, partly out of my own fault, partly other people and partly through circumstance. (I’ll not flatter myself by suggesting it was mainly the latter of the 3 either! 😉

But only if I was content living in the lowest gutter of battered self worth that there is, what better way than to indulge this masochism than voluntary spending your life with a Narc? Phil

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143. phil835 - August 12, 2012

Hi Les and to Chis, Donna, Jan. just want to add some more on Les’s post and from a practical standpoint. We are talking about how the narc engineers circumstance as though it were all random chance.

Reading your post Les, I couldn’t help but smile at your Narc’s lies when you were in bed together. Yes, it’s easy to be wise in hindsight, and through the filter of being ‘in love’ at the time, your perceptions to the truth were bound to have been skewed at that time.

I was never in love with my Narc to the extent I was blinded to truth, so perhaps that’s why I was better equipped to see through her? And the damage she did wasn’t so much a broken heart as much as damage to other parts of my life.

But back to Les in bed with her lying Narc. You know, the truth has an amazing spontaneity about it. And when your perceptions are attuned and any ‘instincts’ you may have about people are fully working, you can ‘always trust your gut’ on these things if you have that gift?

I’m smiling, because however good a liar somebody is, lies are invariably premeditated. Lies nearly always come in a package, but they certainly require the conscious thought of the liar.

I always knew my N was lying (not only because her lips were moving, and maybe that was enough in itself) 😉
But whenever she was about to talk about going somewhere, doing something, meeting someone and there was something disingenuous about her intentions……..
Regardless of how well she presented her lies or however convincing or plasable they were made to sound ….. the ‘timing’ of conversation is cause for suspicion in itself. The truth is so spontaneous it doesn’t require thinking about! Just my own observations. Phil

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snlgant - August 16, 2012

I agree, when it seems over the top and my questions muck up my N’s story… I have said this before and even posted a pic of a duck ,(if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ….. It IS a duck) . I literally laughed out loud when I read the exact quote in Jan’s initial story on, ‘Joe’. In my N.. …it IS a lie!

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144. phil835 - August 13, 2012

As an interesting aside, I thought I’d share this article with you all. It asks if Narcissists know they are Narcissists? Surprisingly the reseach suggests they have a degree of self awareness to know they are Narcissists. Earlier in the blog people were asking if it is worthwhile confronting a Narcissist with their Narcissism. This article suggests they already have an idea about themselves, but it is insufficient to warrant change. They like their arrogance and they perhaps prefer admiriation over being genuinely liked, the authors suggest.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-barry-kaufman/do-narcissists-know-they-_b_840894.html

And if I can remind you all of my brilliant Narcissistic injury I inflicted before I even knew what Narcissism was.

I told my Narc she was viewed by ‘others as ‘Pathetic, pitiful, and so hideously stupid that she was only talked about for the purpose of mockery and derision by others. Furthermore, nobody cared or was interested in her. To others she was an insignificant and inconsequential person, whose only worth in life was to make a massive fool of herself for the merriment of others!’

I somehow managed to shatter all her mirrors and completely undermine any possible attempt to turn negative into positive Narcissistic supply. Badass that I am! 😉 Phil

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-barry-kaufman/do-narcissists-know-they-_b_840894.html

I did read this in Huffpost last year and even bookmarked it, as I was waiting for it to “soon be published” in the Journal of Personal and Social Psychology. Thanks for reminding me as it’s all VERY interesting. I just went onto the journal, but there’s a fee to access the real deal. I’m not sure that’s necessary. Please note that that it’s “narcissists” that have a degree of self awareness, not those necessarily with NPD. From my experience, Ns don’t see narcissism as a bad thing. “This is just the way I am. Nothing is off limits for me,” said to excuse a myriad of inappropriate comments and behaviors. There is a lot self-justification and “spin” put on any incoming information they perceive as negative. When I told the N certain things about himself, I realized he’d been told this many times before. Yet it seemingly bounced off of him. He’d just go out and find someone “new” who had yet to see his true colors..until they got too close to the flame. Jan

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Lesley - August 13, 2012

Yes, I do think my ex had a degree of insight into himself. He was a clever man who kept on returning to the same relationship cul-de-sac…so to use his own words’He always disappointed women’…(LOL, I’ve told you why?)
When our relationship was over I saw a dating profile he had written(brought to my attention by a friend)…he said he’valued self awareness and excellence above all other qualities’!
His interpretation of self awareness was by and large ‘How not get caught out’ or to allow mask slippage.
That said, I saw him broken down a couple of times,stressed and afraid..but always in relation to himself.
It occurs to me that in the idealisation phase the Narc may actually over- estimate their capacity to love you or to have a fufilling relationship.They believe their own romantic hype?So they do feel disappointment acutely…and for a narc this means moving on,as Jan say’s quickly and efficiently.
I think it would be impossible for my ex,in mid- life with his established patterns of using people at work and home to dismantle his existence nor do I think he would want to..
Better to avoid further self- analysis and begin again with someone newer,more gullible…a new sticking plaster for any hurt.
Other people simply do not figure.
My ex misses me only in terms of what ‘he received from our relationship’…he does not feel remorse or empathy to my hurt,he cannot imagine how my life was affected.
So he is only self aware to the extent of how Narcissism affects
him!

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145. Lesley - August 13, 2012

Thanks for commenting…this is a memory I can already smile at(in terms of his predictability). You are so right when you say there is nothing accidental about Narcissistic lies…the lies often happen when your guard is down or you’ve had a nice day together etc
With regard to Maggie,she does deserve pity ,as I’m sure over the years she had been also told many tall stories and given promises. My ex could seemingly erase or change relationships at will…so I think Maggie had been told his marriage was over and perhaps did not even know of me?
Somatic Narcs actually do have ‘harems’…virtual or otherwise. I believe they need this to feel whole.They so fear abandonment that there needs to be another source of comfort.
I had the dubious honour of being the ‘acceptable’ face of the harem…described to others as his partner/fiancé.
There were other women who didn’t actually never see ‘the light of day’
Visit’s to his harem were determined by his need for control over me and other significant others in his life….if I challenged him or did not behave as he wished…cue visit..
I believe all somatic Narcs are wired this way.
In hindsight, and for other’s who fear that this may be happening to them…ask yourself does/did your Narc talk denigratingly or dispassionately about a work colleague,neighbour acquaintance…do they disparage them…but still mention them a lot?? It’s likely that
they are setting up new supply!
The motivation for this storecupboarding of supply is not actually sex,nor is it company. It is the maintenance of control.The Somatic Narcissist gets off on control in every aspect of his/her life.
I think Control equals Life-force for Somatics.

I’ve heard that it’s actually quite exhausting for the N to keep all these plates in the air spinning, to keep lies sorted out, and a virtual harem of women at arm’s length until they’re needed. Yet this is indeed how Ns they roll. The constant control of their supply is a full-time job, but it provides insurance that they’ll always have a warm bed to fall into. Jan

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Trapped - August 14, 2012

I recall the N I WAS associated with once saying that it wasn’t easy managing “two” women at once (although, in reality, it was much more than two). He said he was such a “busy” person that it was hard to give everyone the time they deserved. Yes, busy. He works no more than 20 hours a week. He also told me once, in a serious way, that he wished he could have his own “cult” or harem (I forgot the word he used) and that he would treat each woman very nicely, giving her all his attention when he was with her. Seriously. As I was listening to this, I imagined them all getting together, stringing him up by his “manhood” and beating the living daylights out of him.

I just found out from a friend that her son, who is in his mid-twenties and who takes lessons from this guy, said that the guy was sleeping with his friend’s mother as she was in the middle of a separation and suffering from alcoholism. Opportunist. He also said that the guy sleeps with everyone and that he would not let his own wife take lessons from him because he figured he would hit on her, rightly so.

Hearing that embarrassed the heck out of me. Luckily, no one ever saw me with that guy. I was one of the ones Lesley referred to above who “never saw the daylight”. It used to bug me then, but now I am thanking whatever powers that be are out there!

Yes, I believe I would be feeling the same sense of relief that I was one of the ones he kept in the cupboard and not out front on the lawn. It’s still degrading, but at least you haven’t been put on public display. I believe the “never saw the sunlight” reference will have to become part of the lexicon. Like squirrels, they have supply stashed EVERYWHERE. 🙂 Jan

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Trapped - August 14, 2012

He has called my office and left a few messages. Just picked up another one in which he said “This will be my last call. It seems that you don’t want to talk to me, which is a shame. Now the ball is in your court.”

Who wants to weigh in on whether or not this is truly “it?” I am having doubts, but also hating myself for letting that stupid phone call knock me off my center for a bit. I just have to keep replaying in my mind all the very shi**y things this guy has done or said to me to reinforce that if it truly is the last call, I should be rejoicing. Unfortunately, I cannot change my office phone number and cannot screen calls (no caller ID). But I have been not answering my phone the past few days, which I can’t do for too much longer.

So, guys, what do you think? Is this really it? Or is he just playing another card, trying to get me to break down and call him?

It’s never truly “it” as long as you respond. It’s like someone saying they’re going to commit suicide if you don’t call them. If you call, they’ve succeeded. They know you can be played. He’s already got you rattled, so it’s working isn’t it? If you want to be free of him using you, do NOT reply not even to tell him that you’re not interested. Ns hate to be ignored and it’s the only comeuppance you’ll ever get. You continue to not take calls and let them go to voicemail because it’s what you need and HAVE to do. This is as close as you get to “winning.” Sad but true. Always, Jan

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146. phil835 - August 13, 2012

Yes I agree Lesley, everything about a Narc is counter intuitive to your own perception of the world and how you interpret life and relationships.

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking, that the Narc is some type of nymphomaniac who craves multiple partners, for the purposes of a rich and varied diet of sexual gratification.

In my experience, everything is almost a complete opposite to what it appears on the surface. They are always with people and appear as though they need people and like company, Not so!!!! They need to use people which is why they around people, but they have no love, compassion or liking for people. They are bigger misanthropists than any hermit, yet they are surrounded with people!))

And it’s the same with sex. They are very auto-erotic. They don’t ‘make love’ to another person in an interpersonal way, they use people as sex aids to gratify themselves. And what difference one partner or 20, to a Narcissist people are like sex toys. Use one at one time, use a a different onr some other time, interchange several toys during the same experience (group sex). It really makes no difference to a Narc, there is nothing personal, everything is as though it is inanimate apart from the Narc themselves. It’s as thought they fail to or refuse to recognise life and other people outside themselves. They have no respect for people as sentient beings. This is why they appear thoughtless, unable to empathise and entitiled to use and abuse as they see fit.

Turn a dark mirror on a Narcissist and give them their own medicine, then you will see some tears! They have the tenderest and most sensitive of emotions, but only for themselves!

They will operate in the most cunning and dispassionate of ways, but only to keep their supppies active and in their appropriate places. The Narc doesn’t like threats or any sense of not being in control of their hosts. Phil

“In control of their hosts” is a great analogy because of their parasite-like ability to coax their host to let down its defenses at the beginning. The N gains entry and then feeds off the host. Jan

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147. Chris - August 13, 2012

Jan, in answer to your questions, yes, I had seen the N as he entered the store and I do believe he saw me though we did not lock eyes, and also as we were leaving. Yes, he knows my car.

Phil, I have to say I enjoyed reading your beat down on your N. I know that would be a sad thing to say if your beat down was in regard to a ‘normal,’ but I think the distress/agony we’ve experienced from our Narcs make us enjoy the beat down of a Narc if even vicariously.

Les, thanks for posting at the end as I normally don’t scroll back up and a reply up there would be lost to me. I’m new to this type of blog set up!

Chris,
This summer for the first time EVER my blog seems to have turned into a forum!:) It’s not something I intended as I don’t have the time or inclination to manage a forum. Four years ago I was on forums at Careplace (?) and MSN. The format was when one person raised a question or needed to share, others would offer up their own experiences. It seems that you can post a direct response to someone’s comment attached to that comment or you just submit the comment and say who it’s for. I’ve received HUNDREDS of comments this summer, and I often have difficulty finding my way around my own blog. 🙂 Always, Jan

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148. phil835 - August 13, 2012

Hi Les, I have some more thoughts on your post. I want to expand my ideas and tell you my own feelings about what I think is happeneing in the mind of a Narc. I think that a Narc is a very pragmatic and practical type of abuser. They have feelings for themselves, but for themselves only. People exist, but other people’s feelings are not even considered or even contemplated by a Narc. The feelings of others just don’t matter, only a Narc’s feelings are important. To treat all ‘other’ people as objects is how they as Narcissists view the world. But inevitably, the unfortunate consequences of other people showing emotions, demandng respect and requiring some validity of their own existence, is an unfortunate dilemna for the Narcissist. For the Narcissist, other peoples ‘rights’ to self and individual needs are a massive hindrence, they just get in the way of what a Narcissist wants!

I want to take you into the mind of a sadist. Just to demonstrate that I don’t think the Narc ‘gets off’ on anything to do with the emotions of other people, or even recognises them.

If you are a sadist, then imagine that you get pleasure from inflicting pain on another person. Perhaps you even empathise with your victim to ‘have a sense’ of the pain they feel, thereby extracting some type of pleasure from ‘knowing the pain of your victim?

Now you’re a sadist, I’d like you to go into your garden and inflict some pain on a Stone. Whip it, torture it, and abuse the stone in your garden and try to extract some pleasure from making a stone feel pain. Pointless isn’t it? The stone can’t feel pain, therefore you can extract no sadistic pleasure from tortururing a stone.

My feelings are this. To a Narcissist, people are props and inanimate. A stone is inanimate also, a person is about as significant as a stone to a narcissist. A narcissist doesn’t abuse people to gain pleasure from the pain they inflict, they just ‘use’ people in a very pragmatic and inpersonal way. The byproduct of a Narcissist’s abuse is the pain they unwittingnly inflict on others.

Now the Narcissist must have some sense that, it is a misfortune that the people who they use for utilitarian reasons may suffer hurt. These inanimate objects often develop a conscience and demand rights, recognition etc. The Narcissist is being pragmatic. He’s like a child with a box of toys. He plays with a toy and discards it. Then he picks up the next toy. There is no ‘favoutite toy or room for sentiment in the mind of the Narc. If a toy in the box starts to demand favour and attention, that isn’t the part of the deal. Toys are there for the gratification of the Narc, there is no two-way relationship in the purpose of the existence of toys. Come Christmas, there will hopefully be even more toys, to use and discard at will, however the Narc sees fit.

So in a way, as much as the Narc may appear to be extracting or ‘getting off’ on control of his toys, He isn’t really getting pleasure by putting toys he’s bored with back in the box to disparage or denigrate. The toy was supposed to be inanimate and it got ‘up itself’ so it was put back in its place.

A sadist feels pleasure from emotions of others outside themselves. The Narc only cares about emotions within themselves, the emotions of others are just an inconvenience for the Narc. Neither a source of pleasure or pain. Phil

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Lesley - August 13, 2012

Hi Phil, I guess I agree with part of what you say here..they generally only respond to emotions within themselves and much of
the M.O of a somatic is pragmatic…convenient supply.
But for me your answer is too black and white.
Narcissists sit within a cluster that includes Psychopathy and Borderline personality types(they often bleed into one another!) and subjectively I know that my ex did derive great pleasure from balancing the plates or lining up his toys..in fact the process of remaining in control of this process was everything to him.Verbally,through lies and physically through infidelity…he proved to himself his status in the world.
In fact ‘to lose control of this would have meant insanity'(to quote reluctantly from Vankin)
The process of denigration,particularly verbal denigration and name-calling is life blood to a Narc.It’s more than pleasure it is a tool of survival…
I also disagree that all props are the same to a narc…there are keepers and instant fixes. He will invest more in the keeper this may even show itself in extreme possessiveness or obsessive jealousy( my ex was very jealous yet unfaithful?).
He cared not a whit about his ‘instant fixes’ these were interchangeable.
Here’s a link to how a Narcissistic Individual may show himself verbally(sadly not sure the blog is still active?)…the examples are spot on and show the need to assert control over others/situations. These verbals are for me(possibly for you too Jan?)…a dead giveaway that a Narc’s around.

http://thinklikeablackbelt.com/blog/three-ways-a-narcissist-can-take-control/

Les,
This is the first time I’ve seen this site and sadly, it seems to have gone dark since April 2011. I wanted to add this post from the site
“Five Traits of a Narcissist Crazymaker.”
There is a lot of verbal gymnastics involved. The N in my life had a way of saying/doing the most cruel things and then saying. “Hey, but nobody got hurt.” To his eyes, there was no blood and HE wasn’t hurting. It’s also a way to dismiss any genuine emotional feelings you have because they don’t want to go THERE. Your ex N’s dating profile sounds exactly like something the N I knew would write about himself. LOL Jan

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149. phil835 - August 13, 2012

Hi Les,

That’s a brilliant article you linked. I want to talk more about it soon, I have so much to say on it and there is so much truth in it.

Back to my previous post and my own black and white thinking, I think my ideas and explanations come accross as beng overly siimplistic also. When I’m trying to unravel a complex blur of ideas. If some concepts are getting confused with each other, I do a splitting of ideas to unravel one from the other and delineate the two. As you correctly point out, reality is not as simple or black and white as what I make it sound. But I think it helps to start off by drawing distintions between seperate ideas/concepts, then blending them back together again. It’s just my way of explaining and making sense of things.

Back to what you said about all not all props being the same to a Narc. I agree fully with your ideas, my own explanations used in my previous post didn’t take account of this. I was more making the point that the Narc has no emotional attachment or love invested in any props. That doesn’t mean that all props are therefore the same (And reading my old post this may be implied)

A better example may be the difference between a $10 and a $20 bill.
I value a $20 bill more than a $10 bill. If they were Narcissistic supply instead of bank notes, then one has ‘more in it than the other’
BUT, the point I was trying to get accross, is that the $10 and $20 bills mean nothing to me in themselves, they are just printed paper notes in my wallet. I don’t feel emotional attachment to one particular $10 or $20 bill in particular, they obviously have different values though and one is ‘more precious’ than the other. If I lose a $10 note I may cry, if a lose a $20 I may cry twice as hard, that could be seen as emotional attachment to that particular peice of paper by a confused observer from outer space? However, as soon as I’m re-embursed with another two banknotes of equal or more value, I’m suddenly happy again, There’s no emotional attachment to people in a Narc as there is for the rest of us. People are just ‘supply’. The point I’m making is that the Narc doesn’t attach any emotional value or love to people, he places Narcissistic supply value to people. Some people offer more supply than others. Generally, the more supply you have the better, whether or not it is in 5, 10 or 20 notes of denonimation. That’s why I don’t through away $5 bills or loose change! 😉

Let me go back to the scenario I told Donna about with my Narc, and our mutual aquaintance at the party. I have a male friend who was a failed romantic interest for my Narc. He was interested in her romantically at one point, then he abandoned her and moved on to another partner. Once he was a source of Narcissistic supply for her, later he wasn’t giving her any attention at all.
Now when she engineered the meeting at the party, I at first imagined she was trying to make him jealous and cause emotional hurt for sadistic purposes. I mistakenly thought her motives were revenge.
Once I finally understood Narcissism I realised what she was doing and why. She had me for Narcissistic supply already, our mutual friend was an old source which had dried up. The engineered meeting wasn’t designed to cause emotional hurt in our mutual friend per se (although that was a byproduct of it). Her purpose was to re-animate an old source of NS. In getting a ‘rise’ out him, he validated her existence and it gave her extra Narcisstic supply to think yet another person notices and thinks about me!!
Yes she is being controlling and manipulative. It is sadistic, but it isn’t sadistic for the sake of being sadistic. The hurt she causes is a byproduct. Yes she deliberately causes emotional hurt to get a rise, but it’s attention that she needs most of all in any form whatsoever. Phil

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150. phil835 - August 13, 2012

And to Jan and Les on your two links. WOW, these two articles put together beautifully sum up much of the peronality, tactics and lfestyle of my Narc. And there’s a distinct lack of psychobabble in both articles, which is very refreshing. There’s so much to be said for plain English at times!
To sum up on the ideas of my last posts. I think a The Narc is a contolling, manipulator who actively denigrates and deliberately causes emotional harm for utilitarian reasons. Part of me initially thought that there was sadistic pleasure in these activities for their own sake? I actually think these tactics are used for the sake of ‘balancing plates’ and controlling the availability and sustainabillity, of continued and increased Narcissistic Supply. One of the reasons a narc is so paranoid, is that he realises how much evil he perpetrates in manipulating his supplies to their appropriate places, then adjusting them to their required supply levels. There is nothing static here, it’s an ever changing battlefied requiring direct and constant intervention, with frequent changes of tactics when necessary from our beloved Field Marshal Narcissist))

Your article on language shows up the Narc beautifully Les. There’s so much stealth involved in the tactics of a Narc, that to ‘react’ to their stealthy forms of manipulation and agression would make us seem like the crazy ones. My favourite mantra is that they inflict ‘the death of a thousand cuts’ on us.

Also in the language of a Narc, apart from it being constructed for the purposes of manipulation. There is a real sense of their gandiosity, and haughtiness. They reveal so much more about themselves, than they ever acheive as being the manipulators or educators they credit themselves as. Phil

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Lesley - August 14, 2012

Hi there,
Just checked that site again and the emotional predators stuff is good too.
I think Narc’s often use language of educating people or stooping to your level. My ex would often say he was just ‘trying to help out’ when he was actually being extremely malicious.
He saw himself as being the most intellectual within his crowd but would cover this by saying’he was self-deprecating’.
Sometimes he would show rage if someone caught him out or knew more than him. We were in the Met Museum last year and I got talking to an elderly man about an exhibit..
I repeated the conversation to my ex. His face darkened and he said’Why would I listen to anything you and that old coot have been saying…your minds are rubbish!’
It was as if a veil had been lifted and the ‘nasty’ portrait revealed.
Afterwards he couldn’t ‘recall’ having said this…he erased it from his mind and thought I should do the same.
I think Jan had a lot of this with Joe…verbal twists and turns that leave you reeling and saying’What the eff just happened there’

Light Shine,
Les

I actually wrote out an entire list of the bizarre things Joe said to me, so I’d have a record. When I go back and reread it now, I break out laughing. Jan

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Trapped - August 14, 2012

Love how they have this ability to not recall things. As you said, I think it is because they are so busy with their harem that they can’t recall what they said to whom. I was thinking about that this morning, how he would often repeat things to me that I’d heard before or ask “have you seen what I’ve done here?” about something in his place, when I was the one who helped him do it in the first place!!

Yes, they’re so busy managing their narcissistic harem that they can’t remember who they’ve told what to. Also, Ns (the one I knew was cerebral) don’t pay close attention to what you’re saying/doing (unless you’re feeding their false self). It’s not that they don’t remember something – they never heard it in the first place! I believe Joe also would say he didn’t remember something just to watch my reaction. Then if I attempted to tell him again, he would say it really didn’t matter. Jan

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MillyRad - August 14, 2012

Ugh! This just reminded me of something: I was at a small art opening with my ex friend. The artist was actually his own next door neighbor. We were together looking at a drawing of a mostly nude woman with tattoos collaged all over her body. He started talking about how ugly he thought it was and that tattoos, especially on women, we’re disgusting. It’s not an uncommon opinion for someone to have, EXCEPT that I, myself, have several tattoos myself and my husband owns and operates a successful tattoo shop. After he expressed his disgust, I felt about 2 inches tall. I was wishing I could just disappear into a crack in the floor. I was simultaneously wondering if I’d heard him correctly or misunderstood. Later on that night, after I finally let my ears believe what they’d heard, I was so angry. Why would my friend insult my family that way? How horribly mean. But I felt like I couldn’t say anything to him about it because I should have said something as soon as he made the comment, and that I’d just be starting an argument by bringing it up later. So frustrating! His current girlfriend has at least two tattoos, one of them on her wrist where the whole world can see it. *gasp!*

I don’t have any tattoos, but my older son not only has lots, but did that as a living for a time. Whatever your feeling about them, you’d have to be a blithering idiot to make such a comment/condemnation as let’s face it, many tattoos are hidden from public view. It’s a bit like bear baiting – poking you whilst knowing you’re too polite to take issue with their comment. What I found was that some of these brash comments are so surprising/shocking that you’re still trying to process them (“Did I hear that correctly?”) while the N has already moved on. It’s lobbing a verbal Molotov cocktail then running for cover. Jan

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phil835 - August 14, 2012

Hi Millyrad,

I’m not fan of tattoos on men or women, but that’s not issuse here. I got everything you said about the tone and delivery and how innapropriate the language was. As if deliberately intended to humiliate and offend!
So many times this happened to me, and exactly the same as with you. I was often so stunned with disbeleif that I failed to offer a reaction at the time. There are some things that I would hope common sense dictates are unspeakably innapropraite. And when you hear them, part of the shock is why would anyone think (or not think, perhaps) to say such things? I was always making excuses for her, thinking “oh well perhaps she just opened her mouth before she put her brain in gear. And no point causing a fight over it, I don’t want to make someone feel like their treading on eggshells around me.” etc etc.
And it was partly embarrassment I didn’t react when I ought to have. I thought to myself, I really ought not to be confronting this type of thing, so I’ll call it a one off and forget about it.
The problem is, all those little ‘one offs’ add up eventually … then they are just seemingly inconsequential wounds in ‘the death of a thousand cuts’ as I call it. Phil

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phil835 - August 14, 2012

Hi Millyrad,

Something else I’ve just remembered. And yes she was duplicitious in the extreme. Some of it deflied beleif.

Out of interest, when you said this it reminded me of something.

“But I felt like I couldn’t say anything to him about it because I should have said something as soon as he made the comment, and that I’d just be starting an argument by bringing it up later.”

One time, I attempted to have a clear the air talk with her. An open and frank discussion where everything causing hurt could be brought out into the open, discussed, forgiven and then forgotten about, or so I hoped.

When I attempted this, I belatedly brought up something similar to your tattoo issue, to highlight an example of an overall behavour that I wanted her to make some effort to remedy, or at least acknowledge. i.e. not to be so thoughtless and insensitive.
And her reply when I made reference to one of these incidents was this ‘because you never made reference to it at the time, it doesn’t count now and you have no right to make reference to it. Therefore, I will disregard that incident as a valid point for discussion’

There was absolutely no willingness to admit to a wrong in retrospect, even though I was partly to blame for not saying anything at the time. Her logic was, I don’t care if it was wrong because you never mentioned anything at the time, therefore it was acceptable behavour.
The childishness of it was unbeleivable. It was like, that’s one point to me, unlucky!

And as for duplicitious, it defied beleif! One time, she decided that I drink too much and she wanted me to give up. It was part of the many reforms she saw I was in need of!
And so I gave up drinking, which is quite easy for me. The same evening we were having a walk, she was desperate to get to the liquor store because she wanted and felt like a vodka. Of course if she drinks, that’s in moderation. If I drink, that’s excessive. And while I took the oath of temperance, she was every night knocking back bottles of cheap vodka by the half litre! You couldn’t write it!! 😉 Phil

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151. phil835 - August 14, 2012

Hi Les,

You bring so many memories. They are exremely malicious and patronising in their language. My Narc was particulary prone to showing her contempt of and for people in her language.
However, one thing I noticed was that she didn’t have the courage of her own intellect, or any ability to develop her own ideas or thoughts independantly. If an ‘expert’ had said something, then it had credibility and validity, purely because they were the thoughts and ideas of high status people.

And your visit to the art gallery has made me think of some very funny thoughts. What I’ve notiveced, is that as much as the Narc is patronising, self righteous and full of contempt for people. They are actually the most intellectually weak and gullable people themselves. Their gullability often springs from a need for the flattery of their false self.

If I was at the same art gallery with my Narc, I could play a very cruel trick on her and it would work beautifully. If I was get some friend of mine (unknown the Narc) to approach us while looking at some painting, then introduce hinself as ‘ The Curator of the Art gallery’ with a Phd in the Art History’ ……. Let him talk utter shit about some painting for 10 minutes, making up the most outlandish and rootless observations. And skillfully depart after ‘edifying’ us with his knowledge and insight.

Now I could then say my Narc ‘Darling, Curator or not, I thought he was coming out with some ideas I found very hard to reconcile!’
I’m 100% certain she would give me a disgusted look, then point out that he was an art expert and knew what he was talking about, and my thougts had no validity because I wasn’t an ‘expert’ 😉 Phil

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152. Chris - August 14, 2012

Jan, I’m active on a forum where the most recent post shows up at the end of the page, even if you have quoted someone who posted previously in the thread (both their quote and your comment show up at the end) so I’m just used to that format. It’s SMF or something. I’m grateful your blog is here no matter what the format! 🙂

Phil, regarding your narc’s “you didn’t say anything at the time so it can’t be wrong” is exactly along the lines of what our narc said! This stuff is unbelievable but I do realize truth is stranger than fiction because if someone wrote this stuff as fiction, people would think it’s so out there they would reject it as too absurd to give their attention to.

Jan, would you be willing to post some of the nutty things Joe said? I would like to post some of the things that our narc has said in the past while we were cordial, but they are so crazy (along the lines of magical thinking and lies) I’m afraid they are too identifying. So obviously I understand if you can’t post some of yours.

I realize that some people press the Reply at the end of your comment while others just add their comment as a separate comment that can then appear a ways down from the original post. This will be known as The Summer of Continuous Comments, so if you post, you might want to remember your comment number as there might be comments on that OR at the end. 🙂 I don’t use Reply to post my own comments as my face would be appearing all over the place. I write mine through the Comment Edit ap.
Yes, some of the bizarre things he said might have revealed his identity. But I shall scrounge around in the midst all of of my school piles and see if I can locate some for the sake of demonstrating the “insanity.” 🙂 Jan

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153. Lesley - August 14, 2012

Trapped, you have to get real with yourself here. This man is a Narc.You know he is a Narc.You have given us examples…
Only those who are Masochists,Learning Disabled,Narc’s themselves or suffering from a sister personality disorder stay in a situation like you have described. This man had a harem and had you cleaning for him and getting out of the way before the next woman came in….!!!He told you the details of his harem….You are not in the dark. You know what he is.
He doesn’t want you he just wants the buzz of knowing you’ll respond…
If it’s a problem at work,tell a colleague or your boss.People change extensions all the time…
I’m not sure about the question you are asking? When you are saying is this it? Do you mean is it the end? Hopefully, it is.That depends on you,not him.
A man like this will not continue to pursue you if you dry up his source…
Remember they thrive on drama…so step away from the drama.
I was going to say I wish you luck but that’s wrong… you just have to continue what you are doing and stick to this new path.

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phil835 - August 14, 2012

Hi Trapped, sorry I missed your earlier posts. I’ll add this at the end for convenience, others just read up the blog to see original posts by Trapped.
I’ll avoid being judgemental about your circumstances, Lesley is right in what she says.
I’ll hold off preaching to you, because I know that there are no liberties a Narc won’t take, there is no dignity they won’t strip a person of it you let them. The only limits on a Narc is what they can get away with. However big a doormat my Narc ever comes accross is the only limit to the amount of liberties she will take.

Get out fast and cut off all forms of supply. These people will suck the last ounce of life blood from you, then step over your corpse on route to their next victim.
They are dangerous on so many levels. They will poison your life in so many ways. Physically, mentally and emotionally on a personal level. on a social level they will poison your relationship with other people. They are a health hazard and must be treated as such.
I avoided the type of abuse you are going through on a personal level, I have limits and I put the brakes on that form of abuse.
Why am I still talking on the forum and here now? A Narc has to act out on a Social level. I got a ‘metaphorical; knife in the back thanks to her ‘playing’ and acting out on a social level, I was unable to prevent that one. We all talk from bitter experience. Do yourself a favour, out some distance between you and N, then work on earning your self respect back by setting some tougher ‘limits’ on what you will tolerate. Phil

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154. Donna - August 14, 2012

Hello Trapped, I have not followed your story very closely however it has been my experience, that when their mask slips off you will never see the wonderful man you first met. Mine was an emotional abuser and user. He was only my friend “Thank my lucky stars” but also caused me emotional pain and anger. He duped me and I was the caring, compassionate, availabe friend. So as many others have expressed here you are wasting your precious, time, energy and feelings on a man that will not care about you back whether you are a lover or a friend. He doesn’t know how to love or care about anyone but himself. He is getting his kicks out of keeping you on a short chain that he can yank at will.

I so remember telling a friend that I will never let another man in my life that doesn’t care about me, have mutual respect for me and I certainly don’t want to be girl #2 or have to share my man with other women.

I wish you a path to getting out and moving on, you are worth and deserve so much more from a man in your life. Donna

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Trapped - August 16, 2012

Thank you, Leslie, Phil, and Donna. Yes, I am fully aware of all the things you’ve told me. Despite what it sounds like here, I have not had any physical contact with the guy for six months now. We saw each other last weekend, after he had been stalking outside my place and I was on my way out. I had a very weak moment, but had other committments which kept me in line. I was angry at myself for almost getting sucked in. As I said, I’ve changed almost every point of contact this guy has to reach me, except my work phone. I work for a government agency and to change the number isn’t as easy as just flipping a switch, (if any of you have ever worked for the gov’t, you know) and I am a very private person-I do not want to bring this up with my co-workers.

Phil, there is plenty of distance now between me and this jerk. Donna, his mask slipped off a long time ago and my relationship with him has been purely one of love/hate/denial, now in the past 6 months, finally just centering on disgust. It has been a long process. The rest of my life is A-OK and when I went to the therapist the first time, she was blown away that someone like me (professional, mother, philanthropist, charity worker, straight A grad student, athlete, etc) would be at all ever sucked in by someone like him. My life has always been centered around givng.

It happens. I am a single female. I am middle aged. I am lonely at times, even though I barely have a minute to sit and breathe in my life. I have plenty of men who would love to date me, but I have no interest, especially now. So, in a nutshell, that is where I am. I will get over this. I am not sure how long it will take, but it seems I am going in the right direction. I have never gone this drastic (changing all my contact information) but I have to say it feels good and like a relief. When my cell phone rings, I don’t get that sucked in feeling anymore because I know it can’t be him. When I open up my e-mail, I know I don’t hve to worry about something hitting me in the gut. The only opening is that stupid phone at work. I’ll be out of the office and out of town again now for another week and a half, so hopefully, by the time I return he will have disappeared. And if he hasn’t, I am hoping a week and a half will give me enough strength to tell him to f* off if he happens to call that number (no caler ID, as I said).

Other than that, I am looking at a job in Guam, and possibly the Peace Corps. I think I have pretty good instincts by now to spot one of these men from a pod, so if I ever think I’d like another “relationship” again (which at this point, I totally do not), I hopefully will avoid round #2 with another one.

Thanks for all your support. I don’t mind getting hit over the head. The more it happens, the more awake I become. I literally was hit in the face a month ago when I returned from a trip to Pakistan and fell on it, breaking every bone around an eye. It is almost healed now, still a little black and blue, but a good reminder when I look in the mirror that I need to take care of ME, too.

Sometimes the more times we’re hit on the head, the more awake we become (while for others this simply beats them down). I’ve found that when you get to the point that you’re disgusted by their behavior, it’s easier to let go of the “good times” and move on.
And just think, when you look in the mirror, you can see your actual reflection, not a projection, but the real YOU. It all sounds good.:) Jan

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Donna - August 16, 2012

Trapped, I am so proud of you even though you didn’t need it from me. You are truly putting yourself in a my powerful place and that is a very good move. We all here are caring, loving, intelligent folks and we all got duped. Good for you for your efforts to move on… He/they can’t get in if our walls are strong. Take Care, Donna

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155. snlgant - August 16, 2012

Oh My God !
Your piece is the answer to a 13 year prayer. The name, ‘Joe’ could be replaced with,’Scott’ and now my insane marriage makes sense. I have prayed and agonized and even become physically sick with hormone issues …..cortisol, thyroid and yes even early menopause (ie: more hormone issues). No kidding, I prayed tonight that if God truly loved me, he would zap Scott or give me something. I don’t sleep well at night, so I got up and just started a general search on sexual issues with husbands. One site led to another and eventually I was astounded to read your blog which have biographyed the last 13 confused and wasted years of my turned upside down inside out and twisted every which way but loose life.
Dear God, thank you! For this blog! I almost forgot that I am a deserving human being.
Oh the questions I have and things I can share….. I am working on my bachelors degree in nursing, go figure… I am an LPN for 26 years with a license in respiratory therapy for 25 years. I never saw this train coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am still alive, so there is hope…….

Yes, there is hope! My sister-in-law (Comment #27 on this thread) was married to a cerebral narcissist for 14 years. She was a divorced mom of one when they met. When I asked when this side of him emerged, she didn’t hesitate. “The day after we were married.” I worried from afar while she endured his “Death by a Thousand Cuts” through his hot and cold behavior. Verbal sniping alternated with The Silent Treatment. We only saw one another at family events over those years, so I was surprised when she read “Close Encounter with a Narcissist” and said felt like I must have been a fly on the wall of her marriage. The N’s MO is remarkable similar. They’re either the town dog who has a virtual harem of supply on speed dial, or they’re an expert who dismisses your thoughts then eventually your self esteem and spirit. For cerebrals, they delight they get off on withholding sex. My sister-in-law said to count the number of times they’d had sex, you only needed to count the children – eight!
There are highly educated people out there who meet up with a N and don’t know what hit them. Just read some of the comments from readers. There’s a world of hurt – people who realized they’d been used and abused for years (all the while wondering what on earth they’d done to deserve to be treated like this). The N never changes, but the good news is that you can! Now you know what you’re dealing with. Welcome. Jan

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snlgant - August 23, 2012

I absolutely love this blog and appreciate every detail shared by every blogger. Since the shock after reading this blog that I am NOT crazy, I have stepped back from the “love-get-slaughtered-truck” regarding my N and see things from a factual no nonsense place. Finally, the lies and verbally abrupt and absurd shock statements just don’t defeat me like before. The Bible says, “Get Wisdom”. I fit the ‘Madonna’ slot in my N’s life. I feel freed, then, I’m still married to the psycho and wondering what next? I gave up my position as DON of a private duty nursing agency at his request where I made more money than him. He owes me my degree ! If God will maintain my sanity, I plan on turning the table on him and using him instead.

Yes, there’s a lovely bunch of people who comment and share the pain of what they’ve been through and gain insight and strength from others. It goes to show that Ns often target caring people as they want to bask in the bright light they radiate. I can see how you’d want to get payback (literally), but you also need a plan as to how to exit the toxic relationship. Sometimes you don’t even realize how much you’ve been weighted down, until you’re out from under. Jan

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snlgant - August 24, 2012

Jan, I do have a question. I’ll make a couple of statements before, in hopes that I make sense. My mother-in-law said that she has the same type of ‘feelings’ as Scott Nd has to pray everyday before she gets up to control it…… Uh, not so much. She goes from church to church doing the same things. ID a need, go all out, assume control, tie up and find oppressors (?) offensive, the victim and off to another state and another more understanding church. Also, she says that her dad was a very mean man whom she doesn’t remember. ??? She is just as confusing and hard to follow. All natural born grand children, pretty much apathetic facial expressions. Like robots without brains. She raised her daughters daughter…. Totally will not make a decision with out Mother in laws ok. Scott has a son from a previous marriage. Thank God there are no more. The same with Type of paranoid pretend freak show display of emotion for the very apathetic child who is now 17, has only had two girlfriends and the first broke up after only 5 days because he got mad at her for something small :-/ whatever that meant bcz he didn’t want to talk about it…..go figure. I am not positive if ‘T’ has full blown issues except to say that he lies a mile a minute and Scott protects everything he says. Oh by the way, I remember when we dated only 2 months before she told Scott I was the one and we got married. His mom told him to get custody immediately …… They moved into my house, and it’s been he’ll ever since. How genetic can this be?

Whoa. I’ve been dealing with 3rd graders all day, so I’m trying to wrap my brain around what it is you’re trying to say/ask me? Are you wondering if this is a familial trait? It sounds a bit like generations of dysfunction. I deal with the children who are the products of these dysfunctional relationships daily. What exactly is it you want to know/or think you do? Jan

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snlgant - August 25, 2012

Our last counselor this past November 2011 said the Scott suffers from borderline personality disorder. This very detailed blog completely clears this dx up for me. I have a goal in mind to get out of this emotional prison. I have actually utilized a couple of mirror removing techniques. Man the stuff works. Leaves him speechless and my nerves intact. I have started to look at this in a more wheel and cog way. So I guess my next actual question is about where this stuff came from and is it the reason genetically that his mother, son and niece exhibit similar traits. I don’t have to live with his mom or niece, but they all act very similar together. The mother is the strangest of all ( besides Scott’s obvious N issues ) could the majority of the family have a genetic predisposition for it ? You see the two grand children were not raised in the same state and act identical. One is 22 the other my stepson, 17. Very very weird to observe. When I get out of this mess, it will probably take me a WHILE to recover . Everyday until then, I Pray not to lose the compassion I was born with. I just didn’t see any of this coming, and don’t ever want to have to deal with this again! I guess, trying to know who, what, when, where, I know why, how ? You know. Sorry I reeead my earlier post and realize I was thinking way faster than I was typing.

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156. Chris - August 16, 2012

I’m also not familiar w/trapped’s story but I am glad she found some extra strength here. And snlgant, not that I’ve been here long, but welcome! This is the only N blog or board I’ve joined and it’s very eye-opening and comforting.

Question for all: Does anyone have good info or experience 😦 with a person who has been diagnosed as bi-polar but not narcissism but as you put pieces together, you think they are bi-polar AND N?

This is a whole different guy than the one I’ve been talking about! UNREAL.

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MillyRad - August 17, 2012

It’s entirely possible that a person can have NPD and Bipolar. What does tend to happen, though, is for Cluster B folks (the classification that includes NPD, BPD, And antisocial behavior) to be mistakenly diagnosed as Bipolar. They may seek treatment for anxiety or depression and because they have a “cycling” of moods they they’re given a diagnosis of Bipolar. The “cycling” associated with Bipolar, however, occurs on a much longer time frame than the “drop of a hat” mood shifts that seem to happen with people with cluster B traits. I believe that this was the case with my ex friend: NPD/BPD misdiagnosed as bipolar.

I’ve heard that sometimes a doctor will purposely “misdiagnose” cluster B personality disorders because many insurance companies will not cover their treatments, but will cover treatment for bipolar. Also, quite often, personality disordered people find benefits in taking antidepressants/mood stabilizing drugs- they can take the edge off of things.

Yes, those who are bi-polar tend to enjoy the manic phased and only seek medical help when they are depressed. They’re only treating 50 percent of the problem. It’s entirely possible for someone to be both, but yikes that would be hard to sort out. We know someone who’s now in his 80s who’s bipolar and has been taking meds for years. My husband worked with him and could tell the days when he wasn’t taking his meds. Those with bipolar do tend to have their cycles, some longer than others and don’t typically turn on a dime the way those with Cluster B disorders do. Jan

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Donna - August 17, 2012

Chris, my heart goes out to You, and Trapped my exn friend admitted to me that he was diagnosed as Bi-polar early on, which sent me another signal not to get in a personal intimate relationship with him. All my sick self wanted to be was a caring supportive friend and he duped me as well. After reading so much it appears to me that my friend suffers from multiple personality issues. I certainly don’t know the medical/psych defintions. I don’t have the time to invest in any more research/ it’s time to send him on Godspeed…….

One word – comorbidity. Jan

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phil835 - August 17, 2012

All, It’s a real minefield trying to categorise peronality disorders, many symptoms in isolation are often the same indicators accross several categories. One PD comorbid with another might offer a better overall explanation in many instances.

I think a Narcissist will spiral into depression and seek therapy/ antidepressants only if the following conditions are met: There has been an unexpected and unlegislated for interuption in Narcissistic Supply, whereby adequate future replacements haven’t been properly sourced in time, or are unavailable/of an insufficient type.
This could be at the end of a relationship, but most Narcissists are excellent logistal planners, they have usually sourced their future supply before their inevitable abandonment.

So when things really go wrong for Narcissist, they’ll sob their hearts out in therapy complaining of depression and may use anti-depressents for a quick lift. Depression for a Narcissist means loss of or lack of Narcissistic supply. Anti – depressants have a very limited efficacy though. The good news is that the Narcissist is easy cured. Once theyeventually find a new source of Narcissistic supply their ‘depression’ is miraculously cured and they are all happy again.
That’s the reason why they keep multiple sources of supply and have emergency back up contingency plans. Phil

The Narcissist’s medicine cabinet is stocked with…people. Jan

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157. Lesley - August 17, 2012

Hi everyone,
Chris just wanted to say that I agree entirely with what Milly Rad has said to you. There can often be a misdiagnosis of Bi-polar because the Narc may seem almost manic when he’s idealising someone,on a high..and then as Phil suggest present with depression because he has lost his Narc supply and or he may be getting older…supply is harder to come by…This may happen every few months or even weeks hence it seems Bi Polar like in it’s highs and lows?
However, in my experience people who are actually Bi Polar,are not any more likely to be Narcissistic than the rest of us.
My brother in law has had bi- polar disorder for many years and is very well controlled through his meds,he’s a lovely kind guy,holds down a good job etc..He also has great insight into his condition.
Borderline Personality Disorder BPD however is a real possibility.
A borderline will actually often exhibit Narc Traits( actually part of the symptom criteria?)mood instability,attention seeking behaviour,self-centredness,angry out bursts,paranoia,hyper-sexuality,periods of depression,blaming others..
As I have said before and as Jan points out…these Cluster B disorder’s can really bleed into on another..
A distinguishing characteristic may be that a Bi Polar person may seek help because they know something isn’t right,likewise someone with deep depression or even Borderline may begin to understand how they are affecting other people and enter therapy to change.
A Narc traited individual will not.
If someone has NPD or even strong Narc Traits they will not think they need help. Everyone else is the problem,not them.
To be honest a true Narc,with his grandiosity and ‘I know best’ mentality would not stoop to admit he was disordered. They shun such labels.Mental Illness is for someone else…not them?

And when Narcissists ask for help, they then devalue the person who helped them. They don’t like being viewed as deficient in any area and of course they DO know best. I did see Joe in the Idealization phase when he was pursuing a woman who had flat out told him she wasn’t interested in him. It was like he was walking on clouds. But the woman kept canceling dates and when she finally did agree to meet him at a club, she stood him up. I didn’t see him for a couple of days and when I did, he was very subdued – his ego deflated due to “too much drama.” He even noted that she called to apologize when she knew he was at work so she could just leave a message. He went to great lengths to NEVER encounter her again. He’d met her at New Age seminar and when he wanted to go to the next one, he called ahead of time to make sure she was not going to be there. It was the closest I every saw him to being depressed, though I think he was just nursing a narcissistic injury. And then along came another… Jan

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158. phil835 - August 17, 2012

Hi Les,

I just want to agree with your post and amend my own comments in light of your excellent insights. I highlighted some possible circumstances under which a Narcissist may seek treatment and therapy for depression. The liklihood of circumstances arising whereby a Narcissist will seek therapy for depression, are so extenuating that it is a rarity rather than a first option. The prefered option of choice is a new source of Narcissistic supply, it is the only real solution for them. They are not suffering depression as an illness in need of a cure, they are just suffering ‘withrawal symptons’ from lack of NS. If in the extremely unlikely event therapy is sought for depression, the treatment sessions I know of from my Narc took this line of approach. My N was suffering depression at the end of a Narcissistic cycle, she went for treatment for depression and got antidepressants. In therapy she explained how her depression was entirely the result of other people, circumstances, other peoples actions and every external force out of her control. The therapist suggested ways she could ‘step around’ these obstacles and better continue life unhindered by these ‘outside forces’ that had caused her depression. At no stage did the therapist dare suggest that her problems may have originated from within, or that possibly she had had even contibuted to her current circumstances? Therefore, if things go wrong for Narcissist, they must never be held to account for their own actions. Her depression was clearly the result of and fault of other people,
Secondly, the Narcissist has a difficult time reconciling that they should need help and keep their inflated all powerful egos intact. An interesting offshoot of possible NS from going into therapy, was to namedrop a celebrity who is rumoured to visit the same therapist! 😉
And as my female Narc was inspired to do after her therapy, do a degree in Psychology and when you next meet a therapist, you can claim to know more than he or she does and be ‘on the same level’ rather than a patient under a therapist.
I hope the above is a useful case study into a Narcissist under therapy. Phil

Narcissists HATE having to ask for help as it undermines their feeling of being all powerful. Their problem would be an external one because it if originates with them, that might require future sessions as opposed to a quick fix. I don’t even think they need a degree in psychology to prove their intellectual superiority. Wikipedia would do just fine. 🙂
And if the doctor doesn’t tell them what they want to hear, they’re just a quack. The best RX for a narcissist is a new source of supply. Jan

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Lesley - August 17, 2012

Hi Phil,
Yes, I agree with all you say..they may go through the motions of seeking help but at heart they have to feel superior and intact.
Your description of depression at the end of supply, is really useful to me..my ex was exactly the same. Invariably his relationships ended in early Spring…he would then spend the Summer trying to hook supply. Practically,lighter nights,more time etc.They are predators after all?
If he failed the Winter would bring depression. This was passed off as Seasonal Affective Disorder(SAD),very common in Northern Hemisphere….but in reality he was happy as a lark the first Winter I spent with him because he had new supply??
He would,as your ex girlfriend also did,blame everyone for his troubles. He was the one trying hard,misunderstood,correct in all he did and us pesky mortals…just didn’t understand his ways!
My ex laughed at all doctors. They were quacks…he had a male doctor for many years who sung to his tune and they golfed together. Hence why he had enough Viagra stores to service the population of the UK!(LOL).
This Doctor retired and he had to go to a new one…God Forbid a woman took over as Head of Practice! She wanted to meet all patients who were on the books.. I remember him coming in after his appointment absolutely fuming and berating her skills and tough attitude. He also didn’t find her attractive(which for him was the final insult). She changed all his Meds,asked about his over indulgent habits…in short she got his measure.
It’s interesting but I think Narcs actually’self medicate’…they think thy know best. They can drink as much as they like,they know which foods are best and they won’t take medication if its a hassle….Even the Viagra wasn’t actually required. My ex had a normal libido and response… but he wanted a superhuman response! Whenever or with whoever and it was his entitlement to have this..Is it sad that they are like this? Not sure, once again I am reminded of that six year old having to get a sweetie before they take their medicine….

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159. phil835 - August 17, 2012

Hi Les,

I forgot to add at the end of my post. The end result of therapy and treatment for depression for my Narcissist. Was to establish that she was in indeed ‘normal’, therefore it was the pathology and mental illnesses of of those she found herself in relationships with, which had caused her problems. Having a degree in Pyschology, she is now better equipped to identify and point out all the mental illnesses in other people as a normal person herself. Not only is she now a great keeper of wisdom and a spokesperson for all normal people. She is also a self appointed spokeswoman for all females too.

Of course, that’s why she’s a spinster approaching 40, who can’t hold down a serious relationship much longer than 6 months, without alienating whoever it is she comes into contact with. But then, our Narcissists are blighted with bad luck and surrounded by mentally ill people, as they readilly point out! 😀 Phil

Narcissists are a therapist’s worst nightmare as they are not looking to change. Usually they are dragged into the therapist’s office by a SO, or go because they are feeling a bit down at the end when yet another person has left them. They are not introspective and delight in telling the therapist stories that cast themselves in a good light while it’s others who are baddies. Jan

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160. Lesley - August 19, 2012

Having read the last posts within this thread… I’m left wondering whether the Narc response is to ‘stand with a foot in two camps.’
There are some who will ignore ill health be it mental or physical because they know best and are unwilling to change(perhaps because they are addicted to the lifestyle/excess)
Then there are those who’enjoy ill health’ and the attention it brings.
They actively love the round of doctors or therapists…perhaps secretly still thinking they know best?They then return to their loved ones,significant others for sympathy and even more attention…
My ex was the former…it suited him that I never’got ill’ and I shudder to think what would have happened if I had claimed to have even a few heavy colds…
Before I knew the whole and real story of his infidelity to his ex wife. He had already primed me about tales of her getting sick too much and indeed thrown in one of his ex girlfriends preoccupation with her health. I see now that he was telling me’what he expected from me’
I think Narcs do this,they show you their checklist of preferences fairly early on and expect compliance?
Once I used a quote from ‘Priscilla Queen of the Desert’ to him.
I do love this,and it’s when Felicia Jollygoodfellow is berating someone for wallowing in suffering…she says;
‘Oh for,goodness sake,get down from off that crucifix,someone needs the wood’
My ex laughed long and hard at his,comparing it to his ex girlfriends and other friends. He of course….in his own opinion…tackled life face on!!!
These days as the months go by… I do wonder what he says about me. He can’t get me on’being sick’,promiscuity,nor instability,nor did I spend too much or fail to listen when required. I suspect it will be my preoccupation with Tennis(LOL)…!

Thanks for making me LOL with the quote. I like the way you can wildly veer from Philip Larkin to “Priscilla Queen of the Desert.” They make up whatever story suits them, so I doubt any of these stories are grounded in reality. My N hated any hint of sickness as it required you to act concerned or sympathetic. Being sick was a sign of weakness in his eyes. Jan

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Trapped - August 19, 2012

These posts remind me of the ex-N in my life. He always went on and on about how doctors were in cahoots with the pharmacists and they are all corrupt and only out there to just make money and cut on people. Mind you, I am a doctor. He had a growing mass on his back that I said should be removed, or at the very least, checked to see what it was. I was just like all the rest, he said, just want to cut on someone. I once mentioned to him that he should take precautions against HIV, this after he had told me with all seriousness that he has been with over 1,000 women in his life so far. He got very defensive and said HIV only happens to people who think it will happen to them and that by me just saying that to him I am sending bad vibes in his direction and this is what is wrong with people like me and yada yada yada. Holy cow. How in the he** did I EVER get myself hooked up with such a lunatic?? Holy mackerel! Calgon, get me as far away from this insanity as possible! I am across the US now in NY, and feel good about the distance!!

Sounds like he had his own degree in Magical Thinking! A change in latitude can have an effect on one’s attitude. Enjoy! Jan

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MillyRad - August 19, 2012

My ex friend changed his view on medicine, illness, and healthcare depending on who he was with or his mood. He always had complaints about health problems and required sympathy for them, but “couldn’t afford” to see a doctor about them. He had some conspiracy theories about the healthcare system and the pharmaceutical industry, yet poked brutal fun at alternative healthcare.

He fairly recently was diagnosed with a chronic illness. Nothing life threatening, but definitely something that can be occasionally very disruptive. As soon as he got the diagnosis, he seemed strangely more “alive.” He purchased every possible accoutrement for his illness and used them publicly every chance he got. I’m pretty sure he used his illness as an excuse to get out of doing things he didn’t want to do, but would do similar activities with his girlfriend. But since his illness was was episodic it was plausible that the day he was expected to do something could coincide with the onset of an episode…but not likely. Eventually, his friends stopped contacting him and inviting him. I guess this must have bothered him because he suddenly and inexplicably was well again. So confusing and frustrating!

Once his illness stopped working for him, he got over it. Interesting. Jan

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161. phil835 - August 19, 2012

Hi Lesley, Trapped.

I think Narcissists love promoting their own victimhood, when it gives them the perfect excuse in advance of their soon to follow appalling behavour to towards you that is!

Think of the times you’ve actually winessed your Narcissist as an innocent victim, suffering some abuse or exploitations in an unprovoked way???
Now think of all the times you’ve listened to your Narcissists accounts of their childhood, abusive partners etc? Strangely, aren’t they always the ‘innocent victims’ in their accounts of themselves? It’s true that they were never to blame, we know that. But Lesley sort of touches on an idea that I want to expand.

It’s my opinion that the Narc’s account of their other relationships, childhood past and and how they have ‘suffered’ as victims at the hands of others……..I think it’s part of their early grooming of you, for the future abuse they are about to dish out to you.
Victimhood is a useful place to be afterall, think of how much more tolerant we are of people who are ‘real victims’??
You see, the Narcissist needs you to be tolerant. Tolerance for the Narcissist (as victims) affords them a lot of slack in advance of the very real abuse they are about to unleash on you.

In a way, their stories of themselves as victims, is preparing you in advance for what they expect of you. They are to be forgiven and excused all their evils, because bad things happened to them ‘in the past’ ……… and how much of their past relationships can you actually prove? All you have is the Narcissists story afterall. What wonderful narrators they are! Phil

Phil,
It’s like I said. N’s victimhood, is their “Get out of jail free” card. You forgive so much of what they say/do since they’ve let you know straight away that they were “damaged.” You feel for them, so you hesitate to call them out on certain things, rationalizing that their behavior is almost “justified”- because they’ve led you to believe they were the victim. Jan

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phil835 - August 19, 2012

Hi Millyrad,

I really get your post! Mine was about victimhood, but illness and martyrdom is something they will pervert and extort to the maximum also.

I particulary liked these two statements from your post…..

“My ex friend changed his view on medicine, illness, and healthcare depending on who he was with or his mood.”
“I’m pretty sure he used his illness as an excuse to get out of doing things he didn’t want to do, but would do similar activities with his girlfriend”

If there is any confusion on what the Narcissist really thinks there shouldn’t be. You are only confused, because you listen to their comments and take them at face value and in good faith.

They are so duplicitious, it’s better to listen to them and make a note of what they say…. then watch what they actually do. Phil

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162. Lesley - August 19, 2012

Hey all,(and Phil…no Philip Larkin Lookalike!)

Just considering for a moment ‘their grooming of us’ this actually suggests that they have insight into their own faults or at least ‘the pattern’ of what causes relationships with them to break down.
I do think they have considerable insight into this.
My ex was at pains to tell me’ He could sometimes be provocative verbally but was never malicious’…he was the most malicious person I have ever met in my life. He ripped out the jugular.
He also described himself as ‘a gentleman’…jokingly. He had a thin veneer of being a gentleman,he would open doors,help you on with coats etc but his actual views on women were frankly diseased.
I think the veneer was there to cover up the actual awful thoughts he had about all women.
There was a great deal of ‘Projection’ going on with him…for example his ex mistress,who I’ve mentioned before on Jan’s blog was always referred to as ‘somewhat loose’.promiscuous’ and ‘a bit of a good time girl’….What then was he?
I pointed this out to him when I confronted him about his constant infidelity at the end of our relationship.I said the common denominator in all these(to use his words’ flings with tarty women’)was actually him.
He was the sleazy guy.
Maybe with Narcs we have to listen to what is being said and then watch as the opposite plays out.
I do feel that this forum is helping me spot them early.. not just romantically but in general.Most people don’t over justify themselves to you or tell you they are trustworthy,kind,have your best interests at heart first off..do they?
Narcs do…they are paving the way. I know that my ex did…he tried to fill in gaps from my previous relationships and be some knight in shining armour…hell,he was doing a research on me and my preferences so he could fool me better?
Normals are kind or reliable by action over a period of time. It’s for me a telling difference.A narc cannot keep up the mask over time.

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163. phil835 - August 19, 2012

Hi Lesley, (I’ll put my reading glassses on to write this one and try to look the part if you like?!) 😉

I think the Narcissist has developed some powers of introspection and a reasonable insight into themselves. But then, it’s the least I would expect from such self obsessed people?

I think that the ‘projection’ of a Narcissist onto others, shows up their limited awareness or thought about others. Whilst at the same time, it reveals what awareness they have developed of themselves.

I think that the cynicism and contempt for other people I noticed in my N, was a projection of what she knew about herself.

My old mantra is that ‘some people tend to judge others by their own standards’

It’s my opinion that the N is so self obsessed, that their limited understanding of the mindset of others, is only based on what they know about their own minds.

They are just not interested enough in other people to deliberate on how others may interpret the world differently, let alone feel. There’s a lack of interest in others, but more importantly a lack of inclination for them to understand others, unless it suits some purpose for them. This is how the ‘lack of empathy’ reveals itself to us I think?

The following ideas are just based on my own feelings from my own relationship with my N, they are highly personal and not backed up by anything I’ve read. The pupose of projection (if I was to do projection), I would find something I don’t like about myself and ‘project’ it onto another to rid myself of my own shame. For example, if I was ashamed of my alcohol addiction, I would point to somebody who drinks even more than I do, then severely criticise that person and demonise them. It takes the heat off of me, doesn’t it? I think this is how most people use ‘projection’.
I think the Narcissist is doing something different. I don’t think the Narcissist is ashamed of themselves and needs to ‘project’ to rid themselves of shame. I don’t think the Narcissist feels any shame about themsleves. And threfore they are not ‘projecting’ to make themselves feel better, they are projecting in a way that ‘assumes’ everyybody else is just like them?

And in Lesley’s post, it’s not some self loathing or shame that causes her N to project himself onto women and label them as whores. He’s a man whore himself, therefore all women must be whores? These are just my personal thoughts. Phil

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Trapped - August 19, 2012

Phil, what you wrote is a lot like Jung’s theory of Shadow and self. The Shadow is what we all have deep inside ourselves and it often surfaces when we project it onto someone else. Like you said, it often is something within ourselves that we feel shame about.

My interpretation of the Narc is that they project onto others what they wish they truly were. Please correct me if I am wrong. They also take the very best of what we are and try to mirror that. I am forgetting why they treat women as whores, but I think it is because the somatic ones truly do use them as live masturbators and nothing else. They may have one “madonna” that is the virgin they won’t have sex with, but they don’t really love that one, either. They can’t love anyone, especially themselves.

They may be attracted to us because we are full of life, real life, and we have the ability to love and live. We are, HUMAN! Speaking of that, my daughter is calling me to the back yard to watch a flower called an evening primrose open…I guess you can really see it open. So, my feeling is that we ought to be proud about who we are and try, as we are doing in these posts, to laugh off those poor, sick folks who reeked havoc in our lives.

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Trapped - August 19, 2012

One quick follow up: the flower really DOES open right before your eyes!! Just like those slow motion movies of flowers opening, but for real!! Try that some time: evening primrose, opening amidst fireflies and hopping toads! Very nice!

This sounds gorgeous! Isn’t it great to be human and experience these small miracles? Jan

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164. Donna - August 19, 2012

Hi Les, my original post just went poof. :-(. However, I can totally relate to your last entry. It’s almost a carbon copy of what happened and what was said to me by my exnf. He was the perfect “gentleman” on our one and only date, he questioned me about my life since we last saw each other some 25+yrs ago, I quess he was doing his research on me. LoL.

The only thing was when he started talking about himself, I listened very carefully and he sent so many (Red Flags flapping in the wind) that I knew to keep my distance. All the woman, breakups, etc. He was as sweet as pie with me, however he offered me a FWB relationship when he walked me to my door and I think he was a little perplexed when I didn’t invite him in. I gave a light kiss and sent him home.

The next day I turned down his offer of FWB nicely, my big mistake was remaining his friend. He worked his game very well for the next two years. His conversations about women became increasing nasty and degrading. And as we all know here the mask started slipping off slowly but surely……

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Lesley - August 19, 2012

lol Donna, I’m laughing at what came out of the bag as he walked you to your door… the degrading conversations yuck…but we have to admit that some women have them about men too.
For me,the way I live my life is to give people the benefit of the doubt…this is big thing for me spiritually. But…it leaves door slightly ajar for Narcs? I’m so glad you went to your community event and had a great time. Yes,they do their homework at the beginning!!! Love you got your strength back…

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165. Lesley - August 19, 2012

Yes Phil,
I get this..it’s a new take for me but I do understand. He isn’t capable of the self loathing bit so he judges others by his own standards…
This would work on lots of levels for me because one of the things I felt was different for me was that my ex didn’t just idealise me at beginning…he idealised me and denigrated me throughout. Bloody Exhausting.
I now believe that he was denigrating me when he was being unfaithful or thinking about it himself…so like you say he’s done wrong…so I must have done wrong!
It’s like Jan saying that Joe said’you must have been the type to get knocked up’…these are his thoughts so she has to be the same.
It’s not as complicated as projection…its just assuming we’re all the same. I did laugh at that Jan!
Yes, I was using a ‘normal’ view when I thought about projection.

Phil,I’ll let you get back to making changes to’Whitsun Weddings’ but don’t touch ‘An Arundel Tomb’ because it’s perfect!

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166. Donna - August 19, 2012

Les, Phil, Chris, they are totally walking and talking contradictions. My exnf talked about fat people, and he 50 lbs over weight, he talked about disabled people and mad jokes about them and he is totally disabled by the Military and can’t walk 1/2 a block, he talked about ppl that don’t pay their bills or taxes and he is very guilty of both.

We were talking, emailing, texting for over three years and just for my own sanity check I asked him why I never get anymore cute, funny and interesting emails from him anymore and he said I don’t know how to use his Mac laptop that he purchased in 2010. WTF lies for days.

Do they even know how to tell the truth or do they just mix it up to keep you in a confused state?

For Les, my encounters have led to adopt a “Trust is Earned” attitude with new ppl I meet because I have been burnt so many times and there 1/20 living in our world. Or “Three strikes you’re out”. One Lie ok, 2nd lie or miscommmunication and the 3rd it’s time to Let Go and Move On. It’s a little scary that one in 20 ppl we meet could be a Narc.

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167. phil835 - August 20, 2012

Hi Everyone! I’ve just smiled and nodded my way in agreement fthrough the last 6 posts! I found so much truth in every opinion and observation, which I could readilly apply to my own N. Yet, if I put them all together as one, they seem to be a paradox of conflicting truths?
I think where some of my confusion starts in trying to understand the N, is by taking a ‘snap shot’ of them in a particular time and circumstance. Instead of taking a still photograph of the N in any given time and circumstance, then trying to analyse that particular moment in isolation. It’s far better to take a ‘Movie Clip’ of them that spans their entire Narcissistic cycle and interactions with different people. Then my undertanding of what they are about really like starts to make sense again!

I’ll start off with Trapped’s observation. ‘they project onto others what they wish they truly were. Please correct me if I am wrong. They also take the very best of what we are and try to mirror that.”

This is true Trapped, but also seemingly in contrast with my other observation that they ‘judge others by their own standards’.

If I take your comment and say, this is the Narcissist at the beginning of their idealisation stage and with their primary source of Narcissistic Supply. Then I think this is a perfect description of the way in which an N ‘projects’ at that particular time and with that particular person in those circumstances. It’s a snap shot image though, its very true but looked at in isolation to the other scenes which are about to follow.

Now I’ll leap to what Donna says in the last post about her N criticising fat and disabled people whilst he himself possesses these traits. Yes we could say it is a projection of negative aspects of himself. But these people are neither Narcissistic supply or in an idealisation phase for him. It may be a reflection of his own self loathing, but the concept of self loathing and shame in a Narcissist is something I’m moving away from in my own thinking. I think that the Narc feels ‘self pity’ more than self loathing. And the ‘pity’ they feel is more ‘pity’ at not getting their own way, rather than hating their own inadequacies for any other reason!!
And consequently, I think we can read too much into their criticisms of whores, fat people, disabled people as projections. They may be denigrating these people to serve a purpose, but whatever that purpose is, the only thing I will guarantee is that it is a selfish one!

I think that when we concentrate of how a Narcissist experiences self loathing, shame and deep feelings of inadequacy, we feel sympathy and pity for them. That’s ok and it may be true, BUT. the Narcissist has enough self pity and feelings of sympathy for themselves. Yours will do if you insist on giving it also? But remember that the Narcissist has no feelings for your emotions! I really think their sorrow for themselves or inadequcies, is sorrow at not getting their own way, consideration for others isn’t a factor! Again in a word it’s selfishness!

And to Donna, I smiled all the way through your posts. The N isn’t a whole person capable of a real or genuine relationship. They will eviscerate other people and use them for their particular needs, in particular circumstances, at a particular time. Again it comes back to my ‘use a movie clip’ rather than a ‘still image’ to encapsulate their true nature.
At the point I was forced into abandonment of my N, she offered me a FWB relationship. She was rather taken aback and surprised that a man should turn down a no strings physical realtionship. Most men find this difficult and I concede to the gentler sex that we can be rather ‘weak’ and ‘heedless’ when offered sex. However, my N had already poisoned my life and other relationships as a result of her acting out and causing conflict. She really thought I might stll accept a physical relationship with her? Were I not truly sickened by her and in some way able to trust her then I may have ‘bitten’. I was unable to trust her on so many levels, my initial faith to trust had been broken, and no trust had ever been earnt or built by her. And whilst I always offered genuine friendship based on trust and respect, that wasn’t what she wanted from me at that time. And without the FWB on offer to her, she vanished in a puff of smoke. Alarmingly, she talked about a ‘future’ relationship in other circumstances. The audacity of her is that in advanced years she may think of then seeking comanionship and suddenly valuing me on an emotional and intellectual level. Everything is on the Narcs terms and what suits their needs in their particular circumstances. Don’t accept such selfish people who will never accept you whole or consider you as a human being in your own right! Phil
P.S. Lesley, I’ll get back to writing my poetry and leave ‘Arundel tomb’ frozen in time! 😉

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168. phil835 - August 20, 2012

To Trapped,

I can’t write a response about every comment in every post, it would take too long! At the same time, I haven’t overlooked anything! I think a Narcissist just filters what they want from other people in conversation, the things that are important to them that is?

And on your little anecdote about the evening primrose flower, I thought you might like this poem, it isn’t Philip Larkin but William Henry Davies. I hope you Enjoy!)) Phil

What is this life if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.
No time to stand beneath the boughs
And stare as long as sheep or cows.
No time to see, when woods we pass,
Where squirrels hide their nuts in grass.
No time to see, in broad daylight,
Streams full of stars, like skies at night.
No time to turn at Beauty’s glance,
And watch her feet, how they can dance.
No time to wait till her mouth can
Enrich that smile her eyes began.
A poor life this if, full of care,
We have no time to stand and stare.

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Trapped - August 20, 2012

Beautiful!

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169. Chris - August 22, 2012

Thanks everyone for your posts.

The (diagnosed) bi-polar individual that I wonder if he is also N, seems very vengeful and is definitely criminal. A wild thing about him is that he is vengeful with one communication and then indirectly suggests reconciliation within the next communication!

He can’t believe that “someone like him” has been rejected (almost his exact words in the quotes). He also, when referring to his prescribed meds for his bi-polar would state that he himself knew the proper dosage as opposed to his doctor and administers is as such.

As for playing the victim – our (regular) N’s wife told me that a counselor told him that he acts the way he does because of “how he was brought up” and “things from his childhood.” (Not sure if I mentioned that before.

I am very curious as to if the counselor ever used the word Narcissist with them.

This guy I assume will really play the victim when we finally address our issue. I prefer he play the pouty baby to the vengeful criminal though.

“Definitely criminal” doesn’t play well with me unless he has a rap sheet that would work against him in court. People like this have you jumping left and right just so you never know where they really stand. Jan

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170. Chris - August 22, 2012

Also, I want to get some Primrose! 🙂

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Trapped - August 23, 2012

I am going to get some, too! Especially after watching three more flowers open tonight! Magical!! I hope they’ll grow in California. Back home tomorrow. A little apprehensive. But it would seem by now Mr. N should have moved on and forgotten about me.

I’ll have to ask my favorite gardener at the local nursery. But the zones vary wildly in Southern California. Since I’m in the foothills, I live in the only region where we can grow lilacs. Jan

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MillyRad - August 23, 2012

I watched some evening primroses, too….on YouTube! Hey, they’re famous! 😉 I’d love to find some to grow, too. They’d be great in a kids’ garden!

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171. phil835 - August 23, 2012

Hi Chris, I have no experience of an N who is comorbid with Bi-Polar, but the topic of vengeance is of particular interest to me in a Narc. I can relay my own experience of their ‘apparent’ vindictiveness, but I refer to a person who I believe is purely NPD.

A good example I have regarding my N. She was once slighted by a romantic interest who happened to be a mutual friend of mine. My friend was once romantically involved with her, but eventually lost interest and found himself another partner.
She took the opportunity to engineer some conflict, and attempted to cause jealousy and ill-will which I thought was motivated by ‘revenge’
At first I assumed that because she had been rejected and abandoned, she was motivated by revenge and wanted to ‘get back’ at our mutual friend.
I ruled out the possibility that she really wanted my male friend as a partner and was using me to get to him. If he had offered her a full relationship at the time he was romantically interested in her, she would have rejected him. The same for after he was involved in a relationship with another female and me involved with my N.

It puzzled me at the time, because for me her either still being romantically interested in our mutual friend, Or merely ‘taking revenge’ would seem like legitimate motives behind the deliberate conflict she was creating.

In the final analysis, I realised that her only bitterness and resentment was that somebody who was once offered her Narcissistic supply had withdrawn it and lost interest. The greatest insult to an N is not to be noticed, even negative supply is good for them and she would have traded romantic interest for his jealousy and hatred as a different form of Narcissistic supply.

Had I been her, then perhaps I would have enjoyed a little revenge and then forgotten about her former romantic interest.
In true Narcissist fashion, what she needed was attention of any form. And her only feelings of animosity related to the withdrawal of attention. Remember, all forms of attention are better than no attention to a Narc.

If a Narc is convinced that there is ‘no mileage’ in a person whatsoever, they will move on and won’t waste time nursing grudges.

What does hurt them and this is the words of my N here, is when somebody who they were formerly involved with has moved on, abandoned the N and cut all ties and has found happiness in pther relationships.

I find that they cloak themselves in victimhood, or sometimes play the rescuer and better perpetrate their evil from that vantage point. They are cowards when it comes to all out open conflict in my experience. To inflict the death of a thousand cuts rather than a single mortal wound is their style. It would fit with what you say about “vengeful with one communication and then indirectly suggests reconciliation within the next communication”

Drawing you in close and putting you at ease before inflicting the next cut. But notice how they have to ‘keep things going’?

I think when NS is well and truly exhausted and I mean completely exhausted. They are like a drunk who shakes an empty beer bottle before tossing it accross the room in despair and disgust. Their mind is now on where their next drink is coming from, so they won’t put much effort into punishing an empty beer bottle! Phil

Phi,
Well put. Being ignored is the worst narcissistic injury imaginable. It’s impossible for them to fathom that someone who once fancied them is no longer in their thrall. The best course of action is to usually act like that person never existed. They are literally dead to the N.

The N I knew loved verbal jousting which involved a lot of back and forth jabs/random statements and sarcasm disguised as “teasing.” Meanwhile, no genuine communication occurred. The N liked to keep things going this way. It keeps people on their toes as they never know what’s coming at them next. Jan

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172. phil835 - August 23, 2012

To Trapped, Perhaps we should call ourselves the ‘Evening primrose Society’ ? 😉

To sum up my thoughts on a Narcissist and their capacity for vengence. To me, ‘holding a grudge’ and ‘settling an old score’ is a real flaw in my own character! Knowing that I can harbour feelings of resentment towards those who I consider to have caused unreasonable and unfair harm, is an emotion I can relate to in myself and in others. I don’t recommend anyone to harbour feelings of resentment, but I easily identify this flaw in my own character and sympathise with it in others.

The irony was that this flaw in my own character, became part of my revelation into the mindset of a Narcissist.

I may have been motivated to do similar things to my N, if I had caved into my desire to take revenge and ‘settle old scores’!
What was my N doing though? She was shaking the empty bottle of Narcissistic Supply to see if there was still anything left in the bottom of it for her? And if NS is well and truly empty, then they lose interest and move on. They don’t hold grudges or take revenge if their isn’t a gain in Narcisstic supply to them!
Like I said, a person who completely ignores and doesn’t pay any attention or emotion whatsoever, will be quickly forgotten about by a Narc. Phil

I go off to school for one day and you’re already forming a club! LOL Jan

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Trapped - August 23, 2012

Phil, I like that idea (Evening primrose society). I am going to take some roots back with me to CA and try to plant them. Maybe they can be symbolic of a new start on life?

That is true what you’ve written about how the N views his/her supply. I remember my ex-N telling me he got over his women “in an hour”. But, he said, it takes longer now that he is “older”, more like a few days. Probably, now that I see who he is, because it takes him longer to get supply. He once remarked to me “why is it hard for me to get younger women?” Probably, Bud, because they are more savvy than us lonely older women. Most of the younger ones that he’d poach on would probably take one look at him and say “yeah, right” when he tried his fake charms on them. That’s why he is safe with the married, lonely, and divorced women in our area. Sad thing. He once told me he likes married women because they are otherwise committed. Jerk. Preys on their vulnerable hearts and weakened state of life. To me, this is no better than a sociopathic criminal. Both are stealing and they know damn well what they are doing.

Grow those primroses!!

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phil835 - August 24, 2012

Jan, you formed the ‘Ginger seperatist society’ with Les remember? 😉 I’m happy to say the ‘Evening primrose society’ is open to all applicants and doesn’t seek to exclude on hair colour! 🙂 😀

Lesley isn’t even a ginger! And I believe it was more of an “appreciation society.” You better sleep with one eye open, Phil, as you saw what happened to Eric Cartman! 🙂 Jan

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173. phil835 - August 23, 2012

Hi Trapped, I totally agree with your sentiments. A Narcissist is a predator, therefore they carefully select and groom their victims accordingly.From my own personal circumstances and experience of my N, I had already hit a very low psychological and emotional state, proceeding the time I found myself involved with my N.
A Narcissist will readilly exploit the virtues which exist in others, which are alien to their own minds. If you are generous, thoughtful, trusting, loyal, sensitive to others? Then a Narcissist can only gain and exploit these virtues in others which are alien to them. My mistake was that I beleived (and I’m sure many have made this error) that the Narcissist can be encouraged to reciprocate some of these values? They are a complete waste of time and energy. More so, you will lose faith in humanity the further you persist in trying to reform a Narc!
I need to to take up horticulture and take some Evening Primrose cuttings also! 😀

I have two quotes which I like to think on regarding my own soul’s poisoning from contact with a Narcissist.

The first is Nietzsche. “And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.”
What Niettzsche meant by Abyss was evil. He was sort of saying that whilever you try to fight and counter evil, you become preoccupied with it and it eventually ‘stares’ back inside you!

Better to stare at an evening primrose than a Narc then? 😉

The other one I like (which is an indulgence of what Nietzcshe advises against) is from Oscar Wilde.
“There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realise his conception of the beautiful”

I think a Narcissist has taught me a lot about what I now consider to be beautiful in this life. It isn’t in aesthetics or anything superficial. Real beauty is genuine and sincere love that comes from within people and truly touches our hearts. Phil

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Trapped - August 24, 2012

Love those quotes. They are very true. There was a point at which I did lose faith in humanity. I still am very gun-shy about men in general. I was way too naive and trusting. I looked upon others with a twisted feeling that they would do unto me as I did unto them, if that makes any sense.

I never dreamed that someone would go out of his way to exploit me and play with my feelings just for his own satisfaction and gain. I just couldn’t see that, it didn’t make sense to me. It was just beyond my comprehension.

I didn’t see that I was worth that sort of trouble for anyone. In retrospect, I see that he was getting some pretty good stuff, and that it was given with all of my honesty and with the truest love I had. This is more than any normal person could hope for or dream of. But this was something he just drank up, slurping it, belching when he was through, then shifted his gaze to the next one on his list. I was only a piece of flesh with no name, no innards, and nothing to him. No more than the skeleton an owl regurgitates and flies onward to catch it’s next prey. It still boggles my mind.

I’m pretty wounded from it all, as we all are. As many before this have said, the more we try to figure it out, the less we can. None of it makes an ounce of sense. But, then again, if it did make sense to us, we’d be more on the level of an N, so I guess it is a good thing we can’t.

As an end note, when I was visiting my parents in NY this past week, I found out that my young niece, who just graduated from an Ivy league college, got caught in a tangle with an N. This was her first boyfriend, she lost her virginity to this jerk. He is a politician who snared himself a pretty virgin. He used her for 8 months, then when she asked him for exclusivity, he said no. Turns out his ex-girlfriend also works on his campaign and he was texting my niece while he was still with her, and so on and so on. The ex-girlfriend and my niece are now using each other for support to get through this.

I told my niece to get off the campaign immediately and to cut all contact with this jerk. She feels a loyalty to this political cause so I don’t know what she’ll do. It is a crazy world. I only hope I can protect my own daughter, who leaves for college in a few weeks, from getting hurt like this.

On a happy note-I was able to bring a few plants back and now will plant them! One has a bud on it….let’s see what happens!!

I’m not sure that the more we try to figure it out the less we know. Once we suspend our human logic, things DO fall into place. This helps because we can quit expecting these emotional black holes to come round and act human! I find this to be very freeing. It’s all crazy, but to be able to recognize this puts you ahead of the game. (Though belatedly.)
As for you niece. How sad that the first love of her life would be a N. They can warp your perspective as to what a relationship should be. Until she understands what she was subjected to, she will not be able to move forward, as she will think it had something to do with her. So not. Jan

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Trapped - August 25, 2012

Yes, it is sad, especially since her mother had a very horrible experience with an N when she was the same age. It made her almost suicidal…she then went on to have a bunch of dysfunctional relationships, finally marrying a very verbally abusive guy whom she is finally trying to decide whether or not she wants to divorce, after over 20-some years of marriage.

This is a pattern, for sure. I was talking to one of my other sisters (we are a family of 8!) who was telling me of a childhood friend of hers who was sexually abused and beaten by her father from age 4. The dad would “punish her” by making her go to her room and take off her clothes. He then took off his belt and beat her, after which he would rape her while he put a pillow over her face.

This poor woman ended up marrying a man (second marriage) who, it turns out, began to abuse her daughter (his stepdaughter) at around the same age. It seems hopeless how these things just go on and on.

The worst part is that this woman had been in therapy forever and was a social worker, yet she did not see it coming.

Anyway, my point was that for some reason, it seems certain people are prone to these abusive relationships. Being back with my parents last week, I could not figure out where it all came from. They are both great people, especially my mother who is probably one of the most giving and loving people on this earth. My father is just a typical man from that era. There was no physical or sexual abuse at all.

And yet, here we are, a couple of women who, for some reason, ended up in these abusive situations. We are not whiners or horrible people, either. To the contrary, we were all raised to be very independent and self-sufficient, but with very strong morals and all that.

So, this was just a very long-winded way of saying that I am afraid for my niece and for my own daughter (who has never had a relationship yet since she went to a very intense high school for the arts which kept her busy from sunrise to sunset). My daughter seems much stronger and more savvy than me. But who knows what will happen when she actually meets someone who tries to charm her? She already is talking about how the guys who do crew are very good looking. I just gently try to tell her that good looks can only get a person so far…but she is starved for that, at her age, and having come from a school where most of the males were gay. What can a mother do?

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174. phil835 - August 24, 2012

Hi Trapped,

I think it’s a reasonable expectation “that they would do unto me as I did unto them”. Many people work on this assumption in their interactions with others, myself included. And some people make us wiser for having misplaced our faith in them!

The asymettrical nature of the relationship with an N soon starts to become apparent, they always fail to reciprocate. You have to extend your good will much further and make even more allowances, if you are to still ‘meet’ with them. But you are no longer meeting with them half way, and it starts to show. I have a theory that this is a type of operant conditioning (similar to gambling). You’ve invested emotional energy in a Narc, very much like a gambler feeding quarters into a slot machine. Convinced that it will come good and pay out eventually! 😀

What I noticed about my N, was that her goodwill was entirely banked up in IOU’s and empty promises. And interestingly, these were empty remarks and hollow promises which SHE insisted on making!
I repeatedly told her NOT to make promises and either DO something or just shut up. I’m a firm believer that actions speak louder than words, and in the end, they did!

But life is a great leveller and people often get what they deserve eventually. What goes around comes around and all that! 🙂

And somehow I think the N realises their eventual fate, but calls it fear? And to let you into the nightmare world of my N, it was this. She had a great ‘fear’ of being abandoned by a partner which she always taled about. I’m not sure what the fear was? For somebody so seemingly hell bent on bringing this ‘nightmare’ into reality by her actions, it seemed more like a certainty than a ‘fear’ from where I was looking? 🙂
And her other ‘nightmare’ was that she would die alone without children, drooling at the mouth in an old folks home. Sounds more like a premonition than a nightmare if you ask me! Phil
P.S. Tell your neice to take care, and keep a wacthful eye on your daughter, Hope the primrose takes root 🙂

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175. Lesley - August 24, 2012

Hey All,
Just beaming in from Ginger Separatist society which as a blonde…I am of course an honorary member.
Agreeing with recent posts and can’t help but say I’ve noticed on net of late that more and more’ normals’ are using poetry/story telling to express the depth of feeling caused by an encounter with a narc.
I read a few over the last while and was struck by the similarities in our reactions and also that the sense of outrage or deep grieving seems to be an outlet for creativity.
So they do leave us something intact. Or even enhanced.
Many of the poems are a search to find meaning and are positive in the humanity they show.
When I read about the opening of the evening primrose…it strikes me that this epitomises all that it is to be really human..to find joy in the minutae of such simple things. A narc would also find joy in an evening primrose but only if someone was watching him and he could feign reaction!
I think the trick is to go on without becoming jaded or tainted by the experience with these people…
If you actually reflect on the discussion we are and have had on this site- it is proof of the depth of our sensitivity and that perhaps something has deepened in us despite the pain…
they simply cannot take that away.
You can possibly tell I’ve been tramping about hills in the north of Scotland for a day or two which was real food for the soul!!

Les

So they DO have soul food in Scotland! You are sounding very insightful which is good as I’ve been herding third graders and am just happy no one peed their pants the first week. 🙂 I’ve loved some of the quotes and poems people have posted as they so capture the essence of what it is to be human. Yes, it is the DEPTH of our sensitivity that distinguishes us from those who’ve emotionally tossed us about. Jan

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176. phil835 - August 25, 2012

Hi Les,

If I am intact afer my encounter with the Narissist, I feel as though it’s despite her better efforts to eviscerate me!

I remember using the expression ‘keeping my integrity’ and I’m certain that my sentiments were misunderstood. The expression works on two levels, so she probably thought I was talking about morality. A Narcissist is immoral, so the suggestion that she was compromising morals would be a good assumption on her part. This wasn’t the emphasis of what I was saying though, what I meant by ‘integrity’ was keeping myself whole.))

In hindsight it was the perfect expression that worked on so many levels, much more than I considered at the time. How to keep your values intact, your morals intact, your reality intact. How to exist as a sentient being whose heart, mind and soul occupy the same body. It felt to me as thought the Narcissist was deliberately trying to undermine my ‘integrity’.
They are not whole people themselves, so maybe they can only wonder at and perhaps even ‘envy at how others function?
This blog has made me realise that people are capable of feelings and emotions, which my N was trying to convince me were unnatural. Amazing how they attempt to pathologize others, who can function on levels and experience emotions they are incapable of!

So I hope to share in your optimism that we are least intact if not enhanced Les, 🙂

The last time I was in the Hills around your neck of the woods, was almost 15 years ago (somewhere near Aviemore). Unfortunately I don’t remember much of the scenery, so the experience wasn’t as enriching for the soul as I had hoped. Adventurous ‘walking’ weekends with the military, invariably turn themselves into squad orienteering competitons! And the ‘poetry’ of the landscape was hardly something a bunch of squaddies were likely to pause and enthuse over! 😀
Interesting how we can seemingly be doing the same thing, experiencing it in totally different ways? Same as the N does! Phil

This made me laugh Phil as I can imagine that as you were tramping about the hills with a bunch a “squaddies,” you’re weren’t stopping to smell the flowers. It’s also an excellent example of how two people (depending on what their intention is) can experience the same situation/event so differently.
One more thing. I think that often it is only after we’ve had our boundaries breached, that we fully recognize what it means to be “intact” as you say. I’ve talked to many a person who (after a period of time and reflection) felt that their close encounter with a narcissist actually strengthened their sense of who they really were. Jan

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177. Lesley - August 25, 2012

Hey Phil,
One of the things I did when back at home after hillwalking was sleep for 5 hours,so now in the early hours of the morning here…I cannot sleep.
I can empathise over your ex trying to make you feel unnatural because you expressed emotion. I still have e mails of his telling me to get over my’sensitivity’.Yet in the beginning….and I still have these letters too-he praises me for my sensitivity!
So I think we go from being someone they crave to be like…to someone they envy and despise because of that dearth in them.
Interesting the comment about experiencing a situation/landscape in a different way.Many many times I felt this with my ex…he would only like a place or town,pub,hotel etc if there was something’in it’ for him or if being somewhere could later be repeated to gain him status.
He once went to see Turner’s Water colours at a gallery because ‘it was something to say we had done’…never mind the beauty of the paintings.
I also know for sure that none of the things we done together have any resonance of me or togetherness with me in them for him..shortly after the discard he went online to hook up NS…fairly desperately.
As I’ve said before on blog he used places that we’d been to and books I’d given him,buildings we had visited as ‘lists’ on his online profile…so he used what he vampirically sucked from me(LOL)to give him a more attractive profile and attract NS.
It was one of the strangest and chilling experiences of my life… I still had messages of profound love sent by him a week or two before… on my phone and I was reading his’advert’ to get another woman swiftly!
I remember distinctly saying’ How Can another Human Being Do that?’
They are very expedient and ruthless and yes ammoral.
It’s also quite funny however to think that my ex is somewhere pretending to have an interest in Thomas Hardy’s novels or Greece…he has never actually been to Greece!
At the end of their lives perhaps they are just segments of other people?
Aviemore was a place I went to as a child…always in the Winter,for the skating rink!
Light Shine,
Les

Les, I noticed that the N “took in” a lot of my interests and even some of the expressions I use and made them his own. I’ve read that Ns come up with their script (for their False Self) by the time they’re teenagers/young adults, but continue to make revisions to improve the storyline. I only wish I could see the Ns profile on various dating sites. I have no doubt that some of his “interests” or qualities would have actually been mine! Yes, they do cobble together an “identity” from the bits and pieces they extract from their victims/supply. Jan

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178. Lesley - August 25, 2012

Hi Snigant,
Hope you get this because I can’t reply under your tag. If Scot is Bipolar then yes there is a chance this is hereditary,although by no means as high as most folk think.Percentages vary,some say 10 percent chance others as high as 30 percent.There is also a higher percentage for depression amongst the children of a bipolar parent.
Bipolar is caused by chemical imbalances within the chemistry of the brain…lithium,serotonin,dopamine.
However,I think it’s really important to say that bipolar individuals are no more likely to be narcissists than any of us. They may mood swing like Narcs,show idealized behaviour or rage or go into themselves,not talk or feel depressed but this is for chemical reasons not necessarily narcissism.
An untreated Bipolar person,someone who has not been diagnosed or receiving medication must be extremely difficult to live with. Maybe they would present as quite Narc like because they do have grandiose thinking and can be loud or overbearing.
I’ve said before that my brother in law is bipolar but a lovely and fairly stable person…no way a narc. His medication is very well controlled and he takes it religiously.
I cannot find any research to prove that Narcs are genetically…that is biologically formed through having similar brain structures/DNA/chemicals in brain….to a parent.
Narcs are nurtured that way in my opinion,very early on there is a trauma or event that turns them onto only trusting themselves.
However,a narc may have had exposure to an unstable parent early on… I know my ex did. I believe living in the environment he did affected him at an early age
.Again I believe this is about environment rather than genetics.
So you may have eg. an undiagnosed bipolar,schizoid,severely depressed,alcoholic,neglectful,inconsistent,drug addicted,schitzophrenic,individual(pick any or all or even add some more?)…and this individual is the Narc’s parent.
The manner in which the Narc is brought up is all. Something happened to make them feel unsafe and turned them into only trusting and loving themselves.

Les

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snlgant - August 25, 2012

Hi Les,
I appreciate your patience and understanding, Jan and Phil. It’s like FINALLY someone gets me and I’m not being overbearing as one counselor stated or not understanding enough as stated by another one. Trying harder makes the insanity worse and my con-artist N smells like a rose to others as he even bought one of the marriage counselors a very nice gift to add to a collection of exotic canes he has. Thank you for clarification as I’ve been trying to treat a symptom of a disease I didn’t know I have been dealing with. The descriptions you listed are spot on for his mom. The only person I ever met that was so overbearing and controlling out right who even locks up her food and cheap glass ware. She hides nothing and will get extremely loud throwing a fit and challenge anyone eye ball to eye ball an inch from their face anywhere. She does not hide her insanity . Everyone is so flustered, and intimidated that invariably she gets her way and will gather others to be angry at any opposer. Then in the next breath turn and be deviantly sweet. She fits the descriptions probably all of them. She will dote on Scott and say sweet things when he isn’t around and snap his head off in control In front of everyone when he is in her presence. I’ve noticed that when she tries to hug him, he pulls away and sets her to his right side… Very non affectionately and will even tell her to stop. She is very up or down password and locks on literally everything! Crazy!!! Scott on the other hand exhibits some of this but is extremely secretive and verbally and mentally abusive towards me since the initial trapping phase in the beginning. I might even think that I had a bit of prince charming syndrome because he was way too wonderful. We dated for a little over a month before he asked me to marry him by a beautiful lake in the moon light on one knee ( unbeknownst to me he had TOLD all of my children 16, 14, and 12 what he was going to do and even picked out my ring w/ out me. Oh, he got his glory before he ever asked me ) I literally said, “well lets do this before I change my mind”. I knew something wasn’t right, I even wrote out a list of pros and cons carefully. I did not live with him at any point before we were married. He lived in a neighboring state and would drive to see me. I met him through mutual acquaintances and oh the charm. I could just kick myself. Never mind, he has had a long time to emotionally do that for me. A month later we were married. On our honey moon in Cancun was my first encounter with the ‘Real’ Scott.
I will be brief. We were at a live entertainment show in a very romantically lit stage and auditorium type area about to watch dancers from Madrid preform. There was a truly lovely happy newly wed couple across from us at our table we had introduced ourselves to. The lights went down, the theatre lights came up and all was quiet. Scott leaned over and said at the edge of my left shoulder, ” you think you are something don’t you? The young woman heard him and had a slightly stunned look. Lord knows what my face was projecting because my mind could not believe what my ears had just heard. Then he said, ” I will leave you here, you think I won’t? Watch me. From between his teeth in a hushed way. That’s not all ! My brain is probably looking like it just got struck by lighting was shooting sparks everywhere in my head. Then, he gets up pushes through the auditorium door very hard disrupting this quiet atmosphere and exits. I never said so much as a word. The young couple literally looked worried. I smiled and looked towards the stage. About 10 minutes later Satan I mean Scott walks back in being very careful to be quiet, sits down beside me and smiles putting his arm around me hugging me to him as if nothing had transpired. Needless to say, the young couple never said another word to either of us. I didn’t see irrational behavior again until two days later . We boarded a bus to sight see and he sits in a single seat at the front of the little vehicle across from another woman like he was by himself. I sat in the back where there was an available seat with many of the locals . When we had gotten off he had struck up a conversation with her and she was with a man. It wasn’t the same type of occurance it was different. Over the years I have pretty much caught on to the sameness of his patterns….there are a bunch it seems like. Then after a while, I began to recognize the patterns. Between him and myself I credit God for my sanity. I think you are right, his mom is the genetic loon and so are the two grand children. My children call them strange. I also think you are right about Scott being hurt by his crazy mom and becoming the N he is today. I don’t feel sorry for him anymore, I feel putty and can’t wait for the opportunity to be free completely free of him. He uses money to try and buy people’s usership and calls them friends. More like a boy with a pork chop tied round his neck so he can lure in the next unsuspecting playful trusting toy to destroy. Yes, there is definitely a wake of people in his path of destruction. It’s just amazing that he has gotten away with this for so long. I guess baffle’em with bull s—. Is his montes then you won’t ever know for sure what really happened . He describes me as very independent with disgust and I guess that’s why he won’t leave my house, I refuse to go down . Torn up a good bit, but I refuse to lose anything else. I am a vey patient person . This is the closest I as a nurse have thought about harming someone. I’m trying to solely focus on my degree so I can support myself. One year and ten months left of nazi N hell.

Snigant,
I agree with Lesley’s assessment of the genetic/environmental aspects of these disorders. There is no scientific evidence that narcissism is an inherited trait. That said, my sister-in-law’s first husband showed strong n-traits. His mother was a controlling woman who did not recognize boundaries. Her own husband lived in fear of her. On a cruise after their marriage, my SIL’s new husband slept in a room with his mother, while she slept with his sister. Control issues?
This woman had sons and twenty years later, the wives of these sons have began to trickle back into my SIL’s life and tell her horror stories. Only one son seemed to have emerged from this family relatively unscathed. Anytime a child grows up with a dysfunctional primary parent, the odds increase that the child will themselves re-enact those patterns that they were trained to believe were “normal.”
I have to say I found your description of what he said to you on the cruise ship to be chilling, no make that downright creepy. These are mind games pure and simple designed to undermine your self esteem and sense of what is “normal” and right in the world.
FYI: I was once up on a ladder painting when I asked the N to hand me some more paint. As I reached down to take it, he grabbed hold of my hand and said (with a smile), “It would be so easy for me to pull you down from there.” I don’t believe he would have, but that was one of those chilling moments when you see behind the mask. Jan

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Lesley - August 25, 2012

Hi Snigant Phil and all,
Just had to say Snigant that although you are going through an awful time…your sense of humour still shines through.
I laughed at that comment about the pork chop tied round his neck!Also that he bought the counsellor’an exotic cane’…what the eff!(LOL) Thanks for the laugh…
Just keep on counting down the days and stay patient…you will support yourself and have peaceful times with your kids again.Another great thing is your insight into how abnormal this kind of behaviour is,when you start to make these good gut instinct comparisons… I think you are halfway there?
Phil,wise call on the ‘why’ and then the’how’s’…this makes sense to me in all sorts of historical situations with my ex.You’re right…the motive is all..themselves and NS,at whatever cost.

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Donna - August 25, 2012

Hi Snlgant, I have been following some of your recent postings and I can relate a number of your comments about my exnf KW/Jan’s Joe.

From the beginning of us reconnecting 4 years ago, he made it very clear to me anyway, that he buys people to be in his life, it could be family members, friends, women or who ever else would accept his money. I never took any money that he offered because from my past experiences when men offer money and you accept it they own you.

My N has a huge fear of dying alone, so he seems to keep some folks around with his “golden nuggets”. Or he goes and hangs out with some of his old crones. He also carries a concealed fire arm, now I know why he only wears his shirts outside his pants. (scary)

Another awareness of mine is that he raised his only son since he was 7 yrs old and I have a fear that his son is going to be a (Mini-He). He did share alot about his childhood and early youth, he was honest at times, so now I am not sure what to believe. He is just a fake!!!!!! He is 62. I wanted to also mention that he is recuiting a young mail-ordered bride to be at his side as he continues to age. Not sure he can meet all the requirements on his part. LOL!!!

I am surely wishing you a speedy exit from your current situation and recovery from the madness just know that you have honest support here with Jan’s group.

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179. phil835 - August 25, 2012

Hi Lesley,

I totally agree with your sentiments. It’s as though the Narcissist seperates themselves from an experience and objectifies everything around them as props. Therefore others are always denied the reality of any meaningful or shared experience (which you may have felt), because you were an inanimate prop. In my opinion, a Narcissist never truly shares a dream or an experience with a significant other, For them it’s all about ‘me’!
The paradox is that they still need others to validate their experience. They are as happy in a group of people as they are in the company of two, because ultimately they are always experiencing by themselves and never sharing anything.

You won’t identify a Narcissist by WHAT they are doing. Always look for the reasons why they are doing something, which is always expressed in HOW they are doing something. Now you start to see the mindset of an N at work and understand their motives.
(And it is invariably for the purpose of NS)

I find that taking the above paragraph and applying it to even the most mundane of activities, I find it permeates throughout everything they do! Be it furnishing their house, cooking, holding a dinner party. Watch HOW they do something reveal why they do something, and it works every time! 😀 Their constant need for NS is never satisfied!)) Phil

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180. Trapped - August 26, 2012

So true!! I remember how the ex-N would make sure I saw anything he had done in his house. He would show it to me and look at me to see my reaction. Same thing when he would put a movie or a documentary on TV, he would always look at me to see my reaction. I should have vomited. Once he called me over to his place at around 10:30 PM. I was worried that something horrible had happened to him. I arrived to find he had constructed this huge elaborate pot-growing operation, under the guise of “medical marijuana”. I was shocked and told him so. He was taken aback, expecting that I would be amazed at it. I lectured him on how stupid it was and that a teacher of young children would be run out of the community if he ever were caught with it and his career would be over in a flash. He was crushed. Next morning, it was gone, lock, stock, and barrel. I thought “wow, I have some influence over him”. In retrospect, it was the approval he sought, and nothing else.

The more I write about this guy on here, the more crazy the whole thing looks. What I should have done at that time was nod my head and say ‘wow, what a thing!” Then, go home, dial anonymously the cops and then sit back with a Cheshire cat grin on my face.

I’ve been through the same thing of having the N watch me for my reaction. I went watch shopping with him and mentioned I liked Swiss Army watches because of the leather straps and clean look of them. Well guess who came strolling in wearing one the next week? Yet a year later, post D&D, I saw a picture of him and he was no longer wearing THAT watch. It was then that I knew that I also had the ability to influence, or in some instances, hit a nerve.
I think he sounds like he’s been watching way too many episodes of “Weeds” or “Breaking Bad.” I follow both shows but wouldn’t be dumb enough to actually TRY that! Sounds like a classic LOOK AT WHAT I MADE MOMMY moment. Realize that small children take great pride in doing things that are batsh%t crazy, like finger painting with poo, but thinking it’s brilliant. This is the N’s adult variation. Jan

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181. Lesley - August 26, 2012

Hey All,
Despite my experience with Narcdom… I am still the Eternal Optomist.
So I worked out what I’ve gained,can’do’ again and have restored to myself since my relationship ended. It’s all positive!!!!!
As follows;

1. I can light candles without being told I am being too’touchy feely’
2.I can see my friends Neil and Nicky again(my ex was jealous of them)
3.I can wear my hair up.
4.I can do work at home(he hated the lack of attention or my professionalism or sg)
5.I can speak to my ex husband on the phone without world war3 happening in background.
6. I can listen to the Pogues./Stranglers/Willie Nelson uninterrupted.
7. I can spend however long I like with my son..I love my son!
8. I can wear exactly what I want,when I want.Wow!
9. I can make meals my way.Yes, I will have the sauce!
10. I can talk about my problems for once….Right on.
11. I can paint my toenails any bloody colour I like..
12. i can moan.
13. I never have to spend time with his macho sexist friends again.
14. I no longer have to listen to homophobic jokes. My beloved nephew Ben is gay and planning his wedding…go figure!
15. I can wear the perfume I like.(Not the ones he gave me)
16. I no longer have to tolerate his fantasies/roughness/lack of connection in the bedroom.What a sheer relief!!!
17.When I have the funds again I can go to Greece without him.
18. I never have to iron one of his one hundred similar shirts again!
19. i get my sense of humour back.
20. I never have to explain anything to him,be anywhere,conform to sg,confirm his status to the world,listen to him,defer to him,argue with him or indeed be his mirror!!!

I am Free!,
Light Shine,
Les,

PS.Jan, take on board,seriously how you have helped in this.
I am immensely grateful. To you and the great people here.

Les,
Thanks so much Les. I’m an Eternal Optimist myself.:) 🙂 You can’t spend your days working with children and not have some of their infectious enthusiasm (as well as germs) rub off on you. Your comments and quick wit have definitely lit up already sunny California and other parts of the world. Looking at your list (love your choice of music) reminded me how easy it is to STOP doing some of the things that make you YOU. After you’ve been criticized by the N, you can begin to self-edit and end up being not true to yourself so as to “keep the peace.” The shift can be subtle, but it IS the erosion of your identity. Those who had healthy self-esteem to start can rebound more easily. But for others, this is very debilitating indeed.
So put your hair up and crank up the Willie Nelson! The future is now yours to claim.
Always, Jan

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phil835 - August 26, 2012

Hi Les,

I think it’s all posiive apart from the sauce! 😉
I have memories of cooking Pasta bolognaise for my ex years ago, She’d always dollop half a bottle of Heinz Tomato Ketchup on the side of her plate. I didn’t think my cooking was that bad, maybe I was wrong? 😀

I LOVE pasta bolognese (and yes, I had to look up how to spell that via Google!) My husband is the cook in the house and I don’t complain when I’m being served. Period. If it helps, I had students fill out a list of their “Favorites” the first day of school. When one boy got to Favorite Food, he asked if ketchup counts as a food. Jan

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phil835 - August 26, 2012

I have a great trick to play on children who love Ketchup! Give them a dirty old penny and get them to rub it between their forefinger and thumb with tomato kechup. Then get them to rinse the penny under the tap (fawcett). Hey presto, now they have a very shiny new penny as if straight from the mint! 😀 I tell them tomato ketchup is equally as corrosive to their intestines. It’s just some mundane chemical reaction, but I don’t tell them that part 😉 😀

You scoundrel! Ahhh the magic of vinegar, but I’m afraid my kids don’t give a thought to their intestines. They’d look at the word and just see that it has the word “test” in it. 🙂 After all of these years of hearing/knowing the effect that Coke has on a metal spoon sitting in it overnight, I’m afraid I still drink one for breakfast (I have switched to the 4 oz. size though since I’m on a health kick!) Jan

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Donna - August 26, 2012

Phil,I will always enjoy tomato ketchup, it tastes great on so many foods, but not on homemade Pasta bolognaise. Good taste vs Bad/No taste. Send me some home made pasta any day>>>>>>>

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snlgant - August 28, 2012

Thank you guy’s for allowing me to question, vent and make statements ❤

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182. phil835 - August 26, 2012

Hi Trapped,

I was reading your post about your N’s marijuana growing and at first I couldn’t compare a similar ‘like for like activity’. Then I suddenly had a huge grin on my face: D

I realized that in thinking about the activities of my N in a conceptual way, then using the same adjectives I applied to her specific behaviors at the time….
I discovered that if I take my own Narrative and apply these observations to your N, you could be forgiven for thinking we were talking about the same person and the same incident! 😀

I try not to be too specific about events here in the blog in case any of it is read. I prefer to maintain anonymity here, but I do PM Jan dishing the dirt and naming names from time to time. I’d be happy to share the same with you all if this wasn’t public domain. But I’ve also discovered how great concepts work, as they can be applied to all Narcissists with breathtaking accuracy!

So if you’ll forgive my vagueness, the following observations are me thinking about certain incidents and activities relating to my N. Let’s see how they compare?

Specific incidents are at the forefront of my mind here; this is how I describe them and her.

In the incidents I’m referring to. She has behaved in ways which I would describe as ‘reckless’, ‘thoughtless’ or even just plain ‘stupid’? ‘Immature’ could also be used, except like your N, my N is also a ‘functioning’ Narc who occupies a position of responsibity, in an administrative role in a Government office. Hence the extra gravity and consequences of potentially disastrous and reckless activities, if they were exposed in a person occupying a position of responsibility?

At the time I abandoned my N, I was asked some questions by various people regarding my reasons. As I’ve mentioned before, I operated a ‘scorched earth policy’ and ended a few mutual acquaintances, just to make sure of my separation from her! My answers to people questioning were. ‘I considered my N to be a serious ‘liability’ and very likely damage to my reputation if my name was connected to hers by association. I considered it to now be in my interests to become wholly unconnected with her!’

In the midst of the resulting drama from one of these ‘errors of judgment’ incidents on her part. I offered her my best assistance and helped her ‘clear up the mess’!
An unscrupulous person could easily have ‘landed her in the shit’, rather than offer her help and protection as I did.
The resulting ‘paranoia’ on her part at the ‘clear up mess’ operation was apparent. I was a friend and friends help each other (usually) so that’s what I was doing. And anyone can make a mistake and need help.
In hindsight, I have to question the reasoning behind her apparent stupidity, how had she become embroiled in such situations to begin with? At the time I just helped her out of trouble though.

Then the final straw came, a mistake or two is one thing, but a developing behavior pattern is something else. I bailed her out of the shit a few times but her reckless, thoughtless and selfish behavior eventually came into caused some direct harm to me through her association.

A Narcissist makes trouble for themselves; let them face the consequences for it. If you think about it, you’ll find that they had perfect free will and choice at the time they made all their decisions! Phil

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183. Trapped - August 26, 2012

Phil, I know I am not too vague at all in my writings or descriptions and that maybe I really should be. If nothing else, to protect MYSELF! I probably write so blatantly because I am still in the seething stages and could care less if one of his women were suddenly (with good reason) looking at this web site. He deserves every bad word thrown his way.

It is highly unlikely, however, that this would ever happen as he seems to have a harem of pretty clueless women. He says women these days “like” loose relationships. I guess I am just an old bag because I don’t know too many women who fill his descriptions of what the “modern woman” is like, not even kids my niece’s age, at least the nice kids, that is.

Yes, I, too, thought I would help save the day for him many times. That’s what friends do, right? The only problem is that it is such a one way street, isn’t it? And, as you said, I finally got to the point where I saw that he really was a liability for me. His reputation as a sleaze seems to be far and wide in these parts and now that I see that, I am thoroughly embarrassed that I once sought soul rights to him…what a laughing stock I would have been!

You are right about their oblivious risk taking. This guy used to walk into yards of multi-million homes to steal fruit off the trees, homes of clients of his. He used to tell me that he hated rules and laws, that these were things for sheep. He cheated on his taxes so much that he couldn’t qualify for a home because they didn’t see how he could make his payments with the income he reported. Ha! I got a laugh out of that!

The thing that is worrisome to me is how to get over these flashbacks I have. It is almost like Post-traumatic stress disorder. I was walking with my kids an hour or so ago along the cliffs by the ocean on this gorgeous Sunday afternoon and suddenly got this horrible flashback of him which just quickly clouded my walk for a few moments. I think it happened because a woman came running past us just before that wearing a very skimpy bikini, something not at all the norm for the area I live in, even though we are near the coast.

I was thinking to myself that she must be a narcissist to go out like that (is that sexist of me?). But really, she probably didn’t care at all about anyone seeing her since the trail I was on is usually practically empty most of the time. Anyway, it triggered this cascade of negative feelings that I just want out of my life!

All I could do was look outwards to the ocean and try to feel better by remarking what a beautiful day it was and how blue the water was and etc. etc. until my son said ‘that’s about the fourth time you said it was a pretty day’ (nice teenager). Meanwhile, my daughter was making gagging motions after seeing the woman run by. Humor in everything, I suppose.

Phil has his own reasons for being purposely vague, as some people’s professions,location, etc. reveal more about who the N is.
I think a “seething” stage is only natural and when you’re so raw, what you tend to say is also raw and uncensored. You haven’t said more than you should. As a teacher I have eyes in the back of my head (or as one of my former students likes to say, “She has eyes 360!” yet in no way could/would I be able to know whom you are talking about. So there’s no worries there.
Hmmm…some of the things you’re describing sound almost sociopathic. Whereas psychopaths are more calculating or organized, sociopaths tend to be disorganized loose cannons who enjoy risk taking.
You’ve been through an extremely traumatic event that made you question your own judgment and sanity. That’s heavy stuff and will take some working through. A friend’s boyfriend did two tours of duty in Iraq and suffers from PTSD. He can say, “I served in Iraq and I know I killed people” and others don’t questions that this HAD to be traumatic. You won’t get the same level of understanding after a close encounter with a N unless you’re speaking with a knowledgable mental health professional or someone who has walked that scary walk themselves.
Some of the women I’ve seen at the beach. Oh my! I think your daughter had the right response! LOL Jan

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184. Trapped - August 27, 2012

Yes, I am working on the therapy angle, too, as much as I can afford it (health insurance doesn’t cover, $200/hour!!). It’s all pretty fresh, though, as you said, so I have to be patient I guess and give myself leeway. It helps to have my life so full of things that I don’t have much time to dwell on it. But on the other hand, I think a little dwelling is a good thing, if it is done in a constructive way, to help move out of this bitter stage and get to the point where I feel free again. As you said, as long as I hold these feelings, he has control over me. And we all know there is no person on earth who deserves that, especially him.

So, this blog helps me to keep in touch with who he is and why he needs to stay out of my life for good, and the therapy, when I can afford it, helps me figure out why that happened in the first place. And the best part is that I will get through this and move onto a happier place (I am already a thousand times better than I was at this time last year). Whereas the N, unfortunately, will stay as he is until he dies. If I were a Buddhist, I would have to wonder what his next life will be? I think a snake is too nice of a creature.

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phil835 - August 27, 2012

HI Trapped,

I think you have a very sound strategy for the future. You have to heal and disentangle yourself from them first, then work out what happened in the first place!? The final how and why questions are back onto ourselves once you are fully over this stage.
A Narcissist has skewed your reality and exploited your weaknesses to the full, that’s what they do.
I have flashbacks all the time. I still can’t beleive how anyone who I at one time trusted, trampled and trashed upon my existence in her cheap pursuit of NS? They remind me of desperate teenage dug addicts, willing to do anything to obtain their fix! While bewildered grown-ups just sigh in reproachful disbelief and question ‘Where or what did we do wrong?’

What is particulary insidious and alarming about my N, is her perverse new foray into the world of Psychology. After her self pitying therapy sessions for ‘depression’ (which was in reality withdrawal symptoms from lack of NS)
She now calls herself ‘normal’ and pathologizes all others! (Which is why I avoid the term “normal’, because I know how much she perverts it by applying it to herself!)
Most people are willing to admit to their flaws and their faults, I certainly was. Whilst my N was always beyond reproach, self or otherwise!
I pray to God they never let her loose around vulnerable people, she has no interest in helping anyone apart from herself. Yet the thrill of imagining herself as some mentor or healer, but more importantly having power and control over others is what ‘flips her Narcissistic switch’, no doubt?
Whatever a Narcissist is doing, they are never doing it well, and always doing it for the wrong reasons! Phil

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185. Lesley - August 27, 2012

Hey Trapped,
Just wanted to say that the ‘flashbacks’ are normal. I still have them too and they are mostly now…expressions of my ex’s face usually whilst denegrating me.These are lessening for me and much better than the month or two after it ended.
In response to your post about the risks they take with reputation… I believe this is finally what will bring my ex down. My ex also works for the Government or it sometimes seemed that the Govt worked for him(lol).
He often said to me’Well,I’d better get back to sailing the Ship of State’ He was near the top of the tree in a particular institution and the irony of that can still make me smile.
His behaviour was reckless,always self satisfying,frankly dangerous at times.Very duplicit and shocking.
In a very select restaurant once he began to have an attack of ‘psychotic jealousy’ about the fact that I smiled at a couple sitting at the next table.He began to lose control,turning his chair around to face them and was about to confront the man.We were seconds away from some act of violence or verbal abuse.I reminded him in a low voice of his job, of how the press would become involved, of how he would lose his job…slowly he returned to a semblance of normality.
This was only a semblance because back in the hotel room he was abusive to me for a couple of hours.He ripped the dress I was wearing and said he never wanted to see it again.(It was a normal black dress,knee length???)
One of the reasons it is so important for me to slouch around in jeans and t shirts is how he tried to control how I looked? One of the weirdest experiences I had was going into his house one day and seeing that he had made a gallery of ‘me’.These were all pictures he had taken of me,dressed up, with make up on etc.These pics led through the hall into the living area.I had been made into ‘an idealised object’.(Jan,I sent you the real me,no make up,messy hair!!).
After the discard I knew so much about his activities that I could have gone to the newspapers.I had proof of all sorts of wrongdoing but it’s simply the case that he will end up doing himself in. It may take a year or two but it will happen.Any sense of revenge I had is gone or much less important.
I remain confused at how he landed his job in the first place,as Jan has referred to…Narcs can ace interviews? He is excellent at using others as shields or extracting their skills so that is why I think he could go on for a year or so. Trapped, I suspect your ex will be the same. Exposure is waiting for them…
Light Shine,
Les

Yikes! On TV, when the police close in on the serial killer/stalker, they always find that collection of pictures of their victim. Yes, your pictures were “on display” which all seems a tad creepy, but when you realize the N likes to look out over his “accomplishments” (and for somatic Ns, collecting women fits the bill) it makes sense. You WERE an idealized object. His Picassos? LOL As usual, I’ve spent to long commenting and am now rushed to get to school. 🙂 Jan

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phil835 - August 27, 2012

Hi Lesley,
I think you are unique in having been at some stage the Prinary and idealised source of supply for your Narc. I’m not sure if I will call it a priviledge though? 😉
I think it’s interesting, becuase even though you once occupied the role of Primary NS, you never really were what you were supposed to be. And more to the point, who is or who can be?

I noticed the reality gap in my N’s idealisation of what a Primary NS should be, in relation to who the real person actually is?

The owness is then on the said Primary NS source to ‘live up’ to the N’s ideal expectation. This can never happen. Even if faced with the most malleable person in the world doing their best to please the N. Even if that person came close to succeeding, Ironically they would probably then get bored, lose interest and have contempt for that person. It’s a no win situation for whoever they get!

I remember you saying in an earlier post how your N constantly Idealised and denigrated you. I think he was trying to control and shoehorn you into being something close to his idealised primary NS source?

I have to say that I think in a ‘Nomal’ (I hate that term but I’ll use it) that we all idealise to some extent when we are in love. For me at least, it means doing a bit of ‘selective ignoring’ of a persons flaws and concentrating on their better sidet! And I to say that the people I love most, I actually see their flaws and accept them.:D A Narc can never do this, or even love in the way others can. What they think is Love is for them NS.

I must admit your N’s ‘shrine’ in his home took me by surprise and sounds creepy! I was more expecting him to have pictures of himself plastered all over the place.

And as for an N coming unstuck. I think that about my N but at the same time I can’t beleive their luck as it appears from where I’m looking. The Risks she takes are unbeleivable and how she’s managed to stay alive and in one peice, let alone function in a position of responsibility really does amaze me! I know it’s not my job to knock her down, she will do that herself eventually. Nobody’s luck lasts for ever and eventually life catches up with them! Phil

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Lesley - August 27, 2012

Hey Phil,
I’m doing what us women do best Phil…multi-tasking,because I’m watching a Graham Greene film,checking the guardian live sports blog for the Murray match,he’s winning! and writing this.
Yes he did idealise me at the beginning and at times throughout…and he got more and more frustrated as the real human Lesley did not match up to the ideal.Sometimes you could see him casting around for faults…trying to find sg to pick an argument about.
I also think that when Narcs feel close to someone…they recognise their own vulnerability and then the fear takes over.
They react by pushing you away and this is the denigration phase. For me it happened over and over again.
With regard to the pictures(LOL),yes it was creepy and even creepier that he kept all of our pics together.I wanted them back…but no.
He may have another woman’s face in the frames now..in fact I would expect that.Women are simply objects to him.Maybe he’ll start a collection?
I agree that idealisation is fairly normal at the start of a relationship but eventually it’s the quirks in someone or even flaws that make someone individual to a partner. I never saw evidence that my ex saw the individual in me.He talked a great game tho’.
I’m a bit regretful that I didn’t get the shoehorning bit earlier Phil or even that I complied at all. We live and learn.
I am filled with ‘non narcissistic rage’ that Eurosport are
streaming minor matches tonight whilst the number three seed is being radioed/live blogged!! Aarrgh!(LOL)
Les

I believe multi-tasking is what women are wired to do as when you have a child you spend almost an entire decade running, fetching, and never being able to complete a sentence when speaking with other adults. >wink< I have 25 new students who each think that they are my #1 priority! Yes, I do think in those moments when it seems like you're "finally" seeing something real, the N feels vulnerable (Vulnerable=Scared) and retreats. Jan
Sorry, but I can't help you with you ongoing tennis addiction. 🙂

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186. MillyRad - August 27, 2012

Ugh! He strikes again!

I’m a (very) part-time musician, and the band I’m in played at an event yesterday. My ex friend has been somewhat involved in our performances. He does a pretty good job at a performance, but he’s definitely not a team player so we don’t insist that he come to every practice. Our guitar player had semi-emergency surgery on his shoulder three days ago. His doctor said it was fine for him to play, but the painkillers made him a bit less detail oriented than usual. The venue was scenic, but quite rustic- a picnic pavilion in a small state park. We had a few strikes against us, and we could’ve used a few more microphones and extension cables. And we forgot a few things, but we were all being flexible and working with what we had. Almost all of us, anyways. One of the things that we forgot was a music stand for my ex friend. When he showed up very late and found out that his music stand wasn’t there, he told our drummer that we must not really want him there and that he was leaving 4 or 5 times, and then went off in a huff.

Maybe I’m being paranoid, but, to me, it looked like he came up there to pull some passive aggressive nonsense and then leave. I don’t think he he planned on performing at all. He had told another bandmate that he wanted to do a runthrough of the of the show beforehand. A perfectly feasible idea…if he’d decided to show up for it! He didn’t come until, literally, 2 minutes before we were scheduled to play. He also claimed that he wasn’t told which picnic pavilion to go to. There is only one in the park with a parking lot and he’s been to that particular park more times than I have, and he used to live just down the road from it. He didn’t even show up in the proper attire. For whatever reason, I think he decided he didn’t want to perform that day and showed up just long enough to plop the blame down on other people.

I thank my lucky stars that all I saw before the show was him show up for a couple of minutes and then leave. I wondered why he didn’t get on stage, but I was too busy and nervous to worry about it much. I only found out about his tantrum after the show was over.

I’m feeling pretty angry. At first, I felt guilty that we’d been inconsiderate to my ex friend and I felt the urge to apologize for his behavior. But now I feel angry that I wasted time preparing myself for having to be around him and then HE just bails. I feel angry that the crap I put up with, he’s now dishing out onto my friends. They don’t deserve that. At the same time, I feel a bit validated, though. I think my bandmates finally saw that my ex friend is not just a diva performer, but also a volatile, destructive, and untrustworthy person. I’m starting to feel brave enough to maybe make the request that he not be invited back to perform with us.

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phil835 - August 27, 2012

Hi Millyrad,

I’m not sure how your show went as a group? I would love to have had tickets to your N’s tiara flinging performance though! 😀
Prima Donnas usually expect everyones full and undivided attention, even a quick cameo followed by exit stage left and they still expect everyone to come running? 😉

I think you nailed his intentions and motives quite well. As I said in a previous post, watch HOW they do something reveal why they do something!

“I wondered why he didn’t get on stage?”
I think you’ll find they are on stage all the time Millyrad, it’s tiring work being a Narc! 😉

I remember my N in similar situations. I think you’ve really got his number and what his game is all about. I think you’re safe to say he NEVER intended to perform with your group.
What’s coming back to me about similar situations with my N, is how real dialogue between adults in a conciliatory way, was never something she intended as part of her strategy, if indeed she were capable of it! It’s all just one big drama and a game to the Narc. Phil

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MillyRad - August 28, 2012

There was a time when I was kind if my ex friend’s go to person at performances. If he needed something I’d find it for him. That’s not something I’ve done since our friendship ended, and wasn’t my job at this show. One of the things he said to our drummer before he left was, “It’s like you guys don’t even want me here.” The guilting stuff like that still has quite an effect on me. Confession: I went back to the park to look around and see if there was anything I could have substituted for a music stand. Part of my brain knows that he’d already decided he wasn’t going to perform and, that even if we found a gilded podium with his name engraved onto it, he would’ve just found another excuse and another way to pass blame. Another part if my brain is all too willing to accept blame and be guilted. Sounds like something I need to work on.

If I ever start a band of my own, I would seriously consider the name, “Tiara Flingers.”. 😀

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MillyRad - August 28, 2012

Oh, and your advice, Phil, to go beyond watching what they do versus what they say, also watching how they do things, is great!

I remember a time when my ex friend was involved in a local theater group. They were rehearsing in the building where I have a studio. Only people who work there or rent there have keys to the doors and the doors are kept locked by maintenance during non-public hours. One of the young women with whom he was rehearsing, somehow got a cut on her hand. It wasn’t severe, but it was bleeding a bit. My ex friend bolted outside to get the first-aid kit he kept in his car, but since it was during non-public hours and he’s neither a renter nor employee, the door he went out locked behind him! Apparently he pounded on the door a bit, then was able to reach someone inside by cell phone and finally was let in. He was absolutely livid and was stomping around saying how he should have keys to the building, then got in his car and peeled out of the parking lot.

When I first heard about this, I thought that it must’ve been frustrating for him to be worried about his friend and that he wanted to have more of a part in the community. But now, looking back, it just seems like his chance to play hero to an attractive young woman got squashed and HE wound up needing help to even get back inside! Who knows if he even asked if his friend was okay.

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187. Lesley - August 27, 2012

Hi there,Millyrad,
What a gameplayer this guy seems to be…this is the same guy that criticised the tattoos when he knew you had them right?
He comes across as being very’entitled’ …perhaps he expected a fanfare at his arrival or sg.
I do think seriously that you should pursue your request that he not be asked to perform again. Who needs that hassle?
It’s quite telling that for an instant you felt that you should apologise to him…Narcs are excellent at perfecting the kind of passive aggressive response that turns them into the victim and ourselves the persecutors.
However,only if we let them. It’s just an opinion but I bet this guy would hate to be completely ignored.He seems to be begging for a reaction?
Les

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MillyRad - August 28, 2012

Yeah, same guy. He would’ve gotten a warm welcome (from the other band members, at least) if he’d just showed up on time! He’s usually pretty punctual. That’s another reason I really suspect he never planned to perform that day.

He’s pretty good at what he does, but not put-up-with-a-crazy
-diva good. Our drummer, who is still on good terms with him, wants to apologize so he’ll consider doing the next show with us. I hope she doesn’t. She did forget about his music stand, so I guess that’s appropriate to apologize for, but his over the top reaction was uncalled for. I hope she leaves it at that and doesn’t do any sucking up to him. My ex friend just eats up apologies, but never gives any real ones to other people.

I personally feel unsafe around my ex friend. I can be professional and deal with working with him occasionally, but at this point, I don’t trust that there’s more than a 30% chance that he won’t bail on us next time. So frustrating. :/

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188. Donna - August 27, 2012

Hey to all, I just needed to contribute this post for me and to anyone here it might help. Music helps me heal from my encounters. I love all types of music classical, jazz, ole school, salas, country and some smooth jazz, even some Hip Hop, etc.

So here is a list of a few that have helped me and make me want to dance!!!
1. Natasha’s “Pocket Full of Sunshine”
2. Gotye’s “Someone I use to Know.”
3. Nelly Fatadas’s “Say it Right”
4. Jill Knight’s “Loneliness”
I don’t listen to Adele’s anymore because that’s in my past. Most these are on YouTube.

Dancing is the one of the biggest voids in my life and I plan to fill it in at home and on a few up coming outings.Take care everyone, I needed and need some Me time. :=)))!!!

That’s so interesting as Gotye’s “Someone I used to Know” came up the other day on the blog as seemingly being about a N. I find no greater solace than music whether is just to chill out or cranking it up full volume on the way to school. Dance away! Jan

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189. phil835 - August 27, 2012

Hi Donna, nice playlist!) I think life is more bearable if you have a great soundtrack. Not sure how much mine would help anyone including myself, but here goes!

1. Billy Bragg – A New England
(There’s also a great cover for the girls by the late Kirsty MacColl. With one of the funniest lines ever in some song lyrics, “It’s wrong to wish on space hardware”)
2. Damien Rice – 9 Crimes
3. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart – Piano Concerto No. 23 in A major, K. 488: 2nd movement.
4. nina simone – feeling good
5. The Supernaturals – Smile
6. Fleetwood Mac – Go Your Own Way

Phil

Would you believe that my husband knew Billy Bragg in NYC? They met at a party and he used to send my husband funny emails. It’s IS a small world. Nina Simone is always good. Jan

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phil835 - August 28, 2012

Hi Jan,
It is a small world. Billy Bragg’s song was made famous and is better known by Kirsty MacColl’s versiion. She died in a boating accident some years ago,. As a tribute and in honour of MacColl, Bragg now sings the extra verses from her version of New England. Nina is great also! Phil

Phil, Your saying that reminded me that when my English Lesley was here, she also told me about Kirsty MacColl’s death. When I said, “Who?” She was aghast and had me watch the Youtube video and read about the boating accident. She’s also introduced me to Jona Lewie’s “You’ll Always Find Me In the Kitchen at Parties” which is now on my iPod. Jan

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190. snlgant - August 28, 2012

I have a song 🙂
‘ My give a Damn’s busted ‘
Jo Dee Messina

Thats where I am at right now.

I’ll check Youtube to see this one! Jan

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Lesley - August 29, 2012

Hi Snigant and all,
Just checked this out and ‘Lessons in Leaving’ and I can see why they hit the spot!
It got me to thinking about my ex’s tastes in music and how they differed from mine..he used music as solely mood altering/and for it’s technical aspects rather than because it had a special meaning for him or was attached to a memory of another person.
So I suppose he used music in the same way he used people.
I remember saying to him ‘Oh that song was playing when I was in my last year at school’ or ‘they played that at my son’s birthday party’ and he would look blank.
Music was enjoyed as something for him alone and not ever as a shared experience with other people.He didn’t seem to have access to such memories or they weren’t important?
He also used it to purpose however..and at the time I found this endearing…at the start of our relationship he had saved music on his PC that he ‘hoped’ I’d like. It was as if he had bothered to download some romantic songs especially for me? I found out that these were generic,multi purpose’seduction’ songs that he had been using for years!!
All he did was change the woman’s name on the file!

You gotta laugh….

Les

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phil835 - August 29, 2012

Hi Lesley,
I think you’ve echoed these sentiments in previous posts, I felt similar emotions with my N also. You struck a chord with me last time, but I didn’t comment. Everybody has so many worthwhile and pertinent things to say, it often becomes a lottery on what particular aspects of a post to pick out and respond to. As this topic is especially dear to your heart, I’ll add my own experience and see how it relates to others.

I noticed, or should I say felt. Whenever my N said ‘How do you think this looks?’ or “What do you think to this?’ she was asking questions which were seemingly about my opinions or advice. But even when she was asking me directly, I always felt her mind was on what other people at large will think and how they will react? I felt as though she was devaluing my individual opinion, while clearly she had her focus on how the masses would react!
The narcissist crafts their image for the widest of distribtion.
If I share an intimate experience, then it becomes personal in nature and unique. Even at the time of experiencing something personal and unique, it’s as though the Narcissist already has their mind on branding it to mass produce and sell elsewhere!
That special song, place, photos anything else you thought was unique?
Find them all in the public domain along with the Narc! Phil

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snlgant - August 29, 2012

Jan, Phil, Les, Donna, thanks to you all. My backbone has connected to my brain at last. The fog has cleared and I have renewed energy I thought was lost forever. I now know that this crap is more terminal than stage four cancer In the last phase. Alas, I know I can move on. I am so coming up off of the floor one once at the time and it feels GOOD. The better I am feeling the less emotion sucking emotional juice the N soon to be out of my life has. I can BREATH !!!! I appreciate y’all for letting me break my silence. I’m coming back and I don’t plan on waiting to be defeated again by anything else that doesn’t deserve the Me that I am. I’m not looking past anything but my escape plan. Thank y’all infinity. I do not wish to remain wallowing in sorrow- I’m striving for success with out him holding me down any longer

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191. Lesley - August 28, 2012

Love this,mine would be…
‘Alison’ by Elvis Costello
‘Let’s Dance’ Bowie
O Very Young’ Cat Stevens
‘The Way You Look Tonight’ sung by Tony Bennett
‘Are we Human’ The Killers
and my favourite song…
‘Loving her was easier than anything I’ll ever do again’.Nelson/Kristofferson version.(Brilliant!)
Off to listen to them again! Les

I’ve got all of Elvis Costello, David Bowie, and The Killers on my iPod! Did you know that before Willie Nelson was all old and crusty looking, he was a ginger! haha Jan

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Moon - August 28, 2012

Hi everyone,i must add that i love Lenny kravitz,stand by my woman. I dream of a man singing me that song and meaning it.that wouldnt be an N though would it?also Lenny kravitz looks very nice in tight leather trousers.by the way Jan my N is ginger with a ginger beard to go with it,many times looking crusty!my granny used to say that fathers with rust in their willies have ginger sons,thought this would give a giggle.love moon

Haha! I did the trick. Jan

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192. Lesley - August 29, 2012

Hi Phil,
Yes, Intellectually I know what you say is spot on..and a couple of weeks ago I did work out that this is what remains ‘sore’ for me.
I’ve accepted wholly that I was a checklist, I ticked a few boxes for him,at a particular time in his life and for a particular interlude.
In facing up to this…it’s like I have half- healed.
However,as a ‘normal'(and I don’t like that description either lol),emotionally I am still slightly raw. As you know, and many other people on this forum know…Narcs idealise exceptionally well,a perfect simulation of real deep feeling..and sometimes I remember this.The words he said etc.
If I have flashbacks about the denigration,then sometimes I do find myself reflecting on ‘the good times’ and possibly this is even more painful. It’s like reflecting on a mirage. Exactly that,in fact.You would walk up to it and expect to find water and it would vanish before your eyes!
I met my ex in April 2010 and was in a relationship with him a month or two after. It ended in March to all intents and purposes this year.
You are absolutely correct that much of what he constructed…was for the masses( his status,to look like he was in a relationship etc) or for his future with other women. He will use what he obtained from me in his forthcoming relationships.
My comment about my songs playlist,(and you’ve just made me realise this,Thanks)… I see now that my favourite songs are about people treating each other as individuals and seeing the flaws and differences and yet remaining accepting.
This,as a quality has always been really important to me and it was something that I felt my Narc attempted to remove from me..
but I guess the important point is that he didn’t manage to.
Cheers Phil.

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Trapped - August 30, 2012

Lesley,
I feel as though I am in the same place as you. What a sad thing it is to be in this position. It is a flip-flopping of feelings that go from hatred and disgust over what he did to me to remembering those moments when he was the dream person in my life. How good he was at creating those moments where I felt as though I would float on air!

But, as you said, if I were to step back and really look at those moments, I would see that he was simply being a magician, using smoke and mirrors to fabricate the things that he knew would set me sailing, only to achieve his NS. As I idealized him in those times, with adoring eyes and a body that was willing to give him whatever he wanted, he simply looked upon it as a hungry person does when the plate finally arrives at the table.
Once devoured, the plate goes off to the kitchen, out of mind.

For me, it was a constant roller-coaster of those very very extreme highs, followed by despair when he ignored me for days or put me in my place with a cold text. I would give up and decide it was time to move on, only to have him cast the net yet again and begin the cycle all over.

This went on for way too long, with the periods of me removing myself becoming longer and longer as I became stronger. It wouldn’t take much, though, for him to snap me right back where he wanted me if I allowed myself to be exposed to him. This is the very scary part. It is almost as though he has hypnotic powers.

I also have the same philosophy as you do on accepting people despite their flaws and loving them no matter what. For me, though, this is what kept me involved with him for so long. I convinced myself that I could love him despite his obvious problem. It took me quite some time to see that it was a one way street and that although he appreciated getting love, he was in no way, shape, or form capable of giving even a smidgen of it in return. I had two horrible accidents while i was seeing him-a horse threw me and stepped on my back, breaking 4 ribs and puncturing both lungs, a second one, just a month ago breaking all the bones around my right eye. His reaction was very typical for a N-he said it made HIM feel bad to see someone else in pain, and he became very scarce.Only a few texts like “You are a fast healer.”

Ha. I felt like saying “let me show you how it REALLY feels.”

Anyway, I think we still should love people as they are, despite their flaws. In my opinion, this is true love, unconditional. Isn’t this what all the sages strive for?

But in my case, I will be more selective if I ever get another opportunity to feel love again in my lifetime. I recently read about a woman who was found dead in NYC, a wife of a businessman. She met her husband and after a whirlwind romance of one month, they got married. They separated after a year and she was devastated. She fell down some stairs (shady story) while he was away on a trip in England and died. I wondered, when I read the article if he was a narc and she was in the throws of dealing with it. Am I jaded forever?

Lesley, we’ve both been out of our relationships for about the same length of time, though I think I was in mine a little longer (met him Aug. 2009). Maybe there is some normal process, you know, like the grieving process, that we have to go through? Maybe these flashbacks are just part of it. I have had zero contact with him for almost 3 weeks now, thanks to new phone numbers, new e-mail addresses, and travel. He left two messages on my work phone, the last one a week ago saying “I guess we won’t talk anymore” (this after the message a few days earlier saying “this is probably the last time I will try to call you”). But I think this may be it, finally.

That’s it for now. Those are my thoughts tonight as I sweat away, though there is a very nice breeze picking up. What else can I say to end this? I could quote some of the Buddhist readings or Hindu texts I’ve read and say things like “everyone comes into our lives for a reason”, but I cannot say for sure this applies here. The only reason I can see at this moment is that we are nice, giving people and there are always opportunists ready to prey on us. In the end, I suppose it is how we put this experience behind us that makes the difference.

For now, I choose to simply view him as someone who is pathetically mentally ill and I try not to feel malice or anger about it. Instead, I only feel concern for myself that I would be sucked into such a scam, just as someone would feel badly for being taken at the market or at a car dealers.

And when I get those flashbacks-the good and the bad-I simply remind myself that it was really only a mirage, just some very strange, odd time in my life where things were just a little too good, a little too fast, for only one reason, they weren’t real.

Your jadedness will eventually give way to wisdom. It takes time. I met my dear friend Lesley (my English Lesley as opposed to Scottish Lesley!) on a NPD forum five years ago. With all the pain we went through at the time, we now rejoice in that it lead to us meeting each other and becoming best friends. Although we have that history, but we’ve both been able to move on. At the time, I never could have imagined that anything good would have come out of my close encounter with a narcissist, but ultimately that was what led me to begin blogging…and now I’m talking to you. Life is funny that way. 🙂 Jan

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snlgant - August 30, 2012

Trapped, I wanted to respond to your post. I don’t want to regret my past, I want to learn from it. Mental abuse is worse than physical because if it were physical you would at least be able to swing back without confusion or hesitation. I realize that I am waiting out my circumstances so please don’t think I am judging you. On the contrary, seeing things for what they are finally is half of the battle for me right now. Let me give you an example of myself. When I was 5 years old my parents got my first bicycle for me. It was so pretty and I was so excited. It was my world at that stage in my life. Well you probably guessed, during my first try at riding, I fell and scuffed myself up pretty good. I got right back on the next day after a little hesitation. I just knew when I could ride without falling and getting scuffed up it would be great, like the kids next door who could jump ramps, race and go really fast happy as could be. If I quit believing it would be a lot of fun because i had a really bad crash I would never know how much fun and happiness I could truly have. I’m glad I listened to some good advice from my parents who encouraged me and gave me helpful hints on my next attempt. I went a little further each time and learned to jump ramps with a few more bumps and scuffs. I even won a few contests on that dreamy bike of mine, which was my life at that time 🙂 What if everytime I went back to learn to ride my bike I just kept replaying my crash in my mind? I would make it bigger than it really was and allowed myself to become defeated. I know that there are really good people in this world and I am one of them. I may need a few hints on how to get back up and grounded and most of all learn to love, forgive and trust my own judgement again. There is happiness in life. With every breath I desire to become stronger and find happiness at the right time with wisdom, support, great folks like you, Jan, Les, Phil and Donna to talk to. I hope you realize that one really bad ‘Crash’ does not define you or the quality of life you are entitled to have. We deserve to be whole and happy ….. With a little encouragement from folks that care, we just might find happiness in life again, true happiness we deserve.

Exactly! One “crash” doesn’t define you. You don’t have to crash and burn. It’s not as much about falling down, but about getting back up. I always tell my third graders that anyone can be on top of the world when things are going their way. It’s when you’re down that your true character show. I have to say that I’m so pleased at what a wonderful group of people have come on to support one another! You guys are awesome! 🙂 Jan

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193. Lesley - August 30, 2012

Hi Trapped,
I’m due back to work(Friday) after a fairly long summer break and it’s my last night of staying up late…my night turns to day when I’m off.
I get a lot of what you say. I hit a bit of a wall a couple of weeks ago with regard to my feelings and recognised that I had to admit to myself that they had ran very deep. However,
I also had to admit that my’inverted’ ego had been telling me for a long time in the relationship that I might be able to change him and that I would be ‘the exception’ to a Somatic Narc’s rule.Please imagine that I am kicking myself when I say that.
I woke up 6 months ago and decided to call him on it.
100%when I confronted him about his behaviour…the lies,pursuing other women etc… I knew it would be over.
So thankfully whatever sense of esteem I had, got me out of it and kept me out of it… I doubt I will ever see or hear of him again..
I work on pity for him,perhaps forgiveness will come and on forgiving myself for staying as long as I did.
For me comparisons have got me through. I have loved others unconditionally before and been loved. I see this episode as an aberration but one that I can learn from. Everyone has flaws and habits but when someone’s flaws and habits detract from you…and you enable this or allow it to go on…then this,for me is not unconditional love? I am wary of those rollercoaster highs! For me a relationship deepens when there is consistency which feeds trust.
‘Healthy love of oneself’- I think allows us to love others…and this is precisely what a Narc prevents us from doing?
Trapped, it’s great that you have even come three weeks without contact but absolute No Contact is the only way.
I disagree with you about one thing(LOL). They are not hypnotists!
Unless it’s self hypnosis..because the person they are fooling is primarily themselves..we wake up from the trance and go on.They go back to sleep.
On Friday,invariably one of my students will be reading a magazine article or a colleague will have a self- help book open about relationships. Some of these are very helpful but there is a big problem,particularly for women.. All of these articles will list pointers about ideal relationships or’How to tell if someone is interested in you’. You get my drift….Here is the problem. Somatic Narc’s could have written these books!
They have the idealisation phase of a relationship down to a tee. They pursue hard,they compliment,they are perfect gentlemen,…they are so, so into you!
Most women,myself included, want that?
Nobody wants a woose…hence the door is left open for these guys..one of the things that Jan’s blog has given me is the skills to spot the nuances of differences. It’s also great to see that normal guys like Phil and Chris and others have been taken in the same way too. Together we’ll get there.
You will get another opportunity to feel love again, it’s a long life.

Light Shine,
Lesley

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194. Trapped - August 30, 2012

Lesley, thanks for your words. Yes, I agree on your comments about a narc writing those articles we see in the “glam” magazines about “how to tell he is into you”. I swear, I used to think he read those because he seemed to follow those ‘rules’ to a t…until the devaluation started. Then, the first time I was “devalued”, I excused him, thinking it was a bad day for him. The next time, I decided to give up on him, and was surprised when he came running after me…

Then, the cycle begins. As you said, they mold us and train us and make us part of it without us even being aware what is going on. I used to think of it as how a cat chases a mouse, catches it, and tortures it, not quite killing it, but leaving it alive just so that it has something to play with. When the poor mouse starts to run away, the cat claps it paw down on it again and bats it around until it is stunned again. It does this over and over. I am sure the poor mouse wishes the cat would just eat it and get the whole thing over…but the cat has this sick need to play.

And yes, we enable them by taking part in it, but we do so involuntarily because through some sick, twisted way, they’ve got us hooked into it all.

Unlike you, I’ve never had a true love in my lifetime. I’ve had plenty of relationships, a few with very nice men. I was married for 20+ years to a man who was a friend to me, more than anything else, and who, at the time, I thought was as good a choice as any to marry. It wasn’t a healthy marriage at all, but time goes by and we raised two kids. I guess this is why I now feel like this is it for me. I’ve had my chances and blew them on the wrong people. Though I am only in my very early 50s, I feel like love is one area of my life which won’t ever materialize, especially after this whole thing. I do have men who pursue me, but I am not attracted to them in the same way the narc was able to get my attention. Plus, right at this stage, it is too raw to even think about anyone else.

So, that’s it. It is in the wee early hours of the morning and time for me to change and go out to take a moonlit run…blue moon on the 31st. I just looked out the window and it is spectacular in the western sky at the moment. I heard a few owls yesterday morning for the first time in months. Not sure where they’ve been!

It is funny, I just looked at my calendar, which has Chinese drawings of cats on each month. This month has a drawing of a cat batting a frog. The frog is looking pleadingly at the cat, who has one paw in the air, ready to swipe. No more swiping at me!

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195. Lesley - August 30, 2012

Hi Trapped,
No more taking the swipes!
It’s funny but the famous book and film ‘He’s Just not that into You’ is actually true,It’s written in a catchy jingoistic way but it’s premise is accurate!
Normal guys show you when they are interested and mean it…Narcs show you when they are interested yet mean they are desperate for NS!
You say ‘I do have guys that pursue me but I am not attracted to them in the same way the Narc was able to get my attention’
This is a warning bell for me or it used to be…sometimes we want something that its hard to pin down or become addicted to highs and lows? As a young woman I was like this. I call it’Being In love with love’
Perhaps Narc’s can recognise this tendency in others and exploit it.
Perhaps at times Normals do not recognise this tendency in themselves? They stay hoping for too long.
Sadly this can get worse and all sorts of co dependent/personality disordered people pursue Narcs like camp followers living off crumbs.
This is why No Contact is the only way. It restores your self esteem and gives you recovery time.You’ll do it…Keep going.
I actually think that those who keep on going back to Narcs or pursue them have serious issues?
My ex was my first Narc. Thank God. He was also my last!!!
I have had two’true loves’. I don’t think there is one for person for everybody. I married when I was quite young and still have a lot of love for my ex husband. The other day there was a thunderstorm and torrential rain here and my wee rose patch got decimated…a car drew up,my ex husband got out(with a warm coat in his arms).He put the coat on me and then tied up all the roses..’Love you’ he says,then went off.We grew apart and wanted different lives but there is still a ‘different’ love there? After my divorce I had a long term relationship which had to end because he wanted to have children and I didn’t want more kids? We couldn’t compromise? I see these relationships as making me the person I am…and sadly my experience with the Narc! adds to that too.? I’m in my mid forties not eighties and not about to take the veil yet..(lol).that would mean the Narc had won?
The frog in your calendar can hop away remember…and just leave that cat swiping at thin air?

Light Shine and I wish you more lovely Owls…it’s foxes and hedgehogs here,
Les

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trapped - August 30, 2012

Wow Lesley, I loved that story about the roses! So poetic, really! That is a wonderful thing that you can share your love like that! I am still friendly with my ex and he also helps me with a crisis (was great when I broke my face last month), but, as I said, we were always friends more than lovers.

I also just wanted to comment on your ideas that someone who pursues a narc is likely a little off…yes, I agree, this is certainly true. I am doing, as I’ve mentioned in earlier posts, a lot of introspection to see what caught me in that trap. He, too, was my first (and hopefully last) narc. Part of it, I think, is that he caught me at just the right place and time in my life. Synchronicity? He has led me to a lot of introspection and seeking, which is a good thing, right? If I ever do find that nice, lighted exit-way from this tunnel, I can only imagine how much more strong and self-assured I will be.

His others, at least the ones I know of, are good case studies. Two of them constantly post photos of themselves, often not too fully-clothed, on their Facebook pages and post constantly about how wonderful they are…red flags. These things speak of self-esteem issues if you ask me. I am not judging them (or am I?), I am just agreeing with what you said earlier and it makes me sad to see them being preyed upon…

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Lesley - August 30, 2012

Hey Trapped.,
Thanks for that and sorry about your poor face..hope it’s healing now. I see my ex husband as a brother now,he is a good guy but a true batchelor at heart. He was a competitive racing cyclist and we had a few great years and have a lovely 22yr old son..life evolves.
Grieving is good, no way do I see you as a Narc camp follower…just don’t pick up the phone to him…! Or Feisty one… I will be feistier!!!
As for the scantily clad women on facebook,feel pity for them?
Earth calling Jan/Ginger(LOL),…what about a Janwise article on Narc Pairings? I’m thinking of Sam Vankin’s girlfriend here…who identifies as an’Emotional Masochist’…er WTF?Does she like being humiliated as a woman on a daily basis?
This is why I don’t really subscribe to Vankin.
Trapped,get you about synchronicity. I had just recovered from massive car crash,had been single for a while…maybe they have a seventh sense or sg?
Still synchronicity can work positively too. Someone’s waiting in the pale blue moonlight..the serious moonlight… I’m breaking into Bowie here!
One thing I remembered. Do not feed the Narc! I sent him e mails asking for response too. Shame on me.. All this does is stroke their ego.
Step away from asking for clarification. Even if they give it ,it’s a lie?
Les
PS(Jan).JANWISE is now added to my dictionary…

You’re too funny. I’ll believe it when I see it in the Urban Dictionary. I sent a letter to the N after the D&D thinking it would strike a chord, but it was only a sour note. I received no response. We were working in the same school at the time, so then I felt really dumb for making this last gesture. But, I got over it. Silly me. I was only acting human! Jan

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196. Donna - August 30, 2012

To Les, Trapped, Jan and Snlgant, I just read these latest postings today and I am amazed at how much I have been thinking and feeling very much all the same thoughts. It must be this “Blue Moon” aura in the universe. I have not had any physical contact with my N friend since Nov of last year, however thoughts of him keep popping in my head and it makes me angry and sad at the sametime. I gave my friendship to him with all the genuine, caring and honesty that I have always given to my friends for many years and I got duped….

I accepted him with all his warts and idiosyncrasies and stood by and supported him through a number of very difficult situations. As we all have experienced I didn’t recognize that I was on a timeline and when my time was up, he exercized his D&D and vanished into the night.

It’s a hard pill to swallow that a person could be so cold and as others have said, I am very gun shy right now……I was not a romantic partner in his life because I did recognize the “Red Flags” and I still got my feelings stomped on. I keep going back and forth about feeling sorry for him and wanting him to be punished and just becoming totally indifferent………..So my new friends I understand how everyone is feeling and I am hoping the this new “Blue Moon” will help me get to that place.

As far as finding a new, caring, sensitive and honest “significant other”, doesn’t appear to be in the hand I got dealt……

After a rough day being the squeaky wheel at my school, I’ve come to realize more and more that if you don’t like the cards you’ve been dealt, you need to draw some new ones or make your own. I’ve been kicking some serious ass today! You are ultimately the architect of your life. The only thing my mother EVER told me that made a bit of sense was “Never say never!” Yes, it’s hard to look back and realize it was YOU doing all the giving. Come to think of it, my dad who passed in March always said there were two kinds of people in the world…givers and takers. I’m afraid there are really three kinds as he didn’t factor in Narcissists though they’ve got the “taker” aspect covered. 🙂 Jan

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messedup2 - August 30, 2012

Nor I, it seems.

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trapped - August 30, 2012

Donna, that was me, I am not sure how i put that name in there, but I wasn’t implying you are messed up!! mistake on my part! Probably that blue moon kicking in. I was looking at it this morning while I was running and I can’t imagine how it can last until tomorrow to be full…it looks ready to burst already!

I saw that “Trapped” had the same quilt square assigned as “Messed Up?” I was wondering if that question mark indicated that you’re not subscribing to remaining “trapped.” 🙂 Jan

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Donna - August 31, 2012

Thank you Jan, I needed your comment today. I have not said to myself “Never” however, sometimes because of my personal self respect, past history with men and established boundaries I believe alot of Men would run, because I have been independent and taken care of myself and business for a very long time. I don’t know how to let a Man be here for me, because I have never had one that did or turn out to be a N.

I do have a hope and gratitude for all that I have gone through and I am still standing… Maybe ther is a good Man out there for Me, in the meantimes I have to be here for Me. I hope to see the “Blue Moon” to night. Luv, Donna

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197. phil835 - August 30, 2012

Hi Donna, Lesley, Trapped, snlgant.
So many great posts from you all, I apologise for the ones I don’t comment on.

I’ll start on something interesting Donna says, then add the third and final part of my wisdom to an earlier comment I made on Millyrad’s thread.

I’ve often said about the Narcissist: That you must watch what they do versus what they say, then you must watch HOW they do something to reveal why they do something (And the why is invariably for the purpose of NS!)

And finally to you all, myself included. For everything you could have predicted about your Narc, the signs or ‘red flags’ were there within a fortnight or at least within a very short time frame? Except you chose to ignore or overlook, perhaps you even chose or wanted to interpret these signs differently for whatever reason?

Everybody try it, go back and think about your very first encounters with your Narc, at the very inception of your relationship. I know hindsight is a wonderful thing, but then again so is foresight! 😀

And within that first fortnight, you’ll be able to remember those little ‘gut’ feelings that were at odds with what you wanted to think or feel?. That little itching, nagging uncomfortable feeling about something you swiftly overlooked or explained away to yourself?

Narcissists are by their very nature ‘actors’ and masters at ace-ing interviews. That is true. But they are nonetheless always ‘acting’. You may have been smitten by their first impressions. But their mask cannot hold in place indefinately 100% of the time. That’s why I said a fortnight or a very small timeframe for you to have seen it slip? Yet you may have ignored or overlooked it, given the wonderful first impressions they made on you?

I recently read an interesting article about a ‘pop’ Pyschologist who predicts the longevity of couples who are new to their relationships. He sits them down together and watches their interactions. If he spends 5 minutes observing them, he can predict with 95% accuracy whether ot not they will seperate within 3 years, or be celebrating their Golden wedding anniverary. However, if her spends an hour with a couple, his prediction accuracy is reduced to 50%. In other words, it’s as though with more information and time he has to reason with, the more his accuracy is reduced. It’s counter intuitive, it’s what he calls ‘thin slicing’.

I’m not a fan of the idea of speed – dating, it seems against my principles. I prefer to give everyone a fair and reasonable chance and prefer to spend time getting to truly ‘know’ a person without making rash decisions baswed on a whim. But in a way if I had trusted my ‘gut’ and been forced to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ to my Narc. (Rather than allowing the relationship to develop in an organic way) She would have been a definite NO! 😀 Phil

P.S. I want to make some more comments on all of your posts, this was longer than expected so I’ll send it now !:)

Phil, I know that I rationalized so many Red Flags very early on. I once read that when someone is abducted, it’s in the first 10-20 minutes that their instinct to escape is strongest. The longer they stay with their abductor, the more their mind begins to rationalize (if I just do what he says, he won’t hurt me…he doesn’t look like an evil person…) As evolved humans, our acquired intelligence often overrides our most basic instinctual gut reactions. Jan

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snlgant - August 30, 2012

Phil, you are right-O. I excused several small things before the ‘Main event’ on our honey moon or blue moon as is stated 🙂 I blew it off as a little skewing of a phrase, not even a complete sentence. Boy oh boy did I learn how Not to pay attention ! I accept full responsibility for my part. The reason it was not a complete sentence was because ( as trapped put it ) there is practically an assortment of personalities and sometimes they never cross check each other. In fact, I think all 15 try to speak at once, which explains the fragments 🙂 I tell him all the time that personality number one needs to check with the others before he settles on a matter of a fact. Man, his touch even lies 8-/
I tried to get him to leave again this morning. My hat is off to y’all. How did y’all ever do it? Y’all are blessed. I think I represent his mom 😕 If he really knew how much I want him GONE, oh well, never mind it would take half a test to get the same message to all of those personalities and by the time they all got it, the first ones would have started rearranging the truth ….. Oh well. One year and ten months and legal paperwork mixed in with a judges order aught to do something. I have to realize the stupidity of his actions and say really? Oh, wait a minute I’m dealing with one who never made it out of the cook-cooks nest and can morph into an assortment of characters: ie; the incredible hulk, bad spider man, the green-goblin, the guy from the note book, Jim Carey in the liar and the list goes on. I have to laugh to keep from punching myself. Until then, snlgant working and living on, ‘The not so funny, funny farm’

The N can play many parts. I don’t think they would be successful “method” actors as that school of acting requires you to access your own emotions and experiences. Their focus is on soliciting a reaction from their audience – even if it consists of only YOU. Jan

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snlgant - August 30, 2012

*Cuckoo’s nest .
I apologize to everyone and my self for my spelling error (s).

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Lesley - August 30, 2012

Snigant,
I get that the funny farm is not so funny…is there no way you can get out…have some order on the house so that you can have an option on it. Get back into it when you are earning more? Just commending you on your bravery because not sure I could do the day to day…I am aware I am seeing things from UK point of view here. A woman/or man who can prove abuse can get the incumbent out the family home?
On the funny side…you need to get your spidey webs on that Green Goblin..what an image!
Get a diary for that year and a bit and count it down…I send you strength…Keep on with your own ambitions/interests.
Les

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198. trapped - August 30, 2012

Phil, yes, yes, and YES! There were giant brazen red flags whipping in the gale force winds from second number one. Well, as you said, maybe not the first second because that was when he was doing his very good acting and got me by the collar. By the time those flags started to come into my consciousness, I had already been whipped and gave him the benefit of the doubt…again, and again, and again. I tend to accept everyone as they are and do not turn my back on them. But in this case, I was giving him waaaay too much leeway. I should have grabbed those big flags and burned them like a giant effigy like the rebels do on the nightly news.

Donna, I totally agree with you about your feelings of when they ask your opinion on something. I always felt exactly the same way. I remember the first time I sent him this raw e-mail (by now you guys know I don’t mince words when I write), he was shaken. Not because of what I had said about the way he treated me (I was graphic in depictions of a lion leaving it’s dead prey to rot after it had it’s fill), but about whether or not OTHERS perceived him the same way. Incredible. Giant, nuclear-explosion-sized red flag.

I also remember an episode in the past year in which he was all excited to go try some submersion tank thing. I was very curious to hear how it went. He was disappointed (probably not a deep enough person to really know how to meditate in there and, damn, it must be scary to be alone with himself because there are so many of him that they might gang up on him in that tank) Later he told me he mostly spent his time in there thinking about what he would tell OTHERS about his experience. I stared at him when he told me that and thought to myself “figures.”

Amazingly, this guy took my written abuse many times in e-mails and just kept coming back to me for more. I told him exactly what I thought. He never denied a word. Sometimes he would say “there is some truth in what you write and some that is not true”, but he would never ever clarify what was what. He seemed to enjoy keeping me in the dark and guessing. This is all part of his game that he often put under the guise of “I am a private person”. My feeling is that when you share some of the most intense moments that two humans can share, there aren’t too many secrets…but I guess I am just naive. Those moments were intense for me, but just physical for him.

I am pretty sure I got whatever I wrote to him right and that he just didn’t have any concept of what was real in his life. I once wrote him and told him he was a narc and he admitted to it.

Anyway, Donna, I also share your sentiments of the conflicting feelings of wanting to punish him, feeling indifferent, and feeling sorry for him. There is less feeling sorry for him, I have to admit. From what I’ve read, the narc fully knows exactly what he is doing and he does it anyway. He knew he was hurting me, yet he kept on doing it, mainly because I allowed it. But I won’t take all the blame. I had asked him many times to please leave me alone, but he kept coming back with a lot of persistence, relentlessly pursuing me…again, very much like the cat and mouse. But that is the narc, isn’t it? A “normal” guy (we all love that term, don’t we?) would have totally said “I get it” and left me alone because he would have enough sensitivity to see what he was doing to me. Of course, a “normal” guy would never be doing the stuff the N did to me, so that is a mute point.

But maybe he didn’t know he was hurting me? Maybe if these individuals truly lack empathy, they cannot imagine the hurt they cause since they know no feelings, other than this constant hunger to try to obtain something they lack? I have to wonder. What do you guys think?

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199. Donna - August 30, 2012

At this point, I now believe that he knew actually what he was doing from the very beginning and my honesty and openness only gave him fuel to fake a friends only relationship with me. I spent a year and a half trying to see if he was really a good guy and he delivered until I started calling him on his Sh_t.

Les, I don’t take any offense by your comment, my step-dad was a raging alcoholic, I will admit that I can be some what nuerotic at times but I am not sick, messed up. I have also developed a pretty thick skin especially after surviving a career in Human Resources at a Corporate American Business for 30 years, raising my son as a single mom, owing my own home and surviving my own N exh. I am a Black Women. He played his part/role very well until he recognized that he had a fight back on his hands. I did fight back and stood my ground as well as informing him of my boundaries. He ignored everything. I have been told that I was a huge challenge for him to conquer. I sent three telling emails letting him know that I would not accept his friendship on his terms only.

He faked it for about five months (which I ignored) and then delivered an invitation to me to attend his son’s graduation where he delivered his killing cut to me and predicting my demise. At the same time he told his close friends that I was crazy….

So, my dear friends, it is what it is and he is what he is….”Me not Crazy” just a caring empathtic, compassionate person however I will be very careful moving forward. Not sure when I will be back here, I need to move on. Be Blessed everyone and I hope the “Blue Moon” brings some happiness and peace for All.

It’s interesting because it’s five years later and I’m still commenting about NPD, yet I’ve totally moved on in my own life. I’ve no interest in wallowing. I’m so over my “friendship” that it’s almost funny. But oh, the wonderful people I’ve met as a result of this awful experience. I can’t believe I’m saying this, but it made it all worthwhile. (But that’s said with a lot of water under the bridge.) A friend on Facebook (one of last year’s parents and also a very strong and proud Black woman put up this quote.”I tell the truth… because it hurts to bite my tongue!” The Truth WILL set you free! 🙂 Jan

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200. phil835 - August 31, 2012

Hi Everyone,
So many great points I wanted to talk on! It would take me a week to give each one the attention and a reasoned response they all deserve.
I will get round to this and I’ve not ignored any of your brilliantly insightful posts!
In the meantime, I’ve decided to indulge my own thoughts and post the final installment of the ‘wisdom’ I’ve developed from my own experience of the N.
So I’ll recap my previous points on how to interpret interaction with an N before adding the end part.

1. You must watch what they DO, verses what they say?
2. You must watch HOW they do something reveal why?
3. Interpret all ‘red flags’ using the above. Past, present or future

And finally, from the bitterest experience.

4. There is no such thing as ‘safe’ contact with a Narcissist!

Similar to Donna, I managed to ‘read’ and interpret points 1, 2 and 3 but I failed to ACT on point 4. That was my ultimate undoing and why I’m commenting on these posts. A Narcissist will damage your life even if you have their number and know their gaem. There is no such thing as safe contact with a Narcissist. They will damage and trash your life even from what you think is a ‘safe’ distance. Phil

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Donna - September 1, 2012

Thank you Phil for this reply I will definitely take this to heart and remember it always, if he should ever rise his ugly evil self in my direction in the future. They are never “Safe”. Also, I remember him saying that he has “Never Loved anyone enough” he liked some on occassion. WTF with all the many women he has had in his life. Also read somewhere that they get worse as they get older.

I haven’t been “In Love” in a very long time but I do remember how good it made me feel about myself and the other person. I truly hope that I will have that opportunity again in my life time. Hugs to everyone!

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201. phil835 - August 31, 2012

Hi All,

I found this interesting (3 pages) article covering Cluster B Persoanlity disorders as controllers, abusers, manipulators, and users in relationships.

http://counsellingresource.com/lib/therapy/self-help/understanding/

I have some points to comment on at least one post by Snlgant, but I feel out of my depth regarding the complexity of this particular Narc as the PD is comorbid and combined with other disorders I’m not especially familiar with, Lesley has a far greater understanding and working knowledge of the other personality disorders than I do. My N was quite an uncomplicated soul as far as N’s go! Phil

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202. Trapped - August 31, 2012

Hi everyone on this morn of a beautiful blue moon! I woke early (3 AM!) to the sound of two owls serenading each other and a big, soft light shining through my bedroom window! It is almost the end of my summer quarter and I’ve got a few huge papers to write by Sunday…so, I’m up to try to work before I go to my “real” job (the one that pays for school!). But, for sure, I’ll fit in a nice moonlit walk before I leave for work!

I read that the full moon is official as of 6:59 AM, LA time, but it is setting at around 6:34 AM. So if any of you are in LA, it will be a beautiful sight to watch it set over the ocean at almost the same time the sun comes up! I’ll be on the freeways, unfortunately!

I just wanted to comment on one thing Lesley said above…she is very right about e-mails or any contact being NS, no matter what the content. I’m sure that if I sent my ex-N an e-mail, even a completely vicious one, it would stoke his NS. This is how they operate. I’ve witnessed it first hand, then read about this in all the books about them. He eats it up, then comes back for more.

As I said earlier, I used to send him these e-mails detailing what a jerk he was, thinking to myself “that will send him off”. I was always surprised when my phone would ring or text, and it was him, acting as though nothing had ever happened. I know he had read them because at times, he would reference things I’d said, in a joking way.

So, be assured that I will not contact him again in any shape or form. My only concern is my office phone, without caller ID, which I have to answer and cannot change the extension. However, it has been two solid weeks since he has tried to call that number, so it is possible he has given up.

I also wanted to comment on Vankin’s book. Lesley mentioned the girlfriend and I had read that, too, somewhere (don’t think it was in the book, but in retrospect, he may have used her without referencing her directly). As I read that, I was thinking what a sad life it was to live like that. She wrote something about how she loves to live with those highs and how a narc was the only type of lover she would want because they were so exciting. I thought to myself as I read that “Hmmm, I think it is more exciting to get a bad tooth pulled-then at least it is done and you can start to feel better!”

Yes, there ARE highs with a narc, but they only last a very short while, and the lows are always there, even in the background of the highs (after you get a few D&Ds). I’m convinced that low level of stress and sadness that accompanies being with a narc can set a person up for a chronic illness. I know that at one point, when I was involved in being treated for a STD (compliments of the ex-N), I found out I had high blood pressure. This was a shocker to me since I am a thin person who runs, is a vegetarian, and has no other risk factors. My blood pressure had always been low, if anything. So, what was the cause all of the sudden? Stress. Bottom line.

My point is, and I am preaching to the choir here, ridding one’s life of such toxic exposure is not only essential for our souls, but also for our physical health.

I used to constantly think “what goes around must come around”, right? Hoping that he would get his due some day for all the stuff he does to women. It seems, though, that he won’t ever get what is coming to him. He will just continue on, finding victims, and doing his thing, oblivious to all the wreckage in his pathway. He has two very “stable” NS followers who have been with him for a few years now and it is unlikely they will leave him. I quote stable, because I cannot imagine what state of mind they are in and how they justify him. But as Jan or someone above said, they are likely N’s themselves?

So, I’ve resolved to not worry about what comes around and goes around, but instead to get off that merry-go-round and let it continue to revolve as I walk away from it. Let them go around and around and spin far away from me, like a bad dream fading off in the distance.

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203. phil835 - August 31, 2012

Hi Trapped and very well put. I’m glad that realise how dangerous these people are on so many levels?
My mantra about ‘no such thing as safe contact with a Narcissist’ may seem extreme, but I talk from experience.
Whether or not they get what they deserve, or how they came to be Narcissists in the first place, are issues of secondary importance. Protect yourself first and foremost with a pollicy of ‘no contact’ if you are able to do so?
I cut the N out of my life like a cancer! And when you cut out cancer, to stop it returning you sometimes have to cut out all the other tissue that surrounds it. That’s what I chose to do to with my aquaintances who were connected to my N. It was a sacrafice, hopefully in the long term it will prove a good one. Not everyone can, but I operated a scorched earth policy to rid myself of her completely.
These people are Toxic on so many levels, as you have highlighted.
They will poison your life in some way and on some level, whatever your proximity or type of involvement with them is?
I know of no other cantagion as a person more likely to cause harm on a physical, emotional, spritual, psychogical or social level!
It was the last one that got me and caused me most damage.
I did have a brief physical relationship, but what happened to you was a concern for me also.I know just how heedless a Narcisisst is in their pursuit of NS and just I didn’t trust her. Just like teenage drug addict, regardless of consequence they HAVE to get their fix of NS no matter what! Phil

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204. Lesley - August 31, 2012

One day back at work and it seems like the holidays never happened! Envy the blue moon too but we had a beautiful silver sky here last night.
Trapped,it’s so true about the physical effects they have on you. The week before I confronted my ex was awful…he was acting up,I was walking on eggshells…all of you will know what I mean?
I have low blood pressure and slowish pulse too yet I began to get a blinding headache.Something made me take my blood pressure with his machine and it was way up!!This had never happened to me before even in other stressful situations..they are toxic.
I so regret that when the actual discard came from him that I cried because I would have wished myself complete strength at that precise moment. His voice was chillingly cold and he stayed on the telephone for just a minute or two.
I was shocked,angry,humiliated..but part of me was relieved?
It was as if a line had been drawn and my life could now be put back in order.
Re Sam Vankin’s girlfriend…she appeared briefly on a programme he did over here,(in the background making tea…)she spoke briefly about how she identified as both an emotional and sexual masochist. He commented on how they suited one another etc etc.
I remember thinking that the programme should have been about her because at least she may have had a chance of recovery or help.There is an important distinction here between ‘normals’ who identify with being dominant or passive in the bedroom. Normals are not like that 24/7 in every part of their lives. Sam Vankin is sadistically denegrating and humiliating to his girlfriend because he is a Narc. Full stop.
From my experience,I do believe Narcs show themselves clearly in their sexual behaviour.As an analogy,imagine someone who is a concerto pianist and can play a piece of music flawlessly.Technically they are very good(Through practice)…but there is nothing of themselves in it at all. No interpretation or individuality therefore the audience feels no connection.The Narc doesn’t notice the lack of connection, for him sex is about him. You are simply the sum of your body parts.
I think the escape route or lightbulb moment is when you realise what they are. To clarify, I would never berate anyone for being with Narcissist,trying to help a narcissist,attempting to love one,change one etc…BEFORE…they knew what they were dealing with.
When the penny drops, I feel exactly like Phil…scorched earth is best.
Light Shine,
Les

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205. Lesley - August 31, 2012

Just wanted to say Phil,good article on a tour of the Cluster B’s.Thanks…
I meant to post this one again.About their physical/ sexual behaviour.
As follows;

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-narcissus-in-all-us/200810/narcissists-dont-make-love

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206. phil835 - August 31, 2012

Hi Lesley,

I’ve read the article before, it struck a big chord with me first time.I can answer the last hypotetical question it poses from my own experience.
One of the unlikely indicators and something which put me in the correct ball park of identifying Narcissism, was sex. I felt as though my N was emotionally uninvolved, and I noticed a few tendencies towards exhibitionism. It’s a hard to describe feeling, there was something strangely unsatifying for me, I didn’ teel as though she was connectiong with me on an emotional level during sex.
Ironically, she was mad about me sexiually, she had an insatable appetite for having sex with me.Yet what left me feeling unsatisfied was the hard to describe feeling that she wasn’t having sex with me (in an interpersonal way) when I was making love. And this is the cruel part about it, you may be emotionally involved, they are not. My N would often give me a puzzled look after we’d have some amazing physical sex. She’d give me these puzzled and questioning looks as if to say ‘what are those strange emotions in others which they associate with and attach to sex?’ To the Narcissist sex is just sex, it is an experience they indulge themselves in for their own gratification. That’s why they can happily engage in group sex with the same ease and level of emotion (i.e. none) as involved in sex with one other person. The article is correct, they don’t make love at all.
I felt a bit like the inverse of Lesley’s pianist analogy above. My N was taken aback by my physical dexterity and technical skill as a lover. But she NEVER comprehended the emotion behind the notes of music. To her it was a physical and mechanical act.
I stopped the physical side of the relationship when things in the relationship took a bad turn. She had caused conflict in my social life, I wasn’t happy. I wanted her to make reparation and restitution in some way. I needed her to make effort to repair the relationship on a personal level. She wasn’t intereted. Instead she offered a FWB relationship, thinking I would do the typical male thing and cave in to offers of sex. She was wrong, I find it hard to )properly) make love to somebody who makes you feel lousy, used and cheap.
She’ll easilly find other partners though, the ones who she deserves and who care as much about her as she does about anyobody apart from herself. Phil
P.S. In answer to the hypothetical question at the end of Lesley’s link, you won’t get an N to connect on an emotional level through sex. I stopped the sex in order to try and repair the personal relationship. She tried to bargain with a FWB relationship but failed. She was typical Narcissist and assumed that she had more to bargain with than she did. Because in relity sex was far better for her than it was for me. Towards the very end I was hoping she may make effort to repair the relationship on a personal level. I would ask her about her day and take an interest in her life (when we were back to a non physical relationship) then she would reply with sordid texts about sex in the most graphic way, Not only that, her sexual language concentrated on body parts without even connecting them to a sentient person (i,e,me) She had completely ignored all emotional involvement and concern for me. She wanted me pysically and that was all. Phil

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207. trapped - August 31, 2012

Wow! I am on a quick lunch break and I have to comment on Phil’s post. First, I applaud you for your approach, trying to reach a more emotional connection. I am so jaded at the moment that I can’t even imagine a guy doing this if the physical sex is a knockout. You sound like a great person!

I also read Lesley’s link. Both that article and your post really hit a cord with me. More flashbacks (I’ll try not to get too graphic) of very prolonged and steamy sex, often with steely gray eyes that appeared to look off into the distance rather than into mine (red flag!!).

Kisses that were very odd and disconnected, more like a person biting into an ice cream cone than giving a sensual, passionate communication with the lips. In fact, I have never kissed a man who kissed like that before. Very odd and almost animalistic, and actually downright uncomfortable. I am pretty sure an awkward novice teen kisses better than that. In fact, I bet a horse kisses better than that (not that I would know!).

Again, not to get too personal, but during “the act”, he always focused on himself (even looking in a mirror!), with very short, occasional rough attempts to try to please me before resuming whatever it was he was doing for himself. I am trying to keep this clean…basically, it was up to me to find satisfaction, but I had plenty of time to do it since he would prolong things as long as he could, mostly to look like a stud, I am sure, and not al all because he was into “our” moment.

At any rate, immediately after these “sessions” were over, he would literally jump out of bed and completely disconnect…he joked once that “women like to cuddle after sex” as if it were something to distain. It was almost like “OK, that’s done, now I am back into my own thing again,” and he completely shut off. All that charming “into-you” stuff was now a thing of the past. He would check his cell phone for messages, flip on some stupid TV show, or just start to look at his watch and say “what time do you have to get up in the morning.”

Those were the moments when I felt the most lost, the most “duped”. It was like the rug was pulled out from under my feet. I am sure that feeling equals that of an addict once they come down from a very big high.

Writing this stuff, all I can do is look at what I’ve wrote and think “what??? What in the world was I thinking???” It is insane, but how to explain how one gets totally caught up in that whole thing? I have no explanations except that he is a master of deceit. The only other thing I can say is “yuck”.

Back to my hummus, that is, if I don’t have a sick stomach!!

Cheers!

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Teacher in Korea - September 19, 2012

Trapped no more,

I had chills reading this post of yours because I feel like we slept with the same guy. The first time I had sex with my N, I felt like a masturbatory toy to him. There was no foreplay, he just went right to it and it physically hurt. At the time, I chalked it up to nervousness since the first time you sleep with a new person, there’s always a bit of awkwardness from not knowing that person’s body well. I didn’t even realize it then but both times that I was intimate with him, I had my eyes closed from the time it started to the time we finished. Even when I was wincing in pain, he did not care and continue to go on as if I was there solely for the purpose of satisfying his needs. One of his comments to me during the first time was “I can go on all night, baby!” and he sounded so proud of himself, as if he was a stallion in bed. All the while I was in pain and it was clear I was not enjoying it. There were a few quick brief moments where he roughly tried to pleasure me but he quickly went back to continue what he was doing to please himself. His touch was rough and abrasive. I think if I were to compare him to a horny 15 year old, the 15 year old would probably be better at it then the N was.

Writing all of this and recalling this makes me sick to my stomach but it helps to read that this fact really solidifies that he was a classic N through and through.

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Lesley - September 20, 2012

Hi Teacher,
This is one of the worst things to come to terms with..if you’ve been with a somatic narcissist. You are essentially in two different sexual relationships,one where you identify bonding and intimacy during love-making and another where the Narc simply sees you as someone who can fufil his needs. I kept on thinking that my ex would change…that he would start having eye contact and that he would be gentler..but in general you are not another person to them. For a while you become part of their fantasy.That’s all.Personally the Omen III is not my idea of a great time in bed!(LOL)
I laughed when you talked about the horny teenager…yes this is accurate,so accurate. They give kudos to ‘how long they can last’ or how many’times’ they can have sex rather than the quality or intimacy of the love-making.
The really sad thing is whilst they feel that this kind of behaviour heightens their status…they are not teenagers.
They are adults playing with the emotions and sensitivities of others.
I’m finding that my memories of this part of my relationship are lessening.Thank God. Hopefully if you stay away from this man your memories or flashbacks will reduce too.
You have identified a huge red flag though,in my opinion…I think you can spot a somatic Narc by their sexual preferences,sadly this is where they give themselves away?
Les

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208. Lesley - August 31, 2012

Hi Phil,
This was how it played out for me too..exactly and I’m so glad you shared that because it’s always been the huge red flag for me.
I believe they have developed their view of sex as ‘self medication’..it’s a gratifying behaviour for them such as drinking,drug taking,spending money,attention from NS.
For me somatic narcs use sex to distract themselves..the other person becomes a prop to what is essentially masturbation. Over a period of time this was one of the most dehumanising experiences of my life.My mistake was thinking it would change or evolve or develop?
You’re right..it doesn’t.
Early on in the relationship my ex told me that his sexual relationship with his ex wife had been ‘rubbish’.She had revealed this to a marital counsellor..I now believe his wife couldn’t bear the lack of intimacy but at the time I felt sorry for him,When a few months in, I started to realise he was impersonal,technically good(as if he was playing a porn tape in his head)..but constantly wanting this kind of’stylised’ sex… I puzzled how to broach the subject. I tried several times but he simply didn’t understand the problem..Most women will not deliberately hurt the man they love by saying bluntly ‘ It’s not working for me in the bedroom’ nor could I use comparisons to other men. He was very jealous and this would have set him off.
I wondered sometimes if we were watching a romantic film/tv programme together where a couple made love if he would see the difference.. eye contact etc..apparently not?
I now think that he felt entitled to see or use me this way.He would say to me afterwards or text me ‘I love making love to you’ and a voice would be screaming in my head’What we just did is not making love!!!’ There is still a part of me that is very angry about this,as practically he was a well built guy, he was at least 100lb heavier that I am,physically he seemed not to recognise this or want to attend to what could be’an ordeal.’
But I’m viewing it from the perspective of a normal.
When I confronted him finally,I told him what it had actually been like for me throughout .Although specific, I was not rude…this however was a significant part of why I was discarded.
The awful bit,(and I’m reminded of the niece that Trapped mentioned here) is that many women and men may have no comparisons,particularly if from a sheltered background or simply young and a Narc is their first lover! There do seem to be several stories on this blog which follow this line. Horrible for those involved.

Lesley

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209. Donna - September 1, 2012

My heart goes out to Phil, Les, Trapped and others, I can’t even amagine where I would be in my right mind if I had been involved in a physical, loveless, mechanical sexual experience with him. I am hoping that we all can heal and move on and forward from these disorder ppl. My heart still hurts. This is what helps me thru to see the “Blue Moon”. “God grant me the the serenity to accept the things/ppl I cannot change. The courage to change the things I can And the wisdom to know the difference.”

I hope this is a special “Blue Moon” for us All.

Twice in a Blue Moon no less! Here’s a link to one of my favorite astronomers. Jan

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210. Trapped - September 1, 2012

I just walked to a special place with my daughter to watch the moon rise. It was spectacular! It came up over the mountains in Orange County, about half way to the sea from the San Bernardino mountains. Very big and beautiful. There was a chilly wind and some peach-colored hues from the sun setting in the opposite direction. What a moment. I wondered if there was a place somewhere (Malibu?) where one could stand and see both the sun setting and the rising moon, since they happened almost at the same time. That would truly be something to see!

Wow! You’ve painted a beautiful picture (or maybe it was Mother Nature). 🙂 Jan

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Lesley - September 1, 2012

Trapped…we can see this in Scotland throughout the year.The sun and moon often appear in the same sky and the quality of light over the water is remarkable.I live beside the River Tay,in Dundee and will look out a photo for you.
The particular time of day this happens is called’The Gloaming’ here. The time between twilight and dusk and is the subject of songs and photography. I’m sending you a link so you can see the sky over Scotland in the Gloaming.

http://scotlandinthegloaming.blogspot.co.uk/2010_10_01_archive.html

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211. phil835 - September 1, 2012

Hi Trapped, Lesley and Donna.

I think it’s natural to feel used, cheated and deceived by the N’s lack of emotion in a physical reltionship. But if there’s any solace, it’s not that they are capable of feeling strong emotions for a significant other but you weren’t it. They just aren’t capable of connecting these feelings of intense emotion with anyone, apart from themselves.

Like Les says, “My mistake was thinking it would change or evolve or develop?”
It was my mistake too and the mistake of countless others no doubt, that is until you start to grasp how the minds and emotions of an N function.

So in a way there is nothing ‘personal’ about the appalling way in which you were treat and discarded by the N, if it helps?

My N told me that she had never ‘really’ being in love. She must have obtained her concept of ‘love’ and a working knowledge of how it was for others by reading about it in novels perhaps? I can’t think how else she would otherwise know that she hadn’t truly experienced these emotions as others do, unless she could draw on the experiences and emotions of others in literature?

She told me about times she ‘thought’ she was in love, but in retrospect and hindsight she was able to dissmiss the euphoria she felt at the time, as something other than love. No doubt it was the idealisation phase of NS she was refering to from her own eperiences?
And intereestingly, this is a good example of an N coming close to showing introspection and having some into insight into their own minds.

Talking about one of the very first times she thought she was ‘in love’ was with a lecturer, she had idealised him as being ‘all the things in a man I hoped my dad should have been’.
Then when the infatuation or should I say idealisation phase had worn off, post D&D she was able to reflect with dispassionate pragnatism that ‘it wasn’t real love at all’.
And for a woman in her mid 30’s to view each successive relationship in this way, including the closest ones she had ever experienced plus a marriage, it was a rare insight into the mind and emotions of a Narc as close as I could get to them.

The sex for her in our relationship was as good as it could possibly get for her. And at the end of our relationship she lamented in a very cold and pragmatic way, her difficulties faced in finding sex that good in her next partner? I was faulty NS for many reasons, but if she could ‘cherry pick’ and take the physical side of our relationship as it was, plant it in another partner who was better NS, that would be her ideal! 🙂

It was an aberration of circumstances that I was involved with my N and that I should have been feeling intense emotions for her at the time. And as good as the physical side was for her, there were other realms in the experience of intamacy and emotions, which I realised were ‘closed’ to her . I never called her openly on this, and I didn’t see the point, as she was already aware of it herself, however dimly? And to do so would have been like shouting at a blind person and telling them to open their eyes and look at something!

And for somebody with so many previous partners, I can understand how the physical side wasn’t great in those relationships either. If there’s little or no involvement of emotion on both sides, then intimacy isn’t going to progress beyond the physical, so I can only surmise that the physical is probably ‘half hearted and not that great in itself either?
And so for what she had experienced with me physically, she could never grasp the emotional motivation behind somebody putting their heart and soul into love making. She could only measure the experience on a physical level, from within her own isolation.

Whilst she was at least somewhat aware of her deficiences of emotional involvement, her sense of inadequacy (next to others who were capable of intense feelings) were quickly dismissed by her. She would describe herself as ‘pragmatic’ and practical. Reasoning that people who were emotionally involved in sex were the ones full of ‘nonsense’ and taken to magical thinking? So as a an interesting gender reversal here, my N didn’t feel the need to engage in post coital intamcy either! 🙂

I think Jan has a great anecdote about her N. He lost his sense of smell, therefore he was envied in the slums of Calcutta for not having to endure the rancid stench of sewers during the floods. The downside was that he could never smell the sweatness of flowers either. Just like an N, they can’t get hurt emotionally. And because they have no capacity for emotional hurt, they can’t feel the high emotion of real love either.

Another good example I have is using myself. I’m colour blind.
There’s a 1 in Million chance females are colour blind so I know I’ve picked a great example.
Now when people hear you are ‘colour blind’ they automatically think you can’t see colours?
I’m sure people think I see the world in black and white or shades of grey (not the novel) 🙂
It may interest some of you to discover that I can see the full spectrum of colours. More so, I can see the most subtle shades of gradation in each and every colour available.If I was to sit down with one of those paint matching catalogues showing thousands of different shades of colours, I could accurately match (in isolation) one of these colours in the catologue to a paint on a wall.
Now you know how well I can see EVERY individual colour in the entire visual spectrum and correctly identify each one.
Sit me down with the colour blind tests, while you can read the numbers gumping out of the plates as 27, 88 or whatever else. To me there are a collection of dots, coloured red, blue and green. I can’t see the numbers in the dots however hard I try.
Now when people look at me in disbelief. And I can understand their disbelief even more so, because I can see each subtle shade of individual colour in isolation. Put them together to make a number and I see nothing. The look people give me must be something like the look we give a Narcissist who can’t feel emotions for others. We’ve seen them do emotion, why don’t they do what must be easy and consider how others feel? Phil

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212. Lesley - September 1, 2012

This is a remarkable perspective Phil. It’s like you’ve exposed the mind of a female Narcissist…and sadly apart from the obvious gender differences,they are the same,dyed in the wool as the male of the species.
My son and Dad are colour blind…I’m the carrier as it’s passed down the female line, I believe…so I’ve done the dot books(don’t they have a Japanese name?) I was upset at the time until I came to realise my son could still see a whole spectrum…you explain it well.
My ex will never experience’making love’…but he will never feel it’s loss either,he may have a degree of insight into this but is adept,as your girlfriend seems to have been at rationalising this..it’s like taking a glass of water when thirsty for him. It quenches a need.
I also understand your’cherry-picking’ comment. My ex told me on several occasions that ‘He was glad that he had found a physical match…which suited him’.It’s almost as if he was sizing up a golf club or taking a car for a trial run. I know now that this was why he was so possessive of me…it was a real hassle for him to find another’one’ as he put it. Another time,in company I was sitting reading a book in the garden. He was standing with a group of his’friends’ in the doorway to the garden. He said ‘God lads..take a guess at how long her legs are…I know because I’ve measured them!’
This was said in my hearing… I said sarcastically’And I can read too!’
This lack within them does spill over into other arenas. I remember going with him to see the film’The Tree of Life’…it got mixed reviews but I was really moved by it
At the end of the show,several people had tears in their eyes or running down their faces,including myself.
I remember my ex scanning the small cinema we were in with a look of puzzlement on his face…it was as if he had been transferred to Mars?
He turned to me and said jokingly’ Christ do you fancy Sean Penn…that much?’ He needed to bring my emotion down to prurient reasons..to belittle the experience.
You have really worked this through Phil and I am moved to read that yourselves and others have felt this way too and more importantly are recovering.
The crux of the pain still remaining for me is in the unevenness of our shared experience. Whilst I was experiencing an intimate moment in my mind and through my emotions he was simply reacting to his bodily needs.This is my wall,a wall I still cannot get over yet.Knowing that other on Jan’s blog have experienced this helps me recognise that it may just be a matter of time.

Les

If it helps, Les, I know you’re one classy lady, so if you WERE a golf club, you’d be a Calloway! Unfortunately, I don’t believe the N knows any better when it comes to not being “present” emotionally during sex. They’re going through mechanical motions…fulfilling a bodily function or doing what they’ve seen in the movies. It’s all rather sad. Especially if you’re on the receiving end. Jan

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213. Trapped - September 1, 2012

Phil, very well said. It helps quite a bit to think about things in that perspective, but as Lesley said, there is still that raw edge to heal of the divide between what I felt and what the reality was on his side. He was such a superstar actor, believe it or not, which may be impossible for you to tell from what I write here.

I write about the aftereffects, the things that became obvious afterwards. While with him, it was always a different story. It was as though there was no other woman in the world for him. But, as everyone wrote above, whenever he seemed to get to a certain point of intimacy, he would shut off like a machine and withdraw, even doing things which were big repellants.

Being a sensitive person, I would withdraw, too, and logically think “I guess this wasn’t what I thought”, and I’d walk away, forgetting about him….only to get that phone call begging me back.

I, too, once asked him if he had ever been in love. The answer was “no”, or some long-winded response like ‘What is love? Love has many different definitions, depending on what culture you are in.” In essence, a round-about way of not answering the question, smacking of exactly what Phil said, that he had researched the topic, trying to figure out what it was he was supposed to be feeling.

He admitted that he might once have loved his ex-wife (one of them, he has been married twice), but found out when it was too late (she was leaving him). My interpretation of this was that he was losing his NS and felt that loss, attributing it to “love”, when it was only dependence.

An interesting thing I found out about this guy is that he picks women who are significantly older than him. His ex-wife was almost 10 years older than him and had a physical disability (due to a previous accident), his current “girlfriend” is almost 7 years older, I am 2 years older…this isn’t too significant if one is in their 20s, but when one is nearing 50 and his targets are well into their 50s, it seems to smack of preying on someone else.

I hope I am not offending anyone, but I am older, too and I know the pickings are slim for women, at least where I live. I also know that this is a very vulnerable time for us as we face many truths about our lives and our outer beauty and youth. It is almost like adolescence on the other end of the spectrum because at the same time hormones are raging and other major live stressors are happening (teenagers in our lives, empty nest, etc.).

There are very, very few single guys out and about and a lot of lonely women. Thus, this guy is able to “cherry-pick” as he pleases, even amongst the married women. His job involves teaching a sport, so he had plenty of contact all day long and a very loose, open schedule.

It has always been a solid rule in my book that a teacher does not prey upon a student, but these rules are not within his concept of morality. He has slept with many, many students (and mothers of them). i think in a previous post I wrote of one I recently learned of: a mother of one of his students who was married but suffering from alcoholism. He honed right in on her.

At any rate, I am straying from the topic. Phil gave an excellent analogy which helps understand it all. The worst part is that the ex-N warned me when I first met him by blurting out ‘I have never felt love” or something like that. But being the stupid one I was, I thought to myself, “you have never met me” and was sure I would be the one who could show it to him. This is the trap we fall into. I think the next time I hear that line, I will say “Oh, sorry for you,” and remove myself from the situation, quickly.

Instead, for the longest time, I suffered from that complex of “what is it that I am lacking??” The only answer I can come up with now is the brains to have seen the situation for what it was. I just kept going, thinking it was going to change, as Lesley said. I did this because I have never had a situation yet where a relationship didn’t work out unless it was I who didn’t want it to. So I just thought I could make it go my way, even it it took a while.

Live and learn. My face is almost completely healed now. That was an easy recovery compared to my soul.

To the Artist formerly known as Trapped,
This is brilliantly said. I don’t believe Joe had ever been in “love.” But when he idealized women, he was like a giddy teenager, which to some can look/feel like “love?” I did ask him if he’d ever had a real relationship. His response was, “You mean a roommate?” LOL So this is a soon-to-be 46-year-old man who’s never been able to create a meaningful bond with another human.
Haha! I’m an “old girl” as my English Lesley would say. I believe I was ripe for the picking because I was new and it felt nice to have someone basically flirting with me. I noticed that Joe seemed to go out with a lot of women who had disabilities, were new to this country and spoke limited English. They tended to be more vulnerable and ultimately, he could use this as his reason for why the relationship would never work as he ran for the door. Jan

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MillyRad - September 1, 2012

I guess I should admit to it–I dated a textbook narcissist a few years before I met my husband. It was a very short relationship. Maybe about 3 months. He was successfully self-employed, and I’d just graduated from college. We had similar degrees, but he was only about a year older than me and making enough money doing work in his field to support himself. These days, that’s a pretty amazing feat! I’m a quiet, sensitive person, but I was drawn to what I perceived in him to be confidence. As I got to know him better, his words and actions revealed that his “confidence” was derived from his senses of superiority and entitlement. Almost every time I was with him he’d say or do something either hurtful, or seemingly out if touch with reality. Often, both! I didn’t really feel connected to him, but I kept telling myself that maybe I was seeing the behavior of a truly confident and assertive person through my own neurotic eyes and that I was misinterpreting him. Long story short, some mutual friends told me that they were pretty sure he was also seeing someone else. On my next visit to see him, he told me that he was in fact seeing someone else: a very wealthy, married  woman, 20 years his senior. I knew of her, but only as someone who had hired him to do some really high paying jobs for her. He told me that she was going to leave her husband for him and that they were going to move in together in one of her other homes in another city. I was hurt, of course, but mostly shocked that this guy was actually building his life to be like a Lifetime Original movie! I was very lucky that, within a week, he packed up and moved 4 hours away. I haven’t had to deal with him since. 

I guess the point to this story is that this guy’s narcissistic behavior was pretty blatant and I was at least partly aware that I was having actively dismiss my gut feelings about him. My ex friend, though, has quite a bit of BPD thrown into the mix. I think that adds another confusing layer to the onion. He would get very upset and dramatic at the drop of a hat. I thought that, surely, if someone can feel such despair and longing, he must have quite a wide range of very deep emotions–including love. I was wrong. I think he does feel those negative emotions pretty deeply, but only for himself in the form of self-pity and wallowing in victimhood.

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MillyRad - September 1, 2012

The Narcissist I dated was fairly young…and restless (sorry, I couldn’t resist! 🙂 ) I think that my ex friend, being almost 60, has had a lot of time to work on his “normal-act,” or at least to come up with believable excuses for his behavior.

As children, we’re told that “practice makes perfect.”
But as teachers, we’re told that his is not the case.
Practice makes permanent.
Only perfect practice makes perfect.
So many of the behaviors you’re seeing are entrenched behaviors which have become permanent even though over the years, they have not served the N well and have driven caring people away. Jan

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214. Lesley - September 1, 2012

Hi Trapped,
I hope you don’t mind but when I read your last posting I tracked back to get your story(‘The mirror talks,reflections on Narcissism no.33’) I love that Jan numbers the posts.
Firstly kudos for coming so far. Back then you were writing as somebody hypnotised and I could work out the effect this guy had on your marriage and indeed your health.The way you write about the sex then…and now, I can see you’ve woken up. It’s like a different person wrote these post?He was ‘the best’you’d ever had..now you see him clearly?
It’s also possible to see your vulnerability to him over the months…contact keeps on being renewed?Then you come on and regret it..then he appears again? So I ask you to stay on site and pray that you complete your journey wisely.You sound so motivated of late that I am hoping you are?I hope that three weeks no contact goes onto 3 months…then forever.
Here’s the thing. Why call yourself’Trapped?’ Jan’s asked you about this before and I do too.That name tag detracts from your journey,,,it identifies you as someone caught or harnessed…? All you need to do is change your name on the details posting?
His preying on students is disgusting and you are right, not allowed. I’ve taught in higher and further education here and it’s not somewhere anyone goes.It’s not just loss of job it’s the integrity of the learning contract.It’s the dynamics of the relationship.
Re his picking older women.. I think this is a significant point. Anyone who feels ‘a lack’ in themselves will seek out a perceived vulnerable target? The key word is ‘Perceived.’
Your ex may feel he does well within this group because they are worried about ageing etc. Likewise he may do well within a younger group as they are immature,have no life experience…In short, it defies age,it’s about susceptibility of his victims?Narcs seem to know this instinctively.There is a name for this in Psychology it’s called Gerontophilia,people go for older,younger,disabled,extremely overweight,anorexic etc others because they feel may have an advantage over them?
I have to say..speed onto Brit Baggage Reclaim in your statement ‘slim pickings for older women’..you would be challenged by this statement there and I own that I challenge you too.(lol)
My experience is that there are a lot of lonely guys out there and brilliant women. I do not think this is a demographic anomaly.
We allow men to request a type or an age range.
Personally if a man around my age wanted someone younger… he wouldn’t be for me?
My ex was 5 years older than me. I was 44 when I met him…my previous partner was 6 years younger than me…my ex husband was 12 years older than me and looks amazing physically. When you distill it down,age is a number. But we may tell ourselves something else.
Sometimes it’s our own prejudice that we are facing down in the early hours.I am the most realistic person going in terms of looks and ageing but I’m not going to be pigeon holed yet.
I personally love being in my mid forties… I do not see it as a vulnerable time?
Phil is right…they do tell us what they plan. The flags are there. Your ex said ‘He had never felt love’. My ex said’ He always seemed to disappoint women’… He did disappoint and he did not care to change?
You talk about’lacking’..but this is their lack..not ours?

Light Shine,
Les

Speaking of numbers, it’s WordPress that automatically numbers the comments. There’s been so many on this thread that it does help to remember the number. I’d just written on another comment that Joe always seemed to go for women who had a physical disability, a chronic illness, or were new to the country. I was 14 years older than him, but he thought we were the same age. (I chalk this up to staying out of the sun and kick ass ginger attitude.) LOL When he learned that I was indeed older than him, this also became something he used against me. Who knew there was a name for this…Gerontophilia! . I learn so much from my brilliant readers each day. I’m off to google this. Thanks Les! Jan

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MillyRad - September 2, 2012

Weird. When my ex friend was devaluing/discarding me, one of the reasons he told me that we couldn’t spend time together anymore was that he “needed to be spending time with people his own age,” i.e. his new girlfriend and her friends. This absolutely flabbergasted me because the girlfriend and I are only a few years apart in age. My ex friend is about 20 years older than both of us! I thought, surely, my math is wrong or I don’t know how old they are, but I checked later–yep he’s about 20 years older than both his girlfriend AND me.

Maybe this is part of the intense idealizing and, especially, mirroring aspect of the beginning of NPD and BPD relationships. That the PD’d person actually believes that they’re the exact same age as the person they’re mirroring. In my situation it seemed like my ex friend could either fountain-of-youth himself by identifying with being his girlfriend’s age or elevate his girlfriend by gracefully maturing her to his age. Not sure if what I said makes sense, but it seems like a “great” way for a PD’d person to overcome any initial insecurities about age disparity.

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215. Trapped no more! - September 1, 2012

Lesley, how’s the new name? Thanks for your post. I went back and looked at #33, too. Whoa. Yes, I have come a ways. And, yes, this time I am doing it the right way. The biggest and most helpful step, in my mind, was changing my cell phone number and deleting e-mail addresses. Not being able to be contacted is definitely a huge help.

For anyone else on this site who is in my situation, I would whole-heartedly recommend this approach. It hasn’t been as painful as I thought (that I know of) changing my cell number, even though I’ve had that previous number for several years now and everyone had my number.

In fact, it is rather enlightening, I think, to know that only a very few people have my new number. I feel incognito, as I did when I was fully covered while in Pakistan a month ago. It is a nice feeling! I’d recommend it to anyone in this age of people so absorbed in their phones. Now I control who contacts me, instead of being bombarded. In fact, I am so anti-phone now (probably a result of this guy), that I am even considering just keeping my phone as a family-use only-for-emergency phone. This is more in line with my interests anyway (mHealth-using the phone for obstetrical emergencies in rural under-served low-income countries). But truthfully, the N pushed me to the point of hating my phone, for obvious reasons. So maybe I can point to one good thing he did for me (LOL).

Ditto with the e-mail address. I feel much more in control and less ‘stalked’. The very best part is that I feel like I am the one who duped him, for once.

And, wow, the thoughts I had on sex with him were crazy and blinded. Yikes. May I never go that route again! Absolutely yuck.

I am looking out my window at a completely gorgeous day. I am stuck inside waiting for a delivery man (typical window of 8:30 AM to 12:30 PM and now it is almost 11!). At any rate, I’m also stuck writing a bunch of papers that are due early next week, so all is not wasted, though I am itching to pile my daughter in the car and make a run to the coast as I hear there is very high surf going on.

By the way Lesley, thank you for the beautiful link. My sister used to live in Leeds (her husband taught at the university) and when I visited her, I fell in love with the beauty of that area.

Thank you so much for your support. It really helps me to stay strong by checking in here (even though right now it is part of my procrastination on writing my papers!). It is a process. It takes time. But it seems this time I am going make it to the other side.

Love your new name! Sorry, but since it was new to the blog, I had to go on and approve it, so it didn’t post immediately. I can’t help but notice that in the immediate aftermath of our close encounter with a N, we’re focused on all that was “taken” from us…trust, self-esteem, etc. But as we move forward, we can begin to see that as a result, we have also been given some new gifts…Stronger barriers, a renewed sense of ourselves, and hope. 🙂 Jan

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216. Lesley - September 2, 2012

Hi Trapped,
Good choice of name and I’m sure you’ll live up to it.
Glad you liked the link and Yorkshire(Leeds) is indeed a beautiful part of the UK..you can see why so many people were inspired to write by it’s dramatic landscapes. I like Dorset for the same reason,you can match up a town or church to one of Thomas Hardy’s books..and do the same in Yorkshire with Evelyn Waugh or the Brontes? Geeky but me I guess…(LOL)The link I posted was of Scotland..different country but still the North….
MillyRad, I have to admit your ex friend’s behaviour has me confused…he just seems like a really oppositional kind of guy. Like he’d say something perverse just for the hell of it?
I suppose it could be an extreme form of idealisation,not sure?

Les

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217. phil835 - September 2, 2012

Hi All,

So many great posts to comment on I don’t know where to begin?
I think I’ll go off topic and do my real commenting later.
Before I do congrats to ‘Formerly Trapped’ on your knew name! I have rationalised why we needn’t be consumed with bitterness and resentfment after our contact with a Narc, but there is a positive about still being ‘raw’. It it prevents you from letting the Narc back into your lifes in the future. A Narcissit will readilly accept your forgiveness or forgetfullness. And of the two which do you think they prefer? Answer, whichever lets them off the hook the easiest! If they don’t have to acknowlledge their behavour, make reparation or resolve to change in any way whatsoever, you forgiving and forgetting will do fine for them. So please move on in your life. But if remaining raw about the Nrcissist protects you from future harm? So be it!

It’s a small world as we say, and a strange one too.
I’m familiar with all the locations mentioned and have special connections to them. I’m surprised Lesley shares my more unusual interests? I like all 19Century literature and I’m a something of a Bronte enthusiast, it could be my speciaist subject on mastermind! I also have a very Geeky interest in visiting all the locations in these Novels, even the more obscure ones. I recently did Bram Soker’s Whitby which was amazing. All of Howarth and the surrounding ‘Bronte land’ I know intimately. I also know the Anne Bronte locations in Scarborough. Hardy I’m not into as much, but I lived in Dorset for a year and know the Dorset coast quite well. I do love Hardy’s descriptions of Tess, it’s pure infatuation of a female Heroine! I also lived in Perthshire just south of Les. I know Dundee and surrounding areas reasonably well. Stevensen lighthouse and Arbroath are my favourite nearby places. It’s a small world as we say. 🙂
Will make my proper post later. Phil

How fascinating because is was a big fan of the Bronte sisters back when I was only 12! I wrote in one post about a trip to England that I kept envisioning those desolate moors! (Hard to find in Suffolk!) I also love Hardy! Jan

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phil835 - September 2, 2012

Hi Jan,

I haven’t read the other parts of your website, I sent you an e-mail to also pass on to Les. Have some pictures of Bronte land (Howarth parsonage) and some of Whitby. Most of Emily Bronte’s landscape literature was imaginary, but inspired by possible locations. Charlotte and Anne tend to reference the landscape exactly as it is. For example ‘Top Withins’ on the Haworth Moors is a great possible location for Wuthering heights, but the description of the Hoise Emily Bronte places there was possibly inspired by High Sunderland Hall near Halifax. I’ll shut up been a geek and get back to posting very soon! Phil 🙂

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Lesley - September 2, 2012

Hi Phil,
I was telling Jan off blog today about the nuns at my school(My Dad is an atheist,my Mum is an Irish Catholic…and how tough they were but…I did get to read all the Bronte books,Austen,all of Hardy and the nineteenth century poets Keats,Blake,Shelley…so my interest was whetted and I guess has stayed and become a passion. If you think about it’The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is a study of an extreme Cluster B?I’ve been to Howarth but did wonder if there is a Wildfell Hall or a Thrushcross(is that the right name?) Grange
I like John Fowles too,possibly because I think he writes like a Victorian.Love ‘The French Lieutenants Woman’which is set in Lyme Regis…I think?
Yes Tess is a beautiful book but my favourite Hardy is’Far from the Madding Crowd’…
Re Dundee. I was born there but lived and worked in Edinburgh mostly and down South for a wee while. Dundee and Glasgow and Liverpool are where my Mother’s family settled when they crossed from Ireland last century.My father’s strong Atheism meant that I was also given lots of Russian authors to read as well,so Turgenev and Pasternak are favs too,
Pasternak is the true antidote to Narcissistic Abuse in my opinion.He writes about enduring love and the human spirit like noone else.
I shall give Jan a sample Mastermind quiz for you to
complete(LOL) without looking at any books!
Sorry to go off topic a bit folks…
Les

“Far from the Madding Crowd” is one of my favorite movies of all time. I believe it is actually one of the few films that does justice to the book. (Another film I feel that way about it “Slaughterhouse Five.) Jan

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phil835 - September 2, 2012

Hi Les,

I have Irish Catholic and Italian Catholic as part of my heritage. I introduced athiesm (and later agnosticism) as my own antidote to it though!)
Wildfell hall is one location which is almost impossible to locate, but In Anne Bronte’s other novel (Agnes Grey) the locations are easy to identify once you know it’s Scarborough rather than the letter abbreviation she uses.
Many people think Ponden Hall is a possible inspiration for ‘Thrushcroft Grange in Emily’s Wuthering heights. But Emily’s landscape and buildings tend to be ‘inspired’ rather than providing us with accurate descriptions of actual places and buildings.
Some have argued that the house in Wuthering heights and Wildfell hall may have had the same inspiration, its just conjecture though.
The French Lieutenants Woman’is set in Lyme Regis, I haven’t been there yet.
Pasternak is great, he’s more famous as a poet in Russia, his only novel was banned during Soviet times of course. A perfect antidote to Narcissism as you say!
You must read Bulgakov’s Master and Margarita for some underground Soviet era literature with a non-athiest theme, if you haven’t already? ))
Blake I love, I find him highly metaphisical and i don’t always grasp him, but he seems to strike a chord with me nonetheless.
Ask anything you like in your mastermind quiz Les, even questions on the family pets! Ok enough and apologies to all! Phil

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218. Trapped no more! - September 2, 2012

Lesley, I should have clarified: when I went to visit my sister, we drove north to Scotland. It was an incredible trip. Very gorgeous and I wish we had more time to explore. But I recall the travel was a little difficult (my sister in a manual shift, lots of round-abouts, and she doesn’t like to drive!) and it seemed very far. We had fun, though, and all I remember is green, green, green and stunning landscapes. It was a while ago, I think she lived there in the late 80’s.

I also love the Bronte sisters and their writings. I don’t think we have people nowadays who can write like this, unfortunately.

Phil, I am trying to exit from the bitter stage, but as you said, for now, it keeps me focused on my overall goal, which is to forget this guy. That being said, I am not a bitter person by nature nor do I like to walk around feeling negative or sad. I feel like our time here is too short to fixate on bad things.

Yes, here in this blog, I write a lot of negative, but I guess it is my way of releasing those feelings more than anything else. I am convinced, as I said earlier, that if I walked around all day long feeling like I do when I let these thoughts go here in this blog, I would be dead in a few years from some awful thing.

That is why I release it here, and torment you guys with it. But, guess what? You can read these words and feel good. Feel good that you have (or are) recovered and that you are watching another one slowly make her way to victory against a narc.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t mean that the narc isn’t out there still doing his/her thing to some other poor person. But the point is that we are lucky enough to be able to walk away from it and begin anew. The narc cannot. He/she is sentenced to a life of shallowness, lies, and constant seeking. I don’t like to make myself feel good at someone else’s expense but maybe in this case it is a childish way of saying “touche” to my former tormentor.

That being said, I am going to head out in a few for a walk with my daughter at a botanical garden, followed by a tea. I am sure this tea would make you guys laugh as it isn’t likely anything like yours! But it is a gorgeous day and she will soon be off to college and this was her request. I do miss tea as I had it in India and Pakistan and even when I lived in West Africa. Nothing compares to it on a lazy summer afternoon! It just isn’t the same here. It isn’t just the flavor, it is the whole thing. Is this done as much in Scotland?

I hope everyone is having a beautiful day.

Sounds like the Huntington Library and Garden to me! I’ve heard the tea is lovely and very much the real deal (sans accents!) Have fun! Jan

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219. phil835 - September 2, 2012

Hi Trapped,
You’re right about the Tea, Lipton tea is ok but not quite the same. When I lived in the States I’d occasionally by UK brands from the international food aisle in Wallmart. But strangely they tasted different to what they do in UK even though they UK imports. Must be the water? Don’t set Lesley off telling you how good the water is in Scotland though, she’ll never shut up! 😉
I’m more of a coffee drinker persoanlly, but for the benefit of my American neighbours I’d drink ‘tea’ in the afternoon. I didn’t want to shatter those stereotypes you have of us Brits! 🙂
A stick shift and roundabouts are always going to be a problem for Americans on British roads, as is driving on the wrong side of it.
I struggled in the States to understand your 4 way stop junctions, till I got the hang of it.
Phil

Haha! Lesley has already assured me that she enjoys coffee, but balked when I said I like my coffee and tea iced. She says she uses cold tea to water her plants. No one was more excited than me when I first arrived at Heathrow and there was a Cafe Roma (or something to that effect). About those roundabouts. We’ve finally installed one locally, but they’ve got it all wrong and added four stop signs defeating the whole purpose! Jan

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MillyRad - September 2, 2012

I’m from the American “deep” south. From May to September it gets so hot and muggy breathing is like inhaling hot tea. I’ll take a sweet-tea, please! 🙂

I like that that brisk breakfast tea. I googled Sweet Tea as I remember being served this in Canada of all places. This history is really interesting. Jan

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220. Lesley - September 2, 2012

Hi All,
Phil Jan has just passed your pics to me,so I’ll check them out in a minute.Thanks so much for that…it did just occur to me that Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein on the banks of the Tay…forgot about that one..Bulgakov’s my son’s real interest,we do have that book.
Trapped,I think we are all entitled to bitterness at times.. I still get real dark periods where I brood on what happened to me.To me this is part of recovery. Like you, I don’t expect it to happen overnight.We’re getting there.Have you checked out Cassie’s post ‘The Mirror Talks’. I am just about to reply to that…proof that everyone is at a different stage. Step away from the Narc Cassie!!!
I laughed at the stickshift… I can only drive that kind!
I like tea only if it’s peppermint or apple or with a bacon butty.
Other than that I prefer coffee.

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221. trapped - September 3, 2012

I laughed when I read about the stop signs at the round-abouts. We have one round-about near us and no one knows how to deal with it. Most just plow through it without yielding.

Actually, my sister did pretty well with the stick, better than I would have!

I am a coffee person, too, but only first thing in the morning. If it is 4 am and I am just waking up, nothing else will do. And it has to be very strong. But, like Jan, I also love iced coffee in the afternoons on a hot day.

But, I’m a convert on the afternoon tea thing…There is nothing else like a nice hot cup of delicious tea. I’ve had a few unforgettable cups-one Tibetan and one Kashmiri that were the most soothing teas I’ve ever had (and both similar). They ere a little salty, but I can’t describe why they were so nice. Great for a grey and cold afternoon.

Another I had recently in Pakistan was something I’ve never tasted before and was a real mood lifter (even though there was an assassination right outside the window as I drank it). I can’t describe it, but it was in the interior Sindh region and I had it on a day that was 122 degrees, but the hot tea was indescribable and soothing. It had some type of lemony spice in it. Sorry, I can go on and on about teas!

Yes, Jan, it was Huntington Gardens, and the tea I had was excellent: Chinese Black Tea with rose. Very good. Fresh baked scones…but no clotted cream! I was surprised that some people were getting iced tea or coffee because they had a selection of six different teas and the one we had was very lovely. I am not sure why I am so crazy for afternoon tea…sorry for going on and on about it.

Phil, I don’t have too many stereotypes…I’ll go out on a limb and say I lived with a Brit in Africa and she always had to have her tea! Yes, I know, it was just one person and that is what she liked. Big deal, I know.

I would never go there with the stereotype thing because…uh, well, let’s just say that you guys could totally slam me as an American with all kinds of stereotypes!!

I agree, Phil, about the tea imports. I swear they probably send inferior leaves here. I’ve heard this is the case for perfumes from France. I’ve tried to make chai, exactly as my Indian friends have told me, but it isn’t at all the same as I had in India. Water?

No clotted cream (and thus clotted arteries)? We even got clotted cream on the Air New Zealand flight to London. The Huntington is about 7 minutes from my house, but no I don’t live in one of those big mansions. Those kids don’t go to my school. Boy, I’d like to know what was in that “mood lifter” tea. 🙂 Jan

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222. Trapped no more! - September 3, 2012

I was pointing those houses out to my daughter! “Look at THAT one!!’ But it really is such a beautiful area! A little hot today, though!

I don’t think it was clotted cream, I think it was just whipped cream. But, boy, did they ever have some really good cream for the strawberries! I think it had cream cheese in it…

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223. phil835 - September 4, 2012

Hi All,
I’ve been busy of late but I wanted to talk furtter on a point Les raises in reply to Trapped. Here are Les’s comments on post #214

“Re his picking older women.. I think this is a significant point. Anyone who feels ‘a lack’ in themselves will seek out a perceived vulnerable target? The key word is ‘Perceived.’
Your ex may feel he does well within this group because they are worried about ageing etc. Likewise he may do well within a younger group as they are immature,have no life experience…In short, it defies age,it’s about susceptibility of his victims?Narcs seem to know this instinctively.There is a name for this in Psychology it’s called Gerontophilia,people go for older,younger,disabled,extremely overweight,anorexic etc others because they feel may have an advantage over them?”

I noticed this inexplicable trend in my Narcissist! Especially when I enquired about her past partners, or when I considered who she had encouraged to take an interest in her to my knowledge.

lesley’s point is very true. When my Narc was in her mid 20’s, and at the pinnacle of attractiveness and beauty, Not to mention how cultured, educated and very successful she was in her professional life. Her choice of spouse in marraige raised many eyebrows. I can’t comment with specific details without revealing too much. But her choice of husband part served to cast her in the role of ‘savour’ or ‘rescuer’, which formed a means of gaining supply from her wider social circle. And for casusal observers who haven’t grasped the dynamics of Narcissistic Supply or the idealisation phase etc. They would probably pass off such ‘unlikely matches’ as ‘for love’
If ONLY! 🙂

I think Jan covers this somewhere. Her Narc would choose somebody disabled for exampled. And the reason given by the Narc for discard at the end of the relationship? Because they were disabled! 😀

My N had a tendency to go for partners who were not of a particular high intellect! Hence why she was with me perhaps?! 😉 😀 😀 😀 😀
Then at the end of the relationships she would site reasons of low intellect in her partners, as her reason for discarding them.

At first I tied these treds into a possible committment phobia? Or as Les points out the low self esteem of the Narc who probably feels a ‘lack’ within themselves? Then there’s the Narc’s percieved vulnerablility of the victim which makes them easier targets for the Narc to influence power over?

My own addition to the above points (and I think there is some element of all the above going in the reasons why a Narc chooses a victim they will have advantage over (or assumes they will have advantage over)

A relationship with a Narc is going to be highly asymmetrical. The exploitive nature of any close encounter with a Narc, is never going to be between two evenly matched equals building a partnership based on give and take.

It’s about the Narcissists power, the Narcissists sense of entitlement and how grateful you must be to share the same space as them?
Dependancy and a submissive nature in a victim are a must. Any challenge to the Narcissist’s terms of relationship or a threat to the balance of power, will cause them to look elsewhere and discard faulty supply. Phil

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Lesley - September 5, 2012

Hi Phil,
I think the Narc craves these asymmetrical relationships for two reasons and the reasons are highly conflicting. It’s because the Narcissists sense of self esteem is also highly conflicted and even polarised between shows of grandiose and entitled behaviour and crippling self doubt.
A perceived unequal relationship,covers both bases.
The Narc sees himself/herself as being able to ‘pick and choose’,as stooping to others- hence why they may hone in on someone who is vulnerable?Alongside this they fear abandonment more than anything and want their partner to be dependent on them,hence they pick out someone,who at that particular time may be low or going through a difficult time.
My ex’s previous girlfriend had a chronic illness which although not life threatening meant that she occasionally spent time in hospital.Other than that she was an attractive high flyer…His excuse for leaving was ‘Her selfish preoccupation with her health!’
Your excuse theory works Phil!
This gave him in his eyes legitimate reason for discarding her.
I found out about his infidelities and confronted which is why I was discarded but…
A few months before meeting my Narc I had been in a serious car accident. I had physically recovered but was wary of driving on country roads. I had changed jobs to cut travel down…
My ex was initially very understanding of this,I would drive about the city no problem but travel by train to his house and stay there half the week. In short, I was far less independent during this time than I normally had been or am. He liked this…he had control over my time and travel,he felt secure knowing where I was…again there was slight asymmetry.
In this,he had’The Balance of Power’
Just wondering what you said in earlier posts about your ex having an Abfab friend…who was joined at her hip. It may have been the case that this friend supported your ex in her ‘reasons’ for discarding. In my experience they tend to keep one or two folk around who back them to the hilt.
Light Shine,
Les

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phil835 - September 5, 2012

Hi Lesley,

Your insight is spot on. There’s a crippling self doubt and low sense of self worth which is at the very heart of this emotionally crippled child. The Narcissist is arrested in development at the age of 6 Yrs old (emotionaly and moraly)!
The Narcissist is hiding and shielding this inner child from themselves and the world at large. Their grandiose false self is a deception on two levels, to themselves and others. And because the inner child is kept shielded from themselves and others, it never grows or delevops emotionaly.
Their false self is the only acceptable interface they have with the world.
But for all their show and attempted deception, the 6yr old emotional cripple is very much at the heart of this person.

However much they embellesh and massage their false self, their inner child remains feeling worthless, because it isn’t directly connected with how they interface with the world.

It’s very much like somebody in a spiderman or batman costume. A costume which covers their whole body and face, completely obscuring the true identity of who is underneath the costume. And because the world has given its complete adulation to the person wearing the full costume. Taking off the mask only reveals a stranger who isn’t perceived as the person who won the adulation and glory of the audience. Phil

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224. trapped no more! - September 5, 2012

For some reason today I was thinking of a comment the exN said to me. I was having a conversation with him about “Players”. He was being coy and pretending that he was only describing a player, that he was not one. He said on average, the “player” has at least 2-4 women going at a time. I asked what if the woman finds out she was being “played”. He said, with utmost coldness and seriousness “well, life lesson learned for her”

It was a chilling moment because I knew he was speaking for himself. Opportunist. Criminal. Stealing from people by using fake charms to win them over. We sell ourselves so that we can get a job to eat. We sell ourselves to make friends. But by and large what we sell is truthful and real. The N, on the other hand, has no shame selling fake goods in order to steal and crush another soul.

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Lesley - September 5, 2012

Hi Trapped,
Interesting.These numbers would tally with my ex. He always had main supply…his ex wife or longer term girlfriend eg.myself would have been in that role then he had at least one or two’fallback girls’ who were pulled up from the substitute bench at short notice and used infrequently.Even if he had married me(shudder),these women would have remained on the bench.
On top of that he was always scanning the horizon for more supply.So spot on with the two to four..I believe there were long periods of time when he wasn’t unfaithful to me,it was just important that he knew the substitutes were there??
Les

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trapped no more! - September 5, 2012

Lesley, this is horrible to say, but I wouldn’t be so sure about the “long periods of time” he was faithful. I know for a fact that this ex-N would be telling his “main supply” he was monogamous, and probably even got emotional and cried about it, but the second he left her place, he was on the phone lining up NS.

Maybe this exN is more somatic than most, but I think from the readings I’ve done, he is pretty typical. He literally would beg to get her back after she discovered his infidelity, but on the very same day would go out and have sex with someone else. Not kidding at all about this.

I could never figure out what the dependence was on the “girlfriend”, but only knew that he was very dependent on her and would be crushed if she left him, which she never has (she obviously has a co-dependency). I used to think it was love, but it doesn’t meet my criteria of love. if a person loves someone, they would be honest and truthful and try to treat them right.

I’m not so sure about the secondary supply thing either. He once told me that “they are all the same’ in his book. He said he just had a routine where he saw the “main one” on those golden nights (Sat) when most couples are together. Other than that, “they are all the same”, he didn’t favor one over the other.He once told me he has sex every day of the week, and that it isn’t always with the ‘girlfriend’. I can attest that he was sleeping behind her back at least twice a week, on a regular basis, despite what he told her, and she is completely unaware because the hours he did this were times when no one would ever suspect. And now, I am sure, in retrospect, that he had at least one other who he regularly had sex with, too.

I honestly believe he had no connection with any of them, even the main “girlfriend”. I don’t think he is capable of any real feelings, other than what he wants for himself.

He had routine nights for each one, apparently, which is why I heard from him on certain days, and occasional other days when one of the other NS were not available. Maybe this guy is sicker than the average N? But it sounds like he is par for the course for a somatic N.

I’m not saying this to make myself feel better about being a “secondary”, either. I honestly think that these people have no capability to feel much of anything at all, other than what they want, and that there isn’t a “secondary”. There just is NS. For this guy, sex is what made him feel like he is something and he spends all this time lining it up. If he isn’t doing that, he is at the gym trying to make his body better (and looking in the mirror, no doubt, while he does it). And in the very short hours in between his search for NS, he works. But even during his “work” I am sure he is getting a form of NS since most of his clients are housewives who adore him.

It is a sick circle and I am happy to be out of it. Going on four weeks now without any contact. He has stopped calling my office and I know he has stopped frequenting the areas I used to run/walk. He even stopped going to the gym in the wee hours of the mornings (where he used to pass me as I ran on his way). These are all good signs, but I know that he could resurface at any time, so I am still on my toes.

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225. Chris - September 5, 2012

My thoughts echo Donna’s. My heart goes out to those that are healing from romantic involvements with narcs. As bad as it is to come to the realization that a person who we thought was a friend is a narc, the emotional etc. intimacy involved for those who have been involved romantically is likely more devastating.

Stay strong, all of you, and a special prayer for snlgant who is still living with her narc. Keep your eyes on the light at the end of the tunnel!

Also wanted to comment on the posts that referred to the “hey mommy look at me/what I made/did!” ridiculous display by the narcs…this fits our narc to a tee as well! I never understood this part of his behavior from a grown man, but I do now. Pathetic and sad.

Well, we are getting closer to having to address our issue. I would like to give details but as I said before on the off chance the narc or his wife or someone who knows the situation could read this, I’ll refrain from details..at least for now. Don’t need any extra stress in our lives.

Should be very interesting to see if there will be a rage reaction, a poor poor pitiful me reaction or no visible reaction…or??

P.s. Congrats on the name change trapped no more! 🙂

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phil835 - September 5, 2012

Hi Chris, sad and pathetic yes. But also hideously repulsive and insidious too! I don’t need to remind myself of the damage the Narc did to my life, by her heedless pursuit of NS and Narcissistic game playing. I can only warn others. that there is no safe contact with these people. If you expect remorse, recognition, reparation, restitution. You’ll wait a long time! As Jan says, once you stop expecting these emotional black holes to ‘become human’ then you can move on with your life. What you expected of a Narc is probably what you expect from any decent human being? Forget it! If I can put an umbrella over all the people who post here, it’s not that we are normal. We all have a sense of fairness and expect others to treat us as we would treat them. I can tell this from the overall ‘mood’ of the posts, people here are generally decent and have consideration for others. This is the real ‘shock’ in being close to a Narcissist, It’s that sense of disbelief that somebody is capable of so much self centred abuse of others? They act with inpunity and without remorse!

Trapped, I totally get your Narc going to the gym to work on his body. My N would go to boot camp. I felt like saying ‘IIt’s your f***ing soul that needs taking to boot camp and working on!:

And at the conclusion of their life, that’s all they’ll have lleft! A sad worn out carcass without a soul. They are incapable of genuine love and have long since alienated anyone who may have attempted to connect with them in a real realtionship. It is an impossible task to build mutual trust, respect and loyalty with a Narc. But in this sense, they eventually find themselves surrounded by the people they deserve!

If you have any sense of pride, dignity, self respect and humanity, Stay away from these people. They are the poison of and erosion of the soul. Phil

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226. Donna - September 5, 2012

Well it happened he sent me an email. I figured that I would hear from him one day. I don’t plan to reply in any way, shape or form. He indicated that I destroyed our friendship and that I was responsible for him staying away from our mutual classmate. And that my behavior has caused him to stay away from socializing with mutual classmates and friends where I might be there and it wasn’t fair to him. Of course, he didn’t mention any of the things he did, or didn’t do or said to me. No mention of what I did or an apology, etc, because I did for him what was in my heart. He lost a friend that cared about him and his best interest. Oh, and now I am an acquaintance vs being a “Friend for Life”.

This is my confirmation that he is what he is. Now he knows how to use his laptop computer. LOL!!!

I will never stop going to our mutual friend events or invites, if he shows up so be it because I am a “Big Girl” !!!

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227. Chris - September 5, 2012

Yes Donna, don’t you see? It’s your fault the poor narc has had to stay away from mutual friends and classmates!

Oh brother!

If you are the reason he’s staying away, they should throw an enormous party of gratitude in your honor!

As Phil says, it’s shocking to discover there are people that think this way; they truly believe that they can do no wrong, and that others are always to blame for any discomfort they may experience and yes, that they abuse us to such a degree. Their warped perspective is beyond what we can fathom…..and I’m grateful that we can’t truly grAsp this thinking or we would be like them. We are grateful to know what this guy is (thank you Jan and everyone here!) and that we don’t have to grieve the loss of the relationship.

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trapped no more! - September 5, 2012

And to add to what Chris said, trust me, he doesn’t grieve the loss of the relationship. He grieves for himself only, if he grieves at all. A few famous quotes from my ex-N:

When I called him out on his awful behavior in an e-mail, I got a text telling me that he won’t read any more of my e-mails because they make him feel badly. If I have problems, please don’t “tap it out on me”

Another quote when his ‘girlfriend” found out about me “I feel sorry for myself” he said. No mention about the women who he had put into this position by being a lying selfish something-er-other (if you go back to my first posts, you will see I did not find out about the “girlfriend” until he had already hooked me, line and sinker, and then, against my better judgement, I became “the other woman”, who, in retrospect, was really one of many “other women”). Now, I fully know how it feels to be “the other woman”, though really, I don’t because I was in a relationship with a narcissist. In either case, I will never, ever venture down that road again. Ever. Period.

“It takes me ten minutes to get over a woman”

“I’ve had thousands of women. THOUSANDS.”

“I need my “N” time” (in response to why he did not respond to a text or a phone call) Insert his name where N is. Another words, he was with someone else most likely, because N’s are never alone. They always have to have someone either with them physically or be on the phone with them or texting them. To be alone means they have to face themselves, and they hate who they are. This is why the phone is constantly going when you are with them. It is not good enough to be with you, they must get it from all angles. This is the reason I hate my cell phone.

“You are a drama queen”, when asked a few normal questions about what most people would want to know if they were in a relationship with a person (“why didn’t you return my calls for three days?”)

“I don’t like drama in my life” (even though he strings along three or more women at once).

“When something becomes negative in my life, I tend to move away from it” (another words, you are not allowed to ask any questions about what is going on between you, or this is perceived as negative)

“You aren’t scoring any points with that attitude, it pushes me away” Ditto as above.

“I don’t have to answer that. That is private” (in response to “how do you feel about…?”)

The quotes go on and on. Ugh. How can anyone be like that? I just don’t get it. I have been around this world and have seen some pretty ugly scenes. Was in Haiti just after the earthquake. It was horrible. I’ve seen some horrible things that can happen to a person, and I don’t want to belittle any of that because it certainly is something that could make anyone shudder and want to escape.

But, to see a person treat others with such blatant disrespect and selfishness in this society just blows me away. It is beyond my comprehension, it truly is.

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228. Lesley - September 6, 2012

Hi there,
Trapped,you don’t have to worry about saying anything’horrible’..I know exactly how I was regarded,it wasn’t higher than his other women,I was simply categorised differently..one of the lucky bits(if you can call this lucky),was that by the time I confronted him…I had concrete,irrefutable proof.I knew about his mistress,another woman had contacted him,the ex wife of one of his’group’ of male friends gave me much information and there was also written proof.
When I say there were periods of time when he was faithful. I possibly mean a couple of months…no more? I stayed with my ex from Friday evening through to Tuesday morning each week…this left him three evenings a week?
The discard was total and I wore that.I left much clothes,books,mobile phone,laptop,kindle,perfume…car stuff,storage stuff,suitcases,
digital camera,bike,jewelry,paintings,euros,dollars,sports equipment, work-stuff etc etc at his house.
By far the worse thing was giving up jewelry,books and pics that I’d had for years.He wouldn’t give me even an SD card back.It was as if I lost my past. I haven’t been able to replace all stuff overnight so am on my Mum’s borrowed laptop which I share with my son..as just had crash of spare one!(Noone wants to share PC with 22 year old??)
During the relationship when I had been more important as supply he was very quick at paying back money he owed me for trips etc.
When the discard happened,he did not see the need to do this,hence I have received about a third of money owed.He was a wealthy man.
I have never pursued this nor my things…because to do so would mean contact again?My peace is worth more….
One difference between me and the temporary conquests was that he viewed them as somehow ‘unsavoury or unclean’ and spoke about them to his male friends.He always used strict’protection’ during his temp encounters and did not kiss them’because he didn’t know where they had been?’Ironically, he told one friend that he was always very careful as he didn’t want to give Lesley anything!!!!!!
I of course checked this out at the end of the relationship and was happily healthy…on that score.
He was a complex clever man so his categorising of NS was complex too…but ultimately for his pleasure and free use.Actually it was honed to his whim of the moment. Like you might choose a white wine spritzer over a glass of Merlot. Entitlement…..?
In case you think that I was treated as ‘a Victorian Wife’ by him,no, he was as addicted to having sex with me as much he was with anyone,maybe even more? He would be waiting for me when I got off the train and all I can say is that foreplay must have been a golf term for him!!!(LOL),I used to think can I just get my coat off…flattering at first but not sure this works for most women??Once,being somewhat tired of having the top of my head banged against the headboard and fearing brain injury…I asked him to’Slow down’…He replied that’Many women liked to take a punishing’..Thankfully, I was not one of these women!
He would gravitate to other conquests if I displeased him or he didn’t have me around?We were all objects but just fufilled different functions?Big Sigh..

Donna/it’s awful that you got an e mail,just discard it and get on with having a happy life.You see what he is now..which can only be a freedom,given how far you’ve come.
Wanted to say Chris?that I wish you well if you do confront.Not sure what happens when both parties are men but I suspect the same…he will deny or it will be as if you had said nothing to him. They have blank expressions down to a tee! Keep us posted…

Back to work,
Stay Strong,

Lesley

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229. phil835 - September 6, 2012

Hi All,

Yes the Narc needs constant affirmation. Drama is what they thrive on and they have to feel themselves at the centre of it. Mobile phones and texts are in constantly use wherever they are. I’m sure less tolerant people would find it incredibly rude and distracting, When I lost patience and discerned very little of this communication to be of an essential or pressing nature, I started to get an angle on how pathetic and empty her life was. Nonetheless they love to create the illusion that somehow the time or hearted attention they give you is somehow your priviledge, and how unlucky circumstances prevented them giving you their full or undivided attention? Boo hoo! The real truth is this though, the individed and full attention of a Narc isn’t worth having. They are missing something and they are never engaging enough to satisfy anyone by their company alone. It’s probably a fair assessment of themselves, A Narc avoids being in their own company because they can’t stand it, why would anyone want to be in the Narc’s company alone either? 😀 She had a need to convince herself and others that she was so incredibly busy, popular, and in demand by oh so many people. I called her on it at the end, highlighting that she was a heedless attention seeker, pittiful, patheic and irrelevant!
les I can’t remember who questioned your N’s fidelty? I would question it also, at least in the sense that the worst betrayals go beyond the physical. If a Narc has being faithful, then the opportunity for unfaithfulness didn’t present itself, or there may have been negative consequences for doing so? A Narc can walk the path of righteousness in my opinion. Provided the path of righteousness has a 10,000V electrified fence on either side to prevent them straying! Phil

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phil835 - September 6, 2012

As a quick accretion to my above. To get inside the mind of a Narc you have to think like a criminal. Remember they have the emotional and moral maturity of a 6yr old. A ‘good’ 6 yr old hasn’t internalised morals and doesn’t have the conscience of older children. Back to the cookie jar analogy. If a well behaved 6 year old doesn’t steal cookies from the jar, it is only because:
A: They might get caught.
B. They will get punnished.
Take away A or B from the 6 year old and they will steal cookies.

A 7 yr old who is more advanced than a Narcissist in their emotional and moral maturity, knows that ‘stealing’ is wrong and has internalised values. Their conscience prevents them stealing without considering A or B as the only inhibitors to doing so.

I want to tie these ideas to my earlier posts on cowardice. There are many functioning Narcs who remain inside the law at least, but their minds are still nonetheless criminal. I think that it is the consequencies of A or B which keeps them on the straight and narrow. They are fearful of getting caught or punnished. Give them an opportunity without consequence and watch their true natures reveal itself! Phil

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230. Trapped no more! - September 6, 2012

Phil, you make me laugh!! I love your last sentence!! So true! And what you say about cell phones is also spot on. I remember how this exN once got water on his phone. You would have thought his only born child had fallen into a pond. He freaked out like I had never seen him before, coddling that phone as if his life were in the balance. By this time, I was getting wise to it all and I only sat on his couch watching the whole drama play out with a smirk on my face. He said “You don’t understand!!! My whole life is in this phone!!”

I said nothing. Nope. I don’t understand. My profession involves really saving lives for real.

And how he was on that stupid phone every second. Such an important and busy guy!!

Lesley, I won’t comment now because I’ve got to get out of here, but I wish I could do something. If I lived there, I would show up at his door and do something awful. Ugh. What a jerk. The exN I know would lose all his things because they are all at his girlfriend’s house. How I would love to see that happen! She won’t be privy to the information you got, however, since this N does not have a single male friend (red flag!). She has been contacted by some of his other women who want him for themselves, but she has chosen to ignore this information and instead, believe whatever he tells her.

The exN I was with never used protection. He was too selfish. I told you in one post quite a while ago how I did end up with a few things and how he wanted to hide it from his girlfriend by having me get him the medicines so that he could mix it into a smoothie for her and give it to her without her knowing. Of course I did not do this.

On this pleasant note, I am heading out to take a run in the silent, cool morning!

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231. phil835 - September 6, 2012

Hi Les/Trapped.
Just wanted to let Les know I’m happy to retrieve your posessions if that’s what you wanted? I’m in the south of England now but I have occasionally travelled as far North as the Highlands of Scotland through work. (And you’ve seen my alter ego in the e-mails) 😉 Joking!
I think Les is something like me though Trapped, I wrote off parts of my life to avoid future contact with the Narc. Some painful sacrafices and losses resulted, but the peace of mind in knowing that I would have no further contact with the Narc made those losses more bearable.
If you are ‘no contact’ the last thing you want to do is open up a dialogue with the Narc, not offering them any means of direct communication or through a third party either.
One thing I now resent (and perhaps she was mindful in thinking about the future in this respect) is that wherever possible she attempted to expand her social mileu to include people connected with me. Yet if she was meeting one of her 386 insufferable friends, I wouldn’t be offered an introduction on the premise that I would be ‘bored’ by the conversation. That was very true! 🙂 But by the same token, she should have been equally ‘bored’ and have nothing in common with the people connected to me also?
It’s as though she wanted to create ‘options’ should she ever want to open (or attempt to open) future dialogue through mutual aquaintances. I operated my famous scorched earth policy on mutual aquaintances to prevent this. She even had the audacity to indicate that we might have a relationship in different circumstances in the future! No doubt meaning she would attempt to pick up at the end of her next f**k up, by which time I would hopefully have either forgiven or forgotten about her previous behavour? They defy words they really do!
Anyway, if you want me to help retrieve your stuff Les? Just write a letter authorising me to collect it, and I will do my best without compromising ANY information. I know how much I would hate my Narc to even have a modicum of information relating to me! Phil

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232. Lesley - September 6, 2012

Aw Thanks Trapped,
In the end it’s only’material things’..they cannot harness someone’s spirit.Cliched but true.I’ve been teaching a subject called’The Family in Modern society’ this morning and it’s amazing how many people lose everything or indeed choose to walk away because of abuse,violence.. or friendly neighbourhood Narc.My student’s sadly experience this too.
The pics are a sting because I took ones of Robert Graves house in Western Majorca..my Gran loved the book I Claudius but never had a chance to travel there.I told my ex at the time that I was doing it for my Gran…lost on him or perhaps his revenge?They use what you share like fodder.. I also took some panoramic views of Gaudi stuff. I like architecture.He has apparently made ‘A Collage’ of these.
Again…he uses what he can.
As Phil says if the opportunity presents itself. One factor that puts my ex well up in the rogue’s gallery of cluster B’s is the definite thrill he got at this deception. I firmly believe that he enjoyed the deceit as much,if not more so than the sex.It was affirmation of his power over someone else. Without being graphic and I personally cannot go there..this was his’thing’.
To illustrate this an example,sorry if I can’t transform immediately into metric heights. My ex was 5ft 10 tall and complained that his wife had been’far too tall for him’. He did not feel like’hugging her’…she was 5ft 9. His ex girlfriend was 5ft 7…noticing a pattern? I am a smidgeon under 5ft 6…when he trawled for Narc supply online he wanted women no bigger than 5ft 4 or 5…he needed a degree of physical dominance and scarily that need was increasing. It blows normal interaction out of the ball park.But he feels it’s ok to be so specific…he’s entitled????
One good and positive thing is how I am returning to myself ..he liked women to be well groomed,full make up on(go figure,he then liked to tear it down…).
I have barely worn make up since I left him,like I said I can tie my hair back…I don’t do this to neglect myself but because it reaffirms myself of me.
I could not believe it when you said he’d given you a disease(s) and the bit about the smoothie…wouldn’t this be illegal?
I don’t feel revengeful because this would tie me to him but I do have all sorts of theories on their friendships. My ex had no’New’ friends…his mates were all long term carefully honed mirrors!
However, as Jan says.. I owe,I owe so it’s off to work I go!

Les

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233. Lesley - September 6, 2012

Phil,
Just noticed your reply.What a lovely thing to say…I have a pic in my mind now of a kalashnikov and my ex’s face which I admit is a tad pleasing(LOL)!Never mind the flak jacket!
However,will take the higher road…the stuff has connotations which I don’t like so let him have it. I appreciate the kindness very much…
Also, I sent you reply to e mail last night…did you get it?
It may have gone into your spam,having so much bother with PC at moment.
Les

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234. phil835 - September 6, 2012

Hi Les, Trapped.

Before I entered into a physical relationship with my Narc, we both decided on her suggestion that we should have health checks. I thought this was a mature and sensible thing to do, a joint decision by two adults who were about to enter into a physical relationship. I expressed something of my distaste at the actual physical ‘experience’ of being tested for these diseases. Whilst the sensibility and wisdom of going through these test I was fully in favour of.
I found it at odds with my own take, that my Narc viewed these tests as something like a 6 monthly checkup at the dentist!
She couldn’t comprehend my feeling of distaste at the actual tests themselves or the implications behind them, rationalising that as a ‘woman’ it’s second nature to undergo such intrusive examinations ‘all the time’! 🙂
Maybe?
I find it deeply ironic, that I wasn’t poisoned with some physical disease by my N (the physical relationship was very brief) because I ended it. The reason I ended it was that she poisoned my life through her ‘playing’ on a social level.
One way or another they will poison you, physically or otherwise! Phil

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235. phil835 - September 6, 2012

Hi Les,
Just noticed your reply and checked my e-mails. 🙂 Phil

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236. trapped no more! - September 6, 2012

Phil, as a healthcare worker, I can tell you that it ISN’T second nature, (as you likely know!!) for a woman to get these tests as regularly as they go to the dentist. There are some who suspect their mate/spouse are playing around and they seek the tests. But as a matter of principle women hate to go to their gyn almost as much as the dentist. In addition, in the US, there are guidelines about who gets tested and when (for example, in the case of chlamydia: screen all less than age 25 , if they are pregnant, or if they are at high risk, i.e.,have multiple partners)

Lesley, YES, it would be totally illegal to treat someone like that without their knowledge and I informed him of this. He did not care. I even discussed the risks involved (including death if she had a severe allergic reaction, which he probably wouldn’t even recognize until it was too late). He had no concerns. It wasn’t his problem. He was more worried about her finding out he was sleeping around than killing her. Important things, you know.

As a postscript, I ended up getting the information to her in a round about way (through a friend who is a nurse) and believe it or not, she actually talked him into going to a STD clinic so they both could get checked. Of course, he came back, gloating to me that both their tests were negative. I was shocked at this because there was absolutely no other place I would or could have gotten these infections. I can only imagine what he told her about how this all came about…but, whatever he said, she believed.

I did a literature search and found at least three articles (I can send links if anyone wants) that were on studies of women who, for one reason or another, either were not treated or had partners who were not and were re-infected. The infections cleared spontaneously for Chlamydia as much as 50 percent of the time. I was pretty upset because, well, as any of you could guess, it just let Mr. N gloat. I bet he was sweating bullets, though, in the clinic.

Who would ever think? I mean, who would ever not treat a patient who has a disease that can cause infertility, progress into a severe pelvic infection, and even cause blindness (was leading cause of blindness in the world)? It isn’t something to just brush off. But, for a dyed-in-the-wool N, it is just a bother, a nuisance, something that gets in the way of his day.

Oh yes, one more thing. Phil mentioned something about his N being careful about who she slept with. This guy was no different. I would ask him to use protection, and he would refuse. He said, rather proudly, that he was “discerning” and chose his women carefully. Yes. I am sure he is. It is very nice how you can just look at a person and tell they are “clean”. Just tell that to the millions of people who have HIV.

But the N has special powers that we do not. He/she has that teflon that we all read about in the Reagan years. Nothing sticks. They can do whatever they want, to whomever they want, and just walk away scott free. They can lie, steal, cheat. Anything is game.

Lesley, funny that you mentioned heights. My N is 6’6″ and he often would talk about how his “girlfriend” was a good fit for him since she is 6’1″ or something like that. I am a shorty, only 5’8″. Yes, during his D&D times, he would actually tell me these sorts of things, in addition to what body parts she had that he liked, describing them in gross detail. I can only imagine her horror to know not only was he with another woman, but describing her very personal features to her, as if he were describing a horse.

If he were to do that today to me, I would show him which body part on himself that he didn’t like, after I kicked it. It just goes to show you how he objectfied her. And whatever objectification he did of her, he likely did a thousand times worse to me, no doubt.

OK, it is lunch and my co-workers just called me to have halo-halo for dessert!

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237. Donna - September 6, 2012

Ok, I did it, I went to his house, because I wanted to see the “Nothingness” in his eyes. First, he yelled out his second floor bathroom window and then came to the back door and opened it, not letting me in. There was “Nothingness” in his eyes, which I did expect, I did let him know that “Hate doesn’t live in my Heart”. He said that he had company lol at 1:00PM and he would call Me. I told him it was not necessary.

So I am at peace ,yes my friends it is all over for me!!!

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238. Lesley - September 6, 2012

Hey Trapped/Phil,
Yes that was my first thought when I read Phil’s post…only someone who was a sex worker or very high risk would have these tests so regularly.Re pregnancy my ex had a vasectomy years
before so given his false stories about being ‘highly monogamous’ I
wouldn’t have felt at risk at all. Indeed I didn’t feel as if I was until the ‘News’ broke.Perhaps that is also why I was discarded, I would not have slept with him knowing he was or had been unfaithful.So my use had indeed ended.
What strikes me as positively chilling about Phil’s example is the matter of fact,perfunctory way she mentioned this…as if she was going for a cycle ride and needed to get the brakes checked!!!I’m so sorry Phil but it sounds as if she was asking you to go in for a service?
It matches the functional way Narcs see sex…as a way to self pleasure rather than the emotional tie to another.
I’m sorry that you had to hear him going over the’parts’ of other women he liked.That must have been horrifying…but I get the bit that it is as if they are ticking a checklist eg.’hmm feet ok,hair colour suits me…now what size of breasts will I go for this time?’
Your individuality is removed.
I think I’ve worked out the height thing with regard to my ex..apart from his need to feel’dominant’…he saw women as legs,his favourite body part?He therefore wanted to be taller than someone wearing heels.?Now plenty of normal guys may have this as a preference too but not to the exclusion of someone’s personality/character…?
It occurs to me that within their narcissistic harems they are almost like collectors…going after a model or type they haven’t had before…eurrrgh!!!

Les.

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239. phil835 - September 6, 2012

HI Trapped, I want to quickly clarify my post. I made reference to the respective visits to the STD clinic made by my N and I, prior to our sexual activities. It was the sensible and mature thing to do, for two people about to embark on a physical relationship. We both agreed on this and I was as in favour of it as she was.
I described my physical (and psychological) experience of the tests as being very rather unpleasant (albeit necessary) experience.
My N couldn’t understand the distaste I had expressed to her when describing the experience.
She highlighted that it was probaly a ‘male’ thing that I should react with the degree of disdain I did, to the intrusive nature of these tests.
Sort of like manflu if you like? 😉
And you have to consider that when my N spoke of herself, she did so on behalf of all women! 😀
The dentest wasn’t a good example. I should have hairdresser! She could breeze in and out of an STD clinic as if having a 30 minute appointment with her favourite hair stylist! She couldn’t comprehend my perception of it being an upleasant experience. Phil

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240. phil835 - September 6, 2012

Hi Donna/Les,

Just picking up your last posts.
Donna be careful you don’t give him supply by visiting him! There have been times I would have liked to call my N her on her behavour, make her acknowledge the consequencies of her actions. confront her with some truth. In the end it’s all futile though. You might make yourself feel better, but you won’t change the Narcissist or even if you (think) you’ve given them food for thought? The truth is that negative attention and feedback is all turned into a form of ‘supply’ by the Narc, it affirms their existence and makes them feel important.

Les I think you summed what the point I was making in your anaology about the cycle ride!
I’m not sure of the frequency of the visits of my N to the clinic. But certainly at the end of and start of a new relationship at the very least. That is assuming no extra mid relationship visits either?
I know that she has had previous partners of a low moral fibre,where this has been the case for her. I hope she finds somebody as trustworthy and loyal as herself another time too, I personally can’t see the point in a close emotional and physical relationship between two people who have no trust or loyalty for each other? It takes all sorts to make a world though, so let them get on with it!. Phil

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241. alwaysjan - September 7, 2012

I usually just comment on individual posts, but it’s been such a crazy week. I complained about the pathetic state of technology at my school and am now Co-Chair of the Technology Committee. I sent out a passionate letter to parents and just got two computers donated today – Mac Minis. “Ask and ye shall receive?” I do read everyone’s comments. Lesley, I SO understand what you said about children and families who’ve lost so much. Ultimately, what we have is our spirit and memories. Joe has one of my paintings in his apartment. My son had really wanted it, but ultimately it wasn’t worth contacting him to get it back. I can always paint another one. Maybe it’s because I’m watching the Democratic Convention, but my focus is on looking Forward (Yes, with a capital F). I’ve been there and don’t want to go back. Donna, you are indeed done. Better to be done than to be done in. 🙂
Also, Phil, so glad you had a regular servicing. LOL I hope you have a certificate to show for all that. If I do need that painting retrieved, I want the flak jacket for the full effect. Jan

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242. Trapped no more! - September 7, 2012

Donna, I agree with Phil that any contact for the N is taken as NS. They do not at all “get’ your emotional attachment. Instead, they see it as more power to themselves.

I do understand what you were trying to achieve, though, and will admit that at times this is helpful, but to us only. To them, it doesn’t even register on any scale. Towards the end, I would see him after reading all these posts and all the books I’ve collected, and I would view our visits were in a completely different light. I would listen to him and confirm everything i’ve read. So, in a way, it was helpful for me. It was part of the process of facing reality.

I would go through these phases where I had doubts. “Is he REALLY a narcissist? Or is he just confused and messed up?” In the end, though, the answer was it really doesn’t matter which one because who needs that in their lives? I was making excuses for his behavior and by doing this, I was enabling it. This is what he has had all his life so he has learned that he can act as he does and completely get away with it.

But when you are finally prepared to make that break, as everyone says, complete no contact is the rule. It is the only thing that works and it is the best weapon you’ve got. I am sure my ex-N at first felt quite confident and cocky that “she’ll come around”. But as the time wore on, the stark realization must have hit him (or not) that I really am not going to come around.

I highly doubt this has triggered any introspection for the guy and I suspect he probably rationalized it all way (if he gave it any thought at all) that I am the one with the problem and as such, he is better off without that “crazy” in his life. In the end, it is pretty irrelevant what he thinks because his wavelength is obviously so far off mine that it is like we are on completely different channels on the television. He is watching some porn movie and I was stuck in a horror flick.

I guess my point is that he is so far out of reality that there is no reasoning or understanding at all to be reached. If there is any contact, you must be aware that it is only for your recovery and that he has no effects from it, what-so-ever. It is a very sad and difficult concept to grasp, especially for people like us who view the world through a different lens. We give people the benefit of the doubt which is exactly why N-types hone in on us.

Again, I am not being critical of you because I fully understand where you are coming from. I am proud of you for taking those steps and know how hard it is. Stay strong.

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243. phil835 - September 7, 2012

Hi Trapped,

What a great post! You really cut to the heart of what it means to be dealing with a Narcissist and how to go about doing so. And most importantly, how to maintain your own sanity whilst also knowing what’s going inside their minds!!
In this respect we always have the advantage over them, so make sure you keep it that way!

Can’t repeat this enough times so I might as well say it again, once you rid them from your life maintain a ‘no contact’ whatsoever policy at all costs!

Trapped, your experiences mirror mine so much ! My N had the arrogance and audacity to think I would ‘come round’ whilst she meanwhile wouldn’t even need to acknowledge let alone confront her own behavour?

Like you said ‘I highly doubt this has triggered any introspection for the guy and I suspect he probably rationalized it all way’

The biggest red flag for me and something distinguishing us all from a Narcissist is this: If I had seriously offended or injured a friend? Whereby I genuinely was increduluous as to exactly for what reason or why they should be offended or wounded by something I had done?

I may be different? Tell me if I am? But the first thing I would do at having alienated somebody in this way (without reason) is to find out exactly HOW and WHY I had caused so much offence, if I really was at a loss as to why?

And if somebody makes little (if any) effort to establish HOW or WHY it was they offended you?
But instead goes straight to a ‘stop being silly’ or ‘whatever it was I’m sure you’re mistaken’. Always maintaining that you must have overeacted to or misunderstood something without trying to discover what? Arrogantly maintaining an ‘I know I’m right’ attitude without making any further investigation? Followed up by ‘I’ll wait till they ‘calm down’, start being reasonable and come round again?

It’s gaslighting and they know it. If they really didn’t underatnd your reactions, then surely there should be some attempt to understand them for a reasonable person? I was willing to talk to my N and explain how and why she had caused offence when she had! Yet she was incredibly evasive and avoided candid discussions at all costs. She claimed to hate conflict and prefered to forget rather than enquire! I Wonder why?

As Trapped says about the N they are ‘so far out of reality that there is no reasoning or understanding at all to be reached’

This is so true! The only useful N injury I may have inflicted (and I don’t recommend conflict with them as there is no point and they will get over it eventually)

I showed her just how far out of reality she really was, by revealing to her what most people really thought of her! No doubt she probably surrounded herself with her closest retinue of equally warped minded people to repair that injury! A Narcissist is somebody who can call black white all day long, until they finally believe it themseles! Phil

P.S. Jan, Not sure if I have a certificate? My N only wanted me for parts in anycase! 😉

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244. Lesley - September 7, 2012

Donna,I would just be repeating what the other’s are saying to you,keep the look in his eyes in your mind and that will help.Thinking of you.Recovery is so hard…
One of the facts I’ve had to take on board about my own recovery is how insular I have been of late..I’ve kept up with close friends through coffee or them coming to my house but I have rarely’gone out’ to mingle or socialise since my Narc Attack.I’ve cycled,walked and read a lot.
It’s difficult for others to understand the lasting effects of a Narc.
A conspiracy was/is afoot between my friend Kirstin,her husband and my traitorous son(lol) to get me ‘oot the hoose’ as we say in Scotland
My son’s motivation is to have the house to himself..let’s face it!
Anyway,I thought I was going over to Kirstin’s house tomorrow…but it seems I am going on what can only be described as a set up,’almost blind date’ to make up a ‘four’ with Kirstin and husb.It’s like I say one things to her…and she hears another!
I said I will come out for an hour.She arranged a pub and a Turkish restaurant! I made her promise me that the guy knew I did not see it as a date etc… then…he e-mailed me this morning to say he was looking forward to our ‘date’! I know him vaguely and he is seriously not my type…this morning he revealed that he’s’very metrosexual’and likes to pamper himself with facecreams/highlight his hair,he votes Tory,doesn’t get alternative comedy,(hates Steve Coogan /Rob Brydon??)and worst of all HE DOESN’T FOLLOW THE TENNIS!!!.
On a serious note.I get that other’s don’t understand.I wouldn’t inflict experiencing the pain of Narc Abuse on anyone.
It’s why Jan’s site is so important for touching base about the process of healing.
Of my close friends and family only my sister and one other person know what happened entirely. I have a friend at work who knows part of the story.I could not explain things fully to my parents,particularly his somatic side…so as lot of recovery has to be faced up to alone…the reality of it is tough.Each of our journey’s are different.
At times it felt as if I had had a layer of skin removed as I feel so raw but more and more I appreciate the bizarre and even funny side to their awful behaviour…
I will keep you posted about my’date’. At the very least I may get some beauty product tips.(Lol!!!)

Light Shine All,
Lesley

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Donna - September 8, 2012

To all my friends here I am doing fine. Seeing the blank look in his eyes just confirmed “He is what he Is”. He seems to believe that I trashed his “character” to others, which is far from the truth, I am just not that type of person. He will live as he lives and “Yes” Phil he will contine to live as he lives with the only people he can charm and will put up with his behavior.

I am “Not that One”. I have totally deleted myself from his life for good. I am comfortable enough and secure enough to continue on my, Path and journey called my, “Life”.

I offered him “Peace” which I even reached with My “EXNH”. Peace is not something he wants or needs. He will go to his grave with “No Redemption”.

I am all OK, that I am a good woman the cared about a “Sick Man!!! I am going to an Ole’ School Concert” tomorrow evening and plan to have some Fun……

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245. phil835 - September 7, 2012

Hi Les,

And good luck on your date. It’s sounds like your friend Kirstin and son have conspired for you to have some serious fun tonight!

And for the benefit of our American bloggers, les’s date was the only Scot who voted Tory (Republican) at the last general election! 😉

How do you find them Les? 🙂

Healing after the Narc attack is important, we should never allow them to cause us to become insular, even if that’s how we feel? I know I can hold myself high and not feel any remorse or regret for my own actions. The Narcissist ought to but they don’t. So nobody should suffer as a victim like they ought to be doing as the abusers they are. Phil

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lesleyb66 - September 7, 2012

Hi Phi,
The ‘Date’ is tomorrow Phil…Bloody Hell I need time to prepare..!!
And also for the benefit of our(esteemed) American bloggers,my date IS possibly the only Scot who voted Tory(Republican)at the next general election…
You can always recognise a Tory in Scotland by their Flak jackets..put it this way…they need to wear one!!!

Cheeky Bugger…..!(LOL)

Les

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246. lesleyb66 - September 7, 2012

Trapped,just wanted to add my thoughts on your insightful post.When you ask ‘Is he really a Narcissist’ I identify strongly with this. In fact in the months leading up to the end of the relationship I bargained with every theory going to discover meaning to his behaviour.For a long time I thought and hoped he had some faulty attachment issues..maybe a depressive illness.In the end I accepted that his behaviour made me feel bad about myself and the relationship.End of.
1.The acceptance of ‘lack of definite label’ is paramount to moving on…
We mention Baggage Reclaim website occasionally here. I did post there regularly over a number of years. Natalie the creator is adamant in her dislike of’Labels’.The whole premise of her belief system about relationships is to monitor consistent behaviour over a long period of time.Of course some patterns of behaviour are easier to spot than others,Cluster B’s/Narcs for example.However…it remains less important to label a behaviour than to know when this behaviour can fry your soul to a crisp!
There is also a healthy selfishness to this.As Phil alludes to, if someone cannot give the time to any analysis of why they might have upset you…and resolutely refuses to do this. Then you are not in a reciprocal relationship.This will not magically get better.If you stay, you,as an adult become responsible for what will happen next…
2.This accountability is also paramount to moving on.
(The accountability is yours not theirs?If you stay…wear the blame?)
I appreciate that both Jan and Natalie’s blog turn the light inward towards ourselves but also demand much?We all have to ask ourselves what would happen if the Narc came back…and said she/he would change?Donna has rightly been asked if she did the right thing in contacting her ex- friend. Perhaps only Donna knows this?We are actually only as strong as our last behaviour towards them? We choose how to define ourselves.to them.
I believe there is a new resolve within you Trapped and I know how many times you have faltered with this predatory man.Your break through for me,is shown by your recognition that you’Enabled Him’.Yes,you enabled him big time!(LOL)
There is a factor however,that I believe that most of us are getting stuck on or were stuck on.We hoped for their Introspection.?This is why(Phil),you felt compelled to tell her what other’s thought of her or hoped formerly she’d be open to discussion…this is why I gathered evidence and confronted my ex.We hoped for potential insight and behaviour change.
There is none. So…
3.The acceptance that there is no Introspection within a Narc(unless they are personally adversely affected )is paramount to moving on.
However,we’re human and hope for the best. Moths attracted to the light come to mind with their’seconds of memory’ that make them forget the burn.There is something within the ways of a Narc that provokes this reaction.
My ex’s girlfriend(the primary one before me) left in the middle of the night without explanation.She simply disappeared.This was the worst Narc injury anyone could have done to him. If I regret anything,it’s that I didn’t do exactly the same.

Lesley

We do look for EVERY possible explanation/excuse for why they behave as they do. At one time I thought Joe was possibly Asperger’s but then remembered that all three boys I’ve taught who were diagnosed as such did not have a mean bone in their body.
Lesley, is right in that we hope that WE will be the one to inspire introspection in the N. We want to be the exception to the rule. I love him more and accept him for who he his, so he should recognize that I’m worthy. But, sadly that’s not the case. You’re destined to go down in flames along with all the others as you got to close… Jan

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247. phil835 - September 7, 2012

Hi Les,

There is one benefit to being a narcissist, I find that they can go anywhere and do anything, even in the most hostile of company! My N suffered from social myopia, she really didn’t have any social intelligence whatsoever! Where I might back away from awkward social encounters, it’s as though she really was covered in teflon and oblivious to it all? Their false ego is a ready made ‘flak jacket’ 🙂
And if they are ever even dimly aware that they are disliked or have offended anyone? It’s as though it just ‘bounces off them’ and they carry on regardless! These were just my perceptions of my N in social situations, I’m not sure if anyone else observed similar?

You raise a good point about ‘faulty attachment issues’ or what I initially thought was a ‘committment phobia’. It’s a yes but no answer. They never are going to form any genuine, meaningful or real attachments to anyone. That doesn’t mean this is because of an attachment phobia as the root cause of their failure to form attachments. Narcissism is the underlying issue if you have correctly identified this trait?

Labels are not the be all and end all of everything. If you are in a Toxic relationship and need to exit for your sanity and health, then you must do so! Whether or not your partner fits the label of Narcissist perfectly and slots neatly into that pigeon hole, is pure academia.

That said, I want to echo some of trapped sentiments. When I labelled my N as an N, I identified her in person and Jan forwarded her in to the ‘hall of fame’ for Narcissists. Jan’s friend has a ‘vault’ where she keeps them all referenced! 🙂
When Jan told me this, I was horrified to think of the possibility that I might have made a mistake? I felt like a jury asked to convict the accused ‘beyond all reasonable doubt’!
It’s not as though my N will go to jail or receive a sentence (some of us may think they ought to, Narcissist of not) but I was uneasy about applying the label of NPD in an increasingly Narcissistic society, where Narcissitic traits can be observed in all.

That all said, I’m certain my N and Trapped’s N meet the criteria fully, les’s N not only meets the criteria but exceeds it to the extent he is approaching full psychopath.

This is hard to get your head around. They say not all Narcissists are alcoholics, but all alcoholics are Narcissists.
And not all Narcissists are psychopaths, but all psychopaths are Narcissists. Food for thought. Phil

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Emily Bodnar - September 9, 2012

I observed and was confused by my ex friend’s abilities in “hostile” environments. He spent a lot of time in the place where I work and got involved in a few group activities there. I probably mentioned before that once every couple of months something would have him in a tizzy enough for him to storm out of the building and peel out of the parking lot. He also got into an a argument with one of the building managers (long story, but the gist of it was that this manager was giving a tour of the building to some big-wigs and my ex friend approached him to get him to open a locked area for his personal use. The manager told him he was too busy at that moment to be able to do that for him, so then an argument ensued during which my ex friend claimed the manager raised his arm to punch him).

After all of these incidences, my ex friend would leave and stay gone for a few days to two weeks and would come back behaving as if nothing had happened. I just couldn’t fathom this. If I encountered a situation someplace that had me running out in anger or tears, I wouldn’t be likely to go back there at all. Especially if I’d been threatened with violence!!!

When the my ex friend’s girlfriend’s behavior towards me got ugly, he seemed strangely unconcerned. He seemed to not at all get why it would be so upsetting for me to have someone actively demonstrating their dislike for me. I just assumed that it he was doing the mental gymnastics necessary to justify his new girlfriend’s nastiness. Now I can see that maybe its something that just didn’t register in his brain.

The manager/key fiasco was a bit of a turning point for me. I wanted to believe what my ex friend told me happened, but I also know the manager and I’m absolutely sure he’d never hit anyone–in fact, he’s frequently relied upon to help resolve high conflict situations. It became pretty apparent to me that my ex friend’s perception of events could be very far from reality. I also found myself feeling resentful towards the manager, not because he got angry with my ex friend, but because he stood up to him. I wondered why he didn’t just give my ex friend what he wanted. There didn’t have to be an argument if he’d just complied. Then it dawned on me that I was expecting this manager to walk on the same eggshells I was. I couldn’t expect that from anyone. But,unfortunately, I was still okay with putting myself on those eggshells. I let myself stay firmly attached to my ex friend for about another year after that. :/

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lesley - September 9, 2012

Hi Emily,
I read your story with interest and thought I’d add a bit from the fairly distant past. About 15 yrs ago I was still working for a Health Authority and we had a project which involved work placement volunteers.One of these volunteers was known to me as the wife of an old school friend.This woman ‘Ann’ had a long term history of mental health problems,she was diagnosed as Borderline PD..within days she began causing conflict within the dept and the other volunteers.She often stormed out the building at unknown slights?Things came to a head when she began mimicking a Bangladeshi man’s accent and being directly prejudiced to him.She was spoken to by the manager and stormed out. Everyone assumed this was the last we would hear from her.Two weeks later,I came into work and she was standing outside my office asking’What will I be doing today?’She behaved exactly as if nothing had occurred.
We rationalised this at the time as Ann needing us more than we needed her?We actually gave her the benefit of the doubt.
I have kept up with her behaviour since then.She absolutely never holds down a job,she is oppositional in every situation wherein she feel loss of status or that her vvv important needs are not being met.I cannot begin to tell you what this has done to her children. They apparently have massive behaviourhal problems and chronic anxiety.
Her perception of events is skewed.If she believes something about a person or situation then it is concrete reality for her and not just an opinion…so if you attack her opinion you attack her.She therefore is on the attack 24/7.
I noticed the similarities in your story and thought to mention
it.She is extreme BPD and possibly incurable.
As an aside Ann is also very narcissistic,the last time we met I complimented her on a dress she had on. She narrowed her eyes and said’Why did you not say that to me when I had it on before!’
It’s best to remain detached from these Individuals,sad as the situation might be for their families,

Lesley

Emily & Les,
We had an extremely close friend who met my husband in college. They reconnected after 20 years of not seeing one another. Little did we know, she’d been officially diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder.She lived next door to us for three years and constantly created drama in her life then would ask for our help. She could NOT hold down a job for any length of time so ended up “freelancing” and living off of boyfriends. She withdrew $50,000 out of her last boyfriend’s account (she was overseeing his business’ finances). He told us he’d rather lose the money than have any more contact with her. People like this run hot and cold and expect all to be forgotten like they’re small children. We ultimately had to eliminate all contact with her due to her toxic nature. Although she spent years in therapy,she never changed. She was very narcissistic (all of the Cluster B disorders share this nasty trait). Jan

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MillyRad - September 11, 2012

To me, most of my ex friend’s behavior screams BPD, but there’s definitely some heavy narcissism thrown in there for good measure. Les, your statement about your organization rationalizing your ex-coworker’s continued presence as her needing the organization way more than they needed her SO hits home with me. I feel a bit mean saying this, but I’ve felt this sentiment from others involved in EVERY project in which they’ve participated with my ex-friend–that they want to strangle him, but don’t think it’s worth it to confront him because the project is for fun or for the community’s sake, not for profit. Quite often, arrangements are made so that his participation is not vital to the completion of the project. If he shows up, great, if he bails at the last minute, no big deal. Another frustrating thing he’s done is start projects that involve others, but be very unclear about who does what. He won’t do any of the grunt-work, but gets annoyed when ohers look like they’re working harder at him than he is. Then, when the project hits one tiny snag he abandons it, leaving his coworkers to wonder what’s going on. Gah! And then when it’s been abandoned a reasonable amount of time for everyone to assume it’s not happening, he comes back and behaves hurt that no one was waiting with bated breath for his “final decision” on the matter!

I accidentally found out that my ex friend has moved his girlfriend into his house. How he cannot sustain a close friendship, but seems to be having great success in his relationship is so confusing. I’m pretty sure it’s a double whammy of the girlfriend also being very emotionally unhealthy, and my ex friend’s being mostly manic for the last few years. He stopped taking his medication a few months before his girlfriend moved to town and he’s pretty much been in a constant state of mania or hypomania since–very little depression. I wonder if maybe being manic gives a narcissist “energy” to keep the mask on longer?

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248. Trapped no more! - September 8, 2012

Phil, quite true about a serious difference between a N and most other people: that being if we feel we have offended and/or hurt someone, most of us make efforts to find out what we’ve done and repair the damage, especially if that someone is a person we are intimately involved with. And even if that person is not within our inner circles, we normally will make some efforts to at least clear the air.

The N, on the other hand, seems oblivious to it all. He’ll ignore any attempts on our part to try to explain what it was he has done to hurt us or to “talk out” our problems as most people do in relationships. Or worse, he will immediately become flippant or belittling, pushing it all back on you and making you feel as if you are being a “drama queen” or irrational. If there is any serious attempt to discuss it, he/she will become a magician and begin to twirl the conversation around in circles so that you are confused as to what is being said. Suddenly, you will find the topic has become abstract and off the point.

“What does it mean to tell the truth anyway? It seems that no one ever really tells the truth in their lives” he will stay in a pseudo-philosophical way, playfully steering the conversation away from the main points. This is all it takes for him, as he hopes for a distraction like a text or phone call to come in, and they always did, as if on cue.

Because conversations rarely get anywhere with an N, we often try e-mails because we can compose our thoughts and get them all out there without any interruptions of skillful avoidance…I’ve sent my ex N (in the past) many eloquent e-mails detailing how I felt. I would sit down and carefully word them, spending hours playing with the sentences to get them just so. I didn’t want to offend him, yet I wanted to be sure I got my point across…I would send them off and wait…always, without exception, I heard absolutely nothing in response. Nada.

The only time there would be a response if if I had made a judgement or comment about him which directly pertained to his personality or in some way hit his core. This, I was good at, if you can imagine. Then, I would hear nothing for a few days before finally getting a barrage of texts and phone calls demanding to know if I meant what I said. He would act like a hurt little boy. But to clarify, this was only if it was about him. I could tell him I was going to jump off a cliff and there would be…NO RESPONSE.

I don’t think I am explaining this very well, but what it comes down to is that it really doesn’t matter at all what you think or feel, not even in the very slightest way. But if you attack THEM, knocking them off their little pedestal, it is a major offense. This shows how fragile they really are, despite all the airs they put on. It is quite interesting how this fragility only extends to themselves, however. Interesting in that one would think someone who as such sensitivities would have them across the board, as in, they would feel sad if they thought they were hurting someone else. Not so with the N. He/she is quite insular in every way. It really boggles my mind when I try to think about it.

Phil, I would be happy to put my exN in the hall of narcissist. The only problem is that by the time someone would look there and find his name, they would be looking for a reason, i.e, they already would have sustained a N-injury. I wish there were a list posted just like the “most wanted” lists in the police station that women and men could look at and say “Oh, I’m staying away from that one!”

The problem is that he is so good at what he does that by the time you figure it out, you’ve been sucked in. Then, all that rational and intuitive thought seems to be overridden by whatever passion he has inflicted on you. It is like he is some cult leader, able to manipulate your thoughts in a way that creates this sick dependence upon him. There is a name for this, I think someone else mentioned, and it happens in situations where a hostage is taken and over time develops this sick dependence or defense of their captors; Stockholm syndrome. I think the “relationship” with a N is similar to this, in some respects. It isn’t until we pull ourselves free and step back that we see the full extent of it.

I used to defend this guy, saying he has an illness and that he can’t help it and that he needs understanding. Yes, it is quite true that he definitely has an illness. He likely is a psychopath and he definitely is a con man. There is no doubt he is a pathological narcissist. I am not a psychotherapist, but he fits every description as if he had written the books himself.

Like Lesley, I, too, have become somewhat elusive from my friends. As I’ve said, I haven’t given out my new phone number to very many people, though I now am coming around as I run into people who have been trying to get a hold of me. I limit my social interactions to my daughter, who, in just a week will be going off to college. But I need to branch out, especially when she leaves, because if I do not, then he has “won” in some respects.

Yet, as you all say, this injury they have inflicted upon us is not easily repaired. It takes time and much gentle introspection. It takes caution as well. In weak moments, we need some sort of tool to help us stay on track. Luckily, I am having fewer and fewer weak moments. Mostly I feel hatred towards him and remember only the negative things he did to me. Soon, though, I am expecting these moments to dissolve and he will just become a nothing to me, not even in my consciousness.

The trickiest thing of all is the thought of actually exploring a relationship with another male…at this point, there is too much fear in my heart to even consider it. And this makes me pretty angry because all along, from the start, I expressed this fear to him and pleaded with him to leave me alone if he did not feel the same way about me. Of course, this was bait for him to just jump in and use, use, use.

OK, it is just after 6 am and a gorgeous Saturday morning. I’ve got a short run to do, then the day to prepare for a picnic tonight with my daughter. I have no ideas what to make. Believe it or not, internet searches reveal nothing. Guess where I am going tonight, Jan? Fireworks. Picnic. LA Phil. Dudamel. Even the ABT doing a few variations!

Lesley, have fun on your date (probably doing it as I write?). How fun would that be if this person turned your fancy?

Actually, you explained this brilliantly! As I’ve said before, it wasn’t until I read Stalking the Soul by Marie-France Hirigoven and she described how confusing communication is with a narcissist that I GOT it. She even mentioned how many (women in particular) feel the need to write a letter/email to try to clear the air and be “heard.” And as you said, there response is typically NADA. I once sent Joe a text message. No reply. Later I asked if he got it. He responded,”Oh, I thought you sent that to me by mistake because it didn’t have anything to do with me.”

I have several close friends who are sending their beloved “kids” off to college this week. They’ve been surprised at how emotional they felt, so you’re smart to be thinking of what to do once your daughter is off at school.

Yes, the hate will eventually fade to indifference which allows no room for remorse. You’ve just learned an extremely valuable, albeit painful lesson, so it’s no wonder that you’ll be taking baby steps when it comes to new people and dating.

I’m not a betting person, but I’m thinking the Hollywood Bowl?!!! When my English Lesley came to visit, we took her there for a lovely night under the stars to hear Chis Isaak. One of my first dates with my husband was there. He’d been working all hours on an independent film and fell asleep on my shoulder and started snoring! 🙂 Jan

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249. phil835 - September 8, 2012

Hi Trapped,

The similarities are remarkable. I don’t think I’ve talked or coverred as much as I ought to, about how elusive the N is when you try to confromt them with some straight talking?

You really capture what it’s like to try and get anywhere in conversation with a Narcissist, it really is as though these two people are interchangeable.
if this wasn’t public domain, I could show you some IM transcripts of me attempting to have a clear the air discussion the my N in open and candid way. I have in writing me offering to explain exactly how and why she had caused offence (Where the offence I had taken had been ‘seemingly’ incomprehensible to her)
Exactly as you desribe it. It was something like
N. ‘I really can’t understand for what reason you became upset and verbally abusive to me?’
Me ‘Ok I’ll tell you exactly how I felt and why!’
N I can’t be bothered with this conversation I don’t have time, have you seen the news this morning, oh wait, that’s the doorbell I must dash!’

And because there is no opportunity for real dialogue, reach out to them on a level where you can make your feelings known (or at least be considered)
The only avenues left are to engage in some conflict whereby you can get a response out of them. The Narcissist understands and cares deeply about their own feelings. Exactly as Trapped says!
And the times I was abusive to my N, it was the frustration of having to ‘throw up a dark mirror’ to try and get through to them. Giving them an exact measure of their own medicine to see how they like it? As if it would light a bulb in their brains and they’d suddenly realise what it feels like to be trat like crap?
it doesn’t work though, instead hey’ll hop about from foot to foot, run, hide, cry or do anything apart from act like a ‘reasonable adult themselves.
Their gaslighting and use of language is remarkable, they try to claim a monopoly that they are reasonable, rational and mature adults. It’s easy to play into their hands if and when you do lose it though?
They can only get away with it so much. The one red flag (which was an amber flag at the time) I didn’t interpret as I should have. Like how Les describes her N’s ex girlfriend. I heard stories about my N’s ex partners. They would leave without a trace or a word, threaten to strangle her.
I reasoned at the time that she had ‘poor judgement’ or perhaps had a tendency to attract the wrong sort of men?
In good faith I accepted her descriptions of her previous partners as all being psychos. How unlucky my N was in her choice of men in which case? 😉 Phil

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250. phil835 - September 8, 2012

Hi Jan, if you feel like editing my post for the typos and errors please feel free? I type too quick and don’t proof read before I send! Phil

Haha! Phil, I’m to done/done in with school work to take on your speedy typing and spelling issues. I’ve still got 29 spelling tests to grade! Just remember that punish has only one “n.” I find when my computer is telling me I’m spelling something wrong, I go up to google and type it in for the correct spelling. Jan

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251. lesley - September 8, 2012

Trapped/Phil,
Not out yet Trapped, It’s just past 5 here…just wanted to say I love that expression ‘turned your fancy’..however perhaps too soon for me also.
Healing is where I am right now.
If we have no control over the uncontrollable and sickeningly similar Narc we can at least help ourselves to heal.We have control of that.

Your second paragraph@ comment 248 was my experience exactly. Whether by e mail or sitting debating at kitchen table or on the telephone…they are masters at distraction and gaslighting.Perhaps since they have been doing it all their lives?
The only time he took on board what I said was when I asked
‘How would you feel if this happened to you?’!!!(He could only imagine pain/hurt from his own perspective)

Re the anger,in the first month or two after it ended.. I had fantasies akin to the last scenes of Braveheart! My anger was turned inwards also and I caught myself shaking my head in wonderment in my quieter moments’Thinking how on earth did I allow this to happen?’
Jan’s right..these flashes of incandescent rage fade. Regret is my main emotion just now. I wish I had walked away without explanation nor showed him my tears.

Phil re your exes myopia in social interaction and her teflon coated reactions…my experience with my Narc is slightly different. He was excellent,(world class even), at initial one to one interaction or holding court in a group he knew well AND if and only if, there was something to be gained from this.
So he would have aced interviews,he impressed my parents…he seduced women through words and eye contact.
Put him in a mixed group say… his family,mine..couple of random others,maybe a work colleague or two and he faltered.Terribly.
He couldn’t manage the masks.Remember I said ages ago that they actually have many mirrors and the reflections all slightly vary…
He lost it completely when this happened because he was being presented with his own range of distortions.?

Must get ready..have a good night everyone,
Les

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252. phil835 - September 8, 2012

Hi Les,

Hope you have great night and have some fun, we all need to take our minds off the Narcissist somehow? They have such a negative impact on our lifes. My own particular agony only became so protracted, because she impacted my relations with others which then caused me professional problems also.
In terms of what she had to offer in a relationship, I can’t say I miss not having an emotional black hole to throw away what’s left of my life away on! 🙂

Les I want to clarify something about my N’s social ineptitude and her lack of social intelligence and awareness.
She could act her own part, ace interviews, impress people (or try to at least).

But as the Narc is always acting, they are thinking foremost about their own carefully constructed character. Thinking about what their particular role is, what their next lines are going to be?This acting applies in any given social situation, amoungst whichever group of people or person they happen to be interacting with.

I take on board your observation that the N has probably cultivated numerous masks? Tayloring their character according to who they are intereacting with. Therefore a mixed group of people will cause them to falter, being unable to manage and swap masks amoungst mixed company simultaneously! That’s the stuff of comedy for sure.

What I was getting at about my N’s social ineptitude, is that she doesn’t understand other people in any depth. She’s too preocupied iwth her own acting. If they do have a weakness, then people who are willing to flatter the N’s false ego can gain an advantage over the N. They generally don’t study other characters in any depth, they have their own agenda and their own part to play. But they don’t invest the time needed to learn how the motives and social interactions of others function. That’s why they are myopic. Phil

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253. Trapped no more! - September 9, 2012

I just wanted to add in a comment that the N said to me after receiving one of my e-mails that contained a few not-so-nice but truthful words about his personality. He said that I was “like a two year old having a tantrum and stamping her feet when she didn’t get her way”. I read that incredulously because there was no ‘way” I was trying to get, other than to be treated with respect. It is just an example of how he avoided the real issue and put the attention back on me as the culprit.

Another thing I was thinking about yesterday was how he came to visit me (one time only, even though I was in a week) in the hospital after my riding accident. I was in a great deal of pain, as one would imagine, after broken ribs and punctured lungs. I actually had to practically beg him to come. While there, he looked uneasy and finally said “seeing other people in pain causes me to feel pain” and he left as quickly as he could, using “I have a lesson” as an excuse (when he never had had lessons at that time before).I heard little more from him the entire week I was there. And why would I? How much NS can one provide when they are incapacitated?

About having multiple masks, for sure this guy does. I am a vegetarian and he would tell me he was a vegan for ten years (to impress, no doubt). One day, I showed up at this place to give him something and he was cooking. In his frying pan was…a big, fat steak! He hemmed and hawed and said “I can’t keep weight on as a vegan. I need meat. This is the best meat there is, organic, free range..’ he went on and on, covering it up.

He also was very inconsistent, not at all disciplined or focused. One week he would be into this craze of taking insane amounts of niacin, thinking it was cool when he got the flush and saying it had huge health benefits. (I always suspected he was using it for sexual reasons!). Anyway, that would last a week or so before the next thing came up: taking literally cupfuls of vitamins and supplements. The entire time I knew this man, he was always doing some other thing and acting like it was the newest and latest thing. It would last a week or so, then he would forget about it. He did the same thing with his workouts, his daily schedule, and who knows what else.

I am not knocking someone for trying something new, but I always found it odd and scattered to do it for a few days or maybe a week, then seemingly completely forget about it. It just demonstrated to me a complete lack of conviction or focus or whatever you want to call it. I used to suspect these things came from women he was idolizing at the moment, or in response to a woman and he wanted to impress her. Not sure. I know when I was newly into Buddhism, he would have a Buddhist film cued up on his Netflix when I came over. But if any of you know even a smidgen of Buddhism, you know that this guy completely misread the five precepts as “I WILL harm living things, I WILL take things not freely given, I WILL engage in sexual misconduct, I WILL lie, and I WILL use intoxicating drugs.” It was like those precepts were written for him to break or with him in mind as the worst example of what NOT to do.

I used to be incredulous when he would brag that he knew Buddhism. But then again, he often would say that he doesn’t believe in any Gods except in himself. “Got that one” I would think to myself. He used to brag that “rules are for breaking” and that “laws don’t apply to him.”

As for his acting capabilities, I will admit I never got much interaction with him in outside company. This is because I was the hidden one and usually saw him at his place or on walks in rural areas. But I do know, that like Lesley described her ex-N, he has a very powerful way of putting on the charm which he has perfected.

A telling moment for me was when we were walking in his neighborhood (an exclusive gated area with a live guard) and we passed the guard, whom I had met only a few weeks before. I casually mentioned the guard’s name as we walked on and he said “Who??” I said, “You know, —-.” “I have no idea who that is” “Uh, he is the security guard.” I was quite surprised because the N had lived in this neighborhood for over 10 years and the guard has been there as long and is a regular and the N had talked to him quite a bit (the guard mentioned many in depth conversations he has had with him). I just couldn’t fathom how you could talk to someone over a ten year span and not make an effort to know his name. But, that is the point, he was talking TO him, not with him. There was no point to get to know him. He was just another person to impress (the guard had told me how much the N knew about nutrition).

He once bragged to me that he knows exactly what to say and do to get a woman to “do anything I want her do.” He said he can get them to sexually do anything for him because he knows just what things to “give them” to get them to emotionally want to give him anything. He was referring to one woman who in the past (although I later found out it was while I was seeing him) would happily have anal sex (and other things) and say she liked it.

This I heard near the end of our time together and it only confirmed my suspicions of his psychopathic nature. It is despicable to manipulate someone for one’s own gain. I liken it to raping them in a subconscious way because what he is doing is drugging them psychologically in order to get what he wants. I hope I am not offending anyone with that statement, but in reality, this is what he is doing. Instead of dropping a pill in their drink, he is using his abilities to put a shroud of deception over them. He then takes what he can get and discards them without a thought.

And as I said before, when asked about how he feels when they figure out he was playing them, he said “lesson learned on their part.” Yes. We also learn to be very careful when ordering things on the Internet, when buying things in a flea market, and when looking at ‘authentic’ jewelry in a foreign country. He is no different than those opportunists, except that what he is stealing is much more precious than our money.

Those are my thoughts this morning. I actually saw him yesterday, sauntering across a parking lot. I imagined a toxic aura around him. I had just had my very first astrological reading, which was quite interesting in that this guy described a lot of who I am without ever knowing me or seeing me (it was by phone), based on how the planets were aligned when I was born.

I was skeptical until he began to go into a lot of detail and it was exactly how I had lived my life to that point. Yes, I know you can explain away a lot of things in a generic way and make them fit into any scenario you like, but this was more than that. I am still not sure what to make of it.

Anyway, he actually got to the N and said he was evil and to stay as far away as him as physically possible. He said this karma will come back to the guy some time in his future. I don’t know about that because it seems they just keep on going. But maybe I can see it as he is living a very shallow and unfulfilling life and this is his payback?

Yes, Jan, it was the Hollywood Bowl! Dudamel wasn’t there last night, but there was an equally fun conductor, Bramwell Tovy, a Brit. He was great. I discovered the shuttle bus which made the event even more fun since there wasn’t the parking/driving nightmare to deal with. I would highly recommend this to anyone! It was a very fun night and my daughter especially enjoyed the dancers from American Ballet Theater who were spectacular.

OK, time for a run. My parrot woke me at the crack of dawn so I have no excuses this morning! Lesley, I hope you had an equally wonderful night!

I had to laugh at you walking in and finding him cooking a steak. The N I was friends with prided himself on his healthy eating. I can still remember him walking in one day when I was eating yoghurt and him saying, “A woman your age really shouldn’t be eating dairy.” Huh? He basically lived on fruit and nuts (but not peanuts as they were TOXIC). But when we went to a party, he grabbed a handful of cookies to take with him. He could talk like a guru about something then turn around and do the opposite and be able to explain it away. He truly was a legend in his own mind. He would say the most ridiculous things “with authority.”
I liked your reference to how careful you have to be when buying something off the internet, at a flea market, or buying jewelry in a foreign country (that could also be a rug, Phil). After you’ve been with a N, you become hyper-vigilent in terms of wanting to know if a person is really what/who they’re “advertising.”
I’ve seen the multiple masks as well. We all do that to an extent. In school, we call it “Code Switching” referring to a child’s ability to speak one way at home and another in an academic setting. They can adapt to the situation. So can the N within limits. They’ll basically tell you what you want to hear or fawn over you if they need something (supply? a recommendation? a job?), but it’s their day-to-day interactions with those closest that reveal their true natures. The guard had no purpose other than to open the gate. So why bother getting to know someone who is to the N basically a human button?
What you’re describing is a very calculating individual who delights in pulling one over on someone or getting them to breach their own boundaries. This gives him a feeling of power. Creepy AND sad.
Yes, we take the shuttle from Pasadena when going to the Hollywood Bowl. We went to Bergamot Station last night for an art opening in Santa Monica. Must have had to park half a mile away! I was glad to get home though it was warmer inland. ;)Jan

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254. phil835 - September 9, 2012

Hi Trapped/Les.

I so much look forward to your posts. Trapped, I think you should enter your N into Jan’s ‘Hall of fame’ vault aftter all. Not to warn others (because as you say, when people realise what they are it’s probably too late). Instead, I’d like your N to someday be introduced to my N as soul mates!
And as she signalled her intent to oneday ‘have a future relationship’ with me in other circumstances’. I have a better idea! 😉

It’s a paradox or oxymoron if you like, that in order to have a soul mate, surely you first need to be in possession of a soul? 😉 If my N did have a soul, then she probably sold it a long time ago for the price of a cheap Narcissistic fix! (Needs must and never mind!) 😉

The similarities between these two are remarkable though!They are both deeply duplicitious to the very core.

And if they do have souls? To misuse Emily Bronte’s quote, my N could certainly say this about Trapped’s N. ‘Whatever our souls are made of his and mine are the same’ 🙂

I must clarify that the notion of two N’s being soul mates is a hideously stupid one. In so much as that to have a ‘soul mate’ implies not only a deep understanding with another, but also an inseparable loyalty and trust for that person also?

It’s that last part which just doesn’t seem to work out for the poor N! Having found their soul mate, how can they remain loyal and faithful to their soul mate?! When self interested contempt for others and a highly exploitive nature, is a bit of a stumbling block to any relationships based on mutual trust, respect and loyalty it would seem?

Such is the Narcs fate in life then, that they are destined to never to never be with the one who they may have truly loved? 😉
They could still meet their soul mates though, as a brief encounter as if two ships who pass each other in the night? I’m feeling all tearful thinking about the tragic fate of these two star crossed lovers! 😉
And if I turned it into a romance, it wouldn’t be a very good one!

Interestingly, by her own assessment my N has never been in love. But she did meet her soul mate once, so she assures me! It was that look into the said persons eyes which made her realise that they were the same! And as a bit of background for you all to the story of my N and her soulmate. Unfortunately her soul mate was married, and talked a great deal too much about his desire to be back with his wife!
So at first I felt like telling my N that her ‘soulmate’ was probably an unscrupuous cheat, a liar and a cad who had duped and manipulated her into thinking they had a special connection.

On reflection though, rather than tell her the contents of the above paragraph, I think it would be safe for me to intead say that she did indeed meet her soul mate! 😀 😀 😀 Phil

Do sharks recognize one another? Since they say your eyes are the window to your soul, that immediate connection makes me think more likely she saw herself reflected back to her! To take this a step further, I teach my students that the “pupils” in their eyes are thus called because when you look into someone’s eyes, you see yourself reflected as a smaller person – a pupil. Perhaps she saw not her soul mate, but herself? LOL
Jan
And it’s also rather lame to say you knew someone was your soul mate and yet you were never “together.” It allows her to idealize this soul mate, who himself, was unavailable. Had he been, me thinks it’s likely that he would have been knocked off THAT pedestal. Jan

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255. lesley - September 9, 2012

Hi All,
I now can only imagine the effects of a’Niacin Flush’…this made me a tad guilty for eating a toffee crisp today. What a slice of life you show me Trapped..this guy is a psychopath.
His comments to you whilst you were recovering in hospital are a direct match to my ex’s about his previous girlfriend. He explained that he didn’t visit her when she was having three inches of intestine removed because’He is useless in these stifling environments’.
Ditto?
My ex pretended to be many things to me.I love the American writer Edith Wharton…at the beginning of our relationship he’loved her too’.
He had never read a book of hers.Buddhism,Catharism(which is the closest to my view of the world and any God),Vegetarianism…my son has been veggie since he was eleven. He never wavers?
To be the ‘Not hidden one’ is not much nicer…in fact it may be worse because the lies are more involved and maybe the intention to lie over a longer period of time is there too. If I had not uncovered and confronted my ex then I would still be with him. It would be a living hell.
I thought when you talked about him saying that he could direct women by his actions to do whatever he wanted then I was reading about the Vulcan Mind Probe or sg??? No pun intended regarding anal sex!
What a space cadet!
If you saw him in a parking lot Trapped, go to another lot next time…no doubt he will seek you out and it’s not been long enough for you to be entirely strong or not moved by him?
Not sure what I think of astrology, but the advice given seems sound?
I am an Aquarian.
Phil, the idea of two Narcs being soul mates is farcical…but they may not work that out for a while. Or any of the other Narc pairings..look at Vankin and his partner…then look away quickly because you may feel queasy.
Emily may have got it right but the ‘Soul Mates’ principle confounds me on one salient point… I still think Soulmates have got to work at it.Day in and Day out… Narcs won’t even pick up the work schedule.?
I also think there are different kinds of love,Emily B also said that Cathy’s love for Linton was like the foliage of the forest…but her love for Heathcliffe was like the stones below?There is no point in being sorry for a Narc because they can experience neither of these….
Jan,your Bergamot Studio was great to look at… what a lovely chain this blog is…Bergamot Studio reminded me this morning that I had Bergamot and Rose bath oil…lovely. I had a bath and laughed at your e mail last night!
My date went well, I was a success. I came home to a text and an e mail this morning asking to meet again..I did not talk about tennis!
Alas my date does not get my love of a political satire called’The thick of it’..Jan knows the rest.!
This morning I watched’A single Man’ Tom Ford on I player….brilliant film.Colin Firth as gay guy in sixties America…the soundtrack is amazing. Have just downloaded.
Light Shine,
Les

My husband and I LOVED that film. Colin Firth, LA environs and two dogs! My younger son is gay. I’m always am amazed at how many people have had to live a public lie/life, when there only “crime” was to love someone. (I’m thinking of Sally Ride’s recent obit.)
I once told the N that I loved watching Stephen Colbert (political satire). The next day he made sure that I knew he had watched it the night before. If I had told him I watched the Shopping Network, he probably would have watched that too. LOL
Finally broke down and got a manicure/pedicure. Thought of you Lesley. >wink< My English Lesley found this nail salon a stone's throw from my house. I got a good scolding about my nail biting! But they do that every time I go. I feel like I can now wear shoes that show off my cloven hooves. 🙂
I'm not into astrology except when the message tells me what I want to hear (sort of like fortune cookie messages) That said, I'm very bull-headed and rather true to the traits of my sign. Go figure.
Oh, when I first met the N, his birthday coming up. I asked what sign he was. That’s kind of like saying HI in California. 🙂 He said, “Oh, I don’t believe in any of that stuff” with a disgusted look on his face. Later though he told me he could read tea leaves and palms. WTF?
Always, Jan

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256. phil835 - September 10, 2012

Hi All,

Les, glad you had great time on your date!
You know I’ve never really thought about a career change, but the experience of being with a Narc has given me some ideas. I think Jan teaches 3rd grade, I’ve decided how rewarding it might be to teach 2nd Graders though? The following is what we might expect from children in 2nd grade or at this key stage of emotional and moral development.(Age 7)

—————————————————————————

Morals and Rules
A 7-year-old is developing a strong sense of right and wrong, and is more likely to feel guilt and shame. They may be quite vocal and emphatic about fairness and justice.

Giving, Sharing and Empathy
At school, a 7-year-old is developing an understanding about the vastness of the world and the meaning of community and neighborhood. He has most likely learned about how to be a good member of his class by sharing, helping each other, waiting for his turn, participating in class activities, and so on.

He is also more likely to be able to understand other people’s actions and feelings, although it is natural for a 7-year-old to still be self-centered at times. Seven-year-olds are more able to put themselves in someone else’s shoes and work through conflict, although scuffles and hurt feelings can still break out among 7-year-old children.

This can be an excellent age to teach your child about what it means to be a good citizen of the world. You can talk about how to be charitable or ways you can help the environment. And while 7-year-olds are naturally developing empathy for others, you can help nurture his emotional intelligence. Set a good example, ask your child questions such as “how would you feel?” and work together to help those who are in need or less fortunate.

—————————————————————————–

It was a comment in Les’s earlier post that made me do some thinking. this is a quote is from Les’s earlier post……
“they are masters at distraction and gaslighting.Perhaps since they have been doing it all their lives?
The only time he took on board what I said was when I asked
‘How would you feel if this happened to you?’!!!(He could only imagine pain/hurt from his own perspective)”

The above was Les’s attempt to drag her N into second grade,
I was thinking about my own lack of success in dragging my N into second grade. The truth is I didn’t really try because I was so ashamed at the thought my N lacked so much moral and emotional maturity. It seems to me patronising in the extreme to talk to an adult in this way?

My N could certainly consider her own feelings and her own emotions, yes. And she could also consider ‘how she would feel’ if what was happening to another happened to her.
Where it breaks down though, is getting hte N to acknowledge how putting their own selfish needs foremost rather than showing restaint may harm others? If the N has a need, then that trumps all consideration for the adverse affect they may have on others, and empathy can go flying out of the window.
Avoiding even the possibility of guilt and shame, the N never acknowledges how they may have contributed to or caused another’s suffering. They always point to ‘other external forces’ and find ways of blame shifting to causes outside themselves. And being unable to get my N to take personal responsibility and acknowledge how her actions caused suffering to others. They never progress a stage further in moral development.
Give me Second graders instead! Phil

Phil,
I taught second grade for two years before going to third. I had these wonderful 7-year-olds (though on some days I wanted to tear my hair out). This IS so developmentally where they should be. I’ve had a couple of children along the way (in 2nd and 3rd grade) who already showed a lack of empathy, shallow/callow emotions, blamed others, and were highly manipulative. In my post “Ted Bundy’s Third Grade Teacher,” I talk about this. It’s disturbing to see these qualities/or lack of in one so young. Jan

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phil835 - September 10, 2012

Hi Jan,

Yes it’s quite amusing (and also disturbing) to think about. If a 36 – 37 year old hasn’t developed emotional and moral maturity like a 6 – 7 year old is hopefully doing, then they are never going to! This is my wall and something I’m struggling to accept. Your best piece of wisdom for me has being when you said something like ‘stop waiting for these emotional black holes to become human’
I had an e-mail from my Narc yesterday, I’ve not replied and don’t intend doing so. Phil

Yes, they will never suddenly “get it” and recognize that you were there for them. By staying within their reach, you just risk being sucked back into that Black Hole. Early on, I would have been tempted to reply to an email, but I’m SO past that. Indifference is your strongest defense again a N. It’s like Kryptonite! 🙂 I’m off to school to help my young charges continue to develop their moral consciences. We had a cheating incident on Friday and discussed this as a class. Beheading was vetoed. They took into account the person’s motivations and feelings before meting out the consequence. 🙂 Jan

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257. lesley - September 10, 2012

Hi Phil and all,
Wise words to read whilst I’m having lunch.Maybe I was trying to drag him unsuccessfully’up a grade’.Good Point.
Isn’t there a religious quote ‘Give me a child before he is 7 and I will show you the man’ This works for your example too?In other words by the time they got to us…they were set in stone or frozen in amber but I don’t like to associate Narcs with amber though because I like to wear it!
Just remembered that on the astrology side my ex researched my birthsign at the start of our relationship ‘How to seduce an Aquarian woman’…I remember thinking how endearing this was yuck! It might have been had be been normal but he possibly had the whole bloody horoscope tucked away somewhere.He would need it…
Realistically he had no interest in astrology…
I’ve said this before but he is Scotland’s answer to Dominique Strauss Kahn.That’s not a joke,complete stony and serious truth.
As an aside I should find out today how I have been ‘talked about’ by my ex in the aftermath, as the woman who filled me in on some of the worse details has a daughter enrolled here and will call into the staffroom tonight..we’ll catch up over coffee!I’m wondering about which adjectives he’ll choose for me?
So which external forces will he blame…,should be interesting?
Phil, re my ‘great’ date,,, I sent you and Jan an e mail after it.
It may have gone into your spam?

Back to work…
‘Give me a teenager when they are 17 and I will have damn good guess at where they’ve been!!!'(i Love them really)

Light Shine on this Monday!

Les

Yes, I always wonder how the N describes me. Because I easily made friends (with people he’d known), I actually think at the end he was actually afraid of me. He knew that I knew who/what he was and was freaked that I might have said something to others. My mask is slipping! Now, in regards to me, I think he would say something very vague as though he hardly knew me.
Dominique Strass Kahn has obviously been doing this his entire life. It’s always sad to see the wife “standing by her man.” Whether it was the maid, the reporter, (the baker, or the candlestick maker), ultimately, they were just conquests and didn’t matter as humans. Think of the power he wielded? Scary to think as he obviously had no moral scruples and had yet to evolve into a second grader! Jan

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trapped no more! - September 10, 2012

Jan, when I read your description of how some people have to live a public lie/life, I thought about my daughter’s high school. It was a fantastic place for her to go. As I think I’ve mentioned, a very high proportion of the kids were gay. It is a fantastic high school that encourages the kids to be themselves. It runs from 7th grade through 12th so the kids pretty much grow up there.

What is wonderful about it is the way these kids just grow into themselves. There is no ridicule, no judging, and no cliques. They are all there because they have a love of some art form and they had to really work to get in (audition). It is a public high school but has a huge backing from the community.

By the time the kids come out of that place, they are very comfortable with who they are, no matter who they are. It is nationally recognized and a very high percentage of the kids go onto very top colleges. My daughter will be heading up to Northern CA next week to the top school on the west coast!!

I think the colleges like students from this high school because they really demonstrate a maturity and openness that is pretty rare for adolescents. Anyway, I just wanted to mention it because it is a pretty cool concept and it is an excellent example of how creating the right environment can build up a kid so that they accept and love who they are.

I am sure it will be tough for some of these kids somewhere down the line, but starting out with a very good, strong sense of who they are will just make it all the more easy for them.

Lesley, the astrology I had the other day was the Indian type, not the western type, you know, having to do with houses and all that stuff (I was lost after 5 minutes on all those explanations). I still don’t know what to make of it that this guy got so close to the nitty gritty of my life without having met me. It seems like more than just a crap shoot. But, then again, it really makes no sense.

As far as age level and where the N was arrested, they always say around 6? That being said, I can say with authority that BOTH my kids had more empathy and morals at age 2 than my exN. The worst thing is that people who only peripherally know him think he is the sweetest, nicest guy.

Lesley, when you say you would still be with yours if people didn’t shed light on his ‘extracurricular activities’ does this mean he was nice enough to you, in general, that you would not leave him otherwise? I am just curious because I often wonder how my exN has been able to hold onto his “girlfriend” for 4 years now, despite that she has found evidence (and was even told, though not by a friend or acquaintance) of his infidelities. She has chosen, instead, to listen to his charm and lies.

It is this part that has me pretty confused, though it wouldn’t change a thing for me now. I just wonder if he is different with her? We all know he is lying right and left to her, but is he nicer, more loving, more “normal” with her? If he is a true N, it would be impossible for him to show her real depth or feelings, wouldn’t it? Or maybe she is not capable of seeing beneath his veneer and I am not implying that you were, too)?I think any of us can pretty much spot it when feelings are lacking or shallow, that is why we are here on this blog.

Anyway, I don’t have any deep thoughts today. It is Monday and I am quite tired. About avoiding that parking lot…the problem is that I live in a pretty small area. I needed to go to this one store for supplies for the picnic and I had a strange feeling about it, and I was right. In general, I avoid that shopping complex because I know he spends all his money at the Whole Foods there (once told me he spends $1,000/month on food!!).

I hate feeling like a hostage in my own area, but I know you are completely right and for now, I just need to continue to lay low. I have a suspicion he is still sort of looking for me since this morning I heard his car (unmistakable-not too many Maseratis out at that time) in the darkness of the early morning, going an out-of-the-way route to the gym at 4:35 am as I was running. It had an almost angry sound as he accelerated, which I surmised was frustration at not seeing me in my usual spot. Paranoid? Maybe. But also logical. Running into me is the only way he will be able to get to me since I have cut off all other avenues of contact.

What a way to live life. It is only temporary, though, and when I get over this hump, it will be worth it.

OK, time to get back to work and to my daughter who has been texting me off the wall. She is home making tres leches cake and has lots of questions along the way. What fun, though! I will miss it when she is gone!!

One last thing-Phil, I laughed and laughed as I was being tortured on my run this morning, picturing a coupling of our two exNs!! What a perfect match!! I debated whether they would just completely hit it off, or whether they need to know the other person cares for them, so it wouldn’t work. But they are both such good actors, they would just fake it until they got what they wanted, then go off..perfect for them both!

Not sure on that one. I think the N gets a certain amount of satisfaction and/or NS just knowing they have a poor victim on the hook who sees the world in them. By the same token, I’ve always read that once they see you love them, it turns them way off of you because they think you are stupid for loving them.

At any rate, what a comical match that would be. The only problem is that they’d probably end up killing one or the other in bed as they stepped into more and more perverse territory and just pushed it to the max. I think of that auto-erotica we learned about in med school where they use wires hooked up to the outlet. Maybe they would just do each other in at the same time and that would be that. Enough said.

I think I know the school of which you speak. I do have hope for the next generation as they’re way more open to diversity in all areas. There’s a reason that Whole Foods is called Whole Paycheck. LOL
As for the N being different with another person. Isn’t that what we all want to know? What is that person doing/or giving that we didn’t. How did they earn this lucky spot while I got discarded?
Most likely it’s because she has lower self esteem and is willing to accept crumbs or turn a blind eye. People who’ve had a close encounter with a narcissist seem to by haunted most at the prospect that the N will find “happiness” with another. They want to believe that THEY were the special one and the N should have recognized this. Four years? This person has already been D&D’d and is just hanging around while the N secures more supply and gives them crumbs.
Hey, if I want to meet up with you, I know where to park! LOL Jan

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258. Lesley - September 10, 2012

Trapped,
To answer your question regarding how my ex treated me and why it ended. I did not stay with my ex after everything came to light and everything came to light in what can only be described as ‘a perfect storm.’I confronted a few days after I had definite proof and was discarded a week later. I had left him after the confrontation.
His behaviour had become increasingly denigrating or there were extreme emotional ‘Alps’ of idealising behaviour and then denigration.
However…he idealised me perhaps more than any other woman since his wife. Others commented on this frequently too. This did not make him faithful nor did it make him morally conscious of the effect such behaviour would have on me.
I have an opinion of this… I believe that for a time I was a bridge between his total idealised woman and his temporary supply/women he saw as promiscuous or loose.Somehow,and I am at a loss to explain why,who knows what synapses were firing in the Narc brain at the time..he looked at me and saw both?
All the stuff we’ve discussed that comes with a Narc happened,the lies,the gaslighting..the mind games etc. Yet he was extremely possessive of me… I was important narc supply.
His wife was a Scandinavian woman from a strong Lutheran family who had led a sheltered life.He must have been unfaithful to her hundreds of times. He liked her image as in a portrait but did not enjoy sex with her.
He was very into having sex with me and although he was unfaithful when opportunity arose…he possibly sought it less with me than with others?He was also pretty careful that I did not find out. With his other women…he didn’t much care if they found out?
Also I matched him intellectually,he liked to debate or go to the theatre etc. I suited him for this. I say suit because it was simply like a car suiting him or a painting suiting a room?It was an inconvenience for him,an extreme inconvenience for him when our relationship ended. His preference would have been to keep me,in the dark,continuing to denigrate and idealise for a while longer….
I scuppered that by confronting and hauling off the mask, I have to say personally that I would not remain in a relationship with anyone when I found out they had been serially unfaithful.That’s my boundaries..Narc or no Narc?
For me,anyone who identifies someone as a Narc and then stays with them,despite denigration,infidelity etc or goes back into the flames…needs to look to themselves first of all.
This person is not being ‘controlled’ or abused by a Narc they are handing control over to the Narc and actually inviting abuse?That’s a disorder in itself?
Hope this sheds a bit of light?
Les

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259. Lesley - September 11, 2012

Couldn’t resist posting this gravatar…after 5 hr long match Andy Murray has just won the U.S Open! His first Grand Slam….!

Les

I just saw on the internet that he won. My first thought was of YOU! Worth staying up late for this! Jan

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phil835 - September 11, 2012

HI Les,
Congratulations to Andy Murray! I think it’s a VERY LONG TIME since a Brit won any Grand slam in tennis.)))
In answer to Jan yes, it would be a bit like an astronomer missing Haleys comet then waiting for next time it happens! 😉

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lesley - September 11, 2012

Al Reet Phil,
There’s nowt to be gained by gettin al mardy aboot the Scots lad!
( I hope you appreciate my attempt at your dialect, I wanted to be fully certain you understand the next bit…)..
We will indeed have to wait until the next Haley’s comet crosses the sky’s before an Englishman brings home the next US Open cup….however Andy will do it for Scotland again next
year…. Oops sorry Britain!(LOL)

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260. renetia - September 11, 2012

Fantastic read. Looking forward to more of your publications. May I ask how you got rid of Joe for good? As I understand N’s keep on coming back?

Not all N’s do. They usually fall into two camps. There are those who keep coming back to extract supply just to prove to themselves that they can still “have” you. It’s an ego boost for them. How can you be mad at them? They didn’t do anything wrong? They’ll continue to do this while seeing others as you’re on the back burner.
Then there are those who are mortally wounded when found out. In Joe’s case, I just told him he was a N and proceeded to tell him that I and everyone else could see through his BS. It was like watching a vampire melt in the sunlight. He cut off all ties with anyone we knew mutually for fear that I’d told them also.
If you have a N who’s like gum stuck to your shoe, they still sense that you’re open to their return. They thrive on attention and even negative attention will keep them believing you still care. If your respond to a text with “Get lost!” what matters to the N is that you responded. 🙂
When you stop shining the light on them, they scuttle away in the darkness. 🙂 Jan

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261. phil835 - September 11, 2012

HI Jan,

Beautifully put. I managed to inflict a similar Narcissistic injury in exactly the same way.Give them examples of people who know them who can see through their BS. Tell them the real opinions which others have of them in their wider audience, people who the Narc thought they had hoodwinked or impressed but hadn’t?
If you have inflicted a Narcissistic injury, the injury is only temporary though. A Narc may retreat for a while, as they lick their wounds and repair their false ego back to its former grandiosity. If they have a die hard retinue of incurable followers /sycophants (codependant types or enablers). Or anyone who will validate the Narc and bolster their false ego and false reality? Then the Narc will take solace in this company until they are ready to go back out into the world. Then they will set out to increase ttheir Narcissistic space once more. This is lifeblood for a Narc remember, as they can’t remain static or rely on the same NS for long, however reliable it may be!

A good Narcissistic injury is hard to craft. I wouldn’t attempt doing so unless you really know what you’re doing? And even if it works it’s affects are only temporary? Ask yourself if ridding the Narc from your life is your ‘real aim’ before embarking on trying to inflict a Narcissistic injury? A Narc has so many ways of turning Negative into positive supply. Attention of any type is more desirable than being ignored! And even being able to rally their closes allies to their aid, offering the Narc sympathy and support/attention is something of a positive spin off for them.

To get shut of them, just ignore them, Period! Phil

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phil835 - September 11, 2012

p.s. If you are going to attempt a Narc injury (which I don’t recommend as there are so many ways for it to backfire), I think timing is crucial !
Over the last few days I have been tempted to make a Narcissistic Injury (as my ex N has being ‘poking the nest’ and trying to get a rise out of me as some of you know)
A Narcissist is a coward at heart, they’ll happily prod a lion in its cage with a long stick. That’s one of the reasons why I didn’t respond to my N’s poking. Instincts tell me that she probably has enough fallback NS at the moment, and can happily prod a sleeping animal in a cage without consequence! 😉
If I do decide to go on the offensive with a Narc injury, I’ll play the Narc at her own game. If you go into battle, make sure the timing and the conditions favour you and not the Narc. They prey on the weak and the defenseless, they cause their harm to people less likely to fight back. If you do attack them, make sure you pay them back with some of their own medicine and kick them when they’re down also! And that probably means waiting until they are suffering Narcisstic injury or an unexpected crisis loss of NS. This doesn’t happen often though, as the Narc is usually quite careful to ensure follow on and back up Narcisstic supply, they are excellent logistical planners. So biding your time is a bit like waiting for a Brit to win a Grand slam tennis match? 😉 It does happen but not very often. Phil

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262. trapped no more! - September 11, 2012

Well put, Phil. As I’ve written in the past, I sent my exN e-mails detailing his pathology and absolutely slamming his moral values. As I pushed the send button, I would think to myself “There. That will do it. I’ll never hear from him again.” I’d call my friends and tell them (or even share the e-mail) what I’d said. “Don’t worry, he is out of my life now.”

“Don’t count on it,” they’d say, ‘He will call.” And they were always right. What they kept stressing to me, and what I eventually figured out was that I was the one who needed the resolve to simply ignore the calls and walk away because he never would, no matter what. And he knew I was very weak and vulnerable. He knew just the right words to say, when to say them, and how to get to me. He knew that after a certain period of famine, I would come back. (Come back to WHAT, I know wonder???). But I was convinced my words could keep him away, as they would anyone with half a brain. They were powerful e-mails, the kind that would easily send a knife straight into a “regular” person.

Not so. He was the gum that kept getting stuck to my shoe. Either no response for a few days, followed by a phone call as if nothing had ever happened, or possibly a week of silence, followed by an inquiry as to what could possibly be wrong with me for sending such an e-mail. “Do you enjoy doing that? It can’t feel good.” He would say, as if I were some sadist.

At first, I would just stare at him and think “I didn’t just hear this. Whatever I wrote went completely over his head.” In a way, it probably did go over his head, or at least through it. I think he would read those words and think I was having a skewed perception of reality. Or if I did ever hit his core, I think he has such swift and strong defense mechanisms that he was able to quickly push any of this out of his consciousness. “Don’t worry, Mr. N #2 (or 3, or 4, or whatever) will step in and save the day from that hurt.”

And that’s why they can keep coming back…until we take a stand and shut them out completely.

Lesley, here I go about to write something which will make you despise me for staying in that situation. When you talked about how your N was very careful to keep his secrets, I can tell you this one was no different. He went to great lengths to reassure her things were OK. Here is the worst of it-he texted her when he was with me, sexually. When I figured out he was doing this, I was almost nauseous. I couldn’t get that image out of my head of her at home or wherever she was, receiving a text from him, reassuring her “all is well” when, in fact, he was naked with another woman. This was the end of it for me.

There was a lot of denial on my part. A lot of “hope” that he was really in love with me after all, that I was truly the one. This was all I can say as for why I would hang in there. There was a lot of deception and always a very negative feeling about every bit of it. There was a starvation component after being in a loveless marriage for 20 years and finally getting attention (as you all know how they can really shower the attention).

But there is absolutely no excuse I have for participating in that situation and I am very ashamed of it. It goes against every shred of who I am. I blame him for sucking me into it, but I also am ashamed of myself for participating and falling for his charades. The only explanation I have is from what I’ve read-that if you hang around a N long enough, they start to shape you into who they are. This is a very scary thought.

That being said, I can’t kick myself because it was a very negative phase in my life. It was like I had blinders on. I can’t even begin to explain how I was so completely not at all in a state of reality. Like you, Lesley, I would normally never, ever, give anyone the time of day if they were even a tiny shade of what this man is. In the same way that I was completely lost as to who he was, I am dumbfounded that I ever saw anything in him. It was as though he had my hypnotized. The only lucid moments were the times of D&D, but he quickly smoothed those over.

All I can do is hope that through it all I’ve gained a certain amount of strength and self-esteem.

So please forgive me for admitting this to you. It still makes me feel sick to my stomach to think of it and to realize that she still is with him while he is doing the same.

I agree with you that the only person who would stick with a N, knowing who they are, has serious issues. I admit I certainly do, although I am working with all my strength to recognize them and improve. I have the world going for me: successful professional, philanthropist, two great kids, have been told I am gorgeous, blah, blah, blah. I am not writing this to sound like a N, I am just putting it in print because these are things I do not see in myself, which is what landed me in the clutches of the N.

At this point in our lives, no matter how we ended up with the N, we all need to see our own strengths and highlight them. This is part of the medicine we need to dissolve their influence from our souls. We can diminish them as people and scoff at them, but in the end, it is how we feel about ourselves that will lift us up above and beyond their scope. They can’t touch us when we are consistently out of their reach-physically as well as mentally.

Again, I was not at all implying that any of you are able to identify with my situation. I admitted to a very big fault here in this blog but I see recognition and honesty as a way to move on. Hopefully?

That’s it from here.

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263. lesley - September 11, 2012

Hey All,great points..
Re Narc Injury,mine was of the fatal kind I believe.We both knew the game was up..when I confronted,but still strangely awful to get the discard phonecall the week later delivered in a monotone voice.
I’m not sure I would ever give the time or thought again to crafting a Narc injury.The best revenge is a happy life…and if you still wish to injure,no reaction affects the worst.
Its like there is no longer a face in the mirror for them.
Trapped. I do not despise you for staying in the situation,not at all… I can empathise with the triggers which brought you there. Your perception of the moonlit walks and talks would naturally be a growing intimacy…but he was using your vulnerability and shared confidences to obtain more NS?
I’m glad for you that when he text the other woman while you were in bed with him-you ended it. He denigrated you both(in the same moment..unbelievable?) by doing this.It makes me sick to think how powerful this would make a somatic Narc feel…
There is some stuff around,which helped me comprehend what was in my mind when I endured the relationship. if you check the link to BR(baggage reclaim)on the left,you’ll see that there are articles..do a search..on’When you feel you are the exception to his rule?’ I suffered badly from this, I thought I was ‘the one’ who would save him from himself for a while.That our love was different or I believed him when he said’ I was the love of his life etc etc’
This was frankly ego-inverted behaviour on my part…how can anyone change a Narc?Who the hell am I to have tried?I was contending with my own ego to think I could have had control over this kind of personality disorder. Letting go of this control is freeing.
As an aside, I found out last night what he has been saying about me…and it is a masterstroke in deceit.
I am not going to be labelled angry or cold,selfish or unstable or any of the labels he gave to previous partners.
I am,alas…afraid of ‘meaningful commitment’and whilst he was steadfastly building our relationship…I would not move in, I was like a ‘frightened horse’ and will always remain’the one who got away’…He has had an’appalling’ Summer,filled with dark depression and broken dreams’
There is of course no mention of the repeated proven infidelities nor even that during this ‘appalling’ Summer he apparently went on a month’s tour of Eastern Europes sex tourist hotspots!!(LOL)
It’s a masterstroke because he will appear as a tragic figure to the next woman,nursing a broken heart and play on the pity dynamic.
Poor poor woman. My heart goes out to her whoever she is….
Hearing it didn’t affect me as much as I thought it would…onwards!

Les

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Donna - September 15, 2012

To all my friends, I have been away for several days because my modem died. It’s a little scary how much we can depend on the internet.

It’s been over 10 days since my last face to face encounter with my exn friend and I am feeling very well. The blank look in his eyes just reconfirms that it’s completely over between the two of us. I truely don’t expect to hear from him every again. If going to see him was NS then I accept that, however I felt that I took my personal power back by offering him “Peace”. I can’t even imagine what he has been saying about me, because I just don’t care. I know the truth!!!

Over these last few months I have grieved the lost of the friendship and I am not angry anymore. Les, as you said, forgiveness is key to moving on. (Ourselves and them as well). I am wishing everyone a pleasant Fall season. Love and Peace to All, Donna

Donna,
I’m so glad I reread your message because originally I thought your mother died! Yes, the internet has become a lifeline for so many, so the loss of a modem is also grieve-worthy. 🙂

It’s good to hear you say that you don’t even care what he might be saying about you, because most likely, he’s not even thinking or talking about you. That blank look in their eyes tells you all you need to know. You own inner peace is PRICELESS. Please send some fall weather west won’t you. It’s been over 100 for several days. It was 86 degrees inside my classroom on Friday. What I wouldn’t give for a crisp autumn day!
Peace. Jan

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264. phil835 - September 11, 2012

Hi Trapped/

Such brilliant posts with so many great points!

First off Les, couldn’t help but smile at your Narc masquerading as a victim with a broken heart. It’s a real shame that I will never view victimhood in the same way after my Narc attack. When sadly, there are genuine victims like everyone here on this blog!
My narc was cloaked in either victimhood, or as a rescuer. For anyone who isn’t familiar I recommend reading Kapman’s drama triangle for an idea of these concepts. I would say my Narc was the biggest Persecutor there is, whilst always avoiding that tag and hiding in the other two!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle

Reading your posts Trapped I can only guess at how powefully written your e-mails to your N must have been? And then afterwards you perfectly sum up the incredulity we probably all feel, at the lack of effect these strongly worded indictments have on a Narc? It’s as though they are wearing teflon coated kevlar? I would find the remarks you made very cutting indeed, the Narc just isn’t interested though. It smacks of them having values which are very different from the rest of us, if any values at all apart from self interest?
One thing I was thinking about was the childhood game of Scissors, paper, stone. The reason I was thinking about it, was how to know what hurts a Narcissist? You can’t treat them as like minded people having similar values to your own. Scissors might cut paper, but they bounce of a Narcissist’s stone with no effect whatsoever!
So as you scream about how selfish, thoughtless, egotistical, manipulative, untrustworthy, disloyal, shallow, fickle, false or whatever other indictments you have about the Narc?
These may be at odds with your own core values and principles, but not the narc’s!
If I wanted to insult my N and make the injury really hurt, rather than make the profound indictments of character I wanted to, I would instead resort to calling her a ‘hideously pathetic old skank, overweight, and no longer attractive or desirable to the men whose attention she desperately craves’
And I’m ashamed to say that the above insults would hurt her far more than any indictment of character. It’s not in my nature to make such remarks, as my core values are concerned about a person’s worth in terms of their character, rather than their physical appearance. For a Narcissist everything is about show though, it’s appearances and the superficial which are of paramount importance for them, as we probably all know! They are heedless in their pursuit of supply, whether or not you showed them the genuine side of humanity is really besides the point for a Narc. It won’t affect their pursuit for as many cheap, quick or plentiful fixes as they can get, however they obtain them! Or whatever the consequences!

Trapped congratulations on your open and self critical anaylsis of your own condition. I was toying with the idea of posting something similar previously after I was labeled normal, because I felt a bit embarrassed! 😉
For those of you who aren’t aware, my N hijacked the term normal for herself, even though she is anything but normal. And for what difference being normal makes, the one thing that distinguishes everyone on this blog from a Narc, is that we can all feel empathy for others and don’t deliberately act in thoughtless or selfish ways at another’s expense.
So what with my N having polluted the description of ‘normal’ for me, I’m going to steer away from that term. I want to talk something about how I became a victim. I’ve never claimed to be normal, my N hijacked the term as if it perfectly described her! 😀 What a laugh. Anyway, I’ve always being open and honest about my own disorder and shortcomings as a person. Unfortunately, I didn’t realise how much this was music to a Narc’s ears. They love an opportunity to pathologize a person, if you are at ease and open with your own faults, then they will use what they think is ‘weakness’ to try and gain the upper hand.
This is the real weakness of a Narc though, for those of us who are aware of ourselves and our faults/weaknesses then what you understand of yourself, you are better able to come to terms with or conquer. The Narc will never be truly aware of their own condition and how it affects themselves, others, or reality (or lack of) in general. Every defense mechanism in the book is employed to disguise truth and reality not only from others, but especially from themselves. Generally speaking, open talking and candid truth isn’t within a narc’s capabilities, and even if it was, it’s what they’ll avoid at all costs, painful as it must be for them!

My underlying condition is a form of depression called Dysthymia, which is something I’ve had for so long (as long as I can remember) that it’s more like the background noise to my life. The best analogy I have for it is this: I grew up next to a rail track and marshalling yard. I can listen all night to the sound of trains being shunted, screeching brakes, whining noises, roaring diesel engines and clanking metal! It’s quite soothing and reassuring for me, I can listen to these sounds in summer with an open window and feel quite at peace. I’m sure it would drive the rest of you mad? Yet in the countryside the sound of birds and wildlife drives me crazy if I’m trying to rest! 😀
So in a way my underlying Dysthymia is something I need to consider about myself, but it’s so much part of who I am I don’t give it much thought, I became confortable with it. The problem for me at the time of my Narc, is that I slipped in Double Depression. It’s easier to slip in Double Drepression for a Dysthymia sufferer, you sort of live with depression all the time and the Double depression creeps over you almost unnoticed. It was trigerred by various events professionally and in my family and home life.
If I’m something of a natural pessimist, then I would probably say the glass is half empty. If I was to work on myself, I could probably start to see it half full? 🙂
In my defense though, I’ll alwaays tell you exactly how much fluid there is in the glass (in an empirical way). I could express myself differently but there is no mistaking the amounts. The glass half empty is the same volume of water as the glass half full. 🙂
And this is what scares me about a Narc, the glass for a Narc is overflowing when it isn’t even a quarter full, if you know what I mean? Who can trust the opinion and reality of a Narcissist? And as they skew reality, they will do the same for those around them also.

I avoided treament and medication at the time of being around my N, basically because I was worried! If anyone has ever seen ‘Murial’s Wedding’. Think of Murial’s mum drugged up on anti=depressants while her abusive husband (Murial’s dad) cheats, abuses, denigrates, fornicates and basically gets away with murder until the poor woman kills herself! I’m sure a Narc would love a partner on anti-depressants? 😉
The other thing which put me off was the Narc herself. (I’ve done subsequent research and now know this is not be the case) But I did consider that her warped view on reality may have been drug induced? In reality her own depression in the past was just a lack of NS.
Anyway, now I’ve rid her from my life I intend to work on myself as Trapped suggests we all do. Phil

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265. lesley - September 11, 2012

Phil,
The blunt honesty of your post affected me greatly and the analogy of ‘the background noise’ fits perfectly (it seems wrong to call it a disorder?).Rather than a disorder it’s ‘You’..?
I can see how when compounded by what I would call an’exogenous’ depressive episode…that is triggered by life events or indeed life with the female narc you describe, the pack you were carrying relatively easily or at least had got used to bearing would become unbearable…the Double Depression bit?
The awful part is that a narcissist rather than help you through something like this,with no empathy…just stacks up the burden higher.They may manipulate the burden.
Some years ago I had a colleague who was a great counsellor,actually professionally. I was teaching at university at this time and my Gran died. I was in my early thirties and felt I should persevere…man up,so to speak. Conform to expectations as a professional person if you like?
Yet my Gran had brought me up-more so than my parents in many ways and much of what I enjoy in life the books,being outside,history…art etc came from her.She was a beautiful person,yet worked in a watch factory most of her life. She was the only person there who could talk about Titian and El Greco!I went everywhere with her museums,galleries and she even sneaked me into the cinema to watch French films with her a few times!
I was distraught by her death and my colleague noticed this… I always remember him saying to me when I realised I was going to have to take a few weeks off work.
‘Lesley.. if you think about the world and everything we have to face…it’s more’normal’ to have some sort of depressive reaction than to paint a smile on everyday’.
Sad is a vital part of the human condition.I wasn’t going to see her again..it was right to be sad
In this he gave me permission to be distraught and I gave in and grieved.
It’s truly amazing that you mention Karpman’s triangle as I often use it to teach family dynamics to my students and it’s a great learning tool.
I can see how you wanted to avoid medication around the Narc or indeed to find yourself in any state where you were rendered vulnerable or that she would see you this way and use it as a weapon.
I took a low dose anti-depressant for three months after my Gran’s death and again in 2009 after my car accident. I was lucky in that it got me over that hump..
Over the last 7 years or so I have continued to’Give In’..I have a resilience from childhood/my sister has this too..which means that we tended to adopt a rescuer mode with others rather than put our own needs first but I’ve worked on this and am much more honest about not coping or feeling down these days?
Your analogy about the glass half empty or half full(particularly your empirical version made me laugh!) I think if a Narc spotted water in a glass and had a thirst…they’d drink it!
I feel so much pain for you Phil- that you have this condition and then had to survive the skin searing you went through with your girlfriend…
However, if you had lived 200 years ago..you would have been called a text book melancholic romantic poet!!
It occurs to me that maybe you wouldn’t have the creativity you do with words or the depth of your thinking if you weren’t you…dysthymia and all.
Emily Bronte probably was dysthymic…just occurred to me!

Lesley

1) I’m off to google Dysthmia. I, myself, am a poster child for Prozac having been on it for 23 years. When we lived in NYC, I was so stressed out over our financial situation that I developed TMJ. I went to the top doc in NY and he said he’d never seen such a difficult case. I was a guinea pig taking Prozac, but it worked for me. At school, everyone always teases me because I tend to be always happily humming. I actually took my dosage way down over the summer just because I wanted to see if it even made a difference after so many years. I didn’t notice a big difference, but I knew once school began and I had a class full of children that I couldn’t afford to be “experimenting” with doses. Can you hear me humming?
2) My commenters are all so incredibly kind and articulate. You most likely had some teachers along the way (and Lesley’s Gran) to help pave the way.
3) Have decided to reread all of the Bronte books. There was talk today in the legendary Teacher Lounge of a new version of “Wuthering Heights” coming out. Still must rent second season of “Downton Abbey.”
4) The parent of a child in my room slipped me a copy of the book The Psychopath Test today. On the cover it says, “Engagingly Irreverent.” I’d so love to have that on my tombstone, only I plan to be scattered.
🙂
Jan

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lesley - September 12, 2012

Another wise reply Jan,you teeth grinder you!Were you diagnosed as grinding your teeth during your sleep?That’s a common cause of TMJ.All the anxiety you were feeling during the day and being brave not to show, comes out a night?
Tell your teacher’s lounge to forgo the new version of Wuthering Heights..these are always rubbish compared to the original?
The only prequel I liked(and is recognised a classic in it’s own right) is’Wild Sargasso Sea’,about Mr Rochester’s (Jane Eyre) first wife’s story( and how her madness developed.
Here’s a funny little poem I love,by an lady called Linda Paston.Definitely written for teachers….she writes deeper about long term love as well.I thought about you and your man as I read them.As follows;

Marks By Linda Paston

My husband gave me an A
for last night’s supper,
An Incomplete…for my ironing…
A B+in bed.
My son says I’m ‘Average’,
An Average Mother,but if
I put my mind to it,
I could improve.
My daughter believes in Pass/Fail
and tells me I ‘ Pass ‘. Wait till they learn..
I’m dropping out!

Please send some mental Prozac over the Atlantic,have just spent nearly two hours battling wits with 21 Sport’s Science students(Health Psychology)…and am marginally ahead.
As a reward I have now a masonry drill chipping away between my shoulder blades.Off to find some chocolate… Les

A routine visit to the dentist set it off. I found out that I clench my jaw while I sleep. I realized I was stressed when I woke up each morning and my hands were clenched fists! I was on major pain meds and THAT couldn’t go on. Prozac was relatively new, so I was put on that to see if it would help. Ten days later I was walking down the street and realized I was humming again! One interesting thing I learned about myself while undergoing biofeedback was the only time my stress level went down was when the guy talking me through this came over to talk to me. When I was talking to other people, it took me outside of myself and I wasn’t focused on the pain. Maybe this is how it works with a N. It takes another person providing supply to blunt their pain/emptiness?
Chocolate always provides that serotonin boost. 🙂 Jan

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266. Trapped no more! - September 12, 2012

Phil, very touching post. Just as an addendum, some of the most prolific and talented people in history have suffered from some form of depression: Beethoven, Van Gogh, Virginia Wolf, Sylvia Plath, Charles Dickens, Ernest Hemingway, Michelangelo, and Tennessee Williams to name a few. I wonder if being in touch with that side of the brain opens up creativity and an ability to see the world in a different light?

Unfortunately, as you said, the N is just lurking, looking for people like us to pounce on. It makes them feel superior. And as you said, they use any tiny thing they can find against you as ammunition in their D&D attacks. I once read somewhere that anything you reveal to them as part of an intimate relationship is stored in their little brains for future use. They won’t remember a thing you told them which was important to you (I love chocolate, a dumb example), but they WILL remember hurtful things which they will spew back at you at just the opportune moments.

Regarding how to “get to an N”, you are absolutely correct. That sort of approach is hard for us, though, isn’t it? It goes against our basic instincts. I, too, could totally wipe this guy by detailing his lack of genuine skills in bed. In the end, though, I am not sure how good I would feel.

Most of the sages give discourses on how giving out negative really comes back at a person. I believe it is true. As hard as it may be to swallow, I guess we have to simply wish them the best and try to move on.

Every religion or teaching preaches forgiveness. I am not at all at this stage yet, but I hope some day I will be. Once we reach that, we are truly healed.

For now, though, it helps us move on by releasing our negative thoughts in this post. I don’t look upon Jan’s site as a bashing site, but more as an educational one. By posting and reading others’ thoughts, we are helping ourselves both understand something quite foreign to our way of life and also, to understand ourselves!

The more I read here, the more I see the beautiful side of humanity in each of you!

I totally agree. I think it’s because everyone writing is doing so from the heart (and head) with clarity and the goal of throwing light on this confounding disorder. You are respectful and quick to worry that you might have sounded too harsh. You want a real conversation about difficult issues. This is the exact opposite from what it’s like to try and communicate with a N. Jan
I’m off to school. What I wouldn’t give for a crisp autumn day.

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267. lesley - September 13, 2012

Hi Trapped
Your post gave me insight last night when I was considering the types of things my ex is now saying about me and our relationship…in terms of him being the steadfast one and me finding it hard to commit?This has it’s basis in,as you say,something I told him in confidence and when I felt I could trust him implicitly.
In the Britain’s Blizzard Winter of 2010,much of Scotland had to grind to a standstil for a week or two. We can live and work in temps of minus9 but minus 23 can prove difficult.
The rails and roads stopped and folk were trapped at home deep in snow banks.Including my ex and I,during that week it ‘seemed’ to me that our feelings deepened.We ate quiet dinners and went out on long walks until the cold got to us!
I remember thinking how lucky I was and he played up to this,outlining our future together,talking of years to come.In short I was deeply in love with him.
He asked why I never married my previous partner whom I had lived with for 5 years. I trusted his interest and told him that ‘I never really felt myself when I was married’ and said that I had felt the same when I was married to my ex husband. I loved them both but didn’t feel the need for a bit of paper.Some people do..some don’t?
In total length of time,I was with these two men for eighteen years of my life?
I essentially married my ex husband because it was important to him…not particularly to me.
My ex Narc listened to all of this and just as you said…recorded it for future use. With his own bitter twist.
I have been characterised as someone he’couldn’t pin down’.A free spirit who doesn’t believe in marriage…
In reality I strongly believe in commitment and trust, I was completely faithful to my husband and partner and the diametric opposite of my ex Narc!
You are so right when you say that they only remember the bits they can use at’opportune moments’…stored on the hard drive of their brain in case they need to defend themselves or enhance their own dishonest position.
They are creatures of the future,always thinking ahead, looking over your shoulder for the next fix.
As an aside,two or three weeks after our lovely time together snowed up and ‘in love’. My ex went AWOL in Glasgow…for a few days.
During this time he caught up with an’old friend’.
I describe my feelings as’forgiveness in progress’ which will have to do for now. I cannot wholly forgive yet because of the typical example above.
I return again to sg I said before,we have to forgive ourselves for being duped by them first. I know that much of my early anger was tied to that,
Light Shine,
Les

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Trapped no more! - September 21, 2012

Lesley,

It took me this long to reply to your comment. I felt such pain reading your words, especially the beautiful description of the blizzard, the long walks, and the quiet dinners. I could totally picture all of it. We had the long walks and the quiet dinners, minus the blizzard. I never was afforded the days spent leisurely with him, however (luckily for me, in retrospect), because of my other commitments.

In any case, I could feel your pain. I also could imagine how my ex-N’s girlfriend will eventually feel if she finally does wake up and begin to face reality, as I am sure she gets all the same treatments you used to.

I still have a very strong part of me that wants to send her a letter in the mail, anonymously (forget e-mail since nowadays people trace IP addresses), and tell her things that no one could possibly know unless they were with him…but this is only to spite him, I am sure, because she is already so deeply involved that no matter what happens at this point, she will be hurt.

Likely, it is only a matter of time before she does confront reality. The only fear I have is that she moves with her daughter (who is 13 and at a bad age for such things) to my area (she is selling the family house as part of the separation) and wants to be closer to him. Big mistake.

He says she is only moving here for the school district, which is one of the top in the state. He admits, however, that her daughter is very “street wise” (i.e., not into school or academics at all). I thought to myself “no wonder” when he had told me that he sleeps over at her place all the time.

Maybe I am just a conservative old bitch, but to me, a young teen who is enduring a break up of her family and the selling of her home does not need some slime bag guy sleeping over with her mom, rocking the bed all night, and likely saying stupid things to her. It would be the very last thing I would ever do to my children.

Even if I ever do meet a decent guy, he will not become part of my family until they are emotionally ready to handle this (what, when they are 50?). I would NEVER have a male sleep over when my daughter was present. Never. It is a mute point now that she is away to college, but this is the way I feel. It is just too hurtful to them. They are not 20 something roommates. They are our sensitive young children.

Unfortunately, I told him, it is more than that (the school district), for sure. He, of course, could care less, and has not even the least pang of guilt over it. This is one of the reasons I want to do the letter. If it were me in that situation, I would want to know, as much as it hurt.

I am sure, in retrospect, as much as the revelation hurt you, now you are happy to have found out the truth.

I don’t know exactly what the point is of my blabber here tonight. I guess it is just that you’ve completely opened my eyes to the other side of the equation-the one I was jealous of for so long. You’ve shown me that I had nothing to be jealous of. We both feel hurt. We both feel betrayed and used. We are both healing.

As I was driving home from work tonight, I was wondering whether or not I can ever trust another man again. I was wondering if I’ll ever feel for another man the way I felt for him. I was envisioning long, lonely years of solitude ahead of me. But I guess, I thought with a sigh, even that is better than dealing with the lies, the deceit, and the horrible feelings that go with a relationship with a N.

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Lesley - September 21, 2012

Hi TNM,
I appreciated your words more than you know…I feel as if I’m contending with a few walls at moment with regard to my ex.In fact it’s like a veritable assault course.
There is no difference between us,despite being categorised in different ways,neither of us was treated well,both of us were used and betrayed….sadly a common theme.You definitely have nothing to be jealous of.
During this time in snowy Scotland I believe I was idealised possibly to the full extent of his capabilities.I would cook a risotto and when we sat down to eat he would say’ I cannot eat for looking at you’ or he would get up from the computer and come to where I was sitting and put his arms around me and say’ I can’t believe I found you’ Just like the’horrid’ flashbacks these’flashbacks of loving moments’ have been equally hard to get rid of.Like you,because of this(and a few other external things)at moment…my trust is shot.
I have a deep mistrust of anyone who claims to be verbally one thing and then lets me down by their actions?Very hard to work through but I’m trying? To give into this is to become like a Narc…so I will continue to be open?
I think when Narcs idealise they are compelled to tear it down…they just feel too vulnerable.They love and despise you in the same actual moment.
I agree with you about not letting a narc or anyone for that matter meet your kids/family in the early days. It’s a fact that my son who is 22 thought I was a Nun until a little while ago!
I would never have slept with anyone whilst my child was in the same house…how confusing would that be?I was in a long term relationship after my divorce but my partner met my son gradually and they really bonded.They still keep in touch…
Wow… I feel for that teenage girl with your ex parading about the family home.That’s a recipe for emotional disaster. His girlfriend sounds like she’s in a place where if the penny dropped…her whole psyche,reason for existing would follow. She sounds almost delusional? Poor poor woman..
My reactions to other men are not within the ‘normal’ range at moment.My friends tell me that I am not behaving like me?
I responded politely to my date to tell him I was not interested?
I asked my friend Neil and Nicky that if we went out to a local pub I would prefer it if there were not other guys there?(They often catch up with colleagues etc there)…I feel like I am an eleven year old when I receive a compliment particularly about my appearance…I do not trust it? I look off into the distance..
In short I could not bear to experience the pain I went through again. I feel,to use the analogy of frozen Scotland…that I am thawing very slowly…so I am with you on that.What a loss of spirit though….
The irony is that my ex labelled me’a frightened horse’…I wasn’t before the relationship… but he has made me into one. For a time.
Trapped no more…if I was a flower I would be an edelweiss..this is what I hope for.They begin to grow again after the lowest temperatures and appear through the snow!
ps. Noticed that Teacher in Korea had addressed a comment to you? Light Shine Les

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268. Lawrence - September 15, 2012

Hi Everyone,
Just have to say what a godsend this site is for me. Although I haven’t been personally affected by Narcissistic behaviour a family member has and is coping with the fallout at moment.
Les, I am also in Britain and read your comment with great interest.
My relative was also wondering what her ex partner had been saying about her but has now been able to let it go…we talk often and some of the things she relates to me I cannot quite comprehend.
They are indeed a different breed.But I don’t think you want them
to multiply.
Jan, I love your other articles too and was laughing about the cockroaches ,I have field mice at the moment and am trying to humanely trap them! We have been out 123 times to release a mouse.It’s the same damn mouse I think. I live in the countryside so it comes with the territory.
A bit about me, I am a guy mid forties with an interest in all things topical,about the mind,political and like you Jan, educational. I worked in mental health for many years…please keep up the good work.
Les,just wanted to ask where is your pic on site from,have keen
interest in geology…is it Cyprus?
Been listening in a while and love the debates,will continue to chip in!
Laurie

Having a N in the family or married to a family member can totally upend any holiday gathering or your very relationship what that person and everyone else to boot. Especially if no one understands it’s Narcissism that they’re dealing with. Glad to hear you’re lending an ear, but as you say, some of the things you’re hearing can be unsettling and downright crazy making.
Haha. I find that working in education, at least at my school, requires a massive knowledge of mental health issues. 🙂 We actually have a school-based mental health site on campus. Oh, the things I’ve seen…
I had to laugh at you releasing the mouse as this sounds exactly like what I would do. When we were lived in New York City, my husband caught a mouse in a glue trap. Feeling bad, he carried it to the park, but broke my best sewing scissors trying to cut it out of the glue! You might want to read my post “Rats!” Turns out I had a rat-support network posing as my family who were feeding the invader. Glad you popped in and looking forward to future comments. Jan

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269. Donna - September 17, 2012

Jan, I just wanted to Thank You for your reply I saved it so I can see it again if I need some reenforcement. I am still doing OK, spent half of today with my son and granddauthers. Two days off from work to do my thing… I am glad to still be…….

Ahhh! That’s good to hear Donna. Two days off is sounding really good right now. 🙂 Enjoy! Jan

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270. Teacher in Korea - September 18, 2012

Jan,

I came across your blog by Googling “Narcissistic dating/bf/relationship (can’t remember which one)” and am so glad i did because after spending over 2 days reading each article and comments to each article about Narcissism, I’m happy to say that it has helped me to immediately go No Contact (NC) with my N.

A little brief intro about myself. I’m a Vietnamese-American woman currently living in S. Korea as an English teacher. I moved here 3 months ago so I’m very new to this country. I don’t know the customs, language or how men/relationships operate here in S. Korea.

2 months ago, I joined a language exchange website in order to make Korean friends, hoping to learn the language in the process. Out of the many messages that I got, one stood out in particular because he was a Korean man that wrote and spoke English very well. This was the start of how I met my N.

From the first in person meeting with my N, I felt very comfortable and familiar with him. We seemed to have so much in common and he appeared to be incredibly caring and sweet. He took me out to a nice dinner, we went for coffee afterward and he walked me to my apartment. He was incredibly attentive and caring. After dropping me off, I got an instant message on an instant messaging program we both used and he sounded very eager and enthusiastic to see me again. Two days later, we had our second date and by the end of the night, he told me that he loved me. I was quite taken aback and surprised and I hate to admit, it’d been so long (7 years) since I’ve heard those words that I reveled in it, basking in all its glory. Although small warning bells did go off, I pushed them aside because I’ve heard from other friends living in Korea for a while told me that Korean men are typically quick to say “i love you”. From our second date on, we were completely inseparable.

I was in a whirlwind romance with him. He completely swept me off my feet and by the 4th date, I told friends and family from back home to prepare to come to Korea for my wedding! That was how much “in love” I was with my N. In hindsight, this “idealization phase” is very typical of N to be Mr. Wonderful/Charming.

Everything continued being wonderful for 2 months until his work demands started increasing and he was now working Mon-Sunday (so he claimed). His daily sweet text msgs and night phone calls ceased. I started seeing him less and less. I started getting more and more upset with him as to why he couldn’t send me texts anymore just asking how I’m doing and I pestered him about when was the next time we’d be able to see each other. During this decrease in communication phase, the little times that we spoke, our conversations were getting more bizarre. He would throw in random words that had nothing to do with our current conversation or he would steer the conversation away completely from whatever I was talking about. In hindsight, I felt that this phase was the slow transition to the D&D phase.

My last telephone conversation with him lasted 4 minutes with the end result of him simply stating “I’m sorry baby, there’s nothing I can do.” and CLICK. He hung up the phone. A few minutes after he hung up, I sent him long messages on the instant messaging program, pleading with him to call me so we can talk things out. He ignored my messages and never called me back. Two days after this phone conversation, I still hadn’t heard from him and was getting frantic, worried something had happened to him, I sent him a text msg pleading with him to let me know he’s ok. An hour later, I get a “yeah, I’m ok. Just busy with work and have no time for anything else other than work and little sleep.” He never apologized for worrying me. Never asked how I was doing. Never brought up the issues we were having.

The next morning, I get on the instant messaging program to see that he had updated his profile picture on the instant messaging program. In addition, he had uploaded a pic that someone had taken of him, sitting in a very romantic restaurant setting, looking at his phone. It was obviously clear that whoever took his pic was a woman because no male friend would take such a pic in that manner. Angry, I shot off 2 long text messages to him calmly explaining what I had seen and asking why if he had time to update his pictures, he didn’t have time to msg me to ask how I’m doing. He never responded to any of my texts. I tried calling, he didn’t pick up the phone. Little did I know, I’ve already been D&D.

It’s been 4 days now since I last heard from my N and I’m now in recovery mode after having been D&D. I thank God that I was in a “relationship” with this monster for only 2 months. And in those 2 months, I was fortunate that he treated me amazingly well and I hadn’t been around long enough for the rage, belittling and verbal abuse to kick in yet. In my last few phone conversations with my N, I noted that the belittling was starting to show through but back then, I chose to push them aside because it didn’t occur to me that he’s an N.

After reading every single article and comments left on this blog, my N is like a replica of everyone else’s. He constantly boasted about his family’s money and status. He constantly bragged about the so-called power he had at his work position. Anything anyone else can do, he can do better. Anything anyone knows how to do, he knows how to do it better. He belittled wait staff and often made fun of complete strangers fashion or simply found bad things to say about complete strangers. In hindsight, he slowly was starting to put me down for my choice in “cheap clothing” because I often liked to shop at bargain stores. He would brag that his underwear costs twice as much as my shirt. I know most readers are thinking how could I stay with someone so horrible but the problem with N is that they put others down in such a crafty, sneaky way in the idealization phase that you are quick to dismiss it.

It was after the D&D and silent treatment that it occurred to me that my ex was an N and I googled it. You would think for someone who has already dated 2 N’s previously that I would know better. But being new to a foreign country, I was vulnerable and my guard was down because the N was so incredibly charming.

I’m sorry that this comment is incredibly long but I wanted to share my story. It’s quite cathartic to be able to put it into words. I am so blessed that I was with this N for only 2 months. I hope and pray for everyone else that is still stuck with their N. I have since blocked my ex N from all modes of communication. I vow to keep NC.

It’s easy to feel overwhelmed and a bit adrift in a foreign country and culture. The N I wrote about was from another culture, and I originally chalked up much of his bad/odd behavior due to cultural differences. You were obviously vulnerable and he swooped in and turned on the charm. Yes, always beware of anyone who proclaims their love after such a short time. And yes, Ns all seem to be cut from the same cloth. This man’s MO sounds so similar to so many others (but you already know this from reading the comments). It’s all so confusing to one minute have someone pursuing you and then they’re “too busy” to reply to a message. The hardest part for me was having people who’d known the N for some time tell me, “Jan, you were SO taken.” I feel for you. No Contact is the only way to go.
So many of my students come from Korea as there’s a seminary near my school where many of their fathers are studying to be pastors. I’m amazed at how those who learned English in Korea are often ahead of native-born English speakers! Yours is an important job. I’m so sorry your introduction to a new country and culture was tainted by this emotional vampire, but they prowl the streets of every country on Earth.
Please check back as to how you’re doing. Always, Jan

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Teacher in Korea - September 18, 2012

Thanks for the quick reply, Jan. I thoroughly enjoy my job here as an English teacher and the students are amazing! Some speak English so well that it made me think they’ve lived abroad before but I come to find out they learned their English from school and watching American TV programming.

I think what makes me sad the most is knowing that none of the feelings the N professed to me were real and our relationship was never real. I also feel a bit foolish in front of family and friends for having told them about my “amazing/wonderful Korean boyfriend”. It’s embarrassing having to break the news to all of them that this relationship is now over.

It IS hard to accept that you were “played,” but Ns do this over and over again with zero empathy for their victims. Everyone who comments has experienced the exact same feelings as you are feeling now. How could I have been so foolish? How could this have meant nothing to him?
Don’t worry about family and friends (I know, easy for me to say) as if they really care about you, you can tell them that he wasn’t the man he presented himself as. You saw through him and have already moved on. Then keep moving and don’t look back. 🙂 Jan

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271. lesley - September 18, 2012

Hi Teacher,
What an awful situation for you and that your early experiences in a foreign country should be tainted by such a guy..
I bet you’re thinking ‘How could he have said such things to me and not meant them’…
I felt and to a certain extent feel this way too about my Narc.
It’s almost like they actually believe their own BS when they are in the Idealisation phase of you.The compliments sound real because for a short time you have become their ideal woman…but with a Narc this never lasts.They build things up only to have to tear them down through their own internal fears.
It would be safer for your guy to replenish Narc supply than get fully into a relationship with you.It’s not about you…he has no empathy it’s about him and his comfort zone at all times.
If you’ve read all the posts then you’ll know that I am really behind doing the work on yourself when it comes to relationship patterns…and you say that this is not the first time you’ve been
‘Narked’.
It may be useful,although I’m sure you are doing this already to reflect on why you fell for these guys.It can be because your own self esteem wasn’t at it’s highest or because the highs and lows of a cluster B relationship remind you of earlier relationship patterns even from childhood?
Phil, a regular commenter here posted earlier in this thread with a link to Karpman’s Drama triangle@Post 264 and this was useful for me to look at too when I experienced the end of my own relationship. I often use this with my own students.
Wishing you Peace for the future and continued no contact.
Light Shine Les

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Teacher in Korea - September 18, 2012

Thanks Lesley for the kind words and encouragement. I think I easily fell for this N because he saw me as easy prey: vulnerable person, new to a foreign country and perhaps I gave off a vibe that I was desperate for love and affection. This latter part I think is truest because I’m 36, never been married and have been single for 2 years now. On top of this, I’d gone through a string of horrible short-term relationships with commitment-phobic men prior to coming to Korea. The fact that the N wanted to “commit” right away to me was such a vast difference to what I was used to so I fell for him right away. I guess I was ripe to be played by an N.

Now that I’ve learned my vulnerabilities, I am smarter and more prepared for my next relationship. I’m completely fortunate that unlike many victims of Ns, I managed to escape almost unscathed because he D&D me before the rage and verbal abuse started. And during the 2 months that I was with him, I was in the idealization phase so he treated me very, very well.

I will read that article you’ve recommended Lesley and continue to work on NC and moving forward with my life. On a side note, I don’t know why but I keep having this gut, eerie feeling that one of these days in the future; he’s going to show up at my apartment building and try to win me over again after he’s bored with his latest victim. I hate the fact that he knows where I live. I’ve blocked him from all modes of phone communication (instant messaging/text/calls) so I’m afraid it’d enrage him enough to show up at my door. Everyday that I get home, I’m always paranoid, looking around for his car and as I get up to my floor, I always expect to see him there waiting for me.

If my gut instinct comes to fruition, should I simply tell him to leave me alone and threaten to call the police? Or should I pretend to be nice so that he’d listen to me better and leave? I’m afraid to enrage him if I turn on him and he’d do something to me and I’ve no one to help me since I live alone. As I type this, it occurred to me that there are CCTV on all floors of my apartment building. I just hope and pray that because of this, he’d know better than to try anything violent.

I’m just wondering if it’s in the Ns nature to get angry if he attempts a second curtain call and his NS outright rejects his attempt?

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272. lesley - September 18, 2012

Hi,
It’s horrible that he has you afraid like this.However, most Narcs are cowards and will leave you alone if they know there is no Narcissistic supply.He wouldn’t want too much trouble or the police involved I’m guessing. Ignoring them completely is the way…this may intrigue them for a little while but it will soon become a hassle for them and they’ll move on. I would clearly tell him to leave you alone and leave it at that.
They thrive on drama and reaction,even a negative response gives them NS.’Trapped No More’ is going through this as well within these posts and was where you are a short time ago…No Contact is the definite way forward and is working for her like a charm against evil…
I’m hoping she picks this up and comments?
My situation is different in that I was with my Narc for a couple of years and I finally confronted him…he discarded after that.
The fact that he wanted you to commit right away is a huge red flag.
But I hear you on that…the first time I fell out with my ex was over his mood swinging…(about 5 months into the relationship)and I decided to leave our date early. His reaction was to ask me to marry him!!
They fear abandonment/they fear commitment…equally.
Jan is possibly best to give advice about the likelihood of Narc Rage… I didn’t experience this at least not in a violent sense. I pulled off the mask and he scarpered.
If you have a caretaker/concierge in your apartment block it may be worthwhile mentioning your situation just in case…
thinking of you Les

I’ve never experienced Narc rage, although there are those who have. Unless you’ve seen this side of him already, I doubt it will rear its ugly head. You mentioned “the silent treatment.” That’s way more common. They punish you by ignoring you – not giving voice to your concerns and leaving you twisting in the wind. If he should reappear, you must appear strong and resolute in you disinterest in any BS has has to offer up as an excuse for his bad behavior.

Les tipped my off to the Baggage Reclaim site and I did recently review the book “Mr. Unavailable and the Fallback Girl.” If you’ve been in a succession of “doomed” relationships that have left you wondering, it’s a good read as you will understand why you were so vulnerable (although I think you have a good idea already why you were).
Always, Jan

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Trapped no more! - September 21, 2012

Teacher in Korea,
As Lesley mentioned, I am in the middle of my NC phase. It has been over two months, but I call it “the middle” because my relationship had been going on almost 3 years. It was on and off and there were periods of a month or two in which I was lucky enough to pull away from him. But he always resurfaced and sucked me back in.

That was, until I changed all my contact information and moved. He doesn’t know exactly where I live or work. But, as Lesley or Jan said, it is unlikely that he would go to such trouble to seek me out. They are inherently yellow-spined and highly unlikely to pursue more than is easily done, especially when it is clear you are no longer going to be on the hook.

As far as rage, I never saw it outright, either. I did see very scary elements of downright cold and ruthless components of his personality. He threatened me verbally and did it in a way that was quite frightening (lack of emotion). His strength and size would allow him to easily hurt or even kill me. But I think underneath it all, he is more afraid than a “skittish horse” (sorry Lesley!). I think his words to me were more of a pathetic, elementary defense to scare me more than anything else (I had threatened to expose him). That being said, I never tempted fate to see if he would come through on this threat. Better to walk away from such behavior than to mettle with it (I leave rattlesnakes alone when I see them rather than poke them with sticks!).

I agree with Jan. IF he does show up at your door, simply tell him, without emotion, to please leave you alone. It would be more likely, in my mind, that he would show up somewhere that you two used to frequent. Showing up at your door takes a lot of guts (which they don’t have).

Alternatively, if you have a way to see who is at your door, you simply could not answer it. In any case, I would not engage him in a conversation at all. The other thing you can do for a while is simply not answer your door, no matter what (if you have no way of knowing who it is). I have had to do this at my work (not answer my phone) because he WAS calling there initially, quite a bit as it was the only way he knew to contact me (couldn’t change that number).

Eventually, he quit calling because it was humiliating for him that I wouldn’t answer (he had no idea that I do not have caller ID at work, so did not know it was him until he left a message). As of today, I am pretty sure he has not called for at least a few weeks. So, my point is that you just have to stick it out. It may look odd to your floor mates, but it is what has to be done.

It seems that he has moved on, but I have not let my guard down. He was able to get me back so many times in the past that he may be thinking that if he just bides his time and lets me “cool off”, I’ll be back in the game.

As for that paranoid feeling, I completely understand! The first few weeks I walked around in fear that he was stalking me, following me, and might show up somewhere, anywhere that I was. Again, I think Jan put it best when she described the fear they have. More than anything humiliation is one of their biggest nightmares. It is already humiliating enough that you’ve cut off all contact. For him to walk into the fire and subject himself to more of the same is unlikely, I think, unless he thinks the odds are that he could get you back. At this point, you have sent out very clear signals that this is not going to be the case.

So hang in there. It is a strange time when you are avoiding someone. It kind of goes against our nature and puts a little guilt into our heads. But remember, this is not a normal person you are shutting out of your life. This is someone who has used you, abused you, and sees you only as an object he needs. You are the “ice cream cone” he craves for a moment, and nothing else. If he feels anything at all from not being able to get to you, it is likely just frustration at not getting what he wants, like a two year old (to use his words) not getting the toy.

I’ll share one more quick feeling that I’ve had these past few months: that is a yin and yang range of emotions. I felt anger if he did call my workplace (“you think it is that easy??”). I felt anger when he wasn’t calling (“oh, you can forget me that easily??”). Lots of anger. Lots of sadness. Lots of paranoia and fear (“what could this guy do?”). All in all, it is his control over me and that is where the work starts: slowly, carefully, and meticulously removing each tentacle from my skin. In order to do this, complete NC is the first and most powerful tool.

Hope this helps,
TNM

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273. Trapped no more! - September 22, 2012

Lesley,

As you can probably tell, I am at a similar place as you. I look at every man with suspicion. Another weird thing I do is sometimes look at a man and think “would I sleep with him?” This isn’t me at all! I’ve never done that. The answer is always no. I can’t even imagine going there with anyone because to do so means I would become vulnerable. I had never given myself to anyone in the way I did to the N. And this is probably what hurts the most-I gave the innermost of my core with all the emotion, love, and tenderness I had inside of me. He just sucked it up and brushed it off like it was routine stuff.

This is the part which will take eons to get over. It is all about self-preservation at the moment. There is a huge, deep wound which is healing. I think of the wounds I used to see that became infected and opened after surgery. They took months and months of special care to help them heal. The poor woman had to walk around with this festering, draining, horrible open and gaping wound on her abdomen, a constant reminder of the surgery she had. She couldn’t engage in any normal activities until it healed. This is us.

I’ve let myself go physically, too. I used to be in top shape, trained to run marathons. i had not an ounce of fat on me, a six-pack abdomen, lean and tight legs. My face glowed. Now, I’ve gained 10 pounds. I huff and puff when I run a mere 3 miles. My belly has a protrusion of fat. My face looks swollen and pale. I look in the mirror and wonder how this happened. Was it the travel? The accident? Or is it fallout from this whole thing? I am pretty sure it is the latter.

I’ve put myself back into a 12 week baseline training schedule, of which I am on week four. But I had to miss a few days last week because of a cold (I also never used to catch colds!) and exhaustion related to the emotions of dropping my daughter at school. This morning I will also miss a day due to having to take a friend to the airport early and having to prepare a dinner for another friend. I’ve decided to start the program back from week one and really focus on my diet.

A neighbor handed me a book last week on feng shui. I read it with interest and took notes. I decided, even though I am very skeptical, that I will busy myself with fun stuff like doing little things in my new place to change it this weekend, my first weekend without my daughter. I start my fall quarter Monday and work has been busy. I found out my insurance will cover a proportion of the therapist…

So, I am hoping that between finding new interests, focusing on my health, and trying to reconnect with my friends that I will continue to heal. I need to get out of this rut. By the same token, I probably needed to be in the rut, if for nothing else, as a starting point. The other thing I am being careful about is making sure that I have time to spend with introspection. One of the things I’ve always done was fill my days with so much stuff that I never really thought about myself. I’m learning that this is key. Even if that time is spent feeling a great deal of pain, it is very important to embrace those feelings.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I think we are moving along a very normal pathway, considering what we have been through. In a sense (I don’t remember who said it earlier), we are dealing with a death, or at the very least, a significant loss. No, it isn’t a loss that we’ve let go of our Ns. It is more than that. We had very powerful emotions evoked by them. We had very strong attachments form, and resulting dreams and hopes. These were carelessly bashed into the ground in a way that left us senseless and raw.

We’ve sustained very deep injuries to our psyches. Our responses are normal, I think. We need to cut ourselves some slack and just accept where we are at the moment. Like the woman who has the wound infection after surgery, we also need to fully heal before we consider engaging in any serious activities (i.e. with men). She cannot do any heavy lifting, any strong physical work. We cannot open ourselves, we cannot engage with a male, and we cannot even imagine being intimate. Like the poor wound infection, we also need to virtually cleanse ourselves with daily soothing salt water, and pack it with nice, clean gauze. But mostly, we need to be patient and loving and kind to ourselves.

I am hoping this approach will lead to a day that I feel like a whole woman again.

The analogy of tending to a wound is an apt analogy. I’m sure having your daughter go off to college can also evoked a sense of loss even though it was a positive thing for her. Regarding Feng Shui – it’s mostly about common sense and creating a harmonious environment. I’m in the San Gabriel Valley, which is home to many Asians. I’ve actually incorporated many elements of feng shui into my classroom. Never having your back to the door, so that you’re in the power position, etc. Maybe it’s because I originally majored in art, but so much of it just makes sense aesthetically. It has a lot to do with the flow of positive energy and after you’ve been dealing with a N, that’s SO necessary! 🙂 Jan

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Lesley - September 22, 2012

Hi TNM,
The analogy of healing is so key and the time that it takes…
My ‘wall’ if you like it about keeping up that wall at the moment.
As I’ve mentioned before I have some well intentioned friends who assume to know best for me and are determined to throw me back in the deep end.
I won’t sink, but i will just swim to the side and get out the pool just now..too soon for me?
Your post is so so timely for me because of your comments on
exercising…you may have heard that Winston Churchill described his depression as ‘his Black Dog’.and he would feel it appearing Well, my attitude to exercise could be called my ‘Black Cat’and I don’t feed it so much these days!
As a young woman I was obsessed by maintaining my weight through exercising and became,I believe, fairly addicted to the endorphins. I overcame this when I had my son and my attitude to exercise became healthier… I enjoy being fit like you but recognise when I start to focus on it to much..It’s linked to stress/feeling out of control for me?
I did notice a few weeks ago that the pesky Black cat was appearing again but reminded myself that I’d cycled twice that week and walked everyday to work…enough for me at moment and if I go back to any routine it will be pilates.
I do envy you the dedication to have a 6 pack… Not sure I could ever do that..?One thing that I was asked by two Canadian women was whether I had had my bottom ribs removed?(LOL) I have a short waist!! I looked at them mystified but they thought it was a great compliment…?Do people do that?
I agree that the path we’re on seems to have some light at the end…but it is a bumpy path for sure.
I’m reading Turgenevs ‘A House of Gentlefolk’ just now which has a couple of Narcs,male and
female as characters..but lots of laughs amidst the typical Russian pathos.Finding a great read is also healing.
My son goes in three weeks,for a couple of months and then is back for three…! I am not getting rid of him so easily this year!
Also,I cannot be as far down in the ice chest that I thought,
I was just out shopping and there was a guy in front of me on the escalator…I remember thinking ‘He has a nice arse'(LOLOL)…so I guess I haven’t gone blind or had all my nerve endings cauterised yet!
Thanks for your post TNM,always food for thought…
Light Shine Les

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274. Donna - September 22, 2012

TNM, I can relate to your post very well and I believe that focusing on your own self care and healing is an excellent move. I had to admit to myself many, many times that a man can’t make me happy and whole if I wasn’t happy and healthy all by myself. It takes work however, as long as we keep breathing there is hope. You have learned many life lessons along your journey and will no longer be a gutton for punishment from any one anymore. Feng Shui is fun and opens up some creative ways to bring joy, beauty and happiness just for you.

Take Care, Donna

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Lesley - October 1, 2012

Donna, I meant to reply to your post a week ago…so glad you walked away,was worried when you said you had saw him again but knew you’d win through. Life lessons are definitely where it’s at and may just check out that Feng Shui as Trapped said. Keeping breathing is great advice.
@Trapped am defintely’cutting myself some slack’ about to go eat Italian with my nephew on outskirts of Glasgow….Light Shine to all.Les

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275. Donna - October 1, 2012

Hi Lesley, I have missed my friends here mainly because we had bonded sharing our experiences with the Narcs in our past. Yes, it has been three weeks since I last saw him. He looked so pitiful and alone with this very blank look in his eyes. I told him that “Hate doesn’t live in my Heart” and I did walk away.

So I hope everyone is doing well and will post how you are doing every now and then. My best to all, Donna

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276. Chris - October 10, 2012

Hi all,
Just catching up and I’m currently not completely caught up reading here (I just finished post 251 [interested in hearing about the date]), but had to comment on the description of writing an email to an N …writing very carefully so as not to offend etc. The wife of our N has expressed how she has to “think” about how she how to address things with him, and then very gingerly go about her words. What a life, walking on eggshells with someone who is supposed to be your partner in life. Treating him as a delicate child so as not to injure his sad brain!

And I may have mentioned it before but the conflict avoidance thing was brought up and our narc’s “friends” have told us that he can’t handle conflict, that either his wife or attorney will end up handling it. That didn’t stop him from raging on the one of us and then trying to threaten the other. I prefer dealing w/his wife or attorney to ever having to have contact with his crazy ass again. When he receives word that our issue is being addressed, I am concerned about his reaction….will he try to do something to us, or take it out on his wife and/or child? I feel as though he will really play the victim with his wife as he did recently regarding us and when I spoke with her about it I pulled no punches other than stopping short of using the N word. I wish I could be more detailed but not in a public forum as you all understand.

On more thing regarding a comment (I think by Jan) that the N’s spouse or lover may tend to think, I protect him, I love him best…that should make me worthy……well I can see that his wife likely feels that way but like was stated: they end up going down in flames like the rest of us. He tried to divorce her awhile back and she fought it. I hate divorce, but I wonder if it would be best for her and her child. The child is probably more mature than him at this point, although from my view there is a 98% possibility they are turning the poor child into an N as well.

Hi Chris,
I can’t say this with 100 percent accuracy, but most Ns are more bark than bite. Yes, you’re dealing with an immature child with a bad attitude, so there’s no logical conversation to be had. Deal with his wife/attorney. Document everything – just in case. Many Ns are verbal and emotional abusers while some cross over into physical abuse. Since there’s no telling, just stick to the facts and avoid one-on-one dealings with this idiot.
Jan

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Lesley - October 11, 2012

Hey Chris,
Great to hear from you again and sorry that this situation is still going on! I agree with Jan and from experience that there may be some ‘puffed up’ indignant reaction from him but he’s unlikely to incur any
real danger to his physical person….because he’s a woose? A coward?As we’ve discussed before the best reaction is to just shake your head at him and walk away…this takes away his importance and deflates his ego. It also keeps your stress levels down….
My heart is sore for his wife and child though…as any minor or major insult to the Narc(perceived or otherwise) is likely played out on them. A form of transference….if he’s angry outside,the folk closest to home will get the flak.Their lives must be pretty bad on a daily basis…..awful.Again I wish this woman and her child had more support or the courage to leave?
She stays because of hope that she can change him and is ‘the exception to the rule’ and she will label this ‘Love’. I’ve experienced this form of self- delusion,albeit,thankfully for a shorter period of time and it’s very powerful. She needs to change from within and to experience that’straw that breaks the camel’s back’ feeling.Then she will change.
Re Gaslighting…imagine first a spotlight.You may have a light angled one way in your home to show you a picture or help you to read…?The Narc uses both gaslights and spotlights to my mind. In conversation and in their actual lives?
In conversation he steers away or minimises any fact that would put him in a negative light. He plays up his strengths,he ignores any justified criticism and may even shine the light back on you?The REAL point of the conversation,(perhaps to take him to task) is lost?
He has just gas lit his faults?
Narcs live their whole lives this way,showing off their good points or idealised image and gaslighting the negative.They learned very very early on how to do so.
They are always in partial shadow.They never expose themselves fully to the light…to do so would be far too scary?
Just as aside, they are also great at gaslighting on paper too!!
I was recently going over some old correspondence I had from my Narc and I can see clearly how he never addresses a concern I have directly…he takes the conversation off on a tangent. I know that other’s on the blog Trapped No More and Phil have experienced this too?You end up twisting and turning in the wind?
Jan is so so right about checking and double checking that any correspondence between you is accurate and well documented.I’m sure you are doing this.
Ha,ha…about the date. He was an OK guy Chris,no chemistry but I enjoyed the night…thanks for asking.

Hope your situation resolves soon,
Light Shine,
Lesley

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277. Chris - October 10, 2012

Also, could some of you give examples of gaslighting you’ve experienced w/your N?

Thanks!

Chris,
I view “gaslighting” as anything the N does to cause you to doubt yourself – to wonder if YOU are the one who is going crazy. In my personal experience, all of the gaslighting came in the form of denying conversations or information and implying that perhaps I was the one who had a problem. “Of course I told you about that.” These were mind games pure and simple designed to sew the seeds of doubt.
Jan

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278. Chris - October 18, 2012

Jan, I have looked (maybe not long enough?) and cannot find an email address for you on here. I really wish I could pose my question to the entire board as everyone has such good advice and input, but I feel I can’t put this on a public forum because of who may come across it in the future. Can you please email me? Thank you.

Done. Jan

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279. Fern - October 25, 2012

This series just changed my life. Seriously. I have been involved with a person for over 10 years as both a friend and something more. I have been left with so many questions and painful emotions until now. I’m graciously relieved. Thank you SO much for speaking out!!! You are an angel 🙂

Fern,
I’m so glad you found some answers. When we’re left to fill in the blanks, we tend to wonder, “If only I had…” when no matter what we would have/could have done would have been enough. There is no clear resolution with a person with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), as their lives are studies in denial. Your heartfelt comment was a great way to start my day. Seriously. 🙂 Jan

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280. Chris - November 2, 2012

Thanks for contacting me Jan, I appreciate it very much.

I’ve read something here about your Narcissist List Vault. Wouldn’t it be nice to have a list online w/all the N’s names. But like I have said, we never would have believed it until we experienced it ourselves.

The posters here should write a book or screenplay about an N (or Ns), with the character(s) experiencing things from the N’s in our lives.

In any case, I wish there were a movie like this and popular enough to spread the word and inform potential victims before it’s too late, but also inform ones that are still just wondering what the hell is going on in their lives and possibly blaming themselves.

Haha! When I talk about putting something in The Vault, it’s a virtual one. It just means it’s information that secure. For Your Eyes Only kind of stuff. 🙂 There are some sites that do post movies that feature N characters. I know that The Incredible Mr. Ripley features a psychopath and a N (a double feature of dysfunction!). Actually, a movie on Steve Jobs could tap into some of that, but the trouble is many of the Ns we hear about are IMPORTANT people, so it’s easier to imagine someone at the top being very narcissistic. It’s more difficult to imagine how lethal a narcissist can be when they’re someone more ordinary – someone like the N in your life.:) Jan

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281. Chris - November 3, 2012

Well the pussy once again had his wife come to me with a question and it was all about his wants and needs. No thought in his warped brain about the BS he laid down to start all this shit! What a sad bitch (and I am not talking about his wife. He is a b$tch coward). Sorry for the language, Jan please edit as you see fit.

We’re all adults here, so I just tinkered a bit. >wink< I was just getting ready to respond to your last comment. Sorry, but it's been a CRAZY October. I'm working on a new post. (Okay, doing the research for it based on real research that studied whether a N knows they are a N.) And most likely they do. More about that later. I was inspired to write this because some one made a comment that was so illiterate, it was painful to read (but I try to remember that some people aren't writing in their first language). But the gist of it was that since N's don't know what they "have," you can't blame them for being terrible people. This "justification" has been fermenting in my brain and will soon make its way onto paper. 🙂 Jan

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MillyRad - November 4, 2012

In a way, I kind of get the “justification” of NPD behavior. Not too long ago I was on a message board geared towards supporting loved ones of people with BPD. Many of the situations being discussed involve people that have comorbid cluster B disorders, especially NPD + BPD. One of the posters wrote that dealing with a cluster B disordered person, while being aware that the person has it, is like having to watch a puppy dying of rabies – you feel compelled to help and comfort it in its sickness, but you know that if you get too close it will hurt you without thinking twice. It’s hard, for me at least, knowing that my former friend had such an awful childhood, to not give him some leeway for inappropriate behavior. I think people with a lot of empathy reflexively try to see the other’s point if view and put the bad behavior of others into context. Like, maybe they didn’t get enough sleep, they’ve worked too many hours, or are just having a bad day. Unfortunately, I think that cluster B folks consciously, and subconsciously, seek out patient and empathetic people because we tirelessly seek (and want to see) the good in them. We support them and validate them until they find someone who does it “better,” then in their eyes we become just another persecuter from their past.

Also, and I hate to admit it, I got quite an ego boost from being the “one” person my ex friend treated well. Not that I liked it when he was mean to others, but it did make me feel special. I value patience and kindness very highly, so I took his behavior as proof that patience, kindness, and caring whoop cynicism’s butt and that they’re things I’m truly good at. Maybe even better at them than other people. *sigh* I can see how someone who’s still in the “honeymoon” phase with a narcissist could justify their nasty behavior. None of it has been directed at them yet, and they’re still being told that they’re the only person who truly understands them, not like all of the clueless jerks in their past.

MillyRad,
If only the caffeine would kick in, I’d finish writing my post about just this dilemma. I’m also a little tweaky about the election, so maybe later in the week.
Two thoughts. First, I too gave a pass to some bad behavior telling myself that my friend had had a less than wonderful childhood. But when someone treats YOU badly and you explain why and how they hurt you and then they refuse to accept that they did in fact hurt you, that’s where this argument goes awry. And then they proceed to hurt you again while telling you you’re thin skinned or that you “asked for it.”
Secondly, you got a rush from how he treated you at the beginning, especially in comparison to others. This is the false notion that “I’m the exception to the rule.” I am THE ONE that he will change for. Yes, I know this feeling. This has led so many people to waste years of their lives trying to make this fantasy come true, when in fact after the N no longer idealizes you (or needs you), you’ll be confined to the scrapheap with all of those others who once felt so special too. It’s a no win situation. 😦 Always, Jan

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282. lesley - November 5, 2012

Hi Millyrad,
As always read your post with interest.Love the analogy of the puppy with rabies. I think what happens here is we rationalise and empathise from the stance of a non- narc looking in to what is in effect an abyss of human nature?We try to understand,fail then are compelled to try again…?
We set ourselves a standard about what it means to be ‘good and caring’ in the world and follow this to the letter,giving second chances and ignoring our own hurts at the hands of these individuals.
But….I got off this roundabout with my Narc when I realised his incurable status and to be fair to myself around a decade ago I did much work on myself to enable me to recognise the part I played in perpetuating these relationships. I had one or two people in my life at that time who were users/borderline/maybe Narc.I actually thought of myself as ‘caring’ to tolerate these folk in my life? I agree with you and Jan…it’s ‘inverted ego’ we like to feel we are the exception the the rule,the ones who can change these guys,their ‘turning over a new leaf’ rescuers. We are not.
Who the hell are we to think we can change anyone!
This led me in my life and friendships to give up control. I would be myself and who stayed around was genuine in response to my own authentic self.I stopped trying to have all the answers.Always being there for someone is wearing to the soul.
What remains is me,a person who values listening and being there for people,who cares but is not a pushover or someone who will listen to BS or repetitive nasty or hysterical behaviour. I will give people a second chance but not a third. My boundaries about my own needs and those of others are more secure than they have ever been and find that manipulative behaviour or passive aggression shows up against these boundaries.Borderline people have a wide repetoire of behaviours to use?They are always slighted,always in the right,always making amends,frequently ill,frequently going through bad patches and they always claim to feel everything more than you do?At heart they are terribly lost and angry and their only hope is actually feeling this acute sense of anger and loss.Other than that they continue to act out or project on others?All cluster B’s in my opinion dodge responsibility and act out?
Jan is dead right.Her advice to us is sound.We are actually not the ‘only’ person who can deal with these’friends’… to them we are simply a different option.They may have burned bridges elsewhere and turn to us for help and succour because other avenues have closed?In fact one clue that you are dealing with cluster B-is when you fall out with them they pick up the phone/e mail the next person on list. In this they are ruthless. Their emotional needs are paramount.
I refuse to be an’alternative avenue’ for a personality disordered individual?Great post Millyrad.
Light Shine,Les

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283. Donna - November 5, 2012

Hello to Milly, Jan and Les I found all three of your comments very interesting and hitting home with in my past experience with my ExN friend. I learned along time ago that you can’t change people from my exhusband. However, being an empathic and compassionate person has alway seemed to attract hurting ppl who needed a friend into my life. I had learned to be caustious in developing new friendships and watched and listened to individuals words and actions to determine if I could venture into a new relationship with them. Respect is just that respect and I believe that most relationships to be healthy are mutually beneficial. Yes, I admit guilt in wanting to be that good friend that could listen and help without recusing. The care giver in my just wanted to see folks healthy and happy. So getting duped by this last person who I allowed to ignore my boundaries was a set back. I do try to give second chances because we all make mistakes in life with people, but the third chance will not come from me. It has been a along and hard lesson to learn that some grown folks never growup.

All in all, I don’t regret having to learn this lesson. Everyone is not good, honest, trustworthy, caring and willing to be a real friend.

Take care to all!!!
Donna

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284. Paul Bro - November 22, 2012

“One of the posters wrote that dealing with a cluster B disordered person, while being aware that the person has it, is like having to watch a puppy dying of rabies – you feel compelled to help and comfort it in its sickness, but you know that if you get too close it will hurt you without thinking twice.”

In the context of the paragraph from this quote: Remember – some are born this way; they aren’t all just battered children. There are those who are genetic. Antisocial Personality Disorder is in that list of cluster B – it is them who are born genetically different without conscience, without remorse and without empathy. It depends on their childhood whether or not they grow up to be serial killers and mass murderers.

I have been searching to see if Borderline Personality Disorder was related to Psychopathy and Narcissism. Now I know they are and are classified in cluster B because of this post. I came onto each individual one differently. Now it’s time to explore Histrionic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder more carefully. The narcissist and the psychopath I know well. I’m beginning to suspect that the reason they are related is because they are dealing with the same part of the brain that’s malfunctioning. The limbic system – the part of the brain responsible for emotion, compassion and the sense of connection to others. This cluster B of personality disorders is given the evidence I have snarfed through the last year to be the most evil, the most dangerous, and the most deadly.

I am not alone in my realization of the psychopathic ones and their close cousin the narcissist. Now there’s borderline personality disorder and histrionic to fit into the bubble. What a god awful group. I have no pity and I have no remorse for them. There are those that I know who think they (the psychopaths) should all be put to death. I feel as though I’m an oracle almost. I see the end coming for them.

Hi Paul,
Thanksgiving looms, but I wanted say a couple of things. First, the vast majority of those who are psychopaths and sociopaths (on the so-called spectrum of Anti-Social Personality Disorder) do not grow up to become serial killers. (Dexter aside.) Their emotional detachment and lack of empathy merely “kills” the spirits and hopes of those close to them who can’t understand why they are incapable of love. So, you can’t “kill” these people because they’re already spiritually dead. Something to think about. Jan

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285. Lynette d'Arty-Cross - December 10, 2012

I very much appreciate your commentary about the cerebral narcissist. Sexually, my ex-N was exactly as you describe, however with the added feature of being a latent homosexual. (He liked to hide in the garage and masturbate to on-line porn.) This gave him yet another reason to hate himself and women, in particular. Narcissists are certainly a mess. Thanks for all your work here, Jan.

Lynette,
I’m a little leery of the “latent homosexual” label since Freud coined it. From my reading, it pertains to someone who has suppressed or ignored their sexual interest in people of the same sex. Maybe this is because one of my sons is gay and I’ve sat through a LOT of PFLAG meetings (on my blogroll) where people talked about their “coming out” experience.” I’ve met people who married and had children – all the while knowing that they had same sex attractions that they’d dutifully suppressed so as to live a “normal” life. But living a lie became too much for them especially as they grew older and realized it was now or never. BTW – the cerebral N in my life like to visit a voyeuristic site – sort of a DIY porn site. When I said I liked sex with REAL people, he heartily agreed and said that’s why he liked this site. The people weren’t professional actors/models – they were REAL people. His convoluted logic was astounding! Jan

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286. Pam - December 17, 2012

I have just discovered this blog and so appreciate, Jan, your efforts in writing it. I have been married to a malignant narcissist for 28 years and was idealized the whole time, although his arrogance and pompous attitude was both hurtful and embarrassing. I thought I was taking the good with the bad. He literally turned on me overnight and now I am living a ferocious divorce. Truly, a sunami came through my life and I felt as though I was being slammed against trees and rocks over and over, swirling the whole time. Of course, he’s committing adultery but has been denying it from the start (this began 1-1/2 years ago. We have three amazing children, all of whom do not speak to him. He was vicious in how he left and what he did and continues to do. I will write about it when I feel the strength. It is a comfort to know that those on here will know that I am not exaggerating one bit when I relate the nightmare. Again, my thanks for a comforting place to be…

Pam,
So glad you stopped by. Yes, those who’ve been there don’t doubt your stories, as they’ve got plenty of their own. CZBZ at Narcissistic Continuum (on my blogroll) was actually married to a narcissist for a long time, so her perspective is invaluable. I suppose you’re in survival mode at the moment, but that will keep your head afloat so that you can be there for your children. You will survive – and thrive. I know it doesn’t seem like that right now, but others can show you the way. Please do write more when you’re able. I learn so much from my wonderful readers. Peace. Jan

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Pam - December 28, 2012

I went to see Les Mis tonight. Fantastic film… What hit me like a ton of bricks was, for those who’ve seen it, the scene after the revolution where the dead bodies are lined up and the streets are filled with blood, like a river. That is a precise image of what I feel he did to his own family. I was stunned and thought that scene is a way to describe how he has made me feel. My children and myself lying dead on the ground in a river of our blood. He slaughtered us and went off to his mistress, the one he is still denying exists 1.5 years later. It was a profound moment — my feelings, my family, up there on the screen.

Pam,
I just wrote a response only to have it vanish as I looked for a link. ARGH! I’m so looking forward to seeing this movie. When I first starting blogging, another blogger, Mark Market, wrote a piece about narcissism and I loved the graphic. I asked where he’d come by it. He couldn’t remember (thus no credit), but gave me permission to use it. Just like in the scene from “Les Mis,” I totally identified with this image. The N never looks back at the carnage he’s left. I even had the image put on a t-shirt which I happen to be wearing today! Coincidence? LOL The shirt is faded now, but I remember wondering how people could so callously “move on.” Bad Guys Really Do Get the Most Girls FYI: Comment #27 on this thread is from my sweet sister-in-law who was married to a N for 14 years. Always, Jan

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287. Mark - December 18, 2012

Jan……..

It seems that the NPD is somewhat exclusive to men. Most of the horrible stories are from women. Can you help me understand this? Why not more men who have suffered this fate?
Mark

Mark
Although it is believed that more men than women have NPD, since so few narcissists seek help, the results could be skewed. I also believe women are more likely to seek help. Men are often embarrassed to admit they’re essentially being abused by a woman. As I’ve said, narcissism is the ground flog that swirls around all of the Cluster B Disorders. Women seem to have the corner on a Borderline Personality for instance. Don’t know why, but it’s important to keep asking questions. Jan

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288. frida - December 27, 2012

dear jan, dear everyone, i´ve been a silent reader for some time now and my own experience with what i now think must a (alleged) N, left me in a bad state. i´ve come full circle, it´s been a year since i met and fell for him. i´m rewriting this comment, as my previous draft got so long and detailed, i felt everyone would have been just plainly exasperated. at best. 😉 now, i tried to break off with him this past year about 5 times..of course he always managed to have me coming back to the loop and i was left in that spinning, malicious, threatening mirror hall of horrors, doubting myself, my soul and sanity until i was, for a time, plainly suicidal. after searching “emotional abuse” on google, just because i simply FELT emotionally abused, i, like so many, found reflief and revelation in discovering that vicious disorder. the pieces of the puzzle match and yet i feel this self-doubt, this anguish that i might have been the perpetrating party, that i may have been the one too pushy, too full of herself, too demanding, too oversensitive. which, in my clear moments, is ridiciulous, considering the psychopathic, threatening and plainly mental stuff he´s done to me..i wish i could go into the nasty details but am afraid that his might give identities away. plus, i feel this need to get it off my chest..it keeps spinning me, replaying in my mind, still tugging at my sanity and sends me into doubting me myself all over again and again. to cut this long story, he always managed to override my self-protection system, my attempts to cut the cord, my feeble attempts at NC..i actually exposed him for what he was, even if i didn´t know the “professional” terminology by then. i challenged him on all the typical N-traits and behaviour, which he, true N-fashion, dismissed and reeled me in with promises for better, just to blow yet another, even meaner bunch of explosive mistreatment in my face. just in october, after some NC from me, we had another talk and i thought things were finally unto somewhere decent, when he hit the button yet again. this time, i did not react as usual, i did not call him on his bullshit or lament my hurt, i just plainly laughed in his face, exposing his pathetic strategy to hurt me as the joke it was. now, you don´t laugh at a N. he went ballistic, sent miles of mean projective insults in text and announced/insinuated the end of the relationship (he´s got his “nexts” already lined up i suppose)..but he kept coming back..strangely enough. anyways, i am more confident now, knowledge seems to help but still i doubt myself..if i could go into detail, tell some of the stuff he did to me (makes a helluva story: knives, rape, ghosts, demons, duels in the woods, gal vs. lad fistfights anyone? i am NOT kidding.) , i feel would get me the feedback if i was truly trapped by an N. of course, diagnosing a psychopathological disorder from afar and hearsay is no-one´s business but these doubts are killing me..did i overreact? was i oversensitive? why can´t i let go? i don´t need him and i certainly don´t need this mirror hall of horrors, yet i miss something, him, the him he never was..the D&D seems to have come thru eventually but i fear and hope (don´t kill me for that, please!) at the same time, he will be back and i´m afraid i want him back for all the wrong reasons..thoughts of revenge flare up in my mind..delusional ideas of getting even, exposing him..then there´s fear, shame, longing and hate mixed in it. he wined and dined my soul and i feel he still is..from afar. or from within? thanks for listening..peace! (if only..) f.

Frida,
Thanks for venturing out of the shadows to comment. 🙂 “…knives, rape, ghosts, demons, duels in the woods, gal vs. lad fistfights anyone?” This sounds more like a bad episode of “True Blood.” If this has been going on for a year, it seems that you’ve invested way more time trying to “understand or explain” the bad behavior of this person than you have in having an actual “healthy” relationship. Do the math. Perhaps you’ve become addicted to the drama.

There’s nothing to doubt. This person is not good for you. Having all of the answers will not change that fact. Your fantasies of exposing him, etc., are common and come out of the belief that you can on some level “win.” You can only win when you let go of the rope and walk away.
As Maya Angelou said, “The first time someone shows you who they really are, believe them.” He’s shown you who he is. Now what are you going to do about it? Always, Jan

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frida - December 28, 2012

thanks so much for your kind and wise words, jan! yeah, the math is pretty obvious..for a year, he got everything he wanted from me and left me with zip. on all levels. so it should be/should´ve been a piece of cake to just walk out, shrugging it off with “oh well, he´s just an a**”. been there, done it. this is the first time i just can´t shrug it off..i guess, the key is A, the unbelieveable scale of emotional havoc and mental abuse B, exposure to and resulting erosion by subtle and toxic manipulation and lastly C, the last blow of the withholding tactic: no closure or validation. it keeps one hanging in midair and this is probably what they want..always, in or out of the “relationship”..keep you hanging and guessing, so they can still twist you around to their hearts delight when it pleases them.

funny you should mention “true blood”. i was so into that when i met him and we both loved that series..have you ever listened to the lyrics of that opening title song? that´s the sexiness of narcisstic darkness revealed..what gives me the shivers, is the fact that there had been so many “eccentric synchronicities” while this thing lasted..

the first song he posted the night after he declared he´d fallen in love with me, was called “no boundaries”. i was working on a modern theatrical remake of the “narcissus and echo” myth when i met him. his favourite book was ovid´s “metamorphoses”..he´d often quote and comment on how nothing retains form, how everything is flux (i agree. but he thought this philosophy an excuse for total irresponsibility and whimsical, lazy noncommitment to anything at all..). how he would discuss his love for the surface, how one could easily just preoccupy oneself with appearance and surface as there is nothing beyond surface (or “interface” as he termed it)..how he wanted to do a collaborative artwork, based on mindgames and the question why a person would knowingly expose oneself to potentially lethal (mental) situations..how he would always fake and copy stuff (he thinks he´s an artist..i am too..well, his work is so shallow, cheap and dire..he´s just in it for the easy kicks of “being an artist” and the easy gratification/admiration that comes with it. free drinks and endless supply of nubile groupies. plus it´s the best excuse for living the sloppy life he does and excuses his psycho manouvres as “eccentricities”.). the copycat thing went as far as him using my style of speech, words, phrases etc. in conversation with others..he´d sponge on anything and put it back out as his own. this behaviour puzzled me most..he´d literally copy speech, clothes, music tastes, ideas, preferences, interests, hobbies and what not from me (and others) and adopt it. talk about emptiness, authenticity and personality..

oh well, i digress..basically, apart from the “hard-facts red flags”, there´ve been so many sublime “signs”, i should have known what was in store for me..i suspect that deep down i was actually drawn to him BECAUSE i sensed the darkness and abyss..maybe subconsciously wanted the drama, as you suggested. although i am a thoroughly positive, outgoing, vibrant personality, i am drawn towards darkness..i love to explore, introspect, explore my own darkness and it shows in my work. yet i never was prepared for THIS..i must admit, some of his pull was exactly that. i wanted to meet the demon. but what a disappointment.. he wasn´t even a demon, tho he put a lot of effort into acting one (he actually said, verbatim, he´d love to be “a god or at least a vampyr or demon”). but, despite all the painfully real psycho-voodoo he conjured, he wasn´t a demon. just an empty shell of nothing, a sloppy looser with a non-genuine depression (when faced with the actuality of his being a total fail and upon being deprived of admiration or distraction), sexual performance issues, endless finanical troubles, childish and infantile ideas and behaviour, playing everlasting peter-pan and living a tattered lie of a life at 35. how pathetically mundane. eventually, what he said upon us first meeting, might be true: “you´re too big for me. you´re too much of a deep, cosmopolitan, clever and successful lady.” (sorry about this short display of my own narcissism 😉 but i think he wanted me and at the same time envied and hated me for being all he wanted to be: intellectually, emotionally, professionally, financially, even physically) but this mundane evil still managed and still manages to hurt me like none, to suck off me and twist my spirit..my biggest challenge now: letting go.
my quantum of solace is that the lesson(s) to be learned may be worth the pain(s).

sorry for having gotten carried away..i´m less in lament mode today and more in rant mode..changes day to day 😉 thanks for letting me vent a bit here. maybe i should really write a blog or book, as a friend suggested. “true blood” – brace yerself! 😉 thanks and my best wishes to you and everyone! peace! f.

Frida,
Some of the things you said are downright creepy – creepy in that I can so relate to them and could have written your letter. So I DO get where you’re coming from. Note to self: Must make t-shirt that says “I’m in flux.” 🙂
I’m waylaid following knee surgery on Dec. 19th, so I have lots of time on my hands though 2012 was a lazy year for writing. You’ve given me some things to think about.
FYI: Did you know that the opening montage for “True Blood” was inspired by the film, “Searching for a One-Eyed Jesus?” It’s an adventure into the underbelly of the South. Both my husband and I are art majors (We took the vow of poverty early on.) and just happened to watch the film two weeks ago. The music in it is also haunting. Always, Jan

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frida - December 28, 2012

dear jan, oh..synchronicities! i watched “searching for the one-eyed jesus” two years ago with my husband (yep. i´m married. he and our “us” suffered immensely under this thing with my N. husband and me are believers in an open relationship and so far, it has always worked, bringing us even closer as this kind of freedom only comes and works with taking responsibility, with respect and openness. but this N-thing was an ordeal, for both of us. still is.)..anyways, watched “…jesus” in a tiny farmshack while on a creative retreat up on the mojave/joshua tree and LOVED it! didn´t know that it inspired the “true blood” intro montage tho. will be travelling the deep south USA for the first time this coming april and am looking forward to catching on to the spirit! and brilliant to hear about the “vow of poverty”..the videoartist in me nods knowingly and so would the writer-hubby 😉 swift recovery to you, jan! peace! f.

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Source B - December 28, 2012

None of this sounds healthy, I think.

It might be best to concentrate on a happy life with yourself, your art, and your husband?

Source B,
I agree. The term, “open” marriage rubs me the wrong way. If you want THAT, why bother getting married at all? That sort of relationship seems to be something that goes with being a Kennedy wife, living in the 70s, or with being French. I’m none of the above. As a teacher, I’ve found what children crave most are boundaries (though they might shove and push against them – they need to know they’re in place). Adults are no different. It’s actually our boundaries that give us our freedom. Always, Jan

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frida - December 29, 2012

sorry if i´m replying outside of thread..i´m a bit confused if this will show up in it´s right place under source b´s and jan´s post. 😉

“none of this sounds healthy” well, yes. i am aware that this whole “thing” with my N has been anything but healthy. that´s why i´m here, why i´m trying to get my bearings straight, wanting to find and discuss reasons and insight. however, relating to my open marriage, which is a frequent discussion i´m experiencing..
(even my N would scold me. he has a GF he cheaply “cheats” on (i´m pretty sure he´s rarely able to cheat in the literal sense), covering it up with mean, feeble lies. oh, throw the stone^^)
…so, if you are relating to that: it´s NOT about promiscuity or carte blanche to go chasing the eternal greener grass (that, as far as i know, would be typical N stuff). no. i stand by my marriage, i stand by this bond, i fight thru trials and tribulations. it´s about realising that nothing is ever fundamentally secure or for granted or exclusive. (this is where i would agree with “panta rhei”..flux..but the positive flux of transformation!) married or not, there will always be profane (or less profane 😉 ) temptations, there will always be the chance of loosing your partner to someone else, there will always be others that capture a place in your heart, one way or another, there are no guarantees for anything. if anything, what´s exclusive is the actual true singular bond you have with someone and you have to work on it. that requires openess, respect and responsibility. and allowing the freedom to acknowledge, live and transform this freedom in a relationship requires even more of that responsibility. in my experience, it´s far more enriching to be that open, to allow (not “just” on a sexual level, mind you) other people to enter and share your heart and life and permit your partner the same liberty. if you go about it in a respectful, open, trusting and truthful way, this is, at least in my world, exceptionally healthy. healthier than suppression, evasion, lies, betrayal, adultery, secrecy and other painful BS. and hubby would agree. neither of us forced this upon the other. it was and is a mutual, free and loving agreement. i neither feel a “kennedy wife”, nor has an open relationship anything to do with boundless, arbitrary or noncommiting do-as-you-please, it´s quite the contrary! now, you may rightfully ask, what drove me towards my N, if my marriage is all that peachy. well, that´s another story, ´cause perfect doesn´t exist and i´m slowly learning to face my own issues. (open relationships require, IMO, lots more effort and communication and “work” – that´s the hard AND the good part.) but as i run into this discussion about open relationships often and into some stereotype assumptions (no insinuation you had these, source B or jan!), i felt i should clarify jus´a tad 😉 and after all, the introspective hows and whys of relationships are, among others, one basic reason we´re all here..peace! 😀 f.

PS: “that comes with being french.” lol, maybe let´s phrase it “with being european”? guilty as charged 😉

Frida,
I think that your situation sounded dire enough and then you mentioned that you also had a husband. Yes, from my POV, things got infinitely more complicated. That said, I don’t care about the details of your marriage. Marriage is a legal contract at heart and if you want to add a scoop of sanctity on top, so be it. I’m just hoping that my younger son, who is gay, will be able to some day to marry the love of his life.
But, this person who is seemingly an N has poisoned the well that you both drink from, and on some level, you seem to still feel the need to quench your thirst?
There is NOTHING to be gained and everything to lose. I’ve been married for 35 years and my husband had a hard time fathoming my relationship with the N. Although he was a friend, there was a lot of flirtation involved. He just couldn’t understand how I was so suckered by someone so ultimately small. At the end of the day, when it comes to a relationship, I want to know who’s got my back. Jan

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289. lesley - December 27, 2012

Hi all,
Just wanted to wish all friends,particularly on this stream of Jan’s blog a lovely and peaceful holidays…to thank you for the insights you helped me to reach during our Summer debate and send on my hopes for your future happiness.
To all new posters best wishes are with you too and lets hope 2013 is a time of healing and expectation of recovery.Happy Holidays!
Light Shine,
Les

Les,
Thanks so much for braving the elements to post encouragement to others. (I can see your weather there – brrr!). Yes, at year’s end, it’s only natural to reflect on what the year brought (or in some cases, took) from us. I’m happy to say that 2012 brought YOU! I’ve so appreciated the honesty of your comments along with your Scottish wit. Yes, what a wild summer we had. (If you’re a new reader, feel free to read comments on this thread from July/August/September of 2012.) I remember trying to reply to comments on the open road while driving from Idaho to California. It didn’t really matter though as everyone did such a great job at continuing the conversation and supporting one another. That is truly what friends are for! Always, Jan

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290. Donna - December 27, 2012

I truly wish the very best to everyone old and new here. Here’s to all of us ending this year with clarity and a positive focus of what the New Year may bring.

I did meet a man in November and we had one date, a few phone calls and emails. So now time will till if there’s anything to this meeting, both of our holidays have been busy with family and out of town trips.

We did express some like for each other, however as they say “The ball is in his court”. Wishes for some Happy Starts and Endings for all.
Peace and Harmony,

Donna

Cheers, Donna! Yes, we shall see what the new year brings. I’m currently waylaid from knee replacement surgery, but when I’m doing my PT, I imagine hiking in Scotland. Stranger things have happened! Much love to you. Jan

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291. lesley - December 29, 2012

This goes out to Frida… yes,your marriage is your business.
I disagree with you that an open relationship is harder to sustain or require more work and communication than more exclusive bonds and indeed am possibly more aligned to Jan and source B in my view on marriage but Jan’s blog is about having the right to an opinion.(She facilitates this excellently and has done so for a long time…)
Here is mine.
Stop with the flux analogy Frida and do not call the man who damaged you ‘your Narc’.He is noone’s Narcissist. If he exists in the realm of cluster B then he doesn’t function as a human being,nor does he see you as much more than a prop in the effed up drama of his life.Exit stage left from the stage. Be honest to yourself however at how deluded you were and get angry that you were taken in?
To stop being a prop you need an anchor. You need to find your emotional boundaries apart from this man and man the barricades.
I read your first post with mixed emotions.The words rape,fights,knives do not sit well with ‘going back five times’.
I am European and would run like buggery if someone pulled a knife on me…abuse and pain ain’t a matter of geography??
So, in my opinion you need to do the work on yourself,
Narcs can be described as’dark as the abyss’ but if you go playing around the edge you will fall in?You are in love with the idealisation phase that Narcs excel at,nothing more?All is smoke and mirrors.
No Contact is excrutiating at times but the pain lessens. It’s less about the day to day than the long term benefits for you. Which take commitment to self.Your right to recovery!
Finally, what worked for me…(and you can see my comments on this stream) was humbling myself. I could not change a Narc. It was my inverted ego that kept trying. No matter how good I looked,how many books I read or how I bent this way and that in the wind…. ! Instead I took the advice from friends here…Jan and other’s got me through.
Listen to what others are telling you Frida. Who have been there and recovered. It is truly the only way,
Light Shine,
Les

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frida - December 30, 2012

dear jan, dear les, i think some things got mixed up on both sides. i´m letting that marriage thing pass, as i totally agree that it´s a “contract at heart” and as to the more or lesser work involved if one´s leading an open or “conventional” (excuse my lack of a better term..by no means meant to devalue other people´s values or decisions!) relationship – that´s open for discussion and personal POV, preference, situation and decisions prevail. i do absolutely agree with the analogy of the poisoned well and that there is nothing to gain and everything to loose. my husband always stressed the fact that all he wants is to see me happy and that i could do what i please as long as it´s not poisoning MY and OUR well. simple truth number one. that i wasn´t happy with all that happened with the N (“my” N wasn´t intended to sound like i claim ownership of this person, it was just colloquially stating that he was my personal first close encounter with this terrifying disorder) was pretty clear and my husband was likewise shocked to see me “suckered by someone so ultimately small”. i truly know who´s got my back. it´s my husband, it´s my true friends, it´s the people that allow me to stand by their side with all i am and that stand by my side with all they are. the N certainly does not. and i do not feel the need to quench my thrist from that particular well anymore..to use the analogy: Ns dry or poison YOUR well and lead you to believe that THEIR (nonexistant) well is the only well left to drink from. on a rational level, i know a lot of things now, a lot of insight is coming my way, yet i am still struggling with a lot of emotions, realisations and contradiction within me. that, i suppose, comes from being “honest to yourself however at how deluded you were and get angry that you were taken in?”, like you said les. that comes from realising how deep and mean this attack on me as a person, on my soul, heart and sanity by the N really was. and yes, it´s still that lingering illusion of the idealisation. i find myself thinking that this idealisation is not so much idealisation (in how Ns “stage” it, overplay it – yes.), Ns really see the beauty of their prey. they see all the good, true and wonderful that is you. they chase after it, lust and thrist after it..they idealise it up out of proportion to make you give and give more and more of all your good – to them. but they do not have the capacity to receive, appreciate or contain all that good. on the contrary, it makes them painfully realise that they are nothing of what they so admire in you, want from you..and eventually, they need to destroy you.

in your last paragraph, les, you said something similar to what kept me thinking last night: “what worked for me…was humbling myself. I could not change a Narc. It was my inverted ego that kept trying.” so true. last night i felt that lots of my struggling was due to wanting to change the N. to make him see me. my point. walk in my shoes, dammit. well, we all know that empathy is an ABILITY..it doesn´t come for granted and we all struggle to walk in somebody´s else´s shoes. especially when there´s conflict. now, if someone just CAN´T do that for a mental disorder – what can you do? nothing. eventually you end up fighting with your inverted ego that wants the egotistical upper hand. i felt compassion and remorse last night. and humility. it felt sad but good. a soothing softening that felt like strength. unfortunately, it also felt like i would want to tell the N that, that i wanted to tell him that i forgive him, that i´m acutally in a warped sense “grateful” for him showing me where my faultlines lie, what i am. ah well…luckily i realised that this would just turn out to be another tug on the rope. but it felt better than dreams of revenge, dreams of the illusion or dreams of smoke and mirrors. but i´m still hurting. oh, and a fun-fact to close this comment: i one of my fave movies “lawrence of arabia”, sherif ali/omar sharif says the incredible line: “he is nothing. the well is everything.” i took the quote totally out of the movie´s plot context but when i felt the final stages of D&D where coming my way, i posted this quote all over my flat..bathroom mirror, doors, fridge. just to remind me of MY well. and here you are, talking about wells. coincidence? maybe.. 😉 peace! f.

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Les - December 30, 2012

Frida,you will get there,you know that?
The lack of empathy is unfortunately a carmine red sign of a cluster B but during the illusory idealisation phase they can ape empathy perfectly.See them as Simulacra’s of Humans.
You may even feel that you have found a soulmate. I laugh out loud these days when I think back to what the Narc in my life pretended to be!!
Forgive him for you, not him. He actually doesn’t care whether you forgive him or not and any contact,including verbal expression of forgiveness would just be seen as you providing Narc supply.
One friend on here wrote to me recently lamenting the fact that none of his better nature or care or compassion had rubbed off on his ex. He, (and to a certain extent), I, also struggled with that for a long time.How can nothing make a difference?
I got insight from a post on this site by Lynette…she pointed out that the Narc imagines you to be like him? He thinks you see the world like him,plot like him,are suspicious like him and
view the rest of mankind like him?
My ex constantly accused me of faults and behaviour that he was indulging in himself. A veritable Master of Projection.
What they ‘call you on’ is actually what they are themselves?
At the end of the relationship you can accurately read in their verbal denigration of you…..the true picture of how they see themselves.
Yet still they cannot take responsibility for their behaviour?
This helped me enormously to move on. I saw the futility of our relationship and indeed every relationship he had ever been in or would engage in.
Yes, I love the film Lawrence of Arabia and got much from his book there’Seven Pillars of Wisdom’ too.
Cheers Frida

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frida - December 31, 2012

thanks les! i hope i will get there..as expected this new years eve feels weird and introspective..the N sent a message..wishing me a good year and: “i think of you occasionally and miss our real existant coincidance. don´t judge people by the masks you gave them.” sent me back to doubtsville..did i exaggerate, was i oversensitive, did i blow this outta proportion, have i falsey pathologised him, did i give or force masks on him, did i it take all too seriously, did i push him too much..??? but i know what he did. and what he did felt bad with me. and when i told him, he who claimed i was indeed his soulsister, his best friend, when i told him “you´re hurting me”, he just dismissed it. just dismissed. maybe, if i refused and pushed NC too hard, he´d promise to change. then i returned, hopeful and he continued just to go hurting me in the same manner and same spot all over again..aww well..i don´t know. wishing you all a good year! thanks for letting me rest here a bit on my way from doubtsville to clearville. peace! f.

Frida,
When you tell people who really care about you, “You’re hurting me!” They don’t dismiss you. And it’s not about “what mask” you gave him, assigned him, envisioned him as… whatever. You saw beneath the mask. Not a pretty sight.
I’m going through a lot with my elderly mother right now who has been diagnosed with dementia. While undergoing a Memory Assessment, it was noted that she lacked any insights into her “memory deficits.” As a result, she thinks she’s perfectly fine when it comes to doing everything! If we hadn’t taken the car keys, she’d be behind the wheel blissfully unaware that she’s a danger to others. My brother recently said that it was pointless for us to try and reason with her as her mental/memory deficits make this impossible for her. I can’t help but find the similarity to someone with NPD to be uncanny. Remember that, “living well is the best revenge.”
Happy New Year. Always, Jan

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292. Donna - December 29, 2012

Bravo Les, those of us who have been here for many months understand how these Narc’s can and will rape your mind, body and soul……taking a long hard look at self will reveal alot about ourselves and why these ppl got into our lives. No Contact is the key to healing in (my opinion). “To thine own self be true”!!!

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293. lesley - December 29, 2012

Hey Donna,
Hope this finds you well. Just catching up with the news. New Guy? If it’s meant for you it will happen. Let’s face it, you’ve already seen off ‘ol dead eyes’!! Have a great New Year or as we say here Happy Hogmanay!
Les

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294. Raven Seven - January 7, 2013

Hi Jan! I am so grateful to have found your blog. It has provided the final piece of a very complex jigsaw puzzle I have been trying to complete i.e. encounter with a Narcissist. Your comments and insights into Joe answered all my questions. I can now confidently say that ‘Clear vision comes from harmony of heart’. Grateful I had the encounter and grateful to be out of it.

Raven,
Clean vision and harmony of heart…priceless! Jan

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295. frida - January 7, 2013

hello everyone, dear jan & les and company.. 😉
this is another stopover from doubtsville to clearville, albeit via BS-ville, i´m afraid. the new year has started and stupid me thought that after the final D&D things would be quiet on the western front. last week started it all again..texts and texts from the N. i won´t go into detail but at first, the first few texts consisted of weak discussions and defensive justifications of our last encounter (just a glimpse here: he texted in the dead of night, staccato-command, that i should serve as an alibi with his GF for a probable fling he had. i refused, a bit mockingly, he went ballistic, D&Ded me, came back, i maintained NC, he went ballistic again, cutting all cords (blocked me on FB..all that jazz. the details plus the whole nine yards of background-story, again, would be to complicated to tell in a few words..)) so his first few texts were defensive justifications how he was sooo right and poor him, a victim of circumstance and me the bad, self-righteous, trust-betraying impostor and how he had every right to be angry. but all with a subtle subtext running along “if you´re a good girl now and apologise, i might take you back.” as i continued NC he texted again, this time downright mean..all projective stuff, turning truth around, turning facts that could actually be proven black-on-white (if i so cared to do..*sigh*) around to make me the all superbad. accusing me of behaviour that is actually ALL his behaviour. again, i wish i could give you some insight into the story details but believe me, it was shocking..he accused me of the very actions, traits, behaviour etc. that HE had/did/had done. weird, weird, weird!!! well, to cut the story short, i was lucky enough to be working a busy tradefair with my best friend..she helped me maintaining stability through this stream of texts. (her comment, reading his texts: “whom the hell is he talking about. this isn´t you! he can´t be talking about you because you´re not even remotely like anything he describes!?”) eventually i couldn´t stand it and broke NC, sending the N a polite, matter-of-fact text to leave me alone, stop contacting me as i had made my point often enough and if he´s talking about friendship, it´s also part of a friendship to respect my wish for peace. he went superballistic..more texts, more projective stuff, more aggressive accusations. it was hell. hadn´t it been for my best friend, i think i would have really broken down, broken NC again to get my word in, to justify myself, trying yet again to reason with the N, to prove his turning and twisting of truth and facts to him. although i can (partly?) see through these projections, i just don´t know why it still gets me..i always end up torn between recognising (and more and more clearly the more BS texts he sends) the psychopathic loss this N is and still blaming myself, questioning my own actions, perceptions, thinking that maybe the N is right and it´s all my fault. i thought once the N is done with you, there´s no turning back, they´re gone. why does he keep on sending those messages? (like: “i´m burning all the stuff you sent me. plus a voodoo candle. papa legba will take care of business.” aha. woooot???) why does he still contact me..he keeps telling me how bad i am, how i am to blame, how i betrayed his trust and friendship, how it´s all over now, how he´s had enough of my such and such behaviour (which is actually his behaviour?!?!) ..blabla…if i´m THAT bad, why keep on talking to me? i don´t know if the last message yesterday (“the burning helped. feel less frustrated now. if you husband´s mobile no. is xxxx tell him i´ve got nothing to tell him. but you should tell him the truth, you´re so obsessed with the truth anyway, but the truth is actually…blabla [insert hairraising turning of “the truth” here]…” and, for the record, how paranoid is that? as if my husband would care to call him..^^) was the last. he always makes it sound like it´s the last but then another “ping”…if this continues, i don´t know if i can keep NC up. maybe my pride´s eating away at me, maybe i still cling to the hope that proper reasoning might set things straight (yet i know, i tried countless times to reason. to no avail whatsoever.) why does he do this? why not shut up and call it gone for good and good riddance to me? what´s the motivation to call up these issues, to keep projecting stuff back and forth..i mean, if i´m such a bad horsie and he´s got enough good horsies to keep him entertained, why push on? oh oh. bad horsie feels very bad indeed, for all the wrong reasons. and i still miss the illusion although with each text i can see how much of an illusion it really was. but it´s tugging and tugging and tugging and tugging..thanks for listening! peace, the frida abides. f.

Frida,
He’ll keep texting you and projecting his BS onto you until he realizes he’s kicking a dead horse. Every time you get exasperated and finally reply, he gets a trickle of Narcissistic Supply. That is not No Contact. Per B.F. Skinner, that is Intermittent Reinforcement. There is no “proper reasoning” and your pride will take a hit each time you give in and respond to his rantings. Some people have had to change their number to end the abuse. As long as he’s still able to “get to you” (physically or mentally), you’re not moving on but treading water. He’s enjoying watching you flounder. Sad, but true. Jan

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Source B - January 8, 2013

Frida–

Yeah. Leave this one wriggle. Don’t respond. The attention’s probably flattering a dark corner of the old heart, somewhere, but it seriously doesn’t look worth it.

T’ween you and me, the fellow seems quite odd.

SB

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frida - January 8, 2013

“the fellow seems quite odd.” yup. i recall too much of his oddness still..the second time i tried to break up for instance..the background-story to this break-up attempt is interesting yet unimportant but during the ensuing (verbal) fight, the N suddenly said: “i would rather if we´d beat this frustration outta each other in a proper fight..” now, i am a woman with a temper and i “agreed”..out of pure frustrated desperation and total helplessness..i was in a bad place already. anyways, we met somewhere out in the woods and fought. physically. (now, you can scold me for this. you must. it was one of strangest, dumbest, craziest things i´ve done but i did it. weak excuse: i wasn´t being myself, except for the fact that i never walk away from a challenge – go figure^^) we literally beat the damn daylights outta each other. at one point i just lay on the ground, panting and weeping from sheer emotional exhaustion. N cuddles up to me, holds me, brushes the tears off my face and with a smirk asks: “i didn´t do something that hurt you, eh?” my mind blanked, i started hitting him furiously until he had me pinned down to the ground. he weighed himself down on me, whispering: “uuuh, you´re too sexy when you´re aggressive…you know, i could just rape you now.” (mind you, he knew that i barely escaped a rape some years ago.) he smiled, violently grabbed my crotch and shirt and mimed (i know now, didn´t then) classic “rape-foreplay” while i went berserk, trying to fight back and out, while my soul was mangled between “loving” this man, “wanting” this man (side-info: soon after our “thing” started, he would always withdraw from sex with me, he would always instigate it, starting it (never me) but withdrawing last minute. his trademark move. but that´s another “odd” story^^) and feeling the degradation, the sadistic monster he is and, of course, no woman wants to be raped. at last, after the elaborate, convincing “rape-foreplay-mime” he let off, things calmed down, i was in a bad trance, we went to a café, i paid for our drinks, tried again to reason with him, appeal to his heart (of which i had seen the “best” part just an hour before..haha) and he dismissed it with “geez, can´t you just see what sort of soap opera you´re making of all this?” i went home, dazed like i was on bad drugs and..continued contact! (he was downplaying it, as he did so often, as “fun”..that he didn´t mean it seriously..that it just happened negligently..) this was the second break-up attempt. there were many more to come. odd, eh? and those are just the “nice” sides of his odd because they were, in hindsight, ridiciously odd. but he had mean odd, bloody odd, dissociative odd, schizo odd and aggressive odd, pullin-a-knife-odd in store too. and all the time he would tell me how i am his best friend, his “not so platonic” soulsister, his ideal madonna, how he needs me, how i mean too much to him to destroy it by having just another mundane affair… scold me again for going back five times..that really doesn´t sit well with all he´s done to me. and the worst part..i know, no one would believe me! no one would believe he did all this brutal stuff. i know, his “friends” are not his friends, he just has superficial acquaintances (he said so himself: “i don´t have any friends here. never had. you´re my only true friend.” – red flag!!!) but i wonder if they would believe the things he´s done. for them, he´s probably just the odd arty guy with a bit of a warp..i wonder what his GF would say..surely, she must suffer just as much (i´ve got some evidence from him suggesting that, never met her tho)…would she believe me? i wish i could talk to her. ahhh, here come the vague but sweet revenge thoughts again..(and yes, he texted again today. it´s still shocking to see him turning things around, accusing me of all the BS he is and did. i still pursue NC. or rather “no reply”. maybe i really have to change my number, to go real NC and stop treading water. it´s so hard to heal, even with all the obvious hurt, the obvious facts, the obvious BS.) sorry for venting again, sorry if i´m bothering you but it needs to get out..sorry!!f.

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296. lesley - January 8, 2013

Frida, No get it out. But read it back.
You go to the woods and fight…is he the same size as you?(Surely you’d come off worst)Then he says’ I could just rape you now’…then….you go and pay for the drinks???Er What…..?
Get your head out of your arse girl!
This does sound like some bad plotline of the vampire diaries.
You’re not a teenager.Yes it is all obvious BS.
Stop playing at going NC.
If you allow the drama(YAWN)to happen it will.
Les

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Source B - January 8, 2013

Got to agree with Les. A lot of it is getting used to the idea that the drama is, in fact, deeply boring; just the idea that it was some stuff that happened, but you have better things to do now.

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297. Donna - January 8, 2013

SB, Les and Frida and my other friends here. It’s simple It doesn’t sound like to me that she (Frida) is truely trying to let this sick relationship go. We all want to help her, but from her postings she is not listening and is still under the spell cast by this very sick person. I wish her well in saving her life, because he will continue to destroy her if she lets him in any form of your life Frida. Frida please take care of yourself, your marriage and your future.
Yes, I will not comment anymore. Peace and Love in 2013!!!

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Source B - January 9, 2013

It’s hard, though, to get to the place where you can let go. I have sympathy for that. (Months, for me, of flashbacks and shocks. And, honestly, despite the strides in mindfulness, waking up in the morning is still a pretty grim experience for a few minutes until I really focus on being grateful for what I’ve got.)

I found there were three types of outrage to get over. First, at how I was treated; second, how I allowed myself to be treated. Third, at how messed up and complicit I was in not drawing boundaries properly and not allowing myself to walk away.

Learning and getting over it was a very humbling experience, and a very painful one. (Even though, in the end, you’re 100% correct — making the *decision* to let go, truly, is what it’s about.)

Love to all.

Source B,
Your three types of outrage to get over are spot on – and something we all struggle with after realizing we were “had.” It’s only natural to initially focus on the N. But then it’s time to look at ourselves to understand why once we knew something was off kilter, we kept going. The good thing is that ultimately, we can emerge with greater self awareness which also includes self forgiveness for being human. Thank you for your honesty and clarity.:) Jan

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frida - January 9, 2013

again sorry to everyone if my venting, shedding, thinking aloud bothers you..you are right, i know i need to let go and despite all BS, i am still struggling to just shrug it off, see my share in it, “get my head out of my arse” and carry on. how pathetic and dumb, sorry. i am truly at NC, not just playing it, i am trying hard and honestly to concentrate on my life, my marriage, my future, my healing. i hate it myself that my mind keeps replaying the drama, the “boring stuff” from the past but i still sometimes can´t help it happening. it´s like a flashback. i´m having lots of moments of clarity tho, increasingly thank god..helping me to understand why i would allow such drama to happen and continued getting mixed up in it, when it would have been much saner and wise to let go months ago. these are my issues alone and i´m trying to work on them, as best as i can, honestly. yet the terror still continues with increasingly paranoid and delusional texts from the N, last night, which are starting to sound and feel almost threatening..like he is accusing my husband calling him under a mobile number (which isn´t hubby´s no. it even sounds like some random number the N made up. and I KNOW my husband isn´t calling him.) and that he was/is forced to “just stalking back” and “as long as i need to do so because your to-and-fro behaviour causes me to do so.” and “you will regret it, if you keep doing this” (i haven´t been to-and-fro EVER in this relationship and have been NC for weeks, except the one plea for peace last week!) sounds like he´s either making everything up just to squeeze some reaction out of me (why? why the hell? just for a bit of NS???) or that he´s plainly shifting blame to justify his stalking me, so to say…so i will be changing my number at last, before i lash back with “intermittent reinforcement”, which would be just another means of staying inside the drama. and i know that partly i was/am(?) addicted to the drama because of my own issues which need to be tackled instead of letting this N destructively distract my energies. anyways, i don´t want anyone to feel molested or exasperated by my postings, so if you feel i abused this place in any way, i apologise! if you feel so, i ask you, jan, to take care of it and remove any- or everything as you see fit. nevertheless thanks for letting me rest and tell for just a little while and for providing help and information, jan, les, SB and donna! f.

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298. lesley - January 9, 2013

Frida…not sure what you mean by apologising. Have you read what we have been through with cluster B’s and emerged out the other side?Hah, Jan is the least censoring or naive person I know…you can tell it how it is?
Noone here feels molested or abused(by you or your history I’m guessing)..so no need to apologise or escalate anyone’s reactions.
I do not feel exasperated by your postings. I call you out on your honesty though.?
Listen, you are not No Contact.Jan is right.
This means that your phone if needbe is in bin and you have transferred your contact details to new phone.Email is changed and I personally moved house and city.
You have insight I can tell, in how the ‘hooks’ work.
Love is not drama,aggression,abuse, not following through on promises,mind effery,it’s not fisticuffs in forest.
If you are in some reciprocal sado masochistic deal with this guy so be it.You seem to be in emotional pain but do not have the strength to let go.Work on your own issues if you know what they are.
If not work on what they are?
We are all travelling the same journey.We just stop off at different points for a while and primrose paths are not always full of primroses.
I do feel like Donna…that if this guy called on you…you’d come a running.
If you had really experienced a Narc…then this would not be the case.
Once you have been through it you do not invite Cluster B back at the table.
We are saying to you Frida,get out while you can. It get’s worse not better.
There are folk who have done 25 years with a Narc on Jan’s site. There is no naivety or outrage here.
Your story has no shock value. It is sad. Come on board.
Les..

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frida - January 11, 2013

dear les, i think my over-apologising might be caused by my mental and emotional wobbles..i feel like i´m actually starting to finally become really oversensitive and a bit needy..like i caught N-virus..but i´m fighting back..so, you´re calling me out on my honesty: been pondering about that. and the NC resolve. i´m afraid that truly there is still a wicked, stupid part of me that wants to kinda maintain contact, may it be for the futile hope of finally talk reason into the N, finally find a way to connect, to get my point across, to help him heal, to return to the illusion of phase 1 or to get revenge, get even, make him pay. tons of perfectly idiotic reasons, i rationally know. yes, deepdown i´m afraid you are right about that. and i am fighting that too, trying to be honest and clear with myself and don´t BS myself. whenever i´m having one of these “maybe he´s right, maybe it was me being the guilty party” – moments, i recall all the brutal treatment, the cold hoops of fire, his general BS-central and that helps reminding me of my obligation towards me to set myself free. and no, i am NOT in some reciprocal SM deal with this N, for the record.

one question tho: you doubt that i was involved with a N. now, as i said, diagnosing from afar can´t be done. yet my continuous doubts are equally fed by “if he isn´t a N, even if the facts and my experience match down to the proverbial T, then maybe i am wrong and he is right.” i know, actually it doesn´t really matter if he is a N. what he´s done is enough, i know how it felt and what it did to me and that it was way beyond my boundaries and that alone should be enough to cut the cord and protect myself.
but if you say that “If you had really experienced a Narc…then this would not be the case.Once you have been through it you do not invite Cluster B back at the table.”, do you mean that the fact i´m still hanging ´round doubtsville on and off is a telling sign that he isn´t a N? or that i haven´t had enough already and am toying with going back for more sweet abuse? or, my recent favourite of tormenting thoughts, that deepdown i enjoyed this wicked drama just as much as the (alleged) N did? if so, for what reasons, i keep asking myself? was i bored, needed the excitement, wanted a bit of colorful ghoulish plotlines in my life? that scares me. really does. all i wanted was to like him, love him even, give, receive and enjoy this wonderful connection that i felt at first, that, as i know now, was so elaborately staged. sorry if these are dumb questions..i keep asking them myself! ah, before i forget: i ran across this article that explained the biochemistry behind N and borderline manipulation. in short, it said that in phase 1 the perfectly staged illusion of idealisation gives your brain an endorphine high way above “avarage” falling-in-love intoxication. the first round of D&D gives you cold turkey and blinded by the addiction, your brain relishes in the adrenaline rush of constant drama during the – equally cleverly orchestrated by the abuser – D&D cycle. so, if you can´t replay the inital endorphine high, your addicted brain settles for the other adrenaline rush: the constant drama. does that make sense? it kinda does to me..however, i´m not shifting responsibilities to biochemistry..just trying to wade thru.

and one last word. considering other´s experiences, married-to-a-N-with-kids, decade-long abuse etc., my weird fling seems sad, ridiculous peanuts. it is. i ventured here and out of silently-reading-along just because it feels clarifyingly good to talk to people that don´t dismiss my experience with “it´s just a bit of heartbreak, get over it” and who help me understanding why it´s exactly not “a bit of heartbreak”, without overexaggerating into drama territory. i´ve never been in a place like this before and i´ve had my share in “a bit of heartbreak” and personal and emotional challenges. this is different, is all i can say and it scares me. but, i feel, i´m growing. i hope. thanks & peace! f.

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299. Source B - January 11, 2013

“i´ve never been in a place like this before and i´ve had my share in “a bit of heartbreak” and personal and emotional challenges. this is different, is all i can say and it scares me.”

I understand. Or, I should say, I have some understanding.

The difference, for me, in my relationship with my ex, was that over the years I’d grown a little. I’d understood that she was pushing my buttons, being controlling and I even had a dim kind of understanding that this was abusive (I actually remember the moment when I thought: “Hm. You know … if I didn’t love this woman, I’d kinda-think-maybe-this-is-a-bit-like-sort-of-torture kind of thing…”). If I’d not realised how I was being trained (eek!) then I might have put up with it for much longer.

And if I *had* put up with it for much longer, then God only knows what kind of state I’d be in today.

It sounds to me like you had a great deal of attention paid to you, that you responded to this (it’s not unnatural), and that this oaf managed to worm his way right through your mind. Darker parts of you responded to that, you felt special and validated (triggering ones own narcissism — it’s in everyone somewhere, I’m afraid) and then it all got into a terrible mess.

So, it looks like the fellow managed to elude most of your defenses. It’s no surprise–at all–that you’re feeling extraordinarily vulnerable to him, although he is a nutter.

Unpicking ‘him’ means unpicking parts of ‘you’, too. That’s a very unfair thing–it feels unfair!–but it’s a real part of the process of healing and growing.

Good luck with this. You have your eyes, and your hands. They’re still there in front of you. Practice choosing what you want to look at, and try to steer away from looking at him, or the shadow or memory of him.

Best wishes

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300. lesley - January 11, 2013

Hi Frida/Source B,
Frida to clarify I don’t think I’m suggesting you haven’t been with someone Narcissistic/Very Dark… I think I’m saying that you haven’t reached your particular’Bottom Level’ yet?
The place where you look up from a personal gutter and say ‘No More?’
This place is different for all of us but- positively- it is the place we move on and upwards from and perhaps manage to rescue ourselves from?
I find myself questioning your language at times.’Sweet Abuse’….?
Like Source B says this relationship has provided you(and we have all been there)with attention,challenge,off kilter feelings,extreme emotion,desire……addiction?
Why does feeling like that feel like’Love’ for you, It’s part of Love for sure, but what about trust,true intimacy,comfort,empathy,consistency of behaviour,reliability?
If the second list seems boring to you Frida…ask yourself why?
Your biochemistry of Love description is spot on.I recognised this in myself some years ago and it was ultimately partly this recognition that saved me from a longer spell with the Narc in my life.
The other part was being able to compare the relationship to other long term commitments I’d had,like my marriage?There was no comparison.
Source B/the analogy of the unpicking parts of you out is terribly helpful to me. Now and then you still find an old thread waiting to be removed? We were indeed woven into them for a while,perhaps by their artifice or needs but recognising how we also responded in turn is crucial…
Finally,what worked for me was questioning what kept this Narc wanting me? I realised that his motivation as a Somatic Narc wasn’t the sexual infidelity to me but it was the deceit itself that gave him his essential high?
In setting me in place, (on the sometime pedestal) as his ‘Life Partner’ he could denigrate me daily and secretly if he so chose, as he had done with every woman he had apparently committed to for decades.
This was my personal tipping point.
You will reach yours Frida,hopefully soon and then NC will become easier and an imperative,
Light Shine
Les

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301. frida - January 12, 2013

les, source b..thank you! there´s a lot food for thought in your comments and a lot of truth! i feel that the notion of addiction to the attention, challenge, extreme emotion, desire, general drama etc. is spot on. yes, i fear i´m guilty as charged. basically it triggers ones own narcissism, just like source b said. it´s like first they trap you with it and next you find yourself trying to fight them at their own game. (which is partly where the N-virus comes from. suddenly you find yourself craving attention, doing all sorts of weird stunts to “get” to the N, to cravingly question why they keep wanting you when their behaviour suggests they don´t want/cherish you at all…etc.etc.) my hubby used to comment that he feels that N was always trying to drag me down to his level because he could not rise up to mine, which rings a bell with jan´s quote of “being suckered by someone ultimately so small”, with how one finds oneself constantly lowering personal boundaries, making excuses for the N etc. which is basically going down on their level in the futile hope to somehow make ends meet.

les, you said: “recognising how we also responded in turn is crucial”…

i´m reading this amazing book at the moment: “you are not a gadget” by jaron lanier. although it´s basically a critique of anti-humanistic paradigms of the digital age, i found this quote very enlightening: “you can´t tell if a machine has gotten smarter or if you´ve just lowered your own standards of intelligence to such a degree that the machine seems smart (…)” this set me thinking that one´s constantly lowering one´s own standards of right (or values, or boundaries, or definitions of love…) to fit the N in. eventually you find yourself questioning yourself, thinking you are wrong because (weirdly!) you´ve lowered your standards so much, (read: gone down on their level) you are kinda wronging (and fooling!) yourself. a classic catch-22. i guess that´s also part of the wicked devaluation..it´s not just them devaluing you, you´re devaluing yourself! and it also goes hand in hand with the N destroying the unruly mirror, how Ns “wouldn´t join a club that would have them” and how they hate you for being all they are not (loving, vibrant, sensitive, generous, full-of-life, successful, creative, whatever really). funny, Ns desparately look for all the qualities the N craves and those qualities are exactly those that wouldn´t allow you to make room in your club for the sorry N, then they start the D&D game and eventually drag you down to their level (somehow, at least until you hit “bottom level”) and they hate you for falling for their game and lastly kill you off, because you´ve become the dreaded reality-check of their dreaded lost selves.

i´m still thinking about the, however fleeting and idiotic, danger to go back for more “sweet abuse” (t´was more intended irony btw. but maybe “cum grano salis”..^^) no. no…the countless times i´ve been crying my eyes out, screaming “no more” and still lowering my boundaries, my standards..aww, geez.. it´s truly a dark place. i hope with increasing insight and clarity, i´ll never allow myself to go down on the (any!) Ns level (the D&D after each return becomes ever more vicious..ever realised that?) again. btw, it´s been quiet on the western front, good thing. and come to mention it: if they´d been just a middle-of-the-road playboy, who´s been just about “wine you-dine you-sixtynine you” or a regular guy, realising the relationship just didn´t work out, they wouldn´t keep on stalking, texting, harrassing you to no ends with petty, mean or downright paranoid stuff long after the cut´s been done. that alone is telling testament to their warped, sick minds. ´nuff said.

thanks for food of thought! i´m unpicking with your help, cheers! peace! f.

PS: definitions of love, addiction to extremes, bored by emotional hum-drum, meaning of trust, true intimacy..more food, more thought..i´m processing but luckily “i am not a gadget.” 😉

Frida,
As I think I mentioned, I was an art major. In college, whenever bad/crazy sh&t happened, I often minimized it by telling myself that an artist’s life was destined to be full of tragedy and craziness. At the time, I believed that “suffering” only made an artist stronger/more creative? Since I’d grown up in a “normal” and loving family, I remember thinking that I was in some way “disadvantaged?” I was saddled with that romanticized view that drama and even ugliness was somehow more “real.” On one hand this allowed me to dismiss being dumped by boyfriends, etc., but on the other, it is a very skewed view or the world that quite possibly elevates drama and dysfunction to an “art?” I’d SO gotten over this when the N came into my life. I did find that despite his aversion to “drama” that he actually thrived on it. And I too found myself often upping the ante to keep the level of intrigue high and to hold his attention. I was quite aware of what I was doing. Plotting a strategic move to get the desired response. Just wondering if any of this sounds familiar.
Always, Jan

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frida - January 14, 2013

yes jan, sounds terribly familiar. 😦 sounds also a bit julia cameron, “the artist´s way”..the romantic ideal of the tormented artist – NOT! phew! 😉 “upping the ante to hold attention”, also fatally familiar..like i was trying all sorts of somehow “tactical” means to finally get to his heart which i hoped HAD to be somewhere, while my gut instinct (and his actions) told me there´s NOTHING there. this is also what i mean by trying to beat them at their own game..how the N-virus kinda rubs off to you, albeit you actually want to really connect, they just want to use, abuse and manipulate. oh well… cheers & peace! f.

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302. Melinna - January 23, 2013

Hi Jan, my life has been recently turned upside down as a result of my close encounter with a narcissist. I had a beautiful little girl with the narcissist and we are currently in court. I found that so much of what you have written speaks exactly to what I went through. Among other things three things jumped out at me from this particular blog. My ex was also into “The Secret” for a while, he showed me the DVD. He does not like to read. The bit where you said about drama has caused me so much distress because like your narcissist friend my ex expressed dislike for drama when he was clearly the cause of the drama. The reason it caused me so much distress is that I am such a soft spoken person so it completely threw me when he first started telling me that I am a nag and a drama queen. I figured out that he had NPD late last year and I have been very vocal about it. I even told him that he is a sociopath. He later told me that I manipulated him into thinking that there was something wrong with him. I have told anyone that has asked what happened that I believe he is a narcissist and I do get strange looks and all kinds of excuses as to why I am wrong. No one wants to hear about it. It’s like I am speaking a foreign language that sounds like all the adults in the Charlie Brown cartoon.

Melinna,
This is painful to read because it is all too familiar. And since I do play the Charlie Brown video at Thanksgiving for my students, that reference is too perfect. Understand that because you’ve been up close and personal with him, you’ve seen things that others haven’t. Even after “Joe” vanished from my life, one woman who’d known him way longer than I had said, “Oh, I always liked “Joe.” I couldn’t help but feel hurt as I’d told her many of the horrible things he had said to me. So you might want to dial it back a notch in telling others “what” he is as they often think you’re shouting “Fire!” in a crowded theater. It’s been five years now and I do have people (who knew Joe) who’ve read my blog and now ask me intelligent questions about narcissism. This was a long time coming.
You didn’t mention whether you’re in the middle of a divorce. If so, find an attorney who understands NPD. Surround yourself with friends/support people who DO know what you’re going through. The commenters on my blog have provided an incredible education to me by sharing their stories. And you don’t have to try and convince them that the abuse is real. Please keep in touch and keep your head up. You will survive and ultimately triumph. Always, Jan

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303. Chris - January 23, 2013

Hi all, just getting caught up here. I have to say that I agree with a lot of Lesley’s posts to frida, and when I read the story of the fight in the woods I was thinking (just as Lesley said), that frida….you need to go back and read what you have written!

While doing so, think about if a friend of yours you love told you the same story with them being in your place. That is some weird sh*t!

And you said to scold you for going back to that nutjob several times so I guess I am. I hope it is helpful in opening your eyes and making you somehow become stronger against him and his freakiness that you seem attracted to (unconsciously or consciously).

And I’m sorry but open marriages are “odd” to some of us. Just having one spouse or significant other can sometimes seem more than enough 🙂 !

frida, if you posted about it, I may have missed it, but would you share what your childhood like growing up? Did your parents have a successful open marriage?

As always, only share what you are comfortable with. And Jan, if I come across to harsh, please edit or delete as you see fit. I know people are hurting from their encounters with these creeps and I don’t want to add to the hurt.

Chris,
I try not to edit my commenters’ posts. Usually if people blatantly cross the line, I just delete their comment rather that put lipstick on the pig. You’re coming in late in the discussion. Although I, too, find the concept of an Open Marriage odd, I figure, “Whatever works.” But of course, then the next thought is, “Well, something is not working here.” We’d sort of agreed to disagree about that. At least, that’s my recollection. That’s a whole other issue, but I do understand how you’re intrigued as to how someone would come to such an agreement. Jan

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304. frida - January 27, 2013

hi everyone! i´ve been taking some time off recently, to help the “unpicking process”..been sorting stuff, cleaning house and taking some general off time to clear mind, space, studio and physique. i´m still having a hard time sometimes, sometimes missing, sometimes crying, sometimes blaming, sometimes flaming but i guess it´s getting better. also, some new pieces of the puzzle have popped up, making the whole encounter in hindsight yet creepier…ugly stuff! ugh! but all is quiet on the western front, so i´m allowed to unpick in peace.

so chris, i am totally aware that the concept of an open marriage doesn´t sit right with some people. there are many fallacies, rightful doubts and trap-doors of this concept that i am keenly aware of. but there are also chances, enrichment, openness and truth to be gained. that said, i want to re-emphasise that neither my hubby nor me forced the concept unto each other to give oneself carte blanche for whatever (egotistical? narcissistic?) urges we´d love to entertain.
we all know that, married or not, the are no guarantees or everlasting security, we all, along the long winding road of a relationship, may fall into tempation´s booby traps or may find somebody who resonates with us on a deeper personal level, romantically, spiritually, sexually. whenever that happens, there´s always reason to resist, question, discuss, refrain, discipline, reflect and act.
as we see it, as long as one is open and in “no-BS” mode and as long as there are rules and an open, honest communication within the relationship, there is hardly a reason for jealousy. we´ve been married ten years, together for fifteen. our bond is strong and honest and we are constantly evolving together, communicating, working on this bond. there´s been many instances where this openness worked for us. yes, we´ve had flings or one-nite stands. very, very few. some we openly talked about, some we didn´t mention. do i think this physical infidelity harms our relationship, him or me? in this instance, no. i know that it was what it was for what it was. it´s nothing to do with our marriage, our bond, our connection. and i have to again emphasise that neither him or me jump at each and any flirt or chance to check if the carpet matches the drapes..this is so NOT about promiscuity!
we´ve both had other partners, more than flings. he had one, me had one. these we talked about. in depth, openly. this was by no means easy. but we communicated everything..why we feel for the other partner, what we feel, how we feel, how and if this affects hubbys or mine feelings about each other and our relationship. we drew lines in the sand, made reciprocal deals, moves of trust, made boundaries clear, tried to understand, explain and be understood. (and we did so likewise openly with our other partners!) bottomline: both partners are still part of our lives. none of them are sexual partners anymore. it just evolved past that. for instance, i´m pretty close friends with hubby´s former girlfriend and my former boyfriend, who´s one of my dearest male friends, is equally my hubby´s mate.

what is jealousy? i think it´s basically insecurity. it can even be a form of control by emotional proxy (just like an N, engineering constant insecurity, jealousy etc. by coordinated spreading of chaos, drama, lies and BS..). i find, that as long as i know that i am not being lied to, BS-ed, as long as i know where i stand, as long as i am being respected, my boundaries too!, as long as i know what´s going on and why and as long as this openness is mutual and loving, i have no reason for jealousy or (personal!) insecurity. for me, this is an enriching experience (but not for everyone and certainly not easy. but what is? 😉 .

as for chris asking about my childhood. well, i do come from an unconventional family. no, my parents haven´t had an open marriage. in fact, they only married after i got married…haha. yet my childhood was a bit chaotic, lot´s of seventies hippiesh**, a family of artists, non-conformists. so yes, maybe in THAT regard i´m a tad imprinted 😉 but it was never too unstable. it was a mostly good and healthy childhood, despite the flavour of the era, but there are indeed issues with myself that stem from my childhood, namely my mother. unpicking, anyone?

going back to my marriage and my close encounter with the N: yes, i keep asking myself WHY i would fall for this N, going back too often, not keeping up my boundaries..etc. if i´m so good at keeping and cherishing boundaries in my marriage, why wouldn´t i with the N? if my marriage is all that peachy, why fall for the N at all? why pursuing this N-thing if i could just turn to someone else, if i wanted just a bit of entertainment, distraction or maybe some drama? couldn´t have been just the excitement or distraction, right? these questions are all part of the unpicking process..as is thinking about my open marriage, the pros and cons, our relationship in general, being challenged about my emotions, will, perceptions and actions and mommy^^..yes, jan “maybe something is not working here”..but i don´t feel or think it´s the marriage/open marriage exclusively. but, i have to think through and unpick that too.

oh, and to give you a N-related funfact for giggles or shivers: what do you make of the fact that the N has several, all-female fake profiles on FB goin, all of which are actually him and all those female “friends” are doing is liking his posts, even commenting favourably (flirtatious soliloquies, anyone?) and that even his alleged GF, tho she is apparently a real person with whom he was/is involved in whichever way, is virtually an N-fabricated persona who the N used as excuse, reason and pawn to fit his storytelling? proof has come my way..WTF? so much, i´m off taking my surplus stuff to oxfam..clear space, clear mind! peace! f.

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Source B - January 27, 2013

Ohhh … I think I see the problem, Frida. You have a sense of (admittedly, complex) boundaries based on love, trust and different levels of intimacy.

A narcissist *won’t* have those. Won’t see them. He’ll be perfectly happy to just charge right through.

I think I understand the attraction of watching this fellow’s Facebook (though, as lesley says, it’s DEFINITELY better not to). It must be like watching the most bizarre fiction taking place in front of your eyes.

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305. lesley - January 27, 2013

Hey Frida and Chris,
First off Chris hope you’ve managed to deal with that Narc of yours and his awful ways with his wife and family.?
Frida. I accept your choice of partnership and lifestyle. However I just wanted to add that it doesn’t matter if you are open,polygamous,polyamourous,monogamous or swerve the whole thing in favour of asexuality!
A Narc is a Narc.
You seem to be unpicking yourself healthily and in order to get him the eff out of your life which is good to hear? I see you moving on!
Your Mommy story…did it involve inconsistency and drama,did it involve let downs and not knowing where you stood?Did it involve anticipating bad behaviour or feeling out of your depth. If so…stay with it girl….you may be on a route to understanding?
We repeat what we know to be love?
Sometimes a Narc is incidental,see him like this on the way to deeper self discovery?
Frida….do not look at his facebook.You got more than the proof you need about this one. Believe it. Go be creative.Return to yourself. It’s enough for a while?

Light Shine Les

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frida - January 28, 2013

good monday morning y´all! no, i am not looking at the N´s FB at all..i´m banned, remember?! proof fell in place after a talk with a friend..but whatever..the sheer range of derangement still gives me the major creeps..as for bizarre fiction: feels a bit like alice in wonderland vs. the matrix with me, wondering “how deep the rabbithole actually is”. which was part of the wicked attraction for sure. but i expected substance somewhere in the dark corridors and never expected it to be so..INSANE! .and yes, source b, he barged right thru all boundaries like an emptysaurus in a china shop^^

as for mommy. so, mom. very dominant female. strong woman. certainly egoistic. i was somewhat of the “golden child”..talented, intelligent, promising. as much as i was nurtured, it was only within the limits of what mom considered valueable. she´d go boasting about my accomplishments to others if it fitted her scheme but if i failed or strayed off the path..geez! bad times were ahead. i recently picked up a folder of drawings and mementos i did as i child. as i thumbed thru them with my best friend sitting next to me, she picked out several of my drawings which had a message to mom (always the same message..?!) scrawled on the back: “dear mom, i did this little drawing for you..do you love me again, please?” my friend was positively shocked..”did you have to play the child prodigy to make your mom love you?”, she asked. it never occured to me before but it made perfect sense..yes, mom´s very selfcentered..she´s absolutely a perfectionist. did i mention that she took over my wedding party? hubby and me had a very clear concept but she would subtly interfere on every level..on the day she made a constant drama about everything: color of napkins, sitting plan, music, decoration. i was busier calming my mom down than celebrating. during the evening´s party, which hubby and me wanted less formal, more wild clubbing (needless to say, mom wasn´t happy ´bout that and kept nagging^^), she took me aside and revealed that mom & dad had finally secretly married too and that we´re happily celebrating a double wedding now. i literally fainted. she took the mike, annouced the news, all cheers and suddenly it was not hubby´s and mine wedding anymore.. go figure.

so..i think that “i need to be perfect, i´m the prodigy child, ever creative, ever intelligent, ever witty, ever beautiful, ever successful, ever giving, ever accomplished” is deeply ingrained with me. part of that definately went into the N-thing..remember how he idealised me? “cosmopolitan lady..sooo creative..soo successful..sooo intellectually accomplished..” yep, i´m all of the above. cue the devaluation and i tried harder and harder: “see me doing that? wanna in on my new project? want my ideas, my creative lifeblood – here you are. do you love me now? see me listening to your hollow soliloquies, see me taking it all in? do you like me now? see me taking all your BS, madness and violations with gallant composure, see the grand lady in action? do you respect me now? i´ve written a song, a poem for you (i did!^^) – do you like me now? i´ve given you a handmade gift plus handmade wrapping that took me two days to make – do you appreciate me now?” *sigh*

yes, les..reading back what i´ve just written..you are quite right i´m afraid. i partly repeated what i knew as love. sad. and i feel a surge of regret and rage and shame for being so easily had, so played, so..needy and infantile..^^
sorry for ranting away at length again..time for calming TEA in my sparkly new studio! 😉 cheers to all! have a great week! peace! f.

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Lesley - January 30, 2013

Oh Frida that couldn’t have been easy on your Wedding Day…to have someone,your own Mother…push in on your space.so inappropriately.
Your description of her is certainly of a Narcissist…she set up hoops for you to jump through and you in turn validated yourself by jumping to please Mum.You were a child though…that’s the difference.

You know the ever accomplished,ever beautiful,ever creative…sometimes you just got to get off the bus.
After all you are just a passenger and noone should be a passenger in their own life.

You absolutely will maintain the creative,daring,exciting part of you…for your own sake and joy. Yes?
To conform to anyone else’s expectations…no,that’s empty effort.
I done a lot of work on myself in my thirties(I’m in my forties now) and after my Narc experience I seriously wondered whether I’d lost this groundwork…but I haven’t.
Ten years ago… I went back to my foundations,lots of early stuff and made peace with it as best I could. I forgave bits and pieces without forgetting or discarding the learning? I know it sounds cliched but I was fairly specific at incidents and family dynamics that needed working through.
When I was Narked,,,eventually this learning kicked in again. It hadn’t been lost to him.
My’foundations’ amazingly held firm. My recovery began.
When all is said and done…your experience with this guy/manchild/drama king…is a learning opportunity and a watershed moment?

LS
Les

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306. Trapped no more! - February 3, 2013

Hi Lesley, it has been a while and I just wanted to check in. My evening primroses are not blooming…it is the dead of winter here in Southern CA, although the past few days haven’t seemed so. I’ve been overloaded with school work, taking 15 units this quarter on top of the full-time job. As a result, I have little time for any side reading or web browsing at all.

I’ve kept clear of the N, although he has made many attempts. He is still seeing the married “girlfriend” and still trying to get whatever he can on the side of that. He recently got a hold of me and asked if we could just be “friends”. I told him he was never even a friend to me, that friends treat each other better than he ever treated me. I gave him a few other choice words about what an aimless, worthless, loser he was (in a carefully worded e-mail). He responded “POINT TAKEN. THANKS.” (all capital letters) and I haven’t heard a thing since. I know, I know, NO CONTACT. But by this point, I was sick of getting phone calls out of the blue (even after so much time, they left me rattled). It seems to have done the trick.

I’ve moved offices so my extension is new and he does not know it. He doesn’t know exactly where I work, either. I’ve joined a gym which is out of this area (on my way to work) so I don’t run my normal routes and I basically am not out in the area where I live anymore (between school, work, gym) so he never could run into me. In sum, I think I’ve finally, after over three years, ditched the guy. Amazing.

One quick N story for all those: I found out he had my phone number in his phone under the name “Sam” (not my name, of course). This, of course, was in case his “girlfriend” discovered his phone. Sneaky. Deceitful. I wondered how many other women’s names he had coded in his phone?

How do I feel finally? A sense of bitterness still, which means he still has a tiny bit of power over me. This is gradually waning. I am past that “kicking myself” part. My philosophy is that we need to “get through that” (whatever “that” is) in order to get to here. Whatever “that” was, makes us stronger and had a purpose though it may not be readily apparent.

I am not seeing anyone, nor do I have the urge. For now, I am immersing myself in my doctoral studies and just focusing on getting through this quarter.

That’s all. I hope you, too, are similarly healing(ed). Time to change and take a run. I think 5 AM on a Sunday is relatively safe to be out and about in my area (as far as not running into a sick N). Sad that I am a prisoner in my own area, but this won’t last for much longer. Plus, this is an absolutely beautiful time to be out! Owls, slight breeze, and very quiet!

Take care, TNM

TNM,
Yes, it’s the “dead of winter” in SoCal. My friend Lesley from England is arriving today for a 10-day visit and I felt the need to plant pots of spring flowers so as not to disappoint. I have promised her that she can pick oranges off the tree in front to mix with gin. >wink< Wow, you DO have your plate full with your doctoral studies. Good for you! And your final message must have struck a chord as he's got his tail between his legs. Tell it like it is. Living well is the best revenge.
Sometimes, it's just moving forward that keeps us sane even though you're not sure where you're going. At least, you're not going THERE (as in backwards). You sound like you're in a much better place and I'm just impressed that you have the discipline to get up so dang early. I've got a raucous flock of parrots outside at the moment – an owl sounds almost other worldly. It's so lovely to hear from you. Always, Jan
One more thing, the N in my life had me programmed into his phone as “New York.” Just think of all the other cities he had in there as well!

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307. lesley - February 3, 2013

Hey TNM…
I am so glad to hear you are free of him…the coded names on the phone,typical and hilarious!
Jan is sending me pics of her orange tree from California which was torturous during our recent snowfall!
Best of luck with your Doctorate,
Future Peace to you…
Light Shine,
Les

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308. Donna - February 3, 2013

It’s so nice to see both Lesley and TNM here and doing so well.

Love and Peace,
Donna

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309. frida - February 4, 2013

hi everyone..felt like a monday check-in. it´s been a good week, cleaning out continues and i´ve finally started to paint again, which i haven´t really done over the last 15 months or so. too busy doin the dance..don´t even ask 😉 so les, i am literally “training” myself to “maintain the creative,daring,exciting part of you…for your own sake and joy”. i think i really need to “re-train” that somehow.

been unpicking too. had a sit-down with a therapist, just casual talk really, but he made an interesting point about my mom seeming like a narc-mom and in the course of my “hoop-jumping” childhood my (natural?) narcissism turned into what he termed “violated narcissism” (my needy (?) showering others/the N with affection/patience/attention/lowering of boundaries etc.) which went into the N-thing. the catch-22 was the N´s (as far as the therapist dared to tell) “malicious and grandiose narcissism”..the basic hook and – presto! – roll on the drama..^^ stuff to think about, although i feel very uncomfortable with it. sounds so much like this concept of “inverted narcissism” and i´m not sure what to make of that.

other than that, i´ve been pondering my own rage and “hate” and fistclenching, dissapointed aggression i´m feeling towards the N and the whole situation. i think that´s also to do with my own, albeit “violated/injured”, narcissism. feel really bad about that..gets me the most. that if i hadn´t been so needy, so set on getting the/a desired reaction, so unaccepting towards his being-just-so and so kinda (self?)righteous and judgemental in my action and reactions towards the N, maybe we would have found that common, reciprocal ground? i know, maybe that´s still the illusion-fed wishful thinking, maybe some blame-taking, maybe some weird denial on my part again, denial of the real, scary BS i´ve been put thru. but the idea that the N triggered my own “bad” narcissism and that i may have been too full of myself too eats away at me quite a bit. 😦
also, i felt this strong urge again to write the N, to let him in on my new POV, to let him know that i know i wasn´t all that right in my actions and reactions with him and that i regret/pity the “fatal” constellation of hurt, defense mechanisms, fear, anger, want, will and desires we clashed in…etc.etc. maybe the urge came on because it was his birthday and i threw out his bday gift with my last surplus clutter. nope. i didn´t give in. NC ongoing. but still..

yeah, i know..no tug on the rope. maybe i´m still not letting go. maybe i´m hurt by him finally letting go so easily. (thinking: “oh, it´s THAT insignificant to you, so easy to move on past me, after telling me i was such an important, meaningful person in your life?”..illusion, smoke and mirrors..i know *sigh*)

did anyone else go through that? that “softening” phase..when you see your own faults, your alledgedly “real blame” and soften up? it feels weird, ´cause partly it´s quite nagging, partly it´s so much better than that “you ****** hurt me, you *********** ripped my guts out, i´m not buyin your BS anymore and good riddance!” stance. hard to find the right balance.
well, thoughts of the weekend. thanks again and wishing everyone here a great week! peace, f.

Frida,
“Maybe we would have found that common, reciprocal ground?” is wishful thinking as that “ground” is quicksand. FYI: My mother could be very self-centered and trounced my personal boundaries without a second thought (it’s only as an adult that I realized this). The Inverted Narcissist is someone who has come to accept the abuse/neglect meted out by a narcissist as a normal way of being. A rather twisted Yin and Yang. As a result, they can ONLY find “happiness” when in a relationship with a narcissist. It’s familiar terrain…emotional comfort food if you will. If you’ve been married for 15 years, this doesn’t sound like you unless you were always hankering for a side of verbal abuse.
I’m afraid the “softening” you describe usually is a result of realizing you misjudged the person and expected more of them than they could give. It also allows them to wiggle off the hook for some of their bad behavior. You start to believe that it was YOU who might have thrown fuel on the fire. If only… It’s endless and fruitless.
I would advise you not to write a letter as this guy could care less about your newly found insights. In Marie-France Hirigoyen’s book “Stalking the Soul – Emotional Abuse and the Erosion of Identity,” she talks about how women in particular have this urge to write a letter and then are disappointed when there’s no response. I highly recommend this book by the way. I got a used copy on Amazon.
Finally, it’s great to hear you’re painting again. Creativity is a great salve for the the soul. Seriously, check out the book. The chapter on Confusing Communication is worth the price alone.
Always, Jan

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Source B - February 4, 2013

“that if i hadn´t been so needy, so set on getting the/a desired reaction, so unaccepting towards his being-just-so and so kinda (self?)righteous and judgemental in my action and reactions towards the N, maybe we would have found that common, reciprocal ground? ”

No. Sorry.

You’re still thinking about this guy as if he’s *capable* of give-and-take. You have to divest yourself of this assumption. They can’t do it.

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lesley - February 4, 2013

Well said Source B…Frida,your journey should be about self-recovery not continued ruminating on’what if’ scenarios with this man.You are not the Exception to the Rule that can cure him?
There are no hoops left to jump through…
Also,remember that the similar hoops that you felt compelled to jump through when you were a child with your Mother happened when you were a child and not responsible.
If you failed to please…it was not your fault…

However,now as an adult you can make a better choice?

LS
Les

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310. Donna - February 4, 2013

I have to agree with Source B and Les, they are not capable of a give and take or mutually benefical relationship. Their minds are sick and only want what a child’s mind wants and can get by manipulation and control over others…….

Has anyone heard anything from Phil835, he was a great support and help to me last summer. Jan please let me know that he is still OK.

It is what it is whether we like it or not. Life moves and goes on…..

Just Me, Donna

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lesley - February 8, 2013

Hey Donna,
Just thought I’d mention that Phil is fine… I heard from him off blog recently and he sends his best wishes to you and all his friends here.He actually posted last week to Jan about her knee operation…..it’s under her ’28 days Later’ post and pretty funny!

Have a Great Weekend,All,
Les

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311. CVL - February 8, 2013

I have read practically every blog here about narcissism and I am still struggling whether my husband is a narcissist. I am thinking he is just plain evil. He incessantly (17 years) made me feel miserable. He had no respect for me or my feelings, he ignored most, if not all, my attempts to discuss our issues, and he did everything he wanted when he wanted regardless if it hurt me. He has also cheated on me several times. He abuses alcohol and I have a strong gut feeling that he is now into drugs. I have asked him to leave over three months ago, the final straw was when I found out that he was pawning my jewelry. That made me feel really betrayed. I knew he wasn’t a nice guy, but I was never expecting him to go that low. It was such a loser move that I could no longer ignore. To this day, he refuses to apologize for stealing and pawning my jewelry, my catching him red handed didn’t matter. He desperately tried to justify it with his usual twisted logic. I feel so stupid having waited this long to finally wake up from this horrible nightmare.

Initially, he tried to convince me to take him back and that he would change. I partially (would see him on weekends) agreed to this but it made me realize that nothing was going to actually change. He sent me disturbing text messages. Sometimes it scares me to think that he could be stalking me. I am certain that I do not want him back, he has drained me emotionally & physically; I do not want to go through that ever again. With him or anybody. What I now worry about are the children, we have three. He picks them up every weekend and it makes me very uncomfortable. I know he doesn’t care much about them and that he is most probably using them to get back at me. He knows they are my world. He knows that I get anxious when they are with him. And I can imagine him gloat over my lack of power to stop him from seeing the kids. There’s nothing I can think of to do at this point. I live in the Philippines and we don’t have divorce, so that isn’t an option. Annulment is such a long and expensive process which isn’t an option as well, at least not yet. I can get a permanent protection order but I dread the reaction I will be getting from him. I’m stumped…

I would really appreciate it if anyone could validate that my husband is a Narc. I may sound really stupid but I need confirmation. And since I learned that they retaliate and would do anything to get back at an enemy, is it smart to pretend that his seeing the children on weekends doesn’t bother me? Maybe eventually he will get tired of getting back at me that way? I value any input and I’m desperately in need of advice. Thanks!

CVL,
Whether he is or isn’t a narcissist, he is emotionally damaging and in denial. He has many traits of a narcissist (lack of empathy being paramount). You don’t mention if he’s ever shown any signs of physical abuse. I ask because I wondered if you fear that filing an order would provoke physical violence? I have a dear friend who’s been “getting a divorce” for over 6 years now. Her not-so-soon-to-be ex uses their son as a wedge and this breaks her heart. She’s finally been granted the majority of custody time and yes, her husband uses her son primarily to get back at her. She’s had to help her son (who is now 7) learn not to believe everything his father says.
We have a 19-year-old Filipino boy living with us whom we adore. I’ve learned so much more about the Philippines and the fight for women to have control over their reproductive rights, etc. I wish I could offer you more concrete advice. Know that this man is not going to change. Being able to label him a “Narcissist” will not solve the larger problem. He is a abusive individual who will continue to do more of the same.. Always, Jan

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CVL - February 9, 2013

Dear Jan,

Thank you so much for responding. Yes there was physical abuse. He once threw a T.V. at me and another time choked me until I passed out. There is a big possibility he will get violent if I file an order, and what I fear the most is he may harm the children. By law, a protective order will keep him away from anyone specified, and if violated will be imprisoned. I have no idea how it would be in reality though. He knows a lot of people in pretty high places and may easily get around the system. It has been very stressful for me not knowing what may be up his sleeve.
Again, thank you so much for responding, it really means a lot to me. Just knowing there is someone I may turn to is comforting. I just wish I found your site earlier, the burden would’ve been much lighter…much love, CVL

CVL,
Thanks so much. Happy to help however I can. I’m also curious as to how much support you have from your own family – parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles. The Filipino boy living with us came with his mother and brother to the U.S. (his father had died) to live with his father’s family. There is an expectation that the wife exists to enrich the husband’s family. They were living virtually as indentured servants. It’s easy to give advice, but there are so many cultural differences, that these have to be taken into account. Source B, however, provided some excellent advice. Jan

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Source B - February 9, 2013

Hey CVL–

‘Narcissist’ is a pretty nasty label for someone, but the label itself might obscure more than it reveals.

Be very careful of this kind of thing:-

“He picks them up every weekend and it makes me very uncomfortable. I know he doesn’t care much about them and that he is most probably using them to get back at me. He knows they are my world. He knows that I get anxious when they are with him. And I can imagine him gloat over my lack of power to stop him from seeing the kids.”

A lot of horrible things can happen when relationships break down, and it’s immensely hard to keep perspective, but it’s very hard to ‘know’ what someone else is thinking — that’s actually what narcissists themselves assume! What’s *definitely* clear is that you feel undermined and threatened by this guy, and that this undermining and threat is grinding at you.

Having someone gloat at you is grim, and definitely not nice. But you can rise above this–and, in doing so, you can come to see his gloating as what it is: really, really poor behaviour from a weak little monkey.

Give yourself permission not to be disturbed by him. Nothing will terrify him more than the idea that he doesn’t have this lever to control you with — because you’ve *chosen* not to be under his control.

It’s much (much) easier said than done, but see if you can get a handle on the anxiety you’re going through. You’ve not indicated that the children come back from him harmed or hurt, so perhaps there’s less to worry about than it might look like.

(However — make sure you keep notes in a diary about him picking them up and dropping them back: timings, where they went, anything untoward about the contact with the father. This will have three effects: first, it’ll let you feel more in control of what’s going on — if things are proceeding ‘okay’, then you can reassure yourself about that from your notes. Second, if this guy *is* as selfish and deluded as he seems to be, you’ll have a record you can show a lawyer, a doctor, a judge, a social worker or whoever needs to see it. Third, it makes it much harder for him to lie about things if you have contemporaneous notes. <– keeping records is a really good tip.)

You're strong. You've borne children and you've left your relationship with this horrible little fellow behind. It's hard work, but when you find the guy still has hooks in you, gentle draw them out and return to yourself.

Best of good wishes to you.

Source B,
Your advice is all spot on. Thanks so much. Jan

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312. frida - February 8, 2013

hi everyone! i just read (in one go) “stalking the soul”. gave me creeps as it is like the textbook to my N-thing. action by action, reaction by reaction, non-communication by aggression.. incredible. like there was a script, a “manual” i never read! so, thanks for recommending this revealing read! also, thank you, jan, les, source b and donna for helping me. i really mean it. you´ve all been through the ordeal and the fact that you still find the time, nerve and commitment to help people, including me, that are still struggling to break free leaves me truly humbled. thank you!
other than that..new paintings are better than unheard letters! 😉
peace and colors! f.

Frida,
I always first type your name as Friday…Freudian slip? LOL I’m so glad you found this book as helpful as I did. It was like the clouds parted and I could see that the sun was there all along. It was a revelation. 🙂 Always, Jan

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313. CVL - February 9, 2013

Dear Souce B,
I’m hoping that labelling him a “narcissist” might make it easier to understand all the horrible things he has done to me rather than know he is normal and that he just hated me. It makes me feel more confident that it isn’t me who has issues…I don’t know if that even makes sense. I’m just so confused right now.

He doesn’t harm the kids physically, at least not yet. I mentioned that I tried to work it out with him and saw him on weekends with the kids. He was on a rampage. He was so verbally abusive to everyone, his words were piercing. They still make me shudder. One time when he brought us back home he drove like a mad man. The kids were so scared, and these are the things I fear when they’re with him.

I am trying very hard to free myself from his grip, and yes it is easier said than done. I am exhausting all means to get some support which is why I am now here. I should’ve done this a long time ago. It’s helping me get things in “perspective”. My relief is unimaginable. Now gaining back my freedom is more realistic.

Thank you so much for sharing your time and wisdom. I will do as you say and keep a diary.

All the best, CVL

CVL,
What you’ve described is not “normal.” If he’s NOT officially a narcissist (and you’ll never know for sure without some outside observation by a “professional”), he might still be a sociopath, a psychopath, an a$$hole, or simply someone with anger and addiction problems. Any one of these alone could tear a relationship to bits, so he OWNS his bad behavior. I found your story interesting, as it was after my sister-in-law’s husband took her three oldest children on a high speed drive on an icy road that they decided they NEVER wanted to see him again. It was all very scary, but they were teenagers and more able to gauge the danger he’d subjected them to. Jan

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314. CVL - February 11, 2013

Hi Jan,
I do get support from my Mom and my siblings and they are very relieved I got rid of him. They never really liked him and saw right through him immediately. They didn’t want to meddle into our affairs so they kept it to themselves. Looking back, even if they intervened, I would have rejected it as I was still blinded. He said many nasty things about them and for awhile he had me convinced that they were all against me and that they were the ones treating me badly. I’ve discussed this with my sister and when I told her that I’ve decided to leave him she vowed to back me up 100%. But there is still a void that needs to be filled, so many questions that need to be answered. Reading through other people’s experiences is helping me a lot.

My two daughters are also in their teens (17 & 16) and although they understand that their father has put them in danger, their fear of him is greater. So when he tells them he will be picking them up they just agree. I want to tell them they can decline but I too fear the consequence. He once told me, this was after I asked him to leave, that I should stop brainwashing the children. I’m taking that as a warning considering that his reasoning is off the wall. My youngest son is 6, it’s somewhat amusing that he is the outspoken one. He tells his father he doesn’t want to go and that he’d rather stay home. If he does agree to go he bugs his father endlessly to take him home. My son was never close to his father, I’m not surprised because the guy was hardly there for him. And when my son ignored him, he would always comment that the only reason my son favored me more was because I overindulged him. Of course that would be the reason…

My thoughts are all jumbled and I acknowledge I need to organize them if I want to find a way out of this very deep hole I let this man dig up and drop me in to. Where to start…

Please know that this experience of sharing has been very uplifting for me, I guess those who have had close encounters are the best people to help you mend. Whether the guy is a “narcissist” or not, I am relating and learning from all that I have read.

All the best,
CVL

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315. Rundel - February 12, 2013

Great posts- the one thing unsaid is that for a narcicist there is always a co-dependant in the equation.
I guess i question whether a small portion of what you describe as your “nurturing” or “maternal” instincts are in some part a co-dependancy?

Rundel,
Good question. Here’s the deal. Most women are carers. Historically, that’s been our role. Then throw in different cultural backgrounds and expectations. Whereas ALL co-dependents exude “nurturing/maternal” instincts, the reverse cannot be said. All women who are nurturing with maternal instincts are not codependent. Codependency keeps people putting up with such bad behavior – they often even “thrive” on it. Anyone who puts up with a narcissist for YEARS most likely has some serious codependency issues.” Jan

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frida - February 16, 2013

i think the key lies in probably two pivot points: first, most Ns/abusers/whatevertheyare make sure to (and i guess they sniff it out deliberately yet not consciously) choose their targets for being emotionally generous, lively, giving, heartful, nurturing etc. using the parasite-analogy: which host would a parasite favour? certainly the strong, full-of-sap, green and vital tree, right? second, they trigger ones own narcissim. in fact it seems, they feed off the others narcissim, nibbling, dining away at it. as they don´t love themselves, quite the contrary, they seem to devour the other´s (healthy or, better yet for the N, sometimes violated narcissim because it allows the parasite to “climb” you much easier) narcissim and self-esteem to fuel their false love for their false selves. the dependency or addition comes in when and while the target is trying to “reclaim” their (healthy and/or violated) narcissim, their self-esteem. the twist being that you try looking for it in the place it went to..the N. where you *should* be looking for it the place it comes from: you. and the longer the N-cycle revolves, the deeper those addictive/dependent grooves get ingrained. jus´my cents.

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316. frida - February 16, 2013

hi everyone!
first, dear CVL,
“Whether the guy is a “narcissist” or not, I am relating and learning from all that I have read.”
so true! eventually i felt the same. even if he is or not, it all comes down to the bottomline: he/she was bad for me, he/she hurt, abused, twisted and broke you, me and everyone else here. so, like jan asked me in response to my first post: what are you gonna do about it? and the only way is out. and in: the path towards yourself, what makes you whole, sound, positive, lively and lovely. CVL, your story sounds so horrible, your children, the mental and physical abuse you endured..yet you sound headstrong, clear and resolved! i admire that strength and i´m convinced that will be your key in stepping forward. also, it humbled me again..in a good, very good way! all the best to you, CVL! i wish i had some or better advice but all i can do is send my best wishes to you and hope your strength will help you mend and rise!

now, i´ve got some more silly teenage-frida ruminations for you..
this may be a stupid question but i´m asking anyway. do you think it´s safe to go out to places where i might run into the N? i love music and have been goin out, listening and dancing, for years..the N-thing changed that, we happened to love the same music and visit the same locations. for the last few months i completely stopped doin that, although i just love it, loved it before the N wrecked havoc. i want to “reclaim” what was and is mine..get the gist? now, i would love to start goin out to those places again but i´m afraid i might run into the N and am unsure if that´s a good idea. i´m insecure if i can handle it: either he´ll ignore me – don´t know if i´ll be hurt by that (possibly :/ ), even if i should be glad. or he´ll try talking to me – which might cause me to either talk back (bad idea) or turn on my heels and leave (he´s in control yet again.. 😦 )..i know, this is major teenage thinking..but i tried to imagine the situation and it feels square, uneasy. (does that mean i´m still clinging? “in contact”?) but i want to reclaim my “territory”..music is such a big part of my life.. also, i don´t want him to retain control over me in that regard, avoiding what i love to avoid him..i hope, this doesn´t sound too ridiculous tho i feel it does^^

oops, reading back again..source b´s advice to CVL in a much much tougher context (pawning kids in the power-control equation! :/ ) seems the solution: “Give yourself permission not to be disturbed by him. Nothing will terrify him more than the idea that he doesn’t have this lever to control you with — because you’ve *chosen* not to be under his control.” this sounds like the key..look at all the f**** i don´t give anymore. but what to do if you don´t want to give a f* and yet you still find yourself you do? or in CVL´s case..you actually MUST give? how to detach from that?

ah well, maybe i should do what feels right for me and really not give a f* about the impression i leave..ruminations and teenagerism. tired. so tired. 🙂

have a beautiful weekend all! peace, f. aka “friday” 😉

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317. lesley - February 16, 2013

Hey All,
Just passing by and wanted to pick up on some elements of the discussion.
CVL’s point about labelling….for me there is a crucial stage in ‘labelling’ and that is where you identify that you may have indeed been with a cluster B,perhaps of the Narc variety.Certain behaviours and situations that you found yourself in suddenly make sense…

This is different from simply dealing with the fallout from a relationship or having been with an emotionally unavailable person or a player?

A narcissist is characterised primarily by lack of empathy towards you and an actual objectification of you into a source of simply Narc supply. You are an audience,an auto erotic sex toy or a prop?

Those who have withstood this and survived can feel the difference?

Now once you have labelled this and felt comfortable with your judgement,in my opinion the label doesn’t matter anymore?
How did they make you feel on a daily basis…that is the key question…if the answer is ‘shit’….then you can act accordingly and claim you life back.
Any analysis you do about Narcissism should be for you and your personal recovery…not for them?

They are lost.There are some people who think Narcissism is able to be cured.Perhaps many other personality disorders can be understood,confronted and helped….?
In my opinion…Narcissism isn’t one of them. It is woven into the fabric of the person….
To even try…. is to lose yourself completely…..
Frida, I will just say the following…you’re not a teenager? You seem to be doing great work on yourself in general and are surely attempting to move on.
The answer to whether you should go where he is……is easy?
No, you should avoid him like the plague.You are still too vulnerable to this man and you know it.
Source B, I feel, was saying something different…he was saying allow yourself to acknowledge you are strong enough to be be healed,that you can get beyond the disturbance.?’In Time!
I’m just going to put this out there Frida,because you will expect nothing else from me…it reads like you wan’t to step in amongst that drama again.?
Do not be where he is…yet?

Light Shine,
Les

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318. CVL - February 17, 2013

Dear Frida/Les,

I’d like to say that the support and encouragement I get from all of you are more than enough to get me going. I understand that it is difficult to give advice, although we are all in the same boat, there are many other factors that have to be considered. Like cultural differences as Jan mentioned. I’m just happy to know that I’m not the crazy one, this realization will take me a long way…

I am still working on removing the “hooks” this guy has on me, hope there’s a quicker way. But I’m out and more peaceful, it’s a start. I’m now playing it by ear mostly, with the end result in mind.

And I have started a diary 😉

All the best,
CVL

CVL,
A diary is an excellent idea. I actually sat down shortly after everything happened and made a list of comments made by the N. I made three categories: 1)Things he bragged he was someday going to do (magical thinking), 2) Comments with sexual overtones (inappropriate factor), and 3) talents/abilities he bragged about (grandiosity).These comments were still fresh enough that I could write them word for word. Looking back at these later, it became quite all to clear exactly what he was. If you want to do it that way, you could also have categories for real/threatened violence, incidences related to your children, etc. It’s just a thought. Document all, especially anything regarding your children. Progress can be slow, but as long as you’re moving AWAY (psychologically, spiritually, physically) from the narcissist, at least you’re headed in the right direction. Jan

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CVL - February 19, 2013

Dear Jan,

The diary was suggested by Source B, and it is an excellent idea. I not only get to document the incidences but I am also able to rid myself of the negative thoughts and feelings I get whenever something comes up or I get ‘flashbacks’. I was actually toying with the idea of writing down all the nasty things he did, how it made, and is now making me feel. A purging of sorts, it may be therapeutic…

Best wishes, CVL

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319. lesley - February 19, 2013

Hi CVL…
Hope you are well today…. I just wanted to add that similar to Jan, I also wrote down some specifics about my relationship with my ex partner. I juxtaposed on paper all the words and phrases he had used to idealise me and these read back like some wonderfully tender script for a poignant romance!
Then underneath I wrote the words and phrases he had used to denigrate and humiliate me….and these were things you would never say to anyone you hoped to sustain a relationship with?Truly awful put downs and sarcasm….horrific words?
When I read it back I realised that I was dealing with someone lacking in empathy and filled with a need to ‘Project’ his own insecurity and hurt.
Next I wrote down the timeline of his infidelities…I am lucky in that at the end of the relationship these came to light and could be proven?
I saw that he had been ruthless in his pursuit of supply…

Then finally I compared this to my expectations of what might constitute a meaningful and collaborative relationship…of course what I had been experiencing was poles apart,
I had to face up to this entirely!
For me,this kind of ‘Reality Check’ was crucial in helping me move on.

Interestingly,Narcs are unable to do this for themselves?They shy away from self-reflection….
Hence the return to relationship ‘dead end’ they continue to find themselves in.They are extremely predictable and sadly repetitive in this?

Light Shine
Les

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320. CVL - February 20, 2013

Dear Les,

Yes, you are right. I think if I write down all the things I remember, good and bad, it will help me better assess what I have gone through. I’m still trying to make sense of it all. Even if I now realize that it wasn’t me, it was 17 years of pain and neglect. 17 years of constant attempts to connect, and 17 years I can never take back. I need to reconcile with these awful truths and I really believe that putting everything in writing will be a significant step to moving forward.

Thank you for taking the time to share these inputs with me. I am still amazed at how interacting with all of you has helped me so much. I have ‘shared’ my experience virtually before but it is only here that I got responses and tremendous support. Amazing…

I wish you well too!

All the best, CVL

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321. frida - February 21, 2013

hey all,
les, true, true, true. i know, i´m still way too vulnerable to him..in fact, some of my self-scolding consisted of thinking IF i had been the “cool frida” (the N actually asked me: “please, be the cool frida again, ok?” after i made my first move of declaring my feelings for him), things might not have blow up in my face. but i am what i am and who´s to judge if that´s cool or classy or cosmopolitan. geeeeez. so, i will avoid running into him, although i fear, sooner or later this can´t be avoided. let´s hope i´m all cool and healed by then! 😉
as for the diary. i turned to that too..wrote down, just like les and jan did, all the crap he shoved (verbally and/or physically) down my throat. it helped me immensly during the last weeks to cope with the weird missing. which still sometimes gets really bad^^ but looking at my “crap-list” helped me to clear the fog and remember the abuse, the nothing he is..instead of falling again.
other than that i´m progressing with the cleansing ritual. i am in the middle of a fast, doing more exercise again, painting A LOT and generally give myself some time to figure out my issues. at times it´s not pretty, at times the missing sets in and at times i feel horribly guilty for putting my husband through this, for “loosing” the N (see, i feel that i sometimes also projected a lot of stuff unto him, wanted to change him, wanted to push things towards what i wanted..), for loosing MY track in this drama. but the diary´s always there and i turn to that, to get me back on track!
happy tracks to all of you! 🙂
peace, f.

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322. lesley - February 28, 2013

Hey A,
As well as being bleakly tragic your story is also terribly funny…although whilst we are in these self-induced Narc drama’s we are confused,humiliated and left reeling?Totally with you on that.
I was one of Jan’s most prolific posters here and her appreciative friend(known on blog as Scottish Lesley!)…and I get every word you are saying above.
I tend not to quote my own real life examples these days but if you care to…check out my posts 107,141,145 on this same stream and you’ll begin to get the gist of my story.The debate during the Summer of 2012 and the wonderful support here truly brought me into the light again.My friends on blog…deserve abiding gratitude…
.
That’s the good news…it is possible to heal…I am almost there,believe me.
Here’s the ‘Bad News’…you’ve got to leave this man. Not just make an attempt to…you have to go No Contact completely.
What’s more you know it….

My own background is in Psychology…so I do get the searching for an alternative answer(perhaps a faulty attachment disorder?)…which is curable or can be worked through…call yourself out on this…it’s just a delusion we have?What he has is fatal..Somatic Narcissism?

The example you gave and his use of you for seven years….yep he is very definitely Cluster B/Narcissist.
What you will also be aware of A is that your willingness to stay and state that you are’deeply in love’ means that you have issues yourself.
In fact if we stay with a Narc or any emotionally unavailable person ourselves for a length of time(as you have and many of us did)…then the toughest thing to face up to is that we are’Emotionally unavailable ourselves’
Even tougher,but I’m afraid I feel compelled to be here…you aren’t actually loving and nurturing….not completely because you don’t give a damn about yourself and your own self worth and needs as a human being.
Somethings gotta give?
All you are doing is deferring greater hurt…or indeed re-playing a need yourself for remaining in the drama?
On this site you will find compassion and empathy and constant support but very little soft soap or endless sympathy….
Also when you analyse each painful moment or situation he brought you…do it for yourself,not him.
He is what he is?

If you truly are intent on leaving him or have left and are intent on staying apart then you have reached a real oasis in the Narc parched desert and the folk here will stay with you.Promise.

However,No Contact. Complete and utter No contact.
He shouldn’t be able to detect you on any radar,speak with you,see you,contact you….it should be as if you no longer exist for him.
The pain is bad…very bad…but not as excrutiating as it will be in another soul destroying five years.
You’ve stayed too long.

Light Shine
Les

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Vivian - March 17, 2013

Lesley, sorry I am replying to Frida’s link. I am still figuring this out! Frida, please please find a way to do the no contact thing. Just changing my cell helped so much and of course, I had to fib to everyone about why I was changing it. But now I can live thru birthdays and other milestones without that sick feeling of seeing his prefix on my cell. And let me tell you about hurt ….the pain is like a knife that he leaves in to get infected then pulls out for relief only to reinsert after a few minutes….all with a smile. I understand the fighting bc I wanted to whip his narrow a@# but I would have had to explain my marks. So I just hung up and cried a lot and drove my friends insane honestly changing a few precious friendships. Good Luck Frida. you sound like an awesome person.

Lesley: I so appreciate your input. I also felt a link to our situations. I am going to go back and reread yours again and read your blog to catch up more. I wanted to share with you an interesting analogy: My N, when he was time to leave, always drove off first( I will never forget his tail lights) but not until he had waited a few minutes to see if I was going to cry while in my car which I REFUSED to do in front of him. Several times when we were in the same car and saying bye..he would stare at me and turn his head almost like Jason on Friday the 13th just trying to figure me out and see if I could be forced to grovel and cry . It was such an interesting thing to watch. He wanted to be able to look straight ahead but he had no control over his own eagerness to see me suffer. He thought I had the perfect life so he often made envious comments and I think the staring was to see if I would ever break down. I also love everyone’s comments on how most folks with NPD have to have the best of everything. I would look up and he would have a new cadillac and I would think..for real dude? you just lost a job? He went thru with jobs in the time I knew him..two years. Never told me when he lost them and would NOT discuss it. Also, the N always thinks folks are Looking at, judging, picking fights with them. He was in four fist fights as well. I do have the burning desire as you said to make him suffer, but I realize it is to no avail. He won’t. Above all, the most painful part is what I believe Jan described as the lack of closure and explanations where they leave you swinging in the wind. ( while hog tied and beat to death mentally I might add) They hang up and they are done. When you text back, ” what did you mean” they say I cant talk.
Can we get a license plate requirement for these folks? 🙂 VIV

Viv,
Yes, license plate tags would be awesome! LOL Trying to get the final word, closure, or even revenge with a N is like to extract emotion from a rock. Someone wrote on this blog that just telling the N they’d read three books trying to understand him set them up for further abuse, as it showed the N they cared. You can idolize them, but real emotions drive them away. Since you were married, I imagine that when you met, he felt he had some control over you, as you were willing to risk so much to be with him and your tears confirmed this?
On the flip side, Ns are ruled by envy so the fact that you were not bouncing from job to job, had a family, and are intelligent is all the more reason to take you down a notch. Since Ns like to feel special, they spend a lot of time making sure those around them don’t feel as special. They don’t like competition.
As for commenting on “Frida’s link,” when someone’s comment resonates with you, you can reply directly to them. Or, you can just add a new comment and refer back to that person’s comment. It was funny because last summer, people kept saying what a great “forum” this was. I had to laugh because it’s not set up as a forum, but I had a great group of people who were so willing to share and help others see their way out of this fog, that it virtually turned into one! Always, Jan

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lesley - March 17, 2013

First of all Viv…you definitely haven’t lost your sense of humour…and once you start laughing at them..the healing follows!
In your last post I laughed out loud at him asking(amidst all the drama) what you thought of his appendage…as if it was feedback he could use for future reference!!
Feel free to look over my posts and indeed the posters of last Summer when we had a debate on here from May to September that helped so many of us to move on….with Jan’s great insights.
I tend not to talk in specifics these days about my Narc…but it’s all there in all his somatic glory.
When I read his ‘checking of your reactions’ it chilled me…yep they do that…happy or sad,angry or surprised…your natural feelings or sensitivities are of great interest to them. They almost experience their own link to the human race through you?If he made you cry he’s powerful…your joy becomes something he causes and owns…what he can’t feel he experiences in you.Read up on’Cluster B’…not the cod psychology bits but the more scholarly articles or people who have been there?It all starts to fall into place.
One thing they do have is feeling for themselves…they will feel sad and depressed or sentimental when they consider their OWN situation….although they lack complete empathy for
yours.
One bit I will share..before me the Narc was with another woman for around 18 months…and yes, I found out afterwards he had treated her badly..infidelity,denigration,the works…rinse,repeat….yes?
She left,in the dead of the night,without explanation,no forwarding address,no working phone number…the works.
This was the worst Narcissistic Injury anyone could have inflicted upon him. He was of’No Consequence’… I wish that I had done the same. It remains a regret for me. Ignoring….total ignoring is best.Wipe them.
Keep up with the Humour Viv…loving it.
LS
Les

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323. frida - March 13, 2013

hey everyone..wanted to check back. feeling a little weird. blocked. the past weeks have been getting better and lighter and clearer, now i think i´ve arrived at some block, the missing has started again, thoughts of the N came back and i´m not really as positive as i had been before. have to reign myself in constantly to keep NC..i hope this will pass..wanted to check back here, some affirmative reading..i think i can use it. i hope everyone is fine and doing well! thanks again for being here and havin me! i hope this block will be just a phase..ok, enough gibberish 😉 all the best to all!! f.

Frida,
It’s only logical that we miss people we once assigned great value to. (Lesley mentions something to the effect that we give the N way more importance than they deserve). At one point, I observed Joe after the D&D in a situation and realized he was actually very common and horribly inept. I actually found myself laughing at him. I also realized that all the time spent thinking/wondering about him was one-sided. He certainly wasn’t “hurting” or wondering about me. Once I got that through my thick skull, I realized that I was missing the “illusion” and not the real deal. The N can only give you reruns. And you will always be the loser. Once you decide that’s not a role you want to slip back into, it will be easier as time goes by. (Easier said than done. :)) Lesley’s reference to “an addiction” is also very true as they are experts at manipulating others.Jan

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lesley - March 13, 2013

Hey Frida,
Just saw you checking in…hope you are well and thriving.

This happens…it will pass… just see it as a bad day…?

Ask yourself what’s making you miss him…did you see something to remind you of him,did you have a bit of a disappointment elsewhere and you see him as a bit of fix?
Its like any addiction I think…you’ve got to pull it up from it’s root.

Remember that when these people get under our skin we give them all sorts of importance they don’t deserve in our lives.
You are in control of you.
Everyone is different, but what helped for me was actually considering how much time I had put off trying to understand him or his largely predictable motives…time that had gone and I’d never get back…
Also it was boring!
Narcs in their predictability are so so so mundane and boring.
The well-rehearsed moves,the sweeping statements,the unnecessary drama,the obvious projection….and of course, the staple gas-lighting!

I laugh out loud these days when I remember that I considered him unique and special….

So just keep on going,day,hour at a time and you will get there.
Thoughts are with you Frida…,
Light Shine
Les

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Vivian - March 16, 2013

Jan, Frida, Lesley..i have read all of your posts and it is so great that you all have found help from each other. I , too, have been had by a man with NPD( somatic) and it blew my mind. Close friends who have known me forever still cannot believe I held it together. ( prayer was THE only thing) The most terrifying thing to me was that my character changed and I take full responsibility for it and acknowledge it. But I was 48( two yrs ago) and he was 43 and I have never allowed myself to be seduced or seen anyone else be seduced by anyone in such a way as this man. I was not a promiscuous girl or woman and this man had me in the bed in four weeks. He still says to this day it was the sexual experience of his life but let me tell you NOTHING is worth the burning hell I have been through trying to salvage my sanity.( and lets not forget he liked the sex bc of the way he thought he was perceived during it. it had NOTHING to do with me) I was married and am ( dont judge me i have judged myself tenfold) and when I tried to talk about it all I was dismssed and told I did not exist. Excuse me? I am so d&^% glad I had a strong self esteem to begin with and a strong marriage bc the man almost completely destroyed me. weight loss, hair loss, you name it. Yes, I even got HPV.
I am a strong woman with three adult sons and a wonderful husband and believe it or not never reduced myself to personal attacks on him although he deserved so many after I got yelled at screamed at hung up on etc. for twelve months.
I do have a question: I think I would get much satisfaction from telling him he has this disorder bc it is one of those situations where he thinks of me as the intelligent good woman he never had or will have. What are your opinions? Haven’t texted with him in six months and haven’t seen him in over a year so no worries there. Just wondered also if I should tell the effer that I got HPV. Or maybe just let his member fall off instead! Ha!

Vivian,
Ns thrive on preying on unavailable (and yes, strong) women because it makes the conquest all the sweeter. You’re married – there’s no judging in that department. You haven’t seen him in over a year and haven’t texted him in six months, but you’re feeling that you might get some satisfaction from telling him what he is? First congrats on the No Contact and in starting to put your life back together. Please understand that this man doesn’t care if he’s got NPD. He might even take it as a compliment or turn around and say you’re the one with the problem. I know because I told “Joe” what he was. I, too, was the intelligent woman he could never have. His response? He looked at me incredulously and laughed. “Leave it to you to come up with something that’s incurable!” A true N has NO self awareness, so telling them that they are disordered goes right over their head.
By contacting him, all you’d be doing is validating that you still “want/need” him and that gives him a rush of Narcissistic Supply. If you tell him he gave you HPV, he’ll say you got it from sleeping around. (Then he’ll quietly schedule a medical appointment.) The most powerful thing you can say is ….nothing.
Don’t give him the satisfaction of texting or calling him as it’s ultimately going to come back and bite YOU. You “can’t get no satisfaction” with a Narcissist. So, keep moving toward the light. Living well is the best revenge.
Always, Jan

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lesley - March 17, 2013

Hi Vivian,
Your post really moved me because of the insight you have (or have worked towards having)- into how this man affected you and changed the stability of your life.
I noticed great similarities to my own two year relationship with a somatic Narc and can truly empathise with what you said about his perception of the sexual side of the relationship and the fact that at times he seemed to have both idealised you and denigrated you?
As examples you said at times you were’dismissed as if you didn’t exist’ and at others you were his ‘intelligent good woman’;
All he is doing here is moving you around like a prop in the effed- up drama that is his life,sometimes the light is on you and you are centre stage with him, other times you are something to be kicked to the background.The purpose of the drama is always to make himself feel better than the wounded child he actually is.
Practically how great that you have your family intact and got treatment for HPV…consider that your Narc may know that he had the virus and was/is blase about passing it on?
There can be a burning,overwhelming desire to have the last word,call him out,make him suffer?
He wont.
His ego defences will just kick in…and he will rationalise any comments you make in order for him to continue his life his way…narcissistic dark mirror intact?Whatever you do or say?
You may feel the need to do it for your own peace of mind,everyone is different?
In my humble opinion however,all this is doing is wasting time and breath and you have already lost valuable time to this man?
My Narc could have seriously and irrevocably hurt me and my adult sons future…through’ Luck'(because I found out much of his other’pastimes)…I was able to confront and was duly discarded. I say Luck Vivian,because my blood runs cold at the thought that I would still be in that relationship…and again at the further waste of time and my drain to my spirit.

Leave him be…you are free of him now and he can no longer hurt you or your family in any way.All Best Wishes for your future.

Light Shine
Lesley

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Vivian - March 17, 2013

Jan,
Thank you for your kind understanding words. Thank God I have some great friends who have been thru this with me, but the immediate insight from you and Lesley was more valuable to me than years of advice from them ,bc you two have lived it! Jan, I do think you are right about the no contact. He lives two hours from me. Our paths never cross except occasionally in May when I am on vacation, and he and his friends vacation there. I have a place there and have asked them not to stay there but they keep coming back. I always act normal and walk away, and my N hasn’t been back with them but you never know. Some of those men teach and so do my friends and I ,so it is the same time each year bc of teaching schedule. I want to address the part about him not caring if he has NPD. I think he wouldn’t care at all ( and prob not understand as he is not that bright..he just looks good on outside) but he remembers almost every criticism he has ever had from his two ex wives. He is on number three now as he got a girl ten years younger pregnant. I felt so sorry for her the whole time and took up for her, bc he was seeing her and a girl his daughter’s age at the same time. He did marry her and told me he would never get a third divorce no matter how bad the marriage bc he couldn’t handle feeling so low ever again.{ and I just have to tell you all this part. When he called and told me he was getting married and that she was pregnant he said he wanted to ask me something very very important and for me to plz tell the truth so of course I said okay…….guess what the ? was….”was there anything wrong in your opinion with my pe%$#? bc you never seemed to warm up to it like most women and you didn’t seem all that anxious to be with me.” What I would give to have answered that with a yes but I said no.} All that to say, I never ever ever said much negative to him so you are saying that if I see him, I still cant say one thing even in passing…. just keep walking? I can see where keeping on walking and not uttering one word would be very very effective. And this is if I ever see him anyway. Because hell will freeze over before I ever text him from my new number and start that crap up again. You are correct…BOR-ING and dull…dumb as dirt. Thanks and I
typed Han bc I meant to type Ha! Vivian

Vivian,
I like Ha! much better and corrected that! As a teacher, I understand what you’re saying about Spring Break and Summer (though my Summer has dwindled to 9 weeks). The N in my life was cerebral (I try to avoid calling him “my N.”), but I have several dear friends who got involved with somatic Ns, so I’ve heard some gory stories.
I’m not saying you have to take a vow of silence. LOL Five months after I’d seen the last of “Joe” I went to a movie with my husband and a friend who knew Joe. I wasn’t interested in sitting through the credit roll, so I used the restroom. There I was waiting outside for them to join me when I looked over and Joe standing outside the men’s room. I think I’d only said something like, “Hey,” before my husband and friend came out of the theatre. My friend hugged Joe, as they’d once worked together. (My husband can’t stand the guy.) We made small talk for maybe 20 seconds then the three of us left him standing there. I suppose if I’d stood there, seen him, and refused to even acknowledge him, it would have appeared as though I had some undying grudge. I did what I had to to extricate myself from the situation. It was the shock of seeing him that took me by surprise. It also helped that it wasn’t a one on one encounter. Hope that clarifies what I meant. If you were to see him, you don’t have to turn and run the other way. A simple hello and moving on with a brisk step (as you’ve got better things to do with your life) is all that’s required. Jan

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324. frida - March 14, 2013

dear les, dear jan..thanks and cheers for picking me up! yeah, wasted time, mundane and inept and addiction. i think this sums it up pretty nicely!

sombre slope started a few days ago & thinking back, it started a two weeks ago when by chance i saw that one of his other “resources”, a woman he kept insinuating was one of his “minor adventures” (he was always keen on making me jealous (guess it made him feel powerful), while keeping me at arms length with sayin “you mean to much to me to destroy our connection with havin jus another affair..i need the control of keepin sex and soulmateship separated..” blah, blah) but whom he, at the same time, told me was “a bitch, too dumb, just a whore (and you´re my madonna, my ideal^^), full of BS etc.”, was going with him to an event…i just brushed that over, forcing myself to forget but i think eventually it got to me…not so much the jealousy but the repeated proof that all he kept telling me regards to the state of affairs with this woman (long story..lies, lies, lies) was just manipulative BS. again.

i should be used to it but it still stings..and being honest with myself, i´m missing him because of what i thought and hoped (and needed/wanted?) him to be and what i thought, hoped and needed/wanted to be to him. there´s again twisted narcy stuff on my side in that as well, i´m afraid. like i made him that special, important to feel special, important and validated myself?! actually that´s still the hardest part..makes me feel like the actual narc in the equation and that feels icky! yikes! and opens the floodgates to useless “what ifs”..

other than that..i sometimes write poetry and during the first D&D cycle/separation attempt i wrote a simple little poem..i wanted to share..feels like it cut through the fog pretty early on:

i´ll stretch my memory muscle,
i´ll wash my river clean.
brace my back for impact
for all the naughts i´ve been.

paper, bridge and countenance,
our gravity erased.
i´ll stretch my memory muscle
and face my ghost instead.

well, ladies..recovery – it´s a slippery slope.. have a fine day and thanks again for rest, reminder and realness 😉 ! peace, f.

Frida,
I’ve been so busy now that I’m back at school, that I’ve been remiss in replying to comments. Just wanted to let you know I like your poem. What a wonderful outlet in which to express your thoughts. A Haiku is about all I could manage. LOL Jan

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lesley - March 17, 2013

Just wanted to say Frida that I love those lines ‘I’ll stretch my memory muscle,I’ll wash my river clean….’
It really speaks to me about how we have to take responsibility and action towards our own healing…it’s not going to kick in from the blue?
Am sending you a link to a poet I really like
Galway Kinnell(think I’ve spelled it right!)…it’s also about trusting time and that everything comes round again..?

http://www.poemhunter.com/best-poems/galway-kinnell/wait/

LS
Les

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325. Chris - March 16, 2013

I’m not caught up reading here but was wanting to inquire if any of you others notice facial asymmetry with your narcs? Ours has a noticeable eye asymmetry and a few other “famous” individuals I believe to be narcissists have asymmetry by way of one eye higher than the other.

Chris,
I’m responding to your “clarification.” Jan

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326. Chris - March 16, 2013

And just to clarify, I do realize that no one is 100% aesthetically symmetric, but my question focuses on the possibility of narcs having more pronounced asymmetry than non- narcs. Just pondering this aspect and wanted input from the rest of you. Thanks!

Chris,
I just taught my students a lesson on self portraits and we did discuss how no one’s face is perfectly symmetrical – we’d actually look rather creepy and robotic if it was! AGES AGO, when I was a regular on an MSN forum (I think that was it – it’s so nice NOT to remember the gory details!), there were quite a few posts where someone would ask if it was more common for a N to be a….Scorpio! (And, yes, it always seemed to be a Scorpio, but it could have been the same person asking and never hearing what they wanted to.)
Many of my posts have links to peer-reviewed articles in professional journals as I try not to speculate over things that I know not of. So, unless scientists learn that Malignant Narcissism has a genetic component and that the same gene could affect one’s appearance in terms of symmetry, I’ll have to say chalk this up to coincidence. Perhaps they just appear so because they’re so two-faced? Now, I’m going off to check and see if my ears are equally aligned. 🙂 Jan

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327. frida - March 18, 2013

dear jan, les and vivian,
lots of movement here..hi vivan! first off, sombre slope is slowly flattening out and the intermittent turmoil settles again, thankgod! vivian, i wanted to add my pov on letting Ns in on patterns and proof (?) of their disorder. i know the feeling sooo well..

the N in my life (cerebral i´d say, with a toss of fake somatic just because sex seemed a convenient tool in the powerplay arsenal. withholding being a favourite of his. i still firmly believe he has some serious impotence issues to add to the general asexuality of his and kinda hated his body, quote: “sometimes i just want to leave my body”, albeit he used sex, sexual innnuendo etc. to get the powerplay rollin) the N had, i surmise, some insight into what was wrong with him. let me elaborate: early on into our thing, he´d often tell me about his depression (he´s on meds), how he suffers from low self-esteem, how he´s insecure, always ponderin what others might think of him, if they like him, how he perceives his life as a failure and, quote: “i am just a narcissistic scoundrel, inconsistent, full of disadvantages, unable to decide and telling right from wrong..” early on he´d OFTEN use the N-word in talking about himself.

at first i thought this endearing, like he had some capacity for self-reflection and was seriously looking to turn himself around and like i was the choosen confidante to help, understand and love. (and oh boy, i´ve definately also been intelligent superwoman that made conquest all the sweeter and don´t i know being idealised while simultaneously denigrated. unreal BS, unreal. whatta champ^^) looking back, i think it was just a means to draw me in (idealisation tool too maybe..making me feel important to endear etc.), a “modesty” that eventually was full-on arrogance and early installment of a sort of “deflection screen” that he´d use later on, when i started callin him out on his brutal BS. along the lines of “i told you so already, this is how i tick, can´t help it..it´s your fault you wouldn´t listen and if you can´t accept the reality of who/what i am”.
looking at my crap-list, he´d admit to A LOT of N-traits..”i must have control. i hate birthdays, weddings, social obligations, interviews, funerals, university seminars or jobs, where i can´t devise and control..”//”i never oblige to rules. rules and boundaries are for the weak.”//”i mostly feel empty. there´s nothing there. i am just a thing, nothing more.”//”others are just bigmouthed sharks, i´m an orca, a true predator. predators target and kill their prey with organised intelligence and sadistic skill.” etc. the chilling list goes on and on, endlessly and it beats me how he could actually be so spot-on and out-in-the-open, yet i couldn´t see it and how he still wouldn´t admit it. somehow it seems they literally bask in the glory of their warped, sick minds..quote: “name, explain and bend it as you please, but face it, you´ll never be up to the grand relativity of my nature..” (this chilling list…argh!)

he was very keen on hearing my thoughts (checkin superwoman out, eh? 😉 ) on what might be wrong with him..and i was on to him early, if not to expose but to help..and this just put fuel on the fire of D&D and narcissistic brutality. (superwoman esse delendam..^^) i remember him asking: “you suggested i´m not genuinely depressed, so what you think is wrong with me?” as i didn´t know about NPD and the terminology then, i pretty much painted an instinctive picture of hurt/hidden true self vs. false self, the black hole sucking up on others emotions, love and attention to fill the void and the depression being more or less just frustration upon supply-depletion. wow, the manner in which he swiftly cut me short and put me down, read: ego-defense shields up – fire at will, was mindblowing!

i´m sure he was aware something was wrong with his narcissism. aware of his traits and i bet others, his former therapist (he of course never went thru with therapy) and i guess some women before me, called him out big time. he knew his cycles. but lo and behold, he´d never ever close the gap. all, ALL is just a means, tool and front to keep appearances and deflection shields up. like jan wrote elsewhere: this is who they ARE! if they´d start unpicking (like we do), their complete personality would come undone, they´d implode (*my* Ns favourite phrase “i need this control or i´ll mentally implode”) into utter nothing and they know it. so it´s useless labor and love lost to try to confront them. been there, done that, still counting my scars and bruises, mentally and physically.

that said, i have much sympathy for your want to confront, vivian! for mixed motivations: wanting to help him, wanting to change him, wanting to get even, to prove myself right eventually, to make him pay, to make him turn into the man (illusion?!) i wanted to love and be loved by..sound familiar, vivan? bottomline is, there´s more of ones own violated narcissism in those “want” and “make”, than is healthy. les said: “my inverted ego that kept trying.” i´m afraid that´s the sad truth.

oh, and what to do if you run into the N..well, i wonder myself. i´m still too vulnerable..even with all that wise-a** insight, he still might be able to get to me, charm me or hurt me..i´d rather avoid him. les was so right again! the idea of confronting the N shows there´s still hooks, one still cares and if one still cares, that particular wound hasn´t healed and it´s the perfect portal for the N. another case of sad but true.

vivian, congrats on 6 months NC! the last and toughest hurdle is probably facing the inverted ego, the blow to ones own narcissism, unpicking yourself to firmly shut that portal for good. much power to you! i´m not there yet. but you will get there, others did and i will too! 🙂

les, thanks for the kinnell link! “lastness”! and for liking my scribblededooh, les & jan 😉 ladies and superwomen, have a good week! peace and poesy! f.

PS: sorry for another long post. can´t help. N-quote: “you´re too elaborate.” he got that right.

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Vivian - March 18, 2013

Frida: Thanks, tons, again( to all of you.) Can I ghost write a book? We could be famous! or rather our N’s could. I bet mine would agree to quotes!!!HA!
I have gleaned so much from your input. I love Les descrip of her N’s former girl leaving in the dead of the night. What a wonderful thought. And the best way to do it is “no contact.”
Frida: I think I am unpicking myself now as the passing of time has let some of my more intense feelings subside a bit.
I remember telling myself( my dad’s name is John)’ John’s daughter will not put up with this absolute hell any more. Done.’
( almost as if I would do it for Dad even if not for myself)
I am going to follow Jan’s lead and remember the “brisk step” thought. Speak and move on so they think they have had no effect on your whatsoever. Love to all, Vivian

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frida - March 19, 2013

yeah, thought about a book too ´cause the encounter´s been far out unreal. but wouldn´t we just supersupply our Ns with the notorious fame their sh****, pusillanimous selves crave? the creepy similarities all our stories share illustrates their basic predicable shallowness. sometimes the twist in my thoughts is that i wasn´t able to live up and deal with the N´s “challenging” nature the way i would want to imagine myself (“illuuuuuusion!”)..the cool frida, the worldy-wise femme, edgy, strong and tough, equipped with wit and warp. then i realise it wouldn´t have been worth the effort..the N neither was substantial, intelligent, faceted or “challenging”, nor “demonic”, intriguing or sexy enough to deserve you, me, les and everyone else! HA! i came to realise that my “innocence”, my “faults”, the “naughts” i´ve talked about in my poem are indeed what make me the cool frida, make my facets….
viv, “john´s daugher”, good to hear those all-too-familiar intense feelings are subsiding! i´m not quite there yet, so sometimes my heart still obscures the clarity.
i´m interested in one thing tho: what made you walk away eventually? if you care/dare to share? what was the bottom, the last drop that made to push thru with NC?
peace! frida aka facet 😉

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328. Vivian - March 19, 2013

Frida: Great thoughts on what the book would do to the narc. I bet mine (in his ignorant lack of awareness of anything but himself) would ask that his pic be on the front! I have received so many text pics of his face that it got to be funny between my bff and myself. We would LOAO everytime I got one!!!
Speaking of text pics, yes I will share the end of my saga. It is so detailed so I will try to hold part in, and if anyone knows of a better way to spare some folks all of this total bs (by sharing privately) let me know. I hate to dominate this wonderful blog of Jan’s, who is the reason we are all together in the first place. Also, my narc’s exes ( bc i am sure he will divorce this third wife as well) might smart up and figure out his identity and in a weak moment- to gain his admiration- decide to share. with him…. and that would be not cool. Thoughts? Viv

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frida - March 20, 2013

haha, viv, front cover would be a massive problem with all those beautiful Ns 😉 as for sharing without clogging the blog (guilty as charged 😉 ) or giving identities away, guess jan, as admin, has access to our emailadresses? so, if jan agrees and you, i´d be absolutely fine with jan forwarding my address to you or vice versa whatever, if you fancy..luv, f.

Frida & Viv (I have to laugh as I actually first typed “Friday” – can you tell what I’m thinking about?),
When someone comments, I do have their email address. I’ve emailed people off the blog myself. Lesley, Phil and I all are able to communicate in this way, as sometimes it’s very difficult to share the details without revealing too much. (This said, Lesley and Phil and I’ve moved beyond talking about N stuff and just enjoy each other’s company. FYI Lesley’s son stepped on her computer, so she’s currently without. I’m expecting a carrier pigeon to arrive any minute.) There was one time when a commenter asked for Lesley’s address, which she said was okay. I’m afraid the woman turned out to be terribly manipulative and was virtually stalking her ex (who didn’t seem all that N-like). After 3-4 months of this, we both wrote a nice “Dear John” letter to this woman, who fortunately was a continent away, and then blocked her.
Anyways, I’m open.
Always, Jan

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Vivian - March 20, 2013

Yes girls this would be fine with me. I am sure we all understand boundaries. Heck we should be pros at it by now!!!! love Vivi

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frida - March 21, 2013

robinson? 😉 yes, i get your second thoughts, jan..i still find myself wondering about “who´s the real “N” here” sometimes, browsing thu the web, reading stories and still wonder about that myself regards to my encounter. it´s a wicked fine line, this thing with unpicking, ones own narcissism, the N´s BS and the whole nine yards..anyways, you´re open. that´s what matters! thanks!

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vivian - March 21, 2013

Hey frida…You and Jan check your e mail…Jan shared with me…xxoo. vivi

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frida - March 21, 2013

hey vivi..coincidence! 🙂 i just pressed “send” on my reply to you!

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329. Vivian - March 23, 2013

Hey Les, Jan, Frida!!! Hope everyone is doing well this weekend. Our fam is on a small trip with our boys and wow does a change of scenery help! I remember a counselor friend telling me once that when I relived my experiences over and over in my mind, I was missing the joy of that day..just looking around outside at the flowers and birds and beautiful sunsets. I found that statement comes back to me when I am needing to rid myself of me!!!
Hold you heads up high today, friends and strut around and have fun. We had to be cool to be noticed by these losers in the first place…there are lots more worthy folks to spend time with who DO love us. Love to all VIVI( have any of you read the Divine Secrets of the YAYA Sisterhood) That is why I love the name Vivi!!!

Viviian aka Vivi,
I always wanted to read that book. I’ll put it on my “To Do” list as it got excellent reviews. Yes, replaying all that happened (though it’s a very human thing to do) keeps us locked in the past. Time is the one think you can never get back and I wasted enough time thinking about someone who was incapable of a real emotional connection. So there’s no need to throw away any more time that can be spent enjoying NOW. Have a wonderful time with your family. Jan

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330. MillyRad - March 23, 2013

It’s been about a year since I stopped contact with my ex friend and I’ve been doing pretty well. Recently, though, I’ve been stressing out a little because he’s been coming around the center where I work again. I eat lunch in the building with a few other coworkers about the same time every day and right outside my studio. One day (I think about a week and a half ago) I was a little late getting to lunch and my ex friend walks over and starts whining to my lunch-buddies. I’m still in my studio, but I can hear the conversation. I guess he’d come by to photograph an upcoming event, but found that another photographer was going to be there too. My ex friend has been to this annual event before and knows that anyone is welcome to take pictures, but he starts saying that he won’t bother taking photos this year because Other Photographer has it covered and that Other Photographer’s pictures are good, but his own are awful. He was doing some pretty hardcore compliment-fishing. My lunch friends had to tell him how awesome he was before he would say he’d even consider attending. I listened to this BS in my studio just gritting my teeth! It seemed so ridiculous I wanted to run out and shake all of them by the shoulders and tell them to stop.

After my ex friend had his ego adequately stroked and left, I came out to eat lunch. I must’ve looked as anxious as I felt, because they both asked me if I was okay. I admitted to them that I was still kind of on high-alert because ex friend and I don’t get along. They seemed suprisingly okay with that.

I learned something good and something scary. The good thing is that one of my lunch friends met my ex friend’s girlfriend and was fairly put-off by her. That made me feel a bit relieved that someone else has met her in real life and also sensed the sourness she exudes. The scary thing is that this same friend told me that she didn’t really like my ex friend until he made her cry- told her some story about his awful childhood, no doubt, and now she feels like she’s bonded with him. This friend is a wonderful person, married to a really nice guy, and she has a super-awesome 7 year old kid. I feel afraid that she’s being groomed to be in the next drama triangle my ex friend builds. I desperately want to grab her and tell her, “This is what he does!!! You think you guys have bonded, but you’re the only one feeling any kind of bond. It’s a trap!” ◉’◠’◉
I don’t want anyone to go through the pain that I did, if I can help it.

My lunch-friend is a sensitive, intelligent person and I think she has enough sense to both see through any manipulation my ex friend might try to pull, and also that she would understand my reasoning if I did try to warn her about him. I’m a bit torn about whether I should say anything to her.

p.s. I signed up for email updates when someone replies/comments on this blog entry. I’ve read all of them and I feel comforted and inspired by your stories. I’m so glad to (virtually) know you guys/gals! ❤

MillyRad,
I’ve been so fortunate to have such a great group of people on my blog who are also respectful of one other, so I feel the same. 🙂
Gee, it must have been hard hearing this going on outside your office, especially if you can he’s just fishing for compliments/manipulating others. You showed great restraint. When it came to “Joe,” many “knew” him, but of course only on a superficial level. I didn’t want to sound like sour grapes by going around and telling everyone what had happened between us. Then I might look as though I was the one with the problem? Those people he kept at arm’s length didn’t get to see behind the mask. It’s painful to see how easily a N extracts NS from the unsuspecting. “Joe” also had a sad childhood tale that garnered him some sympathy. He had perfected this story and used it as an “excuse.” I only wish someone would have pulled me aside and said, “Be careful, there’s more than meets the eye,” but no one did because they didn’t realize he’d targeted me. Would I have listened? I think it would have put me on high alert, especially if it had been early in “the game.” Jan

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Vivian - March 23, 2013

Milly: Dont you just want to shout it out to the whole world? Then if you did, everyone looks at you like you have some deep seated reason for interfering? I can imagine how you felt when your ex friend was talking to your friends within earshot. UGH is all I can say. My ex friend could walk into a room of strangers , charm every one in there, and prob sleep with half of them within the next 24 hours. They FEED on this stuff and that is why it is called their (narcissistic) supply. All the while I would want to shout out,” hey guys and gals. This guy….this great lookin guy you people just met??? is so narcissitic that he just argued with a judge in a court of law over a small charge and got thrown in jail for the weekend with contempt of court…stay away…run away fast!!!””
I related to your concern bc the girl was married. Your ex friend could cause a family a whole lot of pain. I would be interested to know what Jan thought of this one. I would say that if I were you I would prob do it but anonymously. You will have to be careful. Another choice is to confront your ex friend about considering the lives he is affecting; but if that is to hard on you, BY ALL MEANS save yourself. Good luck. Vivi

Vivi,
I wrote what I thought above. There’s no crystal clear answer as to how to proceed. I would AVOID confronting the ex-friend or trying to reason with the him. Ns don’t care about how the affect other lives – they actually enjoy that they can unsettle the universe as it proves how powerful and special they are. Jan

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331. lesley - March 26, 2013

Milly,and all Viv,Frida,Jan,

Milly,I read this with slight dread so he’s still around from last year and making his presence felt. Experience it in present….or choose to…eventually he’ll go. It’s so tempting to intervene but at what cost..sit back but be there to inform anyone who needs it?

Ah Jan,Viv, Frida,just reading some greek lit….

Folks…Achille’s Mum forgot to put that old heel in the river Styx…and so he was still pretty vulnerable…my Mum very probably,knowing her ways, did the same… so I am floored…to the ground just now with a blinding personal issue…and cannot get my head around or up…

I certainly cannot give advice…
but will take any or some.. cos a struggle is on!

I’m loving your comments and keeping them to my heart…you wise people.
Light Shine(although I think that is the hardest time I’ve written my sign off)
Les.

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Covington - March 26, 2013

Les!
Girl. Reeling sometimes just isn’t descriptive enough, is it. Once a friend of mine said,” To be honest, I am desperately trying to hold my life together.”
All good thoughts and prayers your way, Les. Let us know if we can help. Breathe in, breathe out. Pause and repeat. xxoo Viv

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Vivian - March 26, 2013

Ok. Trying again. Too sleepy! Les, I said that I know that sometimes”reeling” doesn’t describe how utterly disorienting life can be. I hope and pray that you can move forward thru whatever is upsetting you. Breathe in, Breathe out. Pause. Repeat. Much love and happiness, Vivi

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332. Vivian - March 26, 2013

sorry les, I just typed what one of my kids said!!!hahhaah

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333. lesley - March 26, 2013

Hah..If I typed what my son said Viv…Jan would censor!
I think I breathing…need to hold a mirror up?
Its a kind of parallel universe scenario..maybe Scottie will beam me up soon?
Thanks for words you,truly appreciated,
Les

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frida - March 26, 2013

les, just saw you checked in now and my thoughts go out to you! whatever the heck this parallel universe is darking your light with, i can only agree with vivi´s word´s..i guess something very grave is flooring you..but i dunno, so i cannot give advice..just the support of my thoughts, really, and from the advice and support you gave me here, i can only hope that your true light which stayed with you thru so much turmoil, will truly prevail again! much luv, strength and light to you! frida

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lesley - March 26, 2013

Hey Frida..
Thanks..it is a dark cast and very sad but all things heal in light and time.
Will be back…keep blog warm..just need to keep head above water for a while.
Much thanks Frid
Les

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334. VanesaIMA - May 2, 2013

Jan, I have to tell you that finding your blog has saved me from going “insane” tonight. Life with my N is textbook “Narcissist meets Co-Dependent.” Been “friends” for 3 years, and I was enamored from the moment I met him. I am a professional 30 year old who manages an entire office, and I am lucky to have amazing friends and co-workers–I have a lot of things and people that should make me happy. My N met me as a strong independent single woman living and loving life! And he has MADE ME into a weak insecure woman who sits at home pacing back and forth panicking when he doesn’t call to make plans or check in on me. I often find myself unable to function and weeping like a 3 year old when I think he is going to dispose of me. It feels like I can’t breathe when he is not around, and I wake up with so much anxiety that it feels like a truck is sitting on my chest (“how will he treat me today? will he call me? will he text?) His game with me has been “we are just friends” “you are my best friend” while still doing the things that couples do: vacations, sex, family trips, etc. The moment he feels that I am getting too comfortable in the “relationship”, he throws in the “we need to just be friends” or “we need a break.” Or he will he say something that will leave me completely shaken. Just last week we got into an argument and he decided we need to take a break..didn’t mention how long, or considered my feelings, he just stopped talking to me and pretended I didn’t exist. He left me lifeless. Fast Forward to Monday when he gets laid off work, the first person he calls is me. Asking and praising my support, but also making sure I know that “we can’t be more than friends” and that we need to date other people. I’ve already seen a therapist right after he disposed of me the first time, but I wasn’t ready to move on. I feel it coming though!! I am getting stronger and stronger each day, and I know one day I will be able to walk away. And I will need to be even stronger, as the moment an N senses you walking away…they come back to charm.

Vanesa,
First off, thanks for owning up to being codependent. It sounds like he likes having you as a friend with benefits, but he really is no friend at all – he is a user, but only when it suits him. And yes, this is the MO for emotionally unavailable people, not just Ns. What you are describing is acute anxiety – a veritable panic attack. You need to consult a physician as this interferes with your sleep and work and just thinking clearly. You need to think clearly to see your way out of this mess that you have helped to create. (That’s where the Co in Dependent comes in – sorry, but it’s true and you do know it.)
There is NO future with this man, only more of the same….if you’ll allow it. Think of why you weren’t ready to let go before. What has changed since to make you feel like you’re getting stronger? Are you just tired of feeling used?
My father (who died last year) always used to tell me that when you love someone, it makes you happy. So you know this ISN’T love. You are lucky to have a good job, supportive friends and colleagues, and the memory of what you had/were before you met this man. I can hear it in your voice. You are better than this. Jan

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Corinne - May 10, 2013

Vanesa, I feel for you. I went from being a codependent to a high functioning alcoholic to a being a co-narcissist with another man. I made a mediocre codependent but an excellent co-n. I actually looked to my N as a role model for building strong boundaries for myself. What a joke. He had the most absolute boundaries, but I was allowed to have none. Yet, I continued to admire his ability to set boundaries. I now see being with my N as a kind of addiction. I did not care if he gave me positive or negative attention in the end, as long as I received his attention.

Eventually, I walked away because I did not like myself any more, and had trouble getting out of bed. After a month or two away from him, I still loved him but felt so much better about myself. Now two years later, I don’t even view him as human.

I think one of the hardest things was doing almost what Ns do to us – ignore and cut off all contact without closure or explanation. You are NOT becoming one of them by doing this, rather you are becoming whole again.

Best to you.

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335. lesley - May 2, 2013

Vanesa,
You need to cut the cord that binds.
I am sorry to hear the pain you’re going through, which is very real and leaving you shell-shocked….
However…much as I’m sure this guy is a piece of work…it’s also your own hopes and expectations about this relationship which are continuing to hurt you.
He is being quite explicit about his feelings and intentions towards you?He sees you as ‘a friend with benefits’…of course he’s going to turn to you as you’re nurturing,available,loving,giving him sex on tap???Ask yourself why you are prepared to be in such a one-sided relationship…why don’t you as an individual feel you deserve more?
That’s a great starting point…

Whether he’s Narc or just a player extraordinaire is actually academic.

He doesn’t make you feel good on a daily basis?

The fact that you’re having so profound physical symptoms,having to see a therapist isn’t good news either?
It’s like you’ve handed your life over to this man….Claim it back.
The first action you need to take is to cut contact?

Jan references some helpful sites on the right side of her page…here’s an article from ‘Baggage Reclaim’ which may help you identify some carmine red flags about your relationship.

http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/how-to-spot-an-assclown/

Going ‘No Contact isn’t easy’, many of us on this site have done it, found it difficult in the extreme, but triumphed eventually…. but unless you do so,the pain involved in your relationship will continue chronically?
That’s a given.

So hoping for the best for you and that you can make a wise decision for your own future happiness,

Light Shine,
Les

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336. Vivian - May 2, 2013

Vanesa< I just read Les and Jan's responses and I am remembering how encouraging they were to me. Most of us have truly dealt with these people for whom no lights shine . EXCEPT on themselves. And now that I understand narcissism better, I understand more about why these people are the way they are. However, as I am not a psychiatrist, I say we concentrate more on helping you move through this.
I am so glad to hear you have much support from close friends and co workers. You will need them in the days, weeks, months( dare I say years) to come.
Please move away from this person who is making you doubt yourself so. I have felt the same way…I am a mom of three, married to a professional, I have a masters degree….and twenty years older than you…and it can happen to any of us.
N's and emotionally unavailable persons prey on nice good sound strong women like us. When I read our account, I shuddered at the ways I have suffered in the same way. I remember once my "n" getting put in jail for arguing with the dang JUDGE..and who did he call? And who felt she could help him? Honey, he probably called three more after he hung up with you.
Please look to any type of help you can get to get away and spare yourself more pain. we are here for you. VIV

Viv,
You’ve come a long way. Thanks for the sage advice. Jan

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frida - May 7, 2013

hello everyone,

so i´m back from my southern travels which turned out to be a much welcomed and needed break from last years “annus horribilis”!

first, vanesa..i can only wholeheartedly agree with everything jan, les and vivi have already said! we all here know the startingly similar BS these [insert dysfunction/swearname/curse of your liking here] dish out..same same but different. please, as you seem to already have insight into your own probable issues, use it as a starting point for further introspection as to what made you/why you allowed yourself to loose yourself in his evil web..it sure is THE way to heal and reclaim yourself! that, good, true friends and utter NC, for sure! that said, it can be tough, a steep curve and sometimes feel even worse than the quick – yet however & way worse – fix of remaining in this “relationship”. but it sure will help you grow in strength, power, self and heart! i wish you all the best and strength and we´re here to help you if you need to shed, rage, reflect or keep on track..jan, les, sourceb and vivi (hi viv 🙂 ) really helped me and i am so grateful, always!

(BTW, i´m healing..still torn between rage & remorse & depression sometimes but slowly returning to myself. thanks again!!!)

that said, another wave of hands to everyone on here..les, i hope you´re better than last time i checked before my roadtrip? i sure hope you are!!
peace! frida

Welcome back Frida!
Hope y’all had a great time and a much needed break. I’m a bit envious of all that down time (or was it?) as it’s good to have a change in scenery. I’m a bit overwhelmed ATM with all this talk of PBL for next year (I know you’re an ace at this.) I’m going to meet up with Les in Scotland in July. How cool is that?!! Always, Jan

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frida - May 9, 2013

cheers jan! yeah, i feel kinda self-indulgent what with being a happy southern camper for such a luxuriously long time, plus i´m making this year a sabbatical too but i felt the time was ripe..overdue really 😉 gosh, hope you´re gonna make it thru this PBL stuff..can´t judge from my european view (and am NOT the ace, my teacher sis is! *lol*) but like i told you..very similar edu-chaos here. teacher sis is just as..err..stressed? confused? fuming? (yep. that´s the word 😉 ) hang in there, jan! keep your eyes on july and haggis *lol* errr, that will be scottish les then, not english les, right? anyways, power to the teacher(s)! cheeeeers, frida

This is going to be my All Lesley Tour of the UK. English Les is flying with me to meet Scottish Les for several days. Have you ever thought about changing your name to Lesley? LOL Thanks for giving me the term edu-chaos. This will be repeated in the Teacher’s Lounge today. 🙂 Jan

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337. frida - May 10, 2013

ladies,
i´m tempted to say you won´t believe this but i know you will: halfpast midnight last night my mobile goes “ping”. my gut knew but i looked anyway..the N. after 4 months of naught. text:

“i miss you. as a big sister. i won´t blame everything to my psyche but i didn´t wan´t all this to happen. please excuse my stupidity. i was always serious about you, as a soulmate. this i swear by the old gods and the new. N.”

i switched my phone off after this and lost quite a bit of sleep over it nontheless, damn. doubtsville reloaded. also, it seems that semi-telepathic bond is still there (he had that talent of turning up/saying something/doing something right the second i was thinking/doing something correspondingly..*shivers*)..just yesterday i realised that i´m not longer thinking of him too much, that i´m even overcoming that shameridden outrage towards myself of having being had..it was a good day, yesterday.
well, this morning i saw he sent another text later at night:

“(the gods aka sun, water, love and sound – that voodoo s*** was never meant serious)”

WTF? so know i´m sitting here, knowing i need to remain as silent as an astronaut in outter space, yet the same doubts keep replaying, a weird missing sets in again, i´m pondering the chance of using his rebound as a chance to get even…blahblah…you know it.
but this is classic textbook right? i mean, you may remember our endgame, with the N throwing all sorts of mean, projective, insulting dirt at me, long after i went NC. so now he´s back after four months of silence? textbook, right? probably on low supplies, bored by current supplies?

oh jan, from edu-chaos to weirdo-chaos in under 10 hours..^^
geeeeez. shaky frida, abiding.

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lesley - May 10, 2013

Hey Frida,

Thanks for asking after me… I’m fine and dandy.

Yes… textbook indeed and you’ve read enough of his textbooks….you know the score and have educated yourself at the school of hard knocks!(sorry couldn’t help continuing the educ analogy)…!

Seriously,you know he’s just at a low ebb,putting out feelers…seeing who bites?
Some other wise woman has possibly just given him his marching orders? He needs to feel special again?
Yeah, feel the missing…note how it makes you feel less empowered, more feeding off drama,less strong Frida and decide to ‘end the missing’
You decide….not him.Remember you are in control of how you feel about him…he doesn’t make you feel or do anything. He just doesn’t have that power over you.

One thing it’s not is chaos…it’s just a blip,a gnat on your knee,get up move on with your life and let that gnat fly away…

I also think his language is all about making him seem different,quoting God’s/voodoo/the elements by text isn’t cool?

It makes him sound like he’s just read a chapter by Neil Gaiman or watched a back episode of True Blood…!!!!!!!!

I KNOW you’ll get over this Frida,
LS,
Les

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Vivi - May 10, 2013

Unreal. No, real . You have been given a second chance.. to be the smart woman that Les told us about who left in the middle of the night never to be heard from again. You have been given that opportunity, friend. I would not answer. You will feel so much better in a week than if you do. Viv

Viv,
Not everyone gets the change to “leave in the middle of the night,” as it’s usually the N who does this to us. But when the tables are turned, it can allow you to literally “shut the door” to being constantly used. Living well IS the best revenge. And it’s impossible to live well with a N in your life. Jan

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Vivi - May 10, 2013

Les: you are a God send. Such sane advice. I almost slipped yesterday . Frida and I must be living same lives. I ALMOST lost my senses. But then my son was in this intense soccer game against our rivals( and he is just a soph playing seniors) and this kid did something to him and he called him a “little bitch” and got a yellow card. SO humor healed me again. These kids of ours are here for a reason….love to all.

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338. frida - May 11, 2013

hey les & vivi,

thanks for the swift pick-up 😉 great to hear you´re fine and dandy, les!! and kudos vivi, ALMOST slipping is not slipping, thankgod! i´d be lying if i´d say i wasn´t tempted to reply, in a dark corner of my mind and heart, for all the endless list of wrong reasons..revenge, restart, retort, rekindle, reteliate. *sigh*
innit interesting to note how he throws some trigger-words around..”sister” (i have this slight brother-complex..lost my brother when i was very young. he knows this.)/”soulmate” (i completely fell for that. brother-complex. looking for my missing piece. he knows that.)/”serious” (i´d go on endlessly about how nothing was ever serious with him. how he hides behind his saying: take everything serious AND unserious at the same time. he knows i was a nutter about >seriousness<.) and, for good measure "love" (he swears by love. aha.^^). seems he´s putting that garnish on just to get me reading my needs and hopes into those trigger-words and fall again. plus, whatta LAAAZY communication. if he really wanted to put effort into reconnecting, why not send me a letter, call me or put some thought, time and TLC into it? lucky me, he didn´t. all the while, i´m still blocked on FB…haha. well, good on me.

that said, the texts still gave me wobblies for some time. thanks for your sane advice, ladies! yes, it seems i´ve "gained the upper hand" again. now i can show him, how much of a "please be cool frida again" i really am.

but can´t deny another dark corner of myself feels rather smug that after his hateful D&D and the N-injury i caused him, he´s apparently on such low supply, so he needs to put feelers out. but i won´t dwell on that or the other dark corners. those got me in trouble in the first place. no more true blood. none of mine anyways.

well, i´ll be trying to make the most of my weekend! wishing you all a wonderful weekend as well, keep sane, dandy and strong 😉 !
luv, frida

frida,
Yikes! So many comments. I’m trying to catch up with what’s going on. So glad you had a lovely respite. If in LA…. you have a place to stay. 😉 Yes, losing a brother would feel like a missing piece. And I can totally relate to him knowing what buttons to push due to what he knew about you. The N in my life talked a lot about “love,” but it was just that – talk. Thinking back now at some of the things he said, it’s quite comical and all very illogical.
Sending texts takes zero effort. It’s like putting a hook in the water and then waiting for the fish to bite. I’ve likened this before to “catch and release.” They just want to know that you’re still willing to “bite.”
Stay strong and know that there will come a day when all that you went through will seem downright crazy. You’ll know because you’ll have moved on and it WILL make you smile. Always, Jan

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339. lesley - May 11, 2013

Hey Viv and Frida and all,

No slippage….!

Viv,if you knew how many times I’d wished I’d been the woman who left in the middle of the night…? She retained so much dignity and power for doing so. No reaction kills a somatic Narc?It is their kryptonite, as Jan often says?
My search for explanations,anger,confusion….just didn’t compare.
I remember clearly when I confronted him that his face became frozen(Kid with hand in cookie jar?)…he said nothing,stared ahead and waited for his mask to readjust itself?
Our reactions are just an expense of energy. If you react/reply then you’ve turned yourself into human fuel supply….lol!
Frida, I’m not sure if I shared on this forum that two days before New Years last year I got a text from the Narc…it read…’ I am just looking at something that reminded me of you/us?’
I deleted it… For a moment I let myself wonder if he was looking at a poem,a picture or watching a film we’d both liked….
For a moment I considered sending back a smart reply ‘Oh are you looking at the poor new woman you’re pretending to be in a relationship with- whilst denigrating her by cheating on the side?’

Ultimately I just let it stay deleted…and in a day or two felt much better..
I know that these days I think of him much less and if I do… I must confess to sometimes laughing out loud at his antics!
After you come down the other side of the awful Narc ‘mountain’…there is true comedy in how they behave.
They are also strikingly similar…which is especially satisfying and comedic….when you consider how they all think they are ‘special’,’one off’,’your soulmate’….!!!!!

Have a great weekend…
Les

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frida - May 14, 2013

les and jan and vivi,

thanks again! yes, stayin strong on NC despite tempting voices from the dark corners of myself made me definately feel more empowered..i even felt kinda elated yesterday and my bff was like “i´m proud to annouce the return of cool frida”…haha.. yet i still can´t laugh out at his antics. however i found a series of pics of the N when springcleaning my harddrive. for a nanosec my heart jumped but then i looked and was like..so THAT is what turned you into a lump of pain, need and madness? THAT? he´s not even that handsome, acutally, he looks pathetic..peter pan reloaded..YAWN! delete.
i´m positive, with a bit of more healing and further real growth within myself, i´ll be even able to run into him and not blink an eye..so soon, going out dancing again won´t be spoiled by N-angst 😉
or as vivi so vividly would say: HA! 🙂
thanks for the LA offer, jan! at least, next time i´m over i hope we´ll make it for a drink and a chat! hope y´all have a good one! cheers, frida

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340. Diana - August 29, 2017

This was very very helpful
You just told me everything that I’m experiencing with my husband ,

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341. Walt - July 8, 2018

Wow. I’m not the only one who was duped. I’m an 78 year old widower. I met my dream woman who was 68. She was beautiful and charming. She was everything I was seeking. She was fun to be with but expensive. No matter I could well afford her. Soon the red flags started to appear. I ignored them. . Soon she became crazy exhibiting all the characteristics of a full blown narcissist. There was no closure with her. I finally licked my wounds and recovered my pride and left. Fortunately for me a found a kind hearted woman and pushed my narcissistic ex out of my life. I’m wiser and more discerning. I won’t let that happen again.

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